Player-1's Impression Of Diddy Kong from the Final Game

[Player-1]

Hey guys, I was a very high level brawl Diddy player and thought I'd give some impressions of what I thought of Diddy so far. I'm at a friend's who has the game and will be playing him throughout the weekend, but I've already found/seen some stuff of Diddy that's worth note for competitive play.

So I'll get some of the stuff out of the way that most of you already know:


-There is only one banana, and they disappear on hit or if they just slip on them, it doesn't matter if they're on the ground or in the air. Trying to pull out another banana does NOT make the other disappear. The banana will disappear even after 2-3 throws regardless if you hit someone or not. If you try to pull a banana immediately after the first one disappeared then you will still go into lag of not having pulled one out so you have to wait like a second after the banana disappeared to pull it out.

-You can B reverse banana plucks, good landing option since the banana can cover you while you shift your momentum

-You can instant toss (air dodge cancel item toss) and since bananas are so big in this game, you can easily instant toss from the ground, it was a lot harder in brawl with diddy.

-Glidetossing seems to be out, BUT YOU CAN JUMP CANCEL TOSS. For those of you who don't know jump cancel toss is cancelling your jump squat animation with a toss, you still gain momentum from the jump if you jump into a direction, so it's basically glidetossing, but harder to do reverse glide tossing stuff and even harder due to lack of c stick in the game.

-You can B reverse popgun still, peanuts seem to have a bit more knockback, nothing insane though.

-The popgun charge takes less time fully charge, and goes to horizontal mode a lot faster

-You can cancel the popgun charge still, however if you do it in the air it seems you always air dodge instead of just cancelling like in brawl which is a little worse since air dodge into the ground has lag, make sure you do it high if you do.

-Up-B has A LOT of uses. In this game. You can change your angle almost immediately, I can go almost instantly in a 180 degree angle from up-b. Furthermore, you can change directions during the up-b really well. I can do squiggles in the air really easily even with a small charge. I can go into the 180 degree up-b and go up still from the side. You can also use it to avoid juggles surprisingly. Since it changes angles so fast, go straight horizontal and hold down and you'll go into a bit of a downward angle with up-b still active. A LOT of versatility. Even a short up-b charge seems to go farther, or maybe it goes further horizontally than it does vertically will test more.

-You can also still hit walls and blow up with up-b, but since the angle changes you can use up-b from the ground and blow up into the ground. The up-b doesn't do as much damage as it did in brawl or knockback, but it still seems to do a good bit and can kill so definitely something that might come into play, but you still take 5% if you blow up. Up-bing into your opponents as an approach might actually be a viable approach since it's so versatile, you can change into the ground or change to go up like onto a platform for a safer landing or something. Definitely needs more testing.

-Up air is different, it's like an overhead swipe, like DK 64 uair, DK's utilt. Not sure how it compares to previous uair yet, definitely not bad. I killed a charizard player off the top at 86 after the hit, but idk how he DIed and we were sort of close to the top, but still that seems good. will mess with it more

-Fair is better than in brawl, it seems like you can do them faster, FFing them will be important, it does auto cancel, will be one of Diddy's bread and butter moves.

-Bair still seems to be good and close to brawl, you can do 2 in a SH and still has a bit of lag like brawl, but I don't think it's a lot, need to mess with it more.

-Dash attack has a bit of a finisher at the end of it, but it still sets up for combos/strings well

-Not sure about nair/tilts yet will test more

-Side-b grab attack acts same as brawl, it won't give you specials back if you attack off of it, but will give them back if you jump off. The side-b grab attack sends at a horizontal angle so you can't get any aerial follow ups after it, it may be able to kill based off the knockback it did at low percent, but I don't know if it will be a reliable kill

-Dsmash/Fsmash still seems to be about the same, haven't messed with usmash too much yet. All I did with dsmash fsmash is JCT into them for kills.

-Throws seem to be similar will test more.

Important tl;dr version

Fair is busted, up-b is good recovery, good to escape juggles, a lot of versatility. Bananas are nerfed, instant tossing is still.
TO REITERATE JCT (JUMP CANCEL TOSSING) IS THE NEW GLIDETOSS.


I'll edit this post with updates so keep an eye out. If you want me to test anything I can try, right now sharing 3DS between 4 people playing wifi matches with people and switching every game.

edit 1:
-Diddy's ftilt seems to have a bit more range, not much though, lost its kill power (or i sourspotted it multiple times). Seems to be about the same speed, overall seems worse.

-Bthrow seems to have slightly better kill power, I think it's due to the DI in this game being nerfed a bit.

