Official Washington Melee thread

[Eggz]

Discuss and organize Washington Melee here.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

A group with dedicated players who will resurrect their Melee communities by analyzing and destroying bad stigmas about melee players, problems new players experience, and help to teach their communities.

Join if you love melee enough to want to become nationally competitive. I'm going to be teaching everyone possible how to get good enough to win a tournament, best their friends, and best complete strangers with reputation.

I want to bring Melee back to frequent national attention.

Keep in mind
-When playing "randoms", don't hold an elitist mentality, and teach them as much as possible. They hopefully love the game like you do. Ask if they want you to give them tips, and if they do, tell them everything you can.
-Don't ever john if you lose. It makes you seem like a douche, which we don't want.
-Money matching emulates tournament pressure the best, so if you want to improve most, try doing money matches at amounts where you care if you lose.

this is awesome

seriously, i wish everyone did this. melee would be back in no time.

 

[Grunt]

yaaaaaaaaaaaay WA!

 

[The_Loki]

are there any established recurring smashfests in WWA?

If there are; where and when are they?

 

[Kira-]

this is awesome

seriously, i wish everyone did this. melee would be back in no time.

qft

-Money matching emulates tournament pressure the best, so if you want to improve most, try doing money matches at amounts where you care if you lose.


raaaape


almost makes me wish i lived in WA

 

[ILoveRice]

I'm going to be teaching everyone possible how to get good enough to win a tournament, best their friends, and best complete strangers with reputation.​

[/QUOTE]

Are you only going to help us if we MM you till we lose all our money :o

 

[Eggz]

$5 is just a special long set thats a training session. I take adderal so i can focus on teaching, and its expensive. i make no profit from this.

are there any established recurring smashfests in WWA?

If there are; where and when are they?

UW has them every friday or so, you can contact toph to ask about them. 808-352-1086

 

[brdy_]

This should be the new WA community thread, if it's not already.

 

[Eggz]

It is now. >=]

 

[joeplicate]

good **** WA

socal has a pretty good crop of up-and-coming players, too
gotta show respect to those arcadians son

 

[Touk]

"-When playing "randoms", don't hold an elitist mentality, and teach them as much as possible. They hopefully love the game like you do. Ask if they want you to give them tips, and if they do, tell them everything you can."

I find this hard, how am I supposed to tell some random to develop better mindgames? Technicality is one thing, but how do you tell someone to read another player better?

 

[debaser]

"-When playing "randoms", don't hold an elitist mentality, and teach them as much as possible. They hopefully love the game like you do. Ask if they want you to give them tips, and if they do, tell them everything you can."

I find this hard, how am I supposed to tell some random to develop better mindgames? Technicality is one thing, but how do you tell someone to read another player better?

you can't, that comes only with experience. just don't be a cold ****.

 

[Touk]

you can't, that comes only with experience. just don't be a cold ****.

So if they are technically good, they shffl, they chain, edgehog, etc. What am I supposed to tell them other than "you're really good but you should keep playing", "follow up combos better?" Without coming off as an A S S H O L E?

 

[Grunt]

keep playing sounds about right.

 

[joeplicate]

more like give better advice

as in NOT "get more mindgaemz"

 

[Touk]

more like give better advice

as in NOT "get more mindgaemz"

How can you give better advice when they have the technical S H I T down? I mean I am down for telling them to play more and what not but how do you tell someone to get better mindgames? I ask this because I run into a lot of players that from a technical perspective do everything right but lack the ability to read opponents.

 

[R00R]

$5 is just a special long set thats a training session. I take adderal so i can focus on teaching, and its expensive. i make no profit from this.


UW has them every friday or so, you can contact toph to ask about them. 808-352-1086

playing smash on adderal = playing baseball on steroids

cerealy

my tech skill gets so much better when Im on it

I feel likes its an unfair advantage if you use in tournaments

 

[Touk]

Substances should be banned from melee... unless it's the chronic... and you let me hit it.

 

[Kouryuu]

There is ALWAYS room to improve.

