Odd Position?

[mjmannella]

Why is Dr. Mario one of the last characters on the tier list? Shouldn't he be neck-in-neck with Mario, prime? Sure he's slower and less vertical, but more power can go a long way. > ,personally.

 

[Dobbston]

Why is Dr. Mario one of the last characters on the tier list? Shouldn't he be neck-in-neck with Mario, prime? Sure he's slower and less vertical, but more power can go a long way.

Wavedashing let Dr. Mario abuse his moveset in Melee and get around his poor mobility, now he no longer has that option. I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Mario ends up going up but his poor mobility hurts him the most when his opponent forces a whiff and when attempting to punish a whiff.

 

[Drexel]

There are other differences between the two. Here's most of them:

-Doc is slower on the ground, lower jump height and more power. He doesn't have a true meteor smash like Mario so he more often than not he needs to rack up damage before he can KO. Mario on the other hand has his Fair which can KO very early if the meteor smash lands. Plus Mario's better vertical recovery bodes better against characters with attacks that send him flying horizontally like Fox's and Jigglypuff's DSmash and that bodes him a little better off in these certain matchups.

-Projectiles, USpecials, DSpecials and DThrows. This is where a lot of the key differences between the two characters lie. Doc does have the better projectile over Mario with those ever-present pills, Doc also in my opinion has the better USpecial as it is such an awesome OOS punish as well as a finishing edgeguarding blow. The DSpecials between them in the Tornado and the FLUDD are both very good and are about equal but the DThrow is the difference maker in Mario's favor. Mario's Dthrow is ridiculous as to what it can be followed up by even up into the mid-high percents. Doc's Dthrow has more KB than Mario's and that means it gets tougher at higher percents to land strings.

However as Mario seems to be overall the better character, Doc by no means is one of the worst characters in the game, he has a lot of unsung potential I feel and I think he belongs comfortably in the mid tier, not in the low tier. He still has those quick aerials and can actually mix up his approach quite well I feel by using the pills effectively.

 

[mjmannella]

I fell exactly the same way. I wish more people knew about the potential of the doctor, but everyone seems him as a failure of Mario. I tend to use him as a surprise main because he's so underused, nobody knows what to do when he shows up!

Also, if anyone's curious about my mains, here they are:

Primary:
Secondary:

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[Braydon]

I fell exactly the same way. I wish more people knew about the potential of the doctor, but everyone seems him as a failure of Mario. I tend to use him as a surprise main because he's so underused, nobody knows what to do when he shows up!

Dr mario is one of the worst options because he is almost he same as mario but is worse, the power is only a small amount, less than 10%, not near enough to make up for his speed and recovery, in any match up mario is preferable to doc, so there's no reason to use him.

 

[mjmannella]

I don't mean to be rude, but I've won a few 1-on-1 matches online. Also, I never shield, so you can see how competitive I am.

And yes. I'm 100% serious that Dr. Mario can beat Rosalina.

Also, just because. >.

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[Dobbston]

OP stated their opinion and that's fine but there's not really any more to be said. Dr. Mario isn't the worst character but he's got drawbacks and there aren't really any game mechanics for him to exploit to get around those drawbacks.

 

[Anomilus]

...what?

Anyway, while Doc is definitely not the worst in the game, he's...pretty terrible, especially compared to Mario. Doc's mobility is poor compared to the above-average speed of Mario, and it really hurts him. Doc's dthrow combos are more unreliable thanks to higher KB on the down throw, and his recovery options are awful. It's hard to get any height at all with Dr. Tornado, his up special doesn't go as far as Mario's (It is a lot more powerful though), and his cape doesn't stall in the air like Mario's does. In addition, his new upsmash has even less KO power than before thanks to the latest patch. And with wavedashing gone, Dr. Mario has lost a lot since Melee as a user before me has already pointed out.
The minor increase in power is barely enough to justify the speed and recovery of Dr. Mario.
I honestly don't think there's any reason to play default Dr. Mario over Mario in Smash 4, other than hipster cred.

