Possible new ZSS tech

[ForgottenLabRat]

So I was messing around with this character and discovered some strange tech. This tech only works if she is on a platform that is possible to drop through. If ZSS drops through the platform, immediately Up airs, and hits an opponent, she will stay on the platform instead of dropping through. This is similar to what Luigi can do with his Nair. I don't really play ZSS so I don't know how this would be incorporated in her game, but it looks like a good shield drop option. Tell me what you think.

 

[drakargx]

I just spent about 20 minutes trying to do it, to no success. I'm thinking this would work because up air changes her stage collision points, but so far this is the best I've gotten

Which doesn't come close to hitting DK so she falls through the platform as normal. I also tried it on Samus and it was the same thing. You do it frame perfectly, and the up air doesn't connect until you fall through the platform. If you wait for some frames, you're already under the platform. Would love to see a video of you or someone else doing this though.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Sorry for not specifying, the opponent needs to be on the platform above. with you. It just basically allows you to have an incredibly small short hop allowing for a ton of follow ups.

 

[drakargx]

Oh okay, when they're on the same platform it works. Could be useful as an escape tool when cornered and the opponent decides to meet you on the platform you're on. I'm not good enough at shield dropping to test if you can shield drop up air, the best I can do with the tech is a grab after I land from the drop. But if you could do this with a shield drop it'll be an even better option when they meet you on a platform.

 

[Foo]

It works with shield dropping and regular dropping too. Has to be frame perfect and hit an opponent. Not sure why hitting an opponent matters, but *shrug*. I would do it sometimes on accident and figured it had to be frame perfect and just wasn't getting it, but now I see why I could never reproduce it outside of it randomly happening in games.

Not sure it's useful, though. I suppose at low %s you could shield drop upair into grab or something.

 

[Vixen]

It's actually pretty useful. Luigi and Mario mains in Melee/PM have gotten a lot of mileage out of it. I'm sure ZSS could too. Not even hard. Just push down+c stick up simultaneously basically.

The uair ends up hitting the bottom of their shield and you land instantly. You end up highly + on shield.

 

[Foo]

It's actually pretty useful. Luigi and Mario mains in Melee/PM have gotten a lot of mileage out of it. I'm sure ZSS could too. Not even hard. Just push down+c stick up simultaneously basically.

The uair ends up hitting the bottom of their shield and you land instantly. You end up highly + on shield.

iirc, everytime I've done it I've had to L-cancel it. Zss upair's autocancel frames are 26-33, so it should still be normal -3 or whatever it is on shield.

 

[InfinityCollision]

^This is correct, it's by no means positive on block.

As for why it only works when you hit them, the hitstun gives her ECB time to transition to its aerial state. This moves her landing detection upwards enough that it has her land on the platform again a couple of frames after hitstun ends.

 

[Vixen]

iirc, everytime I've done it I've had to L-cancel it. Zss upair's autocancel frames are 26-33, so it should still be normal -3 or whatever it is on shield.

-3 is still effectively positive because you have moves faster than their fastest out of shield option.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Oh youre talking about platform cancels. Yeah the timing for it is tough, but it's pretty useful once done correctly. I'm still trying to master it with my main with nair/bair/uair.

 

[ph00tbag]

This was definitely around in Melee and in Brawl. It's only possible when you hit an opponent because the "can't land after going airborne" window expires before hitlag ends. The timing shouldn't actually be frame perfect, because it's really easy to actually do accidentally. However, shield-dropping into it would require a bit more precision, just because shield dropping requires a bit more precision.

 

[Foo]

-3 is still effectively positive because you have moves faster than their fastest out of shield option.

but but... that's not what plus on shield means... Besides, the only thing you could beat shield grab with is jab by one or two frames... -3 is pretty meh.

 

[ph00tbag]

Safety on shield shouldn't be particularly important. This is primarily a punish, the important point is whether what your opponent does is unsafe enough for this to hit.