There is more to tech skill than just shffl, chaingrab, combos etc. Tech skill also refers to SPACING(!), positioning, DI, etc. If they mis space, tell them. Observe their choice of attacks and make sure they don't waste any moves. There is so much to help with if a player isn't "good." Give them certain tips/strategies vs. whatever characters they need help with.

As far as mentality goes (aka mindgames), just take note if they fail to see repetition in your game. For example, tech in a certain direction over and over again until they punish you. If they don't, just comment on how they need to pay attention to where their opponents tech. Also, take note if they're playing patiently/aggressively when they shouldn't. You can help a person improve their mentality just like you can help them improve their technical abilities.

 

[Touk]

There is ALWAYS room to improve.

There is more to tech skill than just shffl, chaingrab, combos etc. Tech skill also refers to SPACING(!), positioning, DI, etc. If they mis space, tell them. Observe their choice of attacks and make sure they don't waste any moves. There is so much to help with if a player isn't "good." Give them certain tips/strategies vs. whatever characters they need help with.

As far as mentality goes (aka mindgames), just take note if they fail to see repetition in your game. For example, tech in a certain direction over and over again until they punish you. If they don't, just comment on how they need to pay attention to where their opponents tech. Also, take note if they're playing patiently/aggressively when they shouldn't. You can help a person improve their mentality just like you can help them improve their technical abilities.

This is a good comment. I put in "etc" so I wouldn't have to list the rest of the things you named. Here's the thing that gets me though, if I tech a certain direction and they don't punish me for it should I have to do it over and over and risk getting punished if it does finally get noticed?

I also agree with you in saying that there is always room for improvement, but in terms of technical skill, it is finite. It runs on frames and can be calculated. Mindgames are completely different, as there is always room to improve because your mindgames depend not only on character and stage but you & also who you are playing against. I think mindgames isn't something you can really teach someone but something that is either inherent (some people can just see it) or learned through experience. So when I play someone and I see that their spacing is really good and they can technically perform well but cannot mindgame me or another player into a situation where such technical skill would be most useful (in the form of a combo or death). What am I to say them?

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Dude, mindgames don't exist except for a couple of exceptions. What you think are mindgames is really just understanding the game. So I'd advise for you to get a better understanding of the game and not refer to everything as mindgames. Since you don't know the game inside and out, you shouldn't be giving advice...

 

[Syler]

Hey eggz you should put me up there as a contact person i have deep ties to yelm/olympia/lacey and im living in the lakewood/tacoma area so i can take care of pretty much that region as far as trying ot get more smashers in the community invovled o_0

 

[debaser]

bart told me to watch how I tech and roll. After that I noticed I tech with a pretty consistent pattern and get punished for it a lot. so now I am consciously trying to fix that and it is helping.

specific, small things help players like me a lot. now that I have tech skill down to the point where I don't need to focus on it, I just have a lot of holes in my game play. it really helps when people point out how they are able to **** me. even if it's sort of vague like "too aggressive". smash is hard to get better at after a while so don't expect advice to kick in automatically.

 

[Touk]

Dude, mindgames don't exist except for a couple of exceptions. What you think are mindgames is really just understanding the game. So I'd advise for you to get a better understanding of the game and not refer to everything as mindgames. Since you don't know the game inside and out, you shouldn't be giving advice...

I am not giving advice, I'm asking for it. But according to the original post, if I beat someone, I should tell them or show them how to be better and the things to work on. I was asking advice as to what to say given the set of conditions I presented.

I also just fundamentally disagree with your idea that "mindgames" don't really exist "except for a couple of exceptions". If that were the case, I feel that counter picking characters would be more frequent. I suppose I should ask by what you mean "understanding the game". What exactly are you talking about?

Debaser actually gave a good comment when he said "even if it's sort of vague like 'too aggressive' " I can actually understand that.

Inb4 people flooding asking for video examples.

 

[Grunt]

someone last tourney said I should Fsmash more.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Can you explain what a mindgame is?

If you don't know what to say, obviously he's not talking about you. If you don't know the game well enough to analyze different sections of someone's game, then it's kind of self-explanatory. Stop overthinking it.

 

[Kouryuu]

This is a good comment. I put in "etc" so I wouldn't have to list the rest of the things you named. Here's the thing that gets me though, if I tech a certain direction and they don't punish me for it should I have to do it over and over and risk getting punished if it does finally get noticed?