Dr. Mario with customs though? That's a whole other story

Here's the burning question: Based on the way you just addressed Doc's weaknesses, how in the heck is his customs "a whole other story"? Better recovery and more gimp-effective cape or versatile decent KO option... and? Doc's sets of Neutral and Up B have their pros and cons and aren't direct upgrades. Ultimately the player still has to contend with the rest of Doc's moves and stats. His mobility doesn't improve, his D-Throw still has unoptimal KB, cape doesn't stall, Up Smash doesn't KO as early as it did before...

...But "That's a whole other story "

...

Perhaps the issue is that you, and many others, are overstating Doc's weak points and not giving him enough credit where he does shine. One reason why is Doc is looked down upon right from the get-go by being directly compared to Mario instead of considering him as his own character. Instead it's always "especially compared to Mario".

Basically, Doc not having Mario's mobility and string capabilities become his defining points first, then Doc's unique shortcomings are emphasized on top of the comparison. Next, his unique good points are scoffed off or ignored because the Mario comparison becomes the primary point of analysis. And finally, the icing on the cake: misconceptions of Doc's abilities. It's the most frustrating thing to see just how much junk can be tossed out there and completely accepted because Doc is a lost cause in the minds of a general public that never gave him a chance in the first place.

And threads like this don't help at all. Even misconceptions that are pro-Doc are bad. He needs to be given a fair shake and better representation, by people who actually know what they're doing AND know what they're talking about. People who won't try to play Doc like Mario and write him off when they inevitably fail.

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[mjmannella]

I've actually been quite successful using the Doc. Even in 1-on-1, as stated earlier, so I get and understanding of his play style. The downside is, I'm not competitive at all, since I never shield or grab. All out attacking for me. To assist on elaboration, the Mario's both have 2 recovery options. Their jump punches and their cape/tornado. Doc also does one better and can use his tornado to combo and even K.O. unsuspecting players. But, what do I know.

 

[Dobbston]

Dr. Mario's character design isn't much different from melee but without wavedashing it's pretty hard to stay on an opponent.

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[mjmannella]

I just find those two things too complex for my playing style. Shielding has to be to exact the defend an on-coming attack, Grabbing never does much for me. I mean, if I slip one of my fingers on a shoulder button, I'll use it. So, you are fully right to say my fighting style is comparable to on Jungle Japes. Also another hint in my lack of competitiveness is that I've never played Project M and refuse to for my own personal reasons.

 

[Kisatamura]

From what I've observed from the Mario boards, some of the Marios there switch to Doc for specific matchups where killing is a must, or edgeguarding is more valuable (Where Doc shines).

Either way, I agree with @ Anomilus has stated. We've had this issue in the Doc boards for a long time since most people tend to compare Mario and Doc together, especially since Mario has gotten much better in this game. Doc has his own different tools compared to Mario like Tornado edgeguarding, Doc's jab lifting the opponent and Mario's not, and more if you observe. And yes, mobility is a disadvantage. Edgeguarding and killing is an advantage for Doc. If you want more, then check out the various boards here because this topic gets brought up way too many times. Also for the record USmash kills earlier horizontally now and can setup attacks if you use it from behind. Thanks.

Here's something. The game's been out for a while, and I'm pretty sure outside of new players, people have gotten used to the differences between Mario and Doc to know that Doc is slower, Mario is faster and more combo oriented. This is something that's been here ever since Melee. To say using Doc as a hipster cred is incredibly flawed. If that were the case then I would say people use Mario because he's one of the stronger characters in the game, but I don't since Mario has his own flaws. Besides, Doc has different tools like UpB so why would using him be an example of being a hipster? Dr. Tornado doesn't count because it has a different use in this game.

To answer your question though TC, most people will say Doc is lower than Mario, but most people don't realize that Doc has some pretty quick attacks like the majority of his ground attacks, good aerial attacks like bair and Doc can edgeguard really well with Dr. Tornado. Essentially, unsung potential here. Tiers shouldn't really matter too much here in the current meta since the game's relatively balanced, and we do have a couple people here who use Doc in tourneys, irregardless of where he stands on the tier list. Just have fun playing Mario in a doctor's coat

/rant

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[mjmannella]

Yes he is! As it turns out being out of a smash bros. game can put some pounds on you! lol. Not sure how much though...

