Outsmarting Mother Brain

[Xygonn]

With all the people posting guides about Samus that I found lacking somewhat, I decided I'd post a guide myself. Constructive criticism welcomed. I'd like the guide to be pretty comprehensive.

Xygonn submitted a new guide:

Outsmarting Mother Brain - A deep dive into Samus' moveset

Introduction:
I am by no means the best Samus player out there. I really like playing as her though and have learned a lot about her to try to get better. This guide represents a condensed version of the knowledge I have gained about Samus.
First Things First - Let's Talk About General Stuff

Attributes:

Samus is a fairly unique character in smash. With a high weight (Tied 6th heaviest at 108 with Bowser Jr.), low fall speed (tied 6th lowest with...

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[DungeonMaster]

Nice guide Xygonn! Finally a guide with enough detail and obvious play experience that I can point a new player towards,

 

[Depth_]

Loved it. Keep up the good work.

 

[RoachCake]

Really nice work on this guide, Xygonn.

I'm going to be compiling all the knockdown percents for Jab 1 and F-tilt among other attacks (For CS tech chases) against the entire cast after the upcoming patch, so you'll be able to make the listed knockdown percents for Jab 1 and F-tilt more accurate for the entire cast once I finish.

You did a great job of going in depth for each move and provided good uses and points for all of them.
I will definitely recommend this guide to anyone interested in learning Samus.

 

[Xygonn]

Really nice work on this guide, Xygonn.

I'm going to be compiling all the knockdown percents for Jab 1 and F-tilt among other attacks (For CS tech chases) against the entire cast after the upcoming patch, so you'll be able to make the listed knockdown percents for Jab 1 and F-tilt more accurate for the entire cast once I finish.

You did a great job of going in depth for each move and provided good uses and points for all of them.
I will definitely recommend this guide to anyone interested in learning Samus.

Thanks to you and everyone else in the thread for the compliments and kind reviews. If you do notice any mistakes or anything I have overlooked please let me know. I'll try to keep the guide up to date with new stuff on the Samus boards.

I really couldn't have made the guide without all the info that has been posted to this board. FYI, in the Dabuz tier list we are garbage tier.

 

[Depth_]

Thanks to you and everyone else in the thread for the compliments and kind reviews. If you do notice any mistakes or anything I have overlooked please let me know. I'll try to keep the guide up to date with new stuff on the Samus boards.

I really couldn't have made the guide without all the info that has been posted to this board. FYI, in the Dabuz tier list we are garbage tier.

I'll enlighten him if he comes to CEO 2015

 

[Xygonn]

I'll enlighten him if he comes to CEO 2015

I'd love to see Samus win a big tournament! Good luck!

 

[Fluidityt]

I would talk about pivot grabs some in the guide, which it seemed absent from. Usually if someone fast hits my shield, and I can't grab out of shield, I'll just run away and then do a pivot grab if they follow in for a dash attack / grab of their own.

Especially if they are expecting a roll, and we don't roll, then they try to punish but get pivot grabbed. This obviously doesn't work if they use projectiles a lot, or spam aerial approaches.

Just something I do if I notice a pattern and get te reads.

 

[Xygonn]

I would talk about pivot grabs some in the guide, which it seemed absent from. Usually if someone fast hits my shield, and I can't grab out of shield, I'll just run away and then do a pivot grab if they follow in for a dash attack / grab of their own.

Especially if they are expecting a roll, and we don't roll, then they try to punish but get pivot grabbed. This obviously doesn't work if they use projectiles a lot, or spam aerial approaches.

Just something I do if I notice a pattern and get te reads.

Good point. I don't use pivot grab much, sounds like a bit of a hard read. Grab is so punishable. I'll put something in about pivots though. I pivot ftilt a lot.

 

[Fluidityt]

Good point. I don't use pivot grab much, sounds like a bit of a hard read. Grab is so punishable. I'll put something in about pivots though. I pivot ftilt a lot.

I usually get one or two pivot grabs in a set. I never really go for pivot tilts. Must be playstyle, or something subconscious. Patterns kind of form themselves and then I'm like "ok I can do a pivot grab now." I usually do them if I'm trailing in % and go defensive. Switching to tilts / non punishable moves conditions them, then the pgrab just kind of forms itself sometimes.

Hard to explain.

 

[Xygonn]

Updated the guide to include mewtwo aura sphere clanking CS and tanking super missile. Deleted Super missile -> CS combo at 0->50%

Edited to add some frame info on zair and fix an error that stated that zair doesn't stale.