I also agree with you in saying that there is always room for improvement, but in terms of technical skill, it is finite. It runs on frames and can be calculated. Mindgames are completely different, as there is always room to improve because your mindgames depend not only on character and stage but you & also who you are playing against. I think mindgames isn't something you can really teach someone but something that is either inherent (some people can just see it) or learned through experience. So when I play someone and I see that their spacing is really good and they can technically perform well but cannot mindgame me or another player into a situation where such technical skill would be most useful (in the form of a combo or death). What am I to say them?

Can you be more vague? For one thing, I suggest you don't use the term "mindgame," especially since you're using the term for more than one definition (I hate the word mindgame lol). Be more specific.

Anyway, I'll say this one more time. You can always help a player play a smarter game. Just make note of all the little details. They WILL learn in due time. Some faster than others. Regardless, they will learn.

Another thing... the reason why beginners aren't that smart is because they don't see the game at a basic level and/or they don't recognize all the options in a certain situation. With that in mind, it doesn't make sense for someone to be technically adept at the basics and still be completely oblivious of the things that they or their opponents do (i.e. they are completely stupid). That's why they are beginners.

So, by helping them understand the game and improve their technical skills (no one is perfect, not even M2K), they will in turn become smarter players.

 

[Grunt]

A mindgame is not holding A when you pick Zelda.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Let's try not to condescend plz, myself included

 

[Touk]

"Mindgames cannot really be defined; there are infinite variables as to how mindgames work. It's more than just 'tricking your opponent into being where you want them'. It's an application of technical skill, mixed with predictions of how your opponent will react. It begins to be less of a prediction and more of a manipulation of your opponent. - -G-Regualte

 

[NeighborhoodP]

"Mindgames cannot really be defined

Cop-out.

If you can't define it, this conversation is pretty much over. Maybe someone with patience can continue it.

It's much simpler in the long-term and much more practical to say:

"Drephen ran right at him and faired above the Fox's head because he knew he would jump."

rather than

"****, Drephen mindgamed him with that slap son"

People really need to stop using mindgames. It's a vague buzzword, nothing more.

 

[Kouryuu]

^ pretty much

G-Reg is wrong. Plain and simple.

Mindgames IS just tricking your opponent into being where you want them to be or doing what you want them to do. Nothing more lol. The reason why I hate the term is because smashers (e.g. G reg) come up with such elaborate definitions for something that was meant to be so simple.

BTW, Mindgames is a universal term for many fighting games. It's not exclusive to Smash. So trust me when I say that G Reg is wrong.

 

[Grunt]

IF you break it up to Mind and game and look at each word in it's own context then we have...
MIND: obvious, the way you think.\
GAME: a manipulation of a person to abide by a certain train of thought or rules in order to achieve a specific outcome.
when put this way, mindgames is simply to make your opponent think in a certain way. if you say mindgames is "tricking your opponent" you're somewhat right, but that's only if it ends up in your favor. Any specific situation during a round of melee could be a time where you want your opponent to think (and hopefully act) a certain way, but this can be turned against you if they expect you to want them to act accordingly and would end up doing something different than you wanted in order to end it in their favor. And if you suspect this to be true, you could act differently than they wanted and end it in your favor and so on and so on.
really, mindgames happen every single moment and shouldn't even be named since it just defines your prediction or manipulation ability. people like to say "wow great mindgames" on a certain person or clip, but really what they're doing takes no more manipulation or prediction than landing a Dthrow-Fair combo or something, but it usually just looks a lot cooler or they "mindgame" so much they **** their opponent, which is just a problem with their opponent having a bad day or really being that much worse.

Mindgames is stupidly overused. if you can't tell someone what they did wrong in a match then you should probably record it and have someone else tell them later.

 

[Touk]

Old but good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UbQ-gpOMB0

As always when the debate about "mindgames" comes up, such arguments will always be brought up. I understand all the points you guys are making and they are great- but I still feel like it is my failure in articulating what "mindgames" are. So I will stop talking about them to stop this thread from either turning to a flame war/ ending up 2453757 pages long.