 

[Anomilus]

Yes he is! As it turns out being out of a smash bros. game can put some pounds on you! lol. Not sure how much though...

No he isn't! This is the misconception issue I'm talking about. Please do some research before answering such questions.

...Especially you @ Zegend . You ask me to elaborate on Doc's unique points, but you still didn't know Doc's weight compared to Mario. Don't you think something's wrong here? You're focusing on Doc's disadvantages and don't seem to know or understand any advantages he has outside of being strong and having good customs. Then you try to pull the missing info out of somebody else afterward instead of doing the research. This is the exact issue that I'm compelled to speak against!

It is imperative to look at each and every character as an individual FIRST before making comparisons to other characters, no matter how similar. Cases like Pit and Dark Pit where it's almost unnecessary to examine each character individually are exceptions, not the norm.

However it is even more imperative that people actually do their homework before openly discussing things they don't actually understand. It's one thing to discuss in order to gain more insight. It's another thing to discuss as if one has insight when they actually do not.

In any case...

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

Both have a Weight Ranking of 98.

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[Godzillionaire]

He's basically like Ganondorf, slow and not very mobile but packs a hard punch and can punish extremely well. Though Doc trades off a bit of raw power for some trick moves, like cape, but he's still a powerhouse who's main strategy is to wait for an opening and bust the opponent's head.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I don't know every detail about Dr. Mario, but that does not reduce the legitimacy of my complaints at all. You're using the fact that I didn't know his exact weight to dismiss my entire argument completely...smh
Not researching the weights was a stupid move. But the least you could do is actually respond to my argument, bro


But I am trying to learn more, that's why I asked you about all those "unique good points" you were hyping me up about earlier in the thread. I'm still waiting on those, by the way...

I have to agree with @ Anomilus . You didn't just state your complaints (some of which are immaterial, some of which aren't true). You listed the disadvantages of Doc, treated him like a carbon copy of Mario but worse, ignored his strengths and used that to conclude that he's worse then Mario. You also overrated Mario in some aspects. I will go over each of your posts in this thread and respond to each one. I implore people to stop posting these kinds of threads as they are unproductive and misleading.

...what?

Anyway, while Doc is definitely not the worst in the game, he's...pretty terrible, especially compared to Mario. Doc's mobility is poor compared to the above-average speed of Mario, and it really hurts him. Doc's dthrow combos are more unreliable thanks to higher KB on the down throw, and his recovery options are awful. It's hard to get any height at all with Dr. Tornado, his up special doesn't go as far as Mario's (It is a lot more powerful though), and his cape doesn't stall in the air like Mario's does. In addition, his new upsmash has even less KO power than before thanks to the latest patch. And with wavedashing gone, Dr. Mario has lost a lot since Melee as a user before me has already pointed out.
The minor increase in power is barely enough to justify the speed and recovery of Dr. Mario.
I honestly don't think there's any reason to play default Dr. Mario over Mario in Smash 4, other than hipster cred.

Dr. Mario with customs though? That's a whole other story

How is it more unreliable when you can consistently get Down Throw to Up Air at most percentages on most characters? You can even do Down Throw to Up Tilt at certain percentages (you could also do Down Throw to Up Smash but for some reason, I can't get it to work after the patch. Might just be me).

Most people forget that you can recover horizontally with Tornado, and you get pretty decent (not great) distance with it. The height that he gets from an aerial Dr. Tornado is based on his jump momentum (though it's not as silly as Luigi Cyclone which depends on jumping or intense button mashing). Dr. Tornado sideways ---> Double Jump ----> Up-B

Mario's Cape isn't great at stalling in this game. It doesn't lift you like it does in other games. The fact that Doc's Sheet doesn't stall isn't that big of a deal.

Up Smash can still kill early sideways and it allows you to chase opponents more easily. It's not completely nerfed.

It's not the increase in power (though it helps). It's the increase in kill options (and I'm talking about good kill options, like B-Air, Up-B and Dr. Tornado. Up Tilt might be worth mentioning since it kills earlier than expected for a tilt).