Edit 2:
-Side-b kick seems to have good knock, may also be a kill move, but I only hit with it at mid %, not a super strong one, but has kill potential

-You can't jump out of side-b so you're committing if you use it, you can still change between grab and kick, but not being able to jump out of it is a huge nerf.

Edit 3:
-Bananas clank with stuff and disappear when they clank (IDK how clanking properties work in this game since they've changed every game but I'll note that it clanked with mario's fire ball). I think Diddy will have a hard time dealing with good projectile users in neutral, using side-b kick to beat out the projectiles I think will be important

-Dsmash is nerfed, didn't kill a mario at 140% from middle stage.

Edit 4:
-Bananas on the ground can clank with stuff, they disappear after.

Edit 5:
-Nair has less landing lag than it did in brawl, good combo move.
-I tried using usmash to kill from a JCT banana, but it didn't send him anywhere at a fairly high %, but I think they DIed out of it before the final hit connected instead. So maybe usmash is just prone to being DIed out of easily, will have to test more.

Edit 6:
-Side-b kick still edge cancels, it seems easier too.

Edit 7:
-Pummel seems to be faster, I'm not sure if that's universal or not

Edit 8:
-Fair is nerfed kill power wise, but still definitely really good move

-Dthrow good to setup juggles

-Dash Attack seems to be easily DIable if you hit with the end of it

-I think the 'glitch' where if diddy gets hit and immediately tries to up-b then he falls normal fall speed instead of the reduced barrel stall speed, I need to try it again, but I think it happened to me

Edit 9:
-Having problems killing, Fsmash and Uair seem to be the most reliable. Haven't tried utilt or usmash yet, people keep DIing out of usmash but I think it would be viable to space it so only the last part hits.

-Having problems sweetspotting the edge, sometimes I'll just hit the stage and blow up, guess it just needs more precision and practice

-Item game is harder because you have to think about smashing item throws so they go farther

Edit 10:
-Was playing against megaman IDK how heavy he is but utilt didn't kill at 140, but in Brawl it didn't kill MK til 150 with decent DI, it was killing megaman at 180 though. Utilt won't hit low anymore though, just high decent anti air it seems.

Edit 11:
-Through first day of playing I definitely think Diddy's biggest problem is killing. I think this generally true for every character, but especially true for diddy, is that he suffers from not having a c stick due to not being able to use items as well which is probably going to be one of the best ways to setup kills (well it's possible to do just about everything without a c stick, it's just much harder). So I don't think Diddy is bad with all these nerfs to bananas, just really hard to play on the 3DS

Edit 12:
-Side-b grab seems to automatically pummel for some small damage

Edit 13:
-Uair still comes out pretty fast, it hit frame 3 in brawl, not sure if it's that fast, but definitely fast start up and starts low so you can scoop people with it

-I think Diddy has some pretty good edgeguards, and thanks to his buffed recovery can still make it back with too much danger, only problem is sweetspotting the edge is harder and if you miss you can blow up on the stage and die so have to practice that with the 3DS analog stick

Edit 14:
-Even though fair is really good, it has one main weakness I think and that's that it won't hit people a lot of the times because the fair goes above a lot of character's heads in this game. Uair hits in the front and it starts fast and sweeps low and combos well. It's range is alright, nothing near fair I think that is its only drawback

Edit 15:
-Uair is REALLY good for breaking combos, still comes out around frame 3 like in brawl, even multijabs.

Edit 16:
- Run off fair/double jump fair is a good edgeugard and can net early kills, you can also hit with up-b if they avoid the fair going low

 

[hichez50]

You should put a space between each bullet point. It will promote readability.

Can all characters jump cancel toss equal( in all directions) even if the distance or usability isn't practical?

 

[Player-1]

I haven't tried with other characters, but in Brawl I think every char had a JCT, but very few didn't move too much. I believe like DDD wouldn't move very far from a JCT. I think it would be similar for smash 4. I'll test when I get the chance but want to play mostly Diddy right now while i'm wifiing

 

[Player-1]

Something worth note about JCT, you can't slide with it out of shield, you have to have it carry your momentum which you don't have while your in shield, so that's the only difference between glidetoss, that is a big difference though

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Kills seem to come really late in general in this game unless you're bowling.

At least, that's what Im getting from playing the full version.

 

[KowKow]

Thanks for all the updates!! I was looking through the other character boards and not many have notes anywhere near as thorough as these, though I was hoping they wouldn't nerf bananas as hard.

Is pulling out the bananas roughly the same speed as it was in Brawl?