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Patch 1.0.6 Confirmed Changes

Missiles go slightly faster, but the section on missiles is unchanged.
Dthrow knockback seems to be slightly less, waiting for data for any changes.

Ftilt has been buffed 1% in the final two boxes. Knockback increased to 30b/100g.

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Frame Data and Other Stuff

Thanks to Aerodrome's and others work at kuroganehammer.com I have filled in a few of the missing frame data spots and squared up some of the old frame data to match with what is at http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Samus

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[Zaprong]

Should be noted that Samus's down smash is actually pretty amazing on her back hit, which has really REALLY low vertical knockback and sends mostly horizontally a lot, which is great to get people out of you if you read the roll/kill at high %

EDIT: Also something good you can do with missiles, you can "Dash dance" to the opposite direction to the opponent and flick towards immediatly with side B to move while spamming super missiles, which is specially good against any character that is far away. You move a tiny bit while attacking to get brething room for Charging CS

Here (https://vine.co/v/eOx6jddP79E) Is what I mean

EDIT2: You should also mention that you shouldnt be afraid to space down Air Vertically as it even covers the head.

The main issue is the timing, mostly.

 

[Xygonn]

Should be noted that Samus's down smash is actually pretty amazing on her back hit, which has really REALLY low vertical knockback and sends mostly horizontally a lot, which is great to get people out of you if you read the roll/kill at high %

EDIT: Also something good you can do with missiles, you can "Dash dance" to the opposite direction to the opponent and flick towards immediatly with side B to move while spamming super missiles, which is specially good against any character that is far away. You move a tiny bit while attacking to get brething room for Charging CS

Here (https://vine.co/v/eOx6jddP79E) Is what I mean

EDIT2: You should also mention that you shouldnt be afraid to space down Air Vertically as it even covers the head.

The main issue is the timing, mostly.

Compared to other dsmash back hits it isn't great at all. It's adequate at best.

I'll add something about pivot missiles.

I'll also say something about the amazing size of dair's hitbox.

 

[Zaprong]

Eh thats true about the down smash I guess, I still use it because of that hit since Down tilt unfortunatelly doesnt cover your back

Also didnt knew you could call that pivot missiles, my b

 

[Xygonn]

Edited the usmash section a bit to reflect the update.

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Minor Changes with some 1.0.8 patch comments

Added uair (weak hit) to upb in the uair section, not sure why I didn't put it there before. That's a very common late percent kill setup.

Updated usmash kill percent and changed a bit of the commentary regarding usmash. Specifically it is stronger and has larger hitboxes and better linking. People still fall out of the first couple hits. The last hitbox in particular is much larger and hits most characters standing behind you reliably.

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[Arhat]

I found dsmash quite useful in creating space when an opponent is in the danger zone or in bird of prey mode by rolling on each side of you. Just so you know don't disagree with your own char's moveset too badly.

 

[Xygonn]

I found dsmash quite useful in creating space when an opponent is in the danger zone or in bird of prey mode by rolling on each side of you. Just so you know don't disagree with your own char's moveset too badly.

I guess with the ftilt sour spot that was added it makes dsmash a passable get off move. It's still the worst dsmash in the game.

EDIT: I changed dsmash's description a bit to give it credit where credit is due and upgraded it from basically a wasted slot to nearly a wasted slot.

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Added Teching and Getup Frame Data

Thanks to Scream for collecting this data.

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ETA: It's been a while since any major updates or changes to the guide. If any of you want to go through it and suggest any additions, changes, or anything that would make it better please post a reply in this thread.

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

1.1.1 Update

Updated Nair and Fair frame data to reflect 1.1.1 Confirmed changes. Set Fair landing lag to ??, seems faster, will update as info improves.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

More 1.1.1 Changes

Just updating the guide to reflect some more of the 1.1.1 changes and what they mean relating to shield safety. A few other minor edits.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

General Cleanup a Few More Tidbits of Knowledge

Just hitting up the guide with a cleanup edit and a few more bits of info.

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[capgamer]

hello, i was reading the outsmart motherbrain guide and i noticed you don't mention samus' grab being longer than her dash grab (i haven't tried pivot grab yet) but it's a definite thing that her dash grab is shorter range than a standing grab at the same location. if your dash grab whiffs right in front of your opponent then a standing grab from the same place will probably be able to reach (if the spark is about half your character model width or closer to your opponent). you have alot of great stats so i figured you could add this too.