 

[Eggz]

edit: P ily

Adderal isn't that bad when you have a horrible attention span anyway. It hasn't allowed me to do anything I couldn't already do, it just lets me focus for longer periods of time and be able to enjoy friendlies and money matches.

I wrote a blog about "mindgames" a while back, I'll post it here. It should pretty much elaborate for you, Touk. Deep smash theory, efficiency, patterns, and unbeatable setups could be summed up as mindgames, but heres this anyway.

Mindgames, what are they?​

They are nothing but lies and fables made up by the Man to oppress the people. But seriously Im sick of hearing it every other sentence, the usage of the word is overly saturated and doesnt even mean anything. In other sports or competive events they have intangibles in smash everything is mindgames this mindgames that.

And I love all the psuedo analysts that can see the "mindgames" or lack off, by watching a couple of videos. Also it seems others use these "mindgames" as a blanket of comfort against their lack of technical(another annoying word) ability.

In short I think anytime the word mindgame(s) is used it should be substitued with some other dummy word(like the gay wii thing). This will not solve anything as the context will still be the same but it would be somewhat amusing.

In closing as the late rick james, parodied by chappelle, would say **** YO' MINDGAMES!!

Eggz Sonic has so many Mind game techs. Talking has nothing to do with them LoL.
Spin Dash Cancels, Pivot Smashes, Aerial Spin Dash cancel to drag. The advanced stuff..That wasn't in this vid =/

Common conception of the term​

Eggz says:
Hey, I am writing a blog on "mind games". I felt I should ask some people what their interpretation of the term is and if they have an example of good "mind games" if they could share it?


Vista™ says:
Things that trick your opponent. Running past the opponent is the best example I can come up with. Rohins blatently uses that. Totally psyches the other guy out.
(vista)
Valdens says:
I more or less viewed it as any tactic, be it in real life or game, that's meant to throw off your opponents playstyle by doing something to either confuse or distract them. I do what I do or did consider smash mindgames with gnw, where I just spam my smash attacks trying to trick people into punishing the lag on them, which is non existant.
(valdens)
Aiko says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3gitYccuY
Here is a video of bombsoldier and jing (obviously bombsoldier is falco)
If you watch at 2:14 you can see fox has a choice of either firefoxing to the ledge or to the stage. With bombsoldier already hogging the ledge, the most obvious choice would be for fox to fly to the stage and that is what bombsoldier thinks. Bombsoldier then proceeds to ledgehop bair only to find that jing flies to the ledge.
mindgames in action.
(one of the many posts identifying single circumstances as mindgames found in the "mindgames dont exist" thread on SWF. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=94550)

The problem with these conceptions is that they identify single circumstances as mindgames.

Vista's example is of something that will only work the first time or two until it becomes expected and punishable. It is not a reaction or provocation to any tactic, just a standard trick that will work a couple times until becoming useless.

Valdens' example is of something that will only work on people who have never fought his G&W. If you just watch his smash attacks before approaching blindly, you'll realize the range and lack of lag on his attacks and be able to respond appropriately.

Aiko's example is of a single circumstance of something that requires pattern recognition to punish reliably. It is possible that bombsoldier and jing play together often, and Jing knows Bombsoldier's common responses well. However this match alone and this circumstance alone do not prove "mindgames". It just proves that bombsoldier was not expecting that option. Doing what is not expected is not always "mindgames" in its optimum form, it is simply a trick.

A single trick will not keep your opponent guessing. It is a multitude of deceptions that ultimately cripple the opponent's mind, cloud his clarity, and decimate his confidence in his tactics.

Higher conception of the term​

Eggz says:
Hey, I am writing a blog on "mind games". I felt I should ask some people what their interpretation of the term is and if they have an example of good "mind games" if they could share it?

