Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[Foo]

As anyone who is reading this forum knows, the vast majority of Zero Suit players seem to hate the ZSS changes. As someone in this camp, I would like to do whatever possible to bring my favorite smash character of all time back from the dead.

For those who don't know, Zero Suit in 3.5 was change drastically. She was given some nice fixes on a side-b, fair, and upsmash to make them work as intended. She also got a much better grab. However, those changes came at a massive cost. Her neutral airs combo potential at low % was removed and now it is a high% combo tool while also having range cut down significantly, he dash cancel paralyzer was removed, her dair's combo potential was nerfed and all of her non-tech chase follow ups out of throw were removed. She also received some recovery nerfs. To compensate, the PMDT gave slight damage buffs to moves like jab, nair and dtilt, but what results is a character that plays nothing like 3.0 ZSS

Because ZSS wasn't the best character, all of use picked her up in 3.0 because she was fun, she was unique and/or she felt really smooth. I, for one, want my character back for these reasons.

By signing this petition, you are saying "I want 3.0 Zero Suit's core gameplay back." More specifically:

I want dash cancel paralyzer to be restored.
I want nairs combo potential to be restored, even if it's slightly nerfed.
I want her throws to be restored, and if it means giving her the tether grab back, that's absolutely fine.
I am fine with reasonable nerfs and changes, but I want the core of Zero Suit Samus to return.

To sign, just make it clear in the thread below (don't PM me, post below for proof) and I will put your name into the petition. There is no goal for signatures, so just keep signing. Hopefully if enough people do, 3.6 will fix these problems

1. Foo
2. Erik Aldereguia
3. Ouroboro
4. InfinityCollision
5. C CzarYoshi
6. homesuck
7. stingers
8. Roche_CL
9. _Chrome
10. Shokio
11. Legit
12. Lust for Glory
13. K kchamp523
14. CrypticJav
15. Player-3
16. indyrenegade
17. MaysTheCraze
18. Stryker
19. Esper
20. TTTTTsd
21. Haku125
22. steelguttey
23. internetmovieguy
24. LightningLoops
25. AxewKing
26. Losho
27. NondairyDanzig
28. Queen Ystella
29. Dark Sonic
30. SlothFacts



To make it fair, and to give perspective, I am also going to start a petition on the opposite side. If you sign this petition, you are saying.

I like 3.5 Zero Suit.
While I may or may not think she is perfect this patch, I agree with the changes that were made to her this patch.

1. S skellitorman
2. mimgrim
3. Kally Wally
4. Hussler
5. Yurya
6. kaizo13
7. Myst007_teh_newb
8. Beorn
9. JANKX
10. Angell
11. Heero Yuy
12. Lunchables
13.
14.
15.

 

[Foo]

Also, I'd really appreciate for anyone to spread this link into other smash gathering places like reddit and... uh.. wherever else you guys do what you do.

 

[Erik Aldereguia]

i would like to sign. new zss just doesnt make much sense now. i can blaster from far away, but can't do anything with it. that was pretty much the point of zss. even if you happen to land a full charge paralyzer, ur gonna be too far away to follow up with a grab or anything. now her neutral is basically just spaced bairs now with the changes to nair. and that has no follow ups itself. i feel her new kit was a needed attempt at balance, but it was not a very good one, imo.

EDIT: to clarify, i think the grab change was fine, but the throw changes were not. the paralyzer change was not necessary. nair change is ok, but might need a bit of tweaking, as i understand it was too easy to combo with into itself, but now its hard to combo into ANYTHING. so im ok with some changes, but this was too much.

 

[Foo]

i would like to sign. new zss just doesnt make much sense now. i can blaster from far away, but can't do anything with it. that was pretty much the point of zss. even if you happen to land a full charge paralyzer, ur gonna be too far away to follow up with a grab or anything. now her neutral is basically just spaced bairs now with the changes to nair. and that has no follow ups itself. i feel her new kit was a needed attempt at balance, but it was not a very good one, imo.

EDIT: to clarify, i think the grab change was fine, but the throw changes were not. the paralyzer change was not necessary. nair change is ok, but might need a bit of tweaking, as i understand it was too easy to combo with into itself, but now its hard to combo into ANYTHING. so im ok with some changes, but this was too much.

the thing is, her new grab with her old throws would be too good. Knowing you couldn't have both, would you rather have new grab and new throws or old grab and old throws?

 

[ThreeSided]

I'm honestly really torn on this. I love the new grab, but the other changes just really mess up what the point of the character is. I know I can't have both, but ahhhhhhh.