 

[Xygonn]

hello, i was reading the outsmart motherbrain guide and i noticed you don't mention samus' grab being longer than her dash grab (i haven't tried pivot grab yet) but it's a definite thing that her dash grab is shorter range than a standing grab at the same location. if your dash grab whiffs right in front of your opponent then a standing grab from the same place will probably be able to reach (if the spark is about half your character model width or closer to your opponent). you have alot of great stats so i figured you could add this too.

I'll add this tidbit on the next update. In fact the grab frame data needs to be updated.

 

[capgamer]

I'll add this tidbit on the next update. In fact the grab frame data needs to be updated.

great, i look forward to the improvements can't wait to read them. i love playing samus and though i've learned alot of the info through playing, the frames and when to use attacks gives me a fresh perspective. seems a bit fishy that most characters get an extension of their grab box during a moving grab but poor ol' samus is left with a lump of coal on christmas day.

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Grab section update, end lag calculation update

This update changed the grab section to include the patch updates that slightly reduced the end lag on some of Samus' throws.

I also went through all the ground and aerial moves to update the "end lag" section by basically taking one frame off. The IASA frame is the first frame you are actually acting so the end lag should be (IASA - last active frame - 1). I was just using (IASA - last active frame).

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Minor updates

Main thing I added was that a delay in pummel puts it in the stale queue multiple times. @KayJay mentioned that on discord. I tested it out and it sure does work. Pretty neat.

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[Finanzberater]

Starting to o main her, thank you very much for this guide. i am still troubeling to keep my bombs into the rythm because i only use them vor recovery and edgeguarding i cant simply believe they only usefull in these two situations.

 

[Afro Smash]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Minor updates



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Could you go in to more detail on this? How long should you wait between pummels?

 

[Xygonn]

Could you go in to more detail on this? How long should you wait between pummels?

I think it's only 10 frames. Like, all you have to do is not hit the first actionable frame following the pummel. So you only have to slow down a tiny bit. I haven't confirmed this though and don't have a capture card to get the exact frame on which this works. Try it yourself though. Get a dummy to high percent in a regular mode. Shoot 9 times with uncharged CS, then pummel them as fast as you can, then shoot a CS. It's still pretty stale. Do the same thing, but slow down your pummels. The CS is fresh.

 

[Omerta187]

I main Samus in melee as well as sm4sh, and missile lag canceling can often be used as a safe approach (SH-->Missile-->Follow Missile) because of being able to immediately sprint behind the hitbox of the Super (in melee).

I tried a variation of this in sm4sh, any thoughts? After using Super Missile repeatedly, I can often catch people off guard with a Homing Missile --> follow missile-->Grab --> Grab combo (usually as many up airs as possible). Are there any real risks in doing this? A lot of the time opponents just hold shield and don't know how to react to the Homing Missile when they get used to the speed of a Super. I'm not super big on tailoring percents together, but rather any conceivable punishes behind this. For example, you are my opponent and I do this. How do you react?

 

[Zyriliss]

I know it's late and this guide has been out for a long while.. But seriously? I was severely out of practice and no meta game (8% FG wins and losing to 8's sometimes.. yes that bad).. And just glancing off this guide for a couple weeks got my skills back in shape and brought my FG percent to 39! In just a couple weeks! xD

So now that I've made myself sound like some lame ad.. This thing tells you exactly how to get a decent Samus up and running.. THANK YOU! ^_^

 

[Xygonn]

I know it's late and this guide has been out for a long while.. But seriously? I was severely out of practice and no meta game (8% FG wins and losing to 8's sometimes.. yes that bad).. And just glancing off this guide for a couple weeks got my skills back in shape and brought my FG percent to 39! In just a couple weeks! xD

So now that I've made myself sound like some lame ad.. This thing tells you exactly how to get a decent Samus up and running.. THANK YOU! ^_^

I'm glad it has been helpful to you. Always great to get feedback like this

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

1.1.5 Changes

Changed some stuff for the 1.1.5 patch. More to come.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

More 1.1.5 Updates

A few more changes for 1.1.5. I'm sure I'll need some more.

Put more solid numbers on dash attack but I think they still might be wrong.

Added dash attack frames.

Added animations from Furil's thread.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Minor Tech Updates

Added uair pratfall, first three looping hitboxes of aerial screw attack ledge guards, and bomb ledge trump.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Shinespark

Brief Shinespark guide added to screw attack section. To be updated more with other stages.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Minor Shinespark Section Improvement

Adjusted the shinespark table to add more info and put it behind spoiler tag.

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[Xygonn]

Xygonn updated Outsmarting Mother Brain with a new update entry:

Closing out stocks

Added a short section on closing out stocks including new jab1 jab2 tech chase situations.

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