GovermentUser09 says:
Mindgames is just a term that people use to cover the grounds of multiple things you can do to distract or manipulate your opponent. There are "mindgames" in the game where you would do one move to try and read your opponent and place him where you want, thus punishing him afterwards. Then there are mindgames which are my personal favorite, for example singing "My humps" by fergie while crawling to the edge and then teetering.
(sinister.doc)
Ric says:
Theres a misconception where people take the word mindgames and focus on the techniques rather than the opponent.
People will just repeat set moves or patterns thinking it's a "mindgame" when it is triggering a behavior you can punish, which is the real mind game.
(raging ric rohins)
Teddy says:
Mind games is following up a falcon punch with a taunt and then another falcon punch. Thats mind games.
But seriously, the act of predicting your opponents behavior, and thusly influencing it to your advantage, and the simultaneous ability to recognize the opponent's attempts at the same thing and turn a disadvantageous situation into an advantageous one
(Bladewise LOL.)

These responses are exceedingly more vague than the previous 3. There are no specific instances, no specific "mind game techniques", no specific anything. Mind games are just that. A vague conduit for channeling ****.

Darin even included a verbal technique, where he sang my humps while crawling around with ZeroSuitSamus in order to frustrate his opponent with his nonchalant attitude toward a match he was actually taking quite seriously.

Mindgames by definition​

The truth
The definition of a mind game from dictionary.com:
mind games –plural noun Often, mind game. psychological manipulation or strategy, used esp. to gain advantage or to intimidate.

Psychological manipulation. Provoke your opponent to do something and punish it.
This could include changing their mindset to something that would prevent them from thinking with cloudless thought, such as talking to them to distract them, doing things in game you know annoy them, thus infuriating them, smack talking to further anger them, in game feints to provoke a certain reaction, or any other number of things. Anything but a calm mind is one without perfect clarity.

Strategy. Have a solution and multiple backup solutions to everything.
Being able to provoke an opponents negative stimuli and punish it with optimum efficiency, while leaving yourself open minimally. Having as many possible solutions to problems in order to avoid patterns, and being able to recognize an opponents patterns. Higher levels of "mind game" play require that when an opponent catches on to a tactic that is destroying them, that you gauge approximately when they will switch their tactics to counter yours, and immediately have a counter of your own for their new tactic.

Conclusive points​

"Mind games" are a compound of psychological manipulation and strategy. Strategy is minimizing instances where you leave yourself open and having responses to all tactics, while psychological manipulation is increasing the frequency and maximizing upon situations where your opponent is susceptible (huge generalization). Both are done by pattern recognition, altering your opponents mindset, and not falling into patterns.

Your mind is a weapon, and your opponents mind is the target. Use your mind to destroy your opponents mind. Cause them to be angry, frustrate them by being loud and obnoxious, distract them by talking to them. Do what it takes to win. In the end, you may feel guilty, but you beat their mind with yours, and you are the one walking home with a fat wallet.

Solitary techniques cause you to fall into patterns, which in turn cause you to be *****, very hard. So next time you think about running back and forth three times, jumping twice, and fully charging a forward smash hoping they are going to run into it 6 times a match, think again.

 

[Eggz]

Hey eggz you should put me up there as a contact person i have deep ties to yelm/olympia/lacey and im living in the lakewood/tacoma area so i can take care of pretty much that region as far as trying ot get more smashers in the community invovled o_0

can i get your number? im only putting people up whos number i have

 

[Touk]

ggz on the post. Clowns to the left me, Jokers to the right, here I am.

 

[Eggz]

that songs so tight

i think it was wolfmother did a cover of it too. both are tyte. maybe its not wolfmother...lemme check. idk i cant find it, but someone did a cover.
stealers wheel version is megaman tho

 

[R00R]

edit: P ily

Adderal isn't that bad when you have a horrible attention span anyway. It hasn't allowed me to do anything I couldn't already do, it just lets me focus for longer periods of time and be able to enjoy friendlies and money matches.

Barry Bonds could always hit home runs, its just he wanted to do them all the time!

Just so you know, just because its called Adderall and its a prescription drug doesn't mean it isnt bad for you. Amphetamine are Amphetamine, Your just taking the a more socially acceptable form of SPEED. Im not try to preach, I took that **** last week for a midterm, but don't try to fool your self.

If there is anything I know a lot about, its drugs and smash. lol

 

[Eggz]

I've researched every drug I've ever done more thoroughly than you've researched anything in your life.

Thanks for your concern, btw, but I already know my ****.