I'll have to abstain, I can't think of a way to properly make this work and I don't know where I'm leaning.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Signing for the restoration of 3.02 ZSS's playstyle.

Emphasis on playstyle. If her combo tools genuinely need nerfs for her to fit with the rest of the 3.5 cast then that's something I can accept. The dramatic change in playstyle on the other hand is unwarranted and serves primarily to fulfill the desires of a specific subgroup of ZSS players at the expense of those who enjoy her more unique aspects.

3.5 ZSS is (probably) viable, but represents an undesirable homogenization. The loss of such a unique, well-crafted playstyle is detrimental to the game as a whole.

 

[Erik Aldereguia]

the thing is, her new grab with her old throws would be too good. Knowing you couldn't have both, would you rather have new grab and new throws or old grab and old throws?

i agree. which is why i said im ok with some changes. but this was too much. i agree the quick grab to good throw followups would be too good. but they made any and all followups pretty much impossible. so if i had to pick, i dont mind going back to the tether grab. its better than making her grab useless. so keep my vote on the 3.02.

 

[Ouroboro]

Id like the have 3.2 core gameplay back.

 

[Ouroboro]

As is pm totallu nerfed my drive to play their game. Ive been thinking about og samus, but thats just patching my wound.

 

[ph00tbag]

I dunno.

I'm upset, too. But petitions are silly. The PMBR does what they do. The solution here is just not to play ZSS. Poor performance for the character will demonstrate that something needs to change in future updates. Hopefully. Then again, mediocre performance in 3.02 prompted a whole boatload of nerfs, so what do I know?

 

[CzarYoshi]

I'll sign for 3.02 ZSS. Her grabs are reliable now (unless they know how to space or have something to keep you back like swords) but they don't lead to anywhere unless you throw them off the edge. If they DI the same for up/down throw, they are out and can reliably just tech away most times. This might be because I'm not used to the end lag that it has (do we have the longest end lag on throws now?). Maybe if we compare videos of 3.02 ZSS and 3.5 ZSS we can further show just how different these changes made her? It seems Samus is her worst matchup so far, Samus can crouch cancel any of our approaches and we can't grab her if she ftilts us so you're forced to try to camp her or just wait to react against her.

 

[homesuck]

on the real i'd be surprised if this accomplished anything but i also don't see how this could do any harm so

i'm positive 3.5 zss is viable, maybe even really good, but i feel like her changes have took away what made her fun and unique. i don't think dash canceled taser was gimmicky enough to deserve being removed in the context of "3.5 remove all major gimmicks", and if that's true and this was mostly for the sake of balancing her new grab, i'd take the DCT+tether grab in a heartbeat. signed

edit i'm gonna give it a week of playing around/testing for a final opinion but i'm still signing for 3.0 for now

 

[ThreeSided]

I dunno.

I'm upset, too. But petitions are silly. The PMBR does what they do. The solution here is just not to play ZSS. Poor performance for the character will demonstrate that something needs to change in future updates. Hopefully. Then again, mediocre performance in 3.02 prompted a whole boatload of nerfs, so what do I know?

The problem with your logic is that 3.5 Zamus seems to be the better character. Sure, the veteran zoot players could all leave, but the newer ones might stick around and we'd get an influx of new players and you'd essentially just be making it more likely that nothing changes.

 

[stingers]

Sign. Character just isnt fun anymore, please bring old ZSS back!

 

[skellitorman]

I sign for 3.5 ZSS.

Her projectile as it was before was ridiculous. Putting a projectile in front of her while she travels behind it severely limits the opponent's options. If it hits, ZSS gets a full combo, but if they block then ZSS gets frame advantage to mount an offense, and if the opponent tried to avoid it, then he would be put into a disadvantageous position since ZSS is faster than 90% of the cast both in the air and the ground and has more range with better disjoints (on a select few moves) than a large portion of the cast.

Combine that with easy ridiculous combos that got her big damage and it should be easy to see that that's not what is wanted for 3.5 where player skill is more necessary. Players with solid fundamental skills will do very well with her in 3.5.

Her projectile as it is now does what a projectile should do. It can be used as a "zoning" tool, where fundamental zoning skills now become required in order to utilize it well. Having full aerial mobility including fast falling is huge when it comes to applying this.

For perspective (and according to what I found on Debug mode): Mario's Fireball is active on frame 14 frame with 26 recovery frames (40 total frames). ZSS's projectile is active on frame 18 frame with 18 recovery frames (36 frames total). Mario obviously has certain other advantages with his projectile, but ZSS has her speed and range for compensation.

The grab change with her projectile change makes ZSS so much fun for me in this version that she will be my second.

 

[Snow Black]

I'm actually really liking the new Zero Suit, I didn't play her before but after the update she's pretty much my new main. Since I didn't play her before I can't really decide whether or not the changes were good for her, but I don't want my new main to be different D:

 

[Roche_CL]

I can't understand why free grab to Hit was so OP as stated by the PMDT. Half of the roaster has grabs into free hits, I don't see anyone going crazy cause Fox can Uthrow to anything, Marth can Uthrow to anything, etc. Also Zamus aerials are much more DIable than for example Fox's Uair.
For me Tether grab was really bad, and im glad it changed, but it didn't need a compensation. Was Zamus top-high tier? Was even classified low tier by CT team.
Also Nair seems useless as a combo tool anymore. Do they want us to play like brawl? one hit then run away? Whats the problem with Nair strings? anyway Nair was DIable by most of the chars.

Also paralyzer to grab isn't an issue, i mean, have you seen falco? how many falco's can get laser to grab? only noobs fall on that, you can just spot dodge or roll out, or even powershield.

My vote is for bringing back 3.02 Zamus. I don't want to play her defensively, and also we could get higher spot on tournaments since they nerfed the rest of the top tiers.

#bringbacktheblonde

 

[_Chrome]

I'd like to sign to restore ZSS to 3.0, while I like the new grab, her combo game is ruined. I would like to see the grab remain with nerfed throws, but not as nerfed as they have been in 3.5, as she can't get anything going off of them anymore. Furthermore, the nair is terrbile and I would like to see her dsmash, dair and her blaster restored to their previous glory.

@ Roche_CL #bringbacktheblonde

 

[Foo]

I dunno.

I'm upset, too. But petitions are silly. The PMBR does what they do. The solution here is just not to play ZSS. Poor performance for the character will demonstrate that something needs to change in future updates. Hopefully. Then again, mediocre performance in 3.02 prompted a whole boatload of nerfs, so what do I know?

Come one, what's the harm in signing them? There may be a low chance it will spur a change, but there IS a chance. Come on, embrace your inner slacktivist!

@ Snow Black Is that a signature for 3.5 ZSS, or just throwing in your 2 cents?

 

[Shokio]

Sign me up. You know for which one.

 

[Legit]

Sign me up. You know for which one.

 

[Lust for Glory]

#bringbacktheblonde
Restore to 3.0

 

[mimgrim]

I personally like 3.5 ZSS. She just feels better overall to me. So put me on the 3.5 list. :L

 

[BILL?]

I suppose you can put me on for the return to 3.0 ZSS. I never played her competitively so idk how much my opinion of the character should count but I was actually really hype to start going to PM tourneys with ZSS and then I got the game and my hype was gone. Very sad much nerfed.

 

[Snow Black]

@ Snow Black Is that a signature for 3.5 ZSS, or just throwing in your 2 cents?

Go ahead and write me down, I'd rather her not change anytime soon.

 

[kchamp523]

I will sign for 3.0 ZSS, although if she happens to be brought back, dash cancel needs to activate at a later frame in order for ZSS to remain balanced in the 3.5 environment.

 

[CrypticJav]

Im all for getting the old ZSS back. She just isnt the same. Ive been struggling to find a new character that sort of feels like her, but there isnt one who feels the same.

 

[CrypticJav]

And the throws. OH dont get me started

 

[Shokio]

Lmaooooo, couldn't even get a follow-up at 0%, this is atrocious xD.

I don't know how ANYONE can think this grab is ok, I should make this my new sig looooooool

 

[mimgrim]

If that person had even taken a quick moment to pause and wait, they could have easily read his tech. Not getting anything out of that particular throw in that particular instance is totally on the players fault.

That is a really bad piece of evidence.

 

[Shokio]

If that person had even taken a quick moment to pause and wait, they could have easily read his tech. Not getting anything out of that particular throw in that particular instance is totally on the players fault.

That is a really bad piece of evidence.

Firstly, we don't WANT it to be a tech chase throw. We want it to be the combo throw it once was. We didn't NEED a tech-chase throw either.

Secondly, it's not even a good tech chase throw! It doesn't even serve it's new purpose well. It just sends people way too far and is very easily DI'd. Look at Wario's, Metaknight's, Kirby's, Charizard's down throws. THOSE are real tech throws.

Thirdly, play close attention to ZSS's endlag in comparison to when DJ hits the ground. He doesn't have time to sit there and wait for a read, because the endlag is so bad that once it's finally over, you need to get your ass moving because by the time you're done with the animation, your opponent has already teched the ground.

That +5 frames that were added on the down throw make it's new angle even more inefficient than it already is by itself.

 

[mimgrim]

Firstly, we don't WANT it to be a tech chase throw. We want it to be the combo throw it once was. We didn't NEED a teach-chase throw either.

Not what I was arguing

Secondly, it's not even a good tech chase throw! It doesn't even serve it's new purpose well. It just sends people way too far and is very easily DI'd. Look at Wario's, Metaknight's, Kirby's, Charizard's down throws. THOSE are real tech throws.

Once again, not what I was arguing. I'm arguing against the certain specific evidence you are using, the player had ample to time to react to the tech and punish the opponent but instead got overzealous.

Thirdly, play close attention to ZSS's endlag in comparison to when DJ hits the ground. He doesn't have time to sit there and wait for a read, because the endlag is so bad that once it's finally over, you need to get your *** moving because by the time you're done with the animation, your opponent has already teched the ground.

That +5 frames that were added on the down throw make it's new angle even more inefficient than it already is by itself.

The player still could have punished the tech despite all that if they hadn't gotten overzealous.

That was entirely the players fault.

 

[Shokio]

Not what I was arguing



Once again, not what I was arguing. I'm arguing against the certain specific evidence you are using, the player had ample to time to react to the tech and punish the opponent but instead got overzealous.



The player still could have punished the tech despite all that if they hadn't gotten overzealous.

That was entirely the players fault.

I know you weren't necessarily saying it should be that way.

By you saying it was the player's fault for not getting a follow up, I pretty much said it isn't cause the throw shouldn't be like that in the first place. Essentially, the player was a victim of bad design, because he SHOULDN'T be trying to tech read out of a ZSS down throw to begin with, and then the throw itself is pretty gimped. It's dysfunctional.

(Sorry if it sounded like I was coming at you the wrong way.)

 

[Player-3]

Sign me up. You know for which one.

This .

 

[Player-3]

All changing her did was turn her from a unique char into a falcon with a bad gun

 

[CzarYoshi]

The player still could have punished the tech despite all that if they hadn't gotten overzealous.

That was entirely the players fault.

The endlag on the down throw is too long to tech chase properly. He acted as soon as he could from it, by the time ZSS moved the Ike had already teched. Keep in mind that Ike's pretty heavy and he was at 0%. Imagine if he was at around 60%? He would've gone much further making the throw even worse. You could argue that he should have done a back throw but if the Ike can just sweetspot his Aether and been fine. Quick question: Was it possible to footstool his Aether in 3.02? I tried it in 3.5 and I did get the jump from him but his Aether was uninterrupted.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

I'm really quite happy with the new ZSS changes. i feel that with what we've gained it was a fair trade off for what was lost.

however i have not entered into a tournament setting with her yet so its mostly just theory on my end with a little bit of practice

 

[Kally Wally]

Signing for 3.5 ZSS. How about we actually try to adapt rather than screaming and whining about changes we've barely scratched the surface of?

 

[LonVoen]

Lmaooooo, couldn't even get a follow-up at 0%, this is atrocious xD.

I don't know how ANYONE can think this grab is ok, I should make this my new sig looooooool

This is not a good example because the follow-up was extremely loose. By loose I mean there are ways that it could have been followed up better.
1)He ran too far, which was a waste of time.
2)He wavedashed AFTER running too far, forcing him to wait until z-suit's landing frames ended before even initiating his attack
3)He chose dsmash, which isn't exactly z-suit's fastest follow-up.

This particular failure of a follow-up doesn't not make the move impossible to follow-up. It does look like for someone of Ike's weight that it is, though. This could be due to not acting as soon as possible after the throw.
She may have it be downgraded to a tech-chase throw but it could also be a DI mixup with a different throw. Hard to say without going out and testing which needs done before crying for changes.
Even in the event that there is no perfect guaranteed follow-up from her dthrow, what if he skipped running forward, and did a wavedash immediately into jab? It would certainly be eons faster than at the very least. And if it doesn't land maybe it will jab reset. Which is going to be way more skill oriented and interesting to watch (jab-reset into dsmash maybe? yoooo). I'm spit-balling here, but who knows if it's viable without testing?
tl;dr 3.5 signed, go test things before asking for change

 

[Blank Mauser]

It's not necessarily bad to have no follow-ups at 0%. In fact a lot of characters only get theirs at low-mid percents.

Also even though they end up further away distance-wise for the techchase, unlike other characters it won't matter as much how heavy they are (Causing you to have less advantage after a throw because it takes longer) because you'll still always have massive frame advantage.