 

[Vixen]

but but... that's not what plus on shield means... Besides, the only thing you could beat shield grab with is jab by one or two frames... -3 is pretty meh.

I'm sorry but you're an idiot.

If you're in front of them you will beat shield grab outright with Jab, and Utilt. If they hold shield you just keep wailing away on it, or grab them for waiting too long.

If you're behind them they have to do a defensive option or an attack out of shield. You're in a clear advantage in this situation.

Furthermore platform cancel uair sets up for solid combos.

"Pretty meh?" You have got to be kidding me. Do you have any imagination at all? Do you take any time to actually test things out because it sure as hell doesn't sound like it.

Just stop posting lmfao. All you do is shut players down when they try to break the mold. "Oh it's too hard, oh it won't work, oh maybe your partner just isn't DI-ing correctly."

Maybe YOU'RE just bad and YOUR scene is bad.

 

[Foo]

I'm sorry but you're an idiot.

If you're in front of them you will beat shield grab outright with Jab, and Utilt. If they hold shield you just keep wailing away on it, or grab them for waiting too long.

If you're behind them they have to do a defensive option or an attack out of shield. You're in a clear advantage in this situation.

Furthermore platform cancel uair sets up for solid combos.

"Pretty meh?" You have got to be kidding me. Do you have any imagination at all? Do you take any time to actually test things out because it sure as hell doesn't sound like it.

Just stop posting lmfao. All you do is shut players down when they try to break the mold. "Oh it's too hard, oh it won't work, oh maybe your partner just isn't DI-ing correctly."

Maybe YOU'RE just bad and YOUR scene is bad.

Let's do some simple math kids, are you ready? YAY LET'S GO. You see, if a move is -3 on shield, that means the shielding player can act 3 frames before the attacking player. ZSS's jab comes out on frame 2. 3+2=5 frames. Since most shieldgrabs come out on frame 6, this would put it at one frame faster than shield grab! However, uptilt comes out on frame 3, and 3+3=6, meaning they'd both come out at the same time. However, grabs have the nasty tendency to beat out any other move that comes out on the same frame.

It's also worth keeping in mind that if your opponent stays in shield. Uptilt is a whopping -27 on shield,, whereas jab will have up to two more opportunities to punish shield grab.

Also, -3 doesn't equal plus anything, which was the entire point of my posts. And yeah, -3 is pretty meh when compared to most other similar aerials. Having a small mixup opportunity for a light punish, where losing the mixup gets you grabbed is pretty meh. Also, if you hit the back of the shield, sure, you are usually pretty safe. Just like with pretty much every move ever. Hitting the back of someones shield is almost always good advantage. Unless it's with something like fsmash lol.

Also, don't get all ad hominem on me. I calculated all of her aerials on shield for a reason. I don't shut people down for trying to break the mold, I don't shut anyone down, I just correct things that are flat out wrong. If I based everything off of my experience in game rather than my testing, I would think upair had free follow ups on just about everyone because nobody bothers to figure out how to DI zss. I literally get away with just upthrowing everyone into major combos, but yet I don't come here and talk about how good zss upthrow is because I tested it with correct di, the same DI you should use for every zss throw basically all the time. Just because you come here and post things that are flat out incorrect and I correct you doesn't mean I'm shutting you down.

Also, the only thing I ever called "too hard" was dthrow chain grabs on characters like peach because it is HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE. You quoted the person who made that video in the first place, but then even he came in and admitted it wasn't feasible if they mixed up the DI.

But no, I have no imagination and I shut down all "mold breaking." That reminds me, while you were busy begging for a free sex kick edgeguard tool, did you even try my suggestion of using offstage blaster and using drift to mixup the height for gimps on spacies?

I never even tried to "shut down" this tech anyway. I just said that I don't know if it was useful, which is the honest answer. I haven't tested it, so I don't know if it was useful. I never said not to try it out, I never said it wasn't good. I even said it could be a good defensive option and combo to grab at early %s. However, when you said "You end up highly + on shield." which is just flat out incorrect, so I corrected you.