Doc with Customs isn't that much better. Fast Pills are arguably more useful than Soaring Tornado (which trades versatility for extreme vertical distance, windboxes and an insanely strong, large, active hitbox), as they give Doc some long range options.

Uhh, that sounds pretty good to me actually. That's like two problems fixed

That was sarcasm, but Dr. Mario does get a whole lot more fun with customs. I just didn't want my post to sound 100% anti-Doc, aheh

duh, he's a clone.

And so they should be! It's a crime how many disadvantages Dr. Mario has compared to Mario, you should recognise that and it's something that should be addressed

Care to elaborate on these "unique good points"?

His point is that it's not as straightforward as Mario but worse or Mario but stronger and slower. You can't just compare the two like that, as their stat differences make them fundamentally different characters.

Have you seen all the Mario vs Dr. Mario threads? How many of them put Doc in a favourable light? How many of them actually talk about Doc's positive traits?

By the way, Mario has some pretty important weaknesses too. You cannot ignore his lack of KO moves, his low damage output, his lack of consistent combos off of Down Throw (he has combos, but they are percent specific and character specific), his range and his mediocre recovery. Not saying Mario is bad, but if you just list the negatives, then you would come to the conclusion that Mario isn't that great.

@ mjmannella , I'm not saying you can never find success with the Doc, I'm just saying it's harder to find success with him than most other characters. And yeah, the Tornado is really fun, but if Doc's tornado was as mobile as Luigi's, and had Luigi's dair spike, I'd definitely play Doc a lot more than I am currently. Also how are you doing combos with the tornado if you aren't grabbing whatsoever?
Unrelated, but you should probably get into the habit of using shield and grabs though. Not using them is like playing Rock Paper Scissors, but refusing to use Paper and Scissors, just because you think Rock is the best.

What do you mean by mobile? Luigi Cyclone goes a longer distance, but it is not really more mobile. You are committed to one direction for the most part.

Why the obsession with spikes? Doc doesn't need his Down Air to spike. If Down Air could KO horizontally, that would be cool.

wouldn't you agree that FLUDD and the meteor fair are also good at edgeguarding? also does Dr. Tornado semi-spike like Luigi's tornado?

But that is the reason people use him, lol. People don't use him because they love Mario as a character, they use him because he's good, or because they find him fun to play

Although, I do very much agree with this. Until we get more balance patches that may shake up the meta, just play who you want, OP. I was just trying to point out some of the disadvantages Doc has compared to his doctorate-less alter ego. In the end, it comes down to the player, to be honest. Tier lists are dumb when the game hasn't even been out for a year yet, just ignore them and play the character you have most fun with.

btw, is Doc heavier than Mario? If so, by how much?

I don't think most people would agree that Mario's Forward Air is good for edgeguarding. Slow and hard to sweetspot. FLUDD is good, but one weakness of it is that it cannot edgeguard low, whereas Dr. Tornado, while riskier, can potentially edgeguard anywhere.

Dr. Tornado can semi-spike, but it's really inconsistent. Having said that, hitting with the move will usually kill (unless you hit the opponent towards the stage).

Not really. Some people just like Mario and his games. And the other two reasons are not mutually exclusive. You can play a character because you find them fun and because they are good.

No, they have the same weight.

As far as unique points go, Dr. Tornado is a versatile tool (pressure, edgeguarding, recovery, punishing rolls and spot dodges and challenging things due to its' priority), Up-B is probably the best Out of Shield Option in the game due to its' speed, its' damage and knockback, it's fairly large sweetspot hitbox and its' ability to be reversed (which makes it less punishable), his string potential is low but his combos are damaging and consistent across most percentages and characters, his Down Air is a really active attack with a lot of hitboxes (including a landing hitbox) that can be used as a get me off option, and his jab can set up goofy frame traps into Up B on floaty characters.

If anyone else has anything else to add or wants to close the thread, go ahead.

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Thank you. Someone who actually did what I asked instead of relying on fallacies to dismiss my argument.
I've been looking a lot into Dr. Mario since this thread, he's pretty fun but I'm not dropping Mario for him. Might play him in custom matches, though.

which ones

Yes, but it's something. I feel Dr. Mario would really benefit from something little like that.