 

[Player-1]

Ya the banana nerf hurts him a lot, I do think he's nerfed overall, but he's still solid, at least for now. The Fair buff is really good for him, it was already a really good move in brawl and it auto cancels from a SH which I think is important in this game. Dash attack juggling is really good, if you get a DA I think you'll be able to take it far and b reversing banana plucks is good too. I think he's a good juggler and thanks to having 2 b reversals, side-b, and up-b (Which is really good to get back to the ground from being juggled, it sounds unintuitive I know, but works really well) he can escape juggles really well which I don't think many other chars have and due to the air dodge nerf will be important. His neutral game overall seems nerfed since that's where bananas shined (this is where fair will be important and dash attack too).

I think banana pluck might a bit faster, but not by much.

 

[Dre89]

Is there any reason to use nanas now, it seems like a lot of frames to pull one out for minimal reward. Plus there's the risk of your opponent gaining control of it.

Edit- You mention b-reversing nana plucks, it'd be cool if you could elbaorate on why that's useful.

 

[chimpact]

Fair's better than it was in brawl haha, not bad at all...

i heard you can use the barrels in the air to go downwards. If you can, how is it as a kill move?

 

[Player-1]

I haven't been able to hit with very much, but it seems weaker than brawl, but not by much it will kill, it's just pretty avoidable since opponents just hold shield when they see me starting to up-b into them. It'll be decent troll option later on when we figure out more stuff and get used to controls.

That being said, Diddy's edgeguarding is pretty decent if opponent is coming high, haven't messed around with it in the low part too much because I'm worried about missing my sweetspot into the edge and blowing up instead need to practice that. The ways I'm getting most of my kills is putting them at the edge and killing them off stage with edgeguarding with bair and fair, I just started using up-b too since it's pretty safe now even if we miss and it seems like it's good so far.

Also to get a better idea of how much control you get during the charge and during the launch check this out lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfDWAjOLkLc

 

[Count]

Man, I love seeing all these old faces. Lets do it all over again!!

 

[Player-1]

Is there any reason to use nanas now, it seems like a lot of frames to pull one out for minimal reward. Plus there's the risk of your opponent gaining control of it.

Edit- You mention b-reversing nana plucks, it'd be cool if you could elbaorate on why that's useful.

Ya bananas I still think is Diddy's most reliable way to get kill setups and I think that's important because Diddy seems to have a very hard time killing from my experiences. It still disrupts netural, the only problem I'm having with them is not having a c stick and not being able to control them like I want

B reversing plucking really good since you can change your momentum instantly so it's not easy to juggle you or trap your landing, b revesring popgun isn't as good since you always air dodge in the air so b reversing pluck comes in handy since the banana can also cover you when you turn around.

 

[Boofy!]

hello diddy people

 

[Luigi player]

Thanks for the analysis P1! Wish I could do it myself too >-< so jelly.

So you lose your doublejump just for sideBing? That really sucks.
Do you still lose it if you grab onto one and attack/jump from them?

 

[Player-1]

You don't lose your double jump, you just can't use a double jump before side-b crashes into the ground (Assuming even stage). You could still use double jump if you side-b off the stage since you wouldn't crash into anything.

You never lost your double jump (brawl and pm) no matter which option you did off the opponent. If you jump off of them you still regain your double jump if you used it before that and if you used it prior to attacking off of them you don't regain it so that's still the same. One thing about the side-b attack is getting back to the ground after using it is slightly harder because almost all of your options have some lag after it since you can't air dodge into the ground anymore. If you land normally you still go through a lot of lag if you're in that "hands out to the side with your feed together" type animation. If you land with an aerial you go through aerial lag, so if you want to land laglessly you have to burn your midair jump which also cost time, but the good thing is that side-b grab sends them farther away so it's not too much of a problem since they're usually not close to punish you after that.

 

[Player-1]

Hey guys, ClashTournaments is doing a podcast on a lot of Smash 4 stuff tonight starting at 8 est with different topics being covered. They've invited me on to talk about my impressions if you guys want to tune it for that. I think I'll be on around 9 est.

twitch.tv/clashtournaments

 

[Luigi player]

You don't lose your double jump, you just can't use a double jump before side-b crashes into the ground (Assuming even stage). You could still use double jump if you side-b off the stage since you wouldn't crash into anything.