Excuse me, almighty melee player for using facts and numbers to refute your baseless claims rather than just accepting that in game skill obviously is the only factor in your knowledge of the game, as is proven by out lord and savoir mew2king's wise proofs about ike being op and fox only being op if you play him perfectly.

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

Grabs come out on frame 7.

You say you are the victim of an ad hominem, then you proceed to use:
ad hominem (poisoning the well)
moral high ground fallacy (pretty straightforward)
red herring (going completely off topic to distract from the fact that you were incredulous of this tech's usefulness earlier - platform cancelled aerials are decently commonly used on a lot of characters btw, Falco can do it with bair and it's really good)
shotgun argumentation (you jump all over the board here, attacking on so many fronts and they are all red herrings!)
appeal to authority (lol using the version of this where you say someone is wrong because of their accomplishments, and in doing so you use a strawman argument that they are saying they are right simply because of their accomplishments)
argument from silence (she didn't say she tried your edgeguarding methods, so she must not have!)


If logical fallacies a good argument makes then you must be wrong about everything you've mentioned here regarding frame data considering you didn't know that normal grabs come out on frame 7, a pretty basic and commonly understood fact about the game. Fallacies are of course dumb, and your the facts you presented in your post are actually useful and I appreciate them - both of you contribute real useful information to this character's growth so maybe you shouldn't be so venomous towards one another... I for one am glad that both of you are active posters here despite your emotional responses.

And yes lol I did go to the wikipedia list of logical fallacies, I just thought it was stupid for you to attack your opponent for using one and then clearly use so many in your own argument.

 

[Foo]

Grabs come out on frame 7.

Huh, thought it was a mix of 6 frame startup. Some of the frame data for characters list their standing grab as 6 frames of startup (like fox for instance, but after looking up the melee frame data, it's listed at 7 there) so either I'm misreading it or I found some slightly incorrect frame data. (http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-frame-data-3-5.387348/). So yeah, I was wrong about that. For some reason I always thought it was 6 *shrug* I suppose that does make uptilt a viable frame trap for upair. This tech might not be -3, though. Infinity collision said that it moved you onto the platform a few frames after hitlag, which would make it more minus on block. I don't know how it works, though.

Grabs come out on frame 7.

You say you are the victim of an ad hominem, then you proceed to use:
ad hominem (poisoning the well)
moral high ground fallacy (pretty straightforward)
red herring (going completely off topic to distract from the fact that you were incredulous of this tech's usefulness earlier - platform cancelled aerials are decently commonly used on a lot of characters btw, Falco can do it with bair and it's really good)
shotgun argumentation (you jump all over the board here, attacking on so many fronts and they are all red herrings!)
appeal to authority (lol using the version of this where you say someone is wrong because of their accomplishments, and in doing so you use a strawman argument that they are saying they are right simply because of their accomplishments)
argument from silence (she didn't say she tried your edgeguarding methods, so she must not have!)


If logical fallacies a good argument makes then you must be wrong about everything you've mentioned here regarding frame data considering you didn't know that normal grabs come out on frame 7, a pretty basic and commonly understood fact about the game. Fallacies are of course dumb, and your the facts you presented in your post are actually useful and I appreciate them - both of you contribute real useful information to this character's growth so maybe you shouldn't be so venomous towards one another... I for one am glad that both of you are active posters here despite your emotional responses.

And yes lol I did go to the wikipedia list of logical fallacies, I just thought it was stupid for you to attack your opponent for using one and then clearly use so many in your own argument.

As for those fallacies:

Poisoning the well: Not really sure where you are even getting that one, could you give me a quote? I never preemptively set up anything. If you are talking about the sex kick nair part, that's because she was saying zss needs a lingering hitbox in tier list speculation because it's too hard to edgeguard spacies without one.

Moral high ground: From my understanding, this isn't even really a fallacy, just a douchey thing to do in certain situations. Still, though, not sure where I took the moral high ground. There aren't morals involved in this on either side.

Red herring: I'll just leave this quote right here "I never even tried to "shut down" this tech anyway. I just said that I don't know if it was useful, which is the honest answer. I haven't tested it, so I don't know if it was useful. I never said not to try it out, I never said it wasn't good." Not sure how I can distract from something I clearly stated in the second to last paragraph. I am incredulous to it, because I haven't seen anything from it nor tested anything. I'm skeptical of every new tech I find out about .

Shotgun augmentation: I'm sorry, was I supposed to ask you for permission on what I am allowed to talk about? This is a forum, not a debate hall. A 270 word post is hardly "too much to possible respond to."

Appeal to authority: Think you missed the point on that last part buddy. I was being sarcastic. m2k is imfamous for having some seriously weird opinions on stuff, and I brought that up because what quality of player you are doesn't determine the quality of your opinion. Also, what strawman are you talking about? M2K said ike was OP and also said fox was only OP if you play him perfectly. I also never suggested that he was wrong because of his accomplishments. I never gave any reason. Those are just two things that basically nobody agrees with.

Argument from silence: Wait, asking a question equals making an assertion now? What? I asked if she had tried my edguarding technique, I didn't say she didn't.

I did technically use ad hominem with my "Excuse me, almighty melee player " comment, sure, but this isn't a debate hall. There is a also a key flaw in calling something like that ad hominem because I never said she was wrong because of it. The fallacy is using it as evidence. There is no fallacy in calling someone, let's say a "douche canoe" to be rude, but there is in dismissing someone arguments with that.

If logical fallacies a good argument makes then you must be wrong about everything you've mentioned here regarding frame data considering you didn't know that normal grabs come out on frame 7, a pretty basic and commonly understood fact about the game. Fallacies are of course dumb, and your the facts you presented in your post are actually useful and I appreciate them - both of you contribute real useful information to this character's growth so maybe you shouldn't be so venomous towards one another... I for one am glad that both of you are active posters here despite your emotional responses.

There is a difference between making a post like mine and saying things like "I'm sorry but you're an idiot." "Just stop posting lmfao." and "Maybe YOU'RE just bad and YOUR scene is bad."


I have never once said anything like this to her. I never called her bad, nor called her region bad. The closest I've come is asking how bad is the DI in her region, and from watching vids she's linked, it's pretty bad. It looks like the players (namely, the fox one) just doesn't know how to DI in the matchup. Rule 1 as spacy against zss grabs is DI down and away unless on ledge. That way, you are safe from everything and anything. However, she regularly was getting follow ups off of upthrow in her games because the fox would DI up and in. However, there were times where the fox would di down and away and there was no potential for a follow up. So, yeah, people in her region aren't DIng her throws correctly. (just like they are in my region too, but I know that won't last long)

Also, I don't want to be "venomous," but if someone says something like that to me, I might have a not so nice response.

ACTUALLY ON TOPIC HOLY **** WHAT IS THIS?!?!?!:

LET IT BE CLEAR, SINCE IT'S BEEN MISINTERPRETED TWICE. I NEVER SAID THIS TECH WASN'T USEFUL. I JUST SAID I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER IT WAS USEFUL OR NOT. NOT BECAUSE I'VE DECIDED IT'S BAD, BUT BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER USED, SEEN IT BE USED, OR TESTED IT BEFORE AND HONESTLY HAVE NO CLUE HOW IT WOULD EFFECT HER GAMEPLAY. ALL I SAID WAS THAT -3 ON SHIELD IS "meh" WHICH I STAND BY. HOWEVER, AS PHOOTBAG POINTED OUT, IT DOESN'T MATTER FOR THIS TECH SINCE IT'S PROBABLY BEST USED AS AN OOS OPTION.

(p.s. I'm really tired and made every paragraph of this