I agree, I just think he's better than Dr. Mario, if you haven't already noticed lol

Thanks.

Yes, someone please close this mess of a thread

He didn't use fallacies. He just stated that a lot of the stuff you said was out of ignorance and the fact that you asked about his weight strongly hints at it. I suggest you go through the character boards before making statements like that.

Which ones? The point about the cape not stalling (not that problematic unless you want to Down-B or Up-B but get Side-B instead. This applies to Mario as well), the point about his Up Smash being weaker (not that much weaker), and the point about his Down Throw being less reliable (which it really isn't for the reasons given above). Other points include wanting Dair to spike (which I don't think will help him that much. Horizontal KOs are more important to be honest).

He wouldn't benefit from it that much, if it were implemented like Mario's anyway. Makes it easier to cape off stage without the stall.

I noticed, I just disagree. I think both characters are decent, probably around the same level of effectiveness. Mario is more popular in tournament now because he has more noticeable strengths. Hopefully Doc will catch up or Mario will go down or both. It happened in Melee, and from the looks of it, Doc and Mario might be around the same spot on the Melee list soon, under Luigi, Pikachu, Yoshi and Samus(?).

Custom Tiers might be different.

 

[Anomilus]

Thank you. Someone who actually did what I asked instead of relying on fallacies to dismiss my argument.
I've been looking a lot into Dr. Mario since this thread, he's pretty fun but I'm not dropping Mario for him. Might play him in custom matches, though.

which ones

Yes, but it's something. I feel Dr. Mario would really benefit from something little like that.

I agree, I just think he's better than Dr. Mario, if you haven't already noticed lol

Thanks.

Yes, someone please close this mess of a thread

*ahem*

You misinterpreted what I was addressing. I made no attempts to disprove the legitimacy of your posts. Where did I say that anything you said was wrong? The only thing I addressed as wrong was mjmannella's replay that Doc was heavier than Mario. With you, I only mentioned the weight as an example of your lack of knowledge on Doc, not a proof against your argument. It was for the sake of my point, not for the sake of dismissing your points. I mean I wasn't wrong was I? The weight thing wasn't the only thing you didn't know, right??

What I was addressing was your overemphasizing Doc's disadvantages, partly due to focusing too much on what he lacked that Mario has, and giving no attention to any of Doc's good points. It's like only reading half of a story and forming a conclusion based on that.

What I wanted was for you to actually try for yourself to see the good in Doc. Actually do the research by looking up already-existing information instead of asking somebody else. He's not exactly a mystery. He's just under-appreciated. But EightSixty-Four did a pretty good job informing you anyway, so there.

But I do believe learning to acquire info from available sources outside of direct inquiry from an individual is an ability any Smash player should exercise. Especially if they're compelled to pass on knowledge to other people. It's just plain good for ya. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Also I didn't exactly have time to address your post when I first saw it. Can't be helped.

 

[Zegend]

qwertyuiop

 

[mjmannella]

I guess it was just a myth. All I could find is that dr. Mario is lighter than he was in Melee.

 

[BloodL10N]

Can people please stop comparing Mario to Dr. Mario, they're semi-clones not full clones.

If you try to play Doc like you play Mario you get bodied, they're two different entities. I have way more results with Doc than I ever have with Mario, all of the matches I've played in tournaments have been won by Doc. I don't like the whole, "such-and-such move has less optimal KB, or kill potential."

You have to play the character to his strengths, even Rosaluma after a ton of practice is doable. While sure he lacks his wavedashing from Melee it's not what tears him down, he has one of the best possible B moves in the game, his tornado although not as good as Luigi's in some cases, it's still a great move.

Just play the character you're comfortable with, even if he's not high on the "tier-list", this game is definitely not the tier-list that Melee is but that's my 5 cents.

All of this is just my opinion I go to tournaments two times every month (unranked) and the top characters have been:
1st , 2nd , 3rd , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th , 8th

But this has been my experience with the top 8 for Smash 4.