You never lost your double jump (brawl and pm) no matter which option you did off the opponent. If you jump off of them you still regain your double jump if you used it before that and if you used it prior to attacking off of them you don't regain it so that's still the same. One thing about the side-b attack is getting back to the ground after using it is slightly harder because almost all of your options have some lag after it since you can't air dodge into the ground anymore. If you land normally you still go through a lot of lag if you're in that "hands out to the side with your feed together" type animation. If you land with an aerial you go through aerial lag, so if you want to land laglessly you have to burn your midair jump which also cost time, but the good thing is that side-b grab sends them farther away so it's not too much of a problem since they're usually not close to punish you after that.

Ohh that's what you meant (thought you meant offstage xD), okay. :/ I loved doing the kick early enough to be able to doublejump out of it. And it actually required timing too since you couldn't just buffer it.

Do you think Diddys UpB will be okay as a recovery? It's really easy to bounce off the stage it seems... x_x

 

[Player-1]

It just requires practice I think, other than that it's busted I think if you're doing it right.

There's some interesting mechanic/property the up-b has that needs more experimentation. If you hold up-b and fully charge it and go straight up you will go pretty high. Now use up-b and and fully charge it and hold it straight right/left, if you decide to go up during the up-b (like imagine doing it from edge of FD and you go horizontal, hold up when you get to the middle), you will go like the same distance up if you hold straight up. You can go under FD without using a side-b and without using a side-b and only FD by just holding the charge and going straight horizontal, then changing up when you get to the other side and grab the edge, heck you can go past the edge onto the stage. I will try to make a vid, but I think going horizontal to get below the edge and then going up to grab it will be the way to recover easy.

 

[Player-1]

So this is something really good. Uair still comes out I think around frame 3, it can break combos REALLY well, even the multi jab combos, although you have to be in the air sort of to break it, you can't be at the horizontal tip in most cases, just DI out in that case

 

[Toady]

You can go under FD without using a side-b and without using a side-b and only FD by just holding the charge and going straight horizontal, then changing up when you get to the other side and grab the edge, heck you can go past the edge onto the stage.

Wait, so are you saying you don't go helpless after you use jetpack? Like you can use it more than once? Or am I just reading that wrong?

 

[Player-1]

No, Diddy's up-b can change directions super fast and sharp in this game.


Observe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvCxVDjsOOg

 

[Fliphopper]

Did some testing well. Noticed the same points you gave with Diddy. I don't think you can auto cancel the monkey kick either (maybe I did it too slow).

 

[Empty Number]

No, Diddy's up-b can change directions super fast and sharp in this game.


Observe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvCxVDjsOOg

@ Fliphopper Do you think either of you could upload a few matches of Diddy to YouTube? Nothing special - just a few 'For Glory' games or maybe a Classic Mode run. The streams seem unwilling to play him (not that it's their obligation, I'm just making an observation) and I would dearly like to see a bit of his potential on the 3DS.

 

[Player-1]

@ Fliphopper Do you think either of you could upload a few matches of Diddy to YouTube? Nothing special - just a few 'For Glory' games or maybe a Classic Mode run. The streams seem unwilling to play him (not that it's their obligation, I'm just making an observation) and I would dearly like to see a bit of his potential on the 3DS.

I'd like to, but sadly I have returned from my friend's house who owns the japanese 3DS if I play it again before the release I might be able to so I probably won't be updating anywhere near as often, I can only do some theory crafting based on what I've played and try to make some observations from the stream.

I did play against a few streamers so it might be in their video archive I can try to find out.

I did manage to figure out edgeguarding a bit, run off double jumps fairs was really good and it was netting me a lot of kills so edgeguarding will probably be really important for diddy to get the kills he needs since, like I've said previously, he seems to lack good kill power. If the opponent drops down low you can drop down and hit with up-b which can also kill near the edge.


edit:

Vs Zero:
http://www.twitch.tv/zero/b/568266686?t=9h49m10s

Vs Omega:
http://www.twitch.tv/omegaevolution/b/568451121?t=1h33m


I literally started using run off double jump fair edgeguards like 2 matches after I played against zero (I did it against omega, you'll see if you watch the matches) which would have helped a lot, I was messing around with run off and barrel back on trying to hit the opponent which was decent too, you'll see if you watch the matches.

 

[Foughen]

But P1 sis, weren't you a tier whoar?

Now that diddy is bad are you even going to be using ha?

Shouldn't you be picking Paletuna?

 

[Conti]

Good ****, I'm excited for smash4 diddy :] His combo game still looks solid, the banana game is going to be alot more strategic. Hype

 

[Player-1]

But P1 sis, weren't you a tier whoar?

Now that diddy is bad are you even going to be using ha?

Shouldn't you be picking Paletuna?

wat

Good ****, I'm excited for smash4 diddy :] His combo game still looks solid, the banana game is going to be alot more strategic. Hype

I think his combo game is really good, among maybe one of the best. Uair, nair, bair, and some utilt seem to be the best. That being said among day 3 impressions I see him being mid tier, but you know...that's just day 3 impressions (of japan's release), lol, anything could happen he could end up being the best in the game or the worst in the game who knows?

 

[Luigi player]

or the worst in the game who knows?

I think that spot's reserved for Ganondorf again.

 

[Player-1]

I wasn't really impressed by Ganondorf either, but Vex says he's not that bad so I guess we'll have to see

 

[Empty Number]

I wasn't really impressed by Ganondorf either, but Vex says he's not that bad so I guess we'll have to see

I've been seeing some videos of Bowser Jr. just wrecking face. He's got some options there. Seems tough to KO with, but his projectile game and his attack range seems pretty good. Any thoughts on him and how Diddy might play him seeing as bananas have been toned down?

 

[Player-1]

From what I've seen, Bowser Jr relies on his down-b (that wind up toy thing) to pressure opponents and get hit confirms into stuff. It's an item so I just started to pick it up and use it against him...that's really all I have to say on the MU I didn't find many bowser jr players on the for glory mode, but when I did I didn't see anything in particular that either character could abuse or anything. Guess that MU just needs to be explored more....I mean everything needs more exploration so I guess we'll see. I played as Bowser Jr a bit and liked how he felt, I definitely think he's up there in good chars.

 

[Count]

P1, any other characters similar to brawl diddy you enjoyed? I'm 95% sticking to Diddy (because let's be honest, even if he's garbs i'm indebted to him for carrying me through brawl), but I guess I wouldn't rule switching out completely.

 

[Player-1]

I played Duck Hunt Dog in like 2 matches, I plan to mess with him more (He's the Banjo Kazooie char that I've wanted :x ). His camp game is pretty similar to Diddys or Snakes. The can in front and throw frisbee similar to banana in front shooting peanuts. Other than that not sure.

 

[Count]

That's tight, by my own observance that's what I figured. I loved doc in melee and I think they're more similar than people think.

That being said, it's almost certain I'll return to Diddy. Who will rep the yellow shirt otherwise?

 

[Player-1]

So I think uair OoS is really good option since it's fast and has a lot more horizontal range than in brawl, and I think up-b OoS might also be good for people behind you, but I didn't get to mess with this. Since up-b can change angle so fast you can just up-b horizontally and run away from the person so I think it's pretty safe. In brawl up-b hit on frame 8 so if it's similar to that then I think it would be decent-good OoS option.

 

[a Link to the Forums]

Hey, Player-1. Great analysis. Few questions: does Diddy's nair still send the opponent upwards for juggles? And does he feel different in general in this game because Diddy's bananas and item game has been nerfed?

 

[Player-1]

Yes to both, nair is great for starting/continuing combos. I think it has roughly the same landing lag as in brawl, maybe a bit less, and I'd say that was one of nair's biggest problems in brawl is that it too much landing for a move that was too slow and not enough range for it to be all the useful in brawl, but smash 4 most of the other moves have increased landing so nair isn't as bad relatively anymore. I find myself landing into people with nair as they land from me juggling them or using bair>nair since Diddy's bair you can do it and any aerial (except maybe dair?) in one SH.

It might not be that he feels different because his banana game is nerfed, but more so because it's just a different game with different mechanics. He definitely feels different in ways, but he also still feels similar.

 

[Roxas215]

Liking what im reading!! It seems Diddy's overall game got buffed while nanas got a sereve nerf. Im actually ok with this as it seems the most interesting thing about this game will be the offstage game(These huge ass blast zone is bascially forcing us to go off stage for the kill) If this is the case and if diddy can combo out of dash attack as well as he could in brawl then i think Diddy is gonna have one of the better off stage games out the roster.)

Also is it me or does it seem like Pacman got all of diddy's brawl strengths?? (Sh double aerials,Fruit camping,Projectile edge guarding,etc) If Diddy proves not to be a viable tournament threat i think alot of Diddy players are gonna turn to Pacman!)

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

Custom specials. Please explore these

 

[Player-1]

Hey guys, I played the full game again this past weekend and have some other update stuff. I'm going to shift discussion to the metagame thread that's currently stickied. I'm pretty tired right now since I was the head TO for PM at the event so I'll post after I get some rest, but just wanted to let everyone know that I probably won't post much more in this thread and move to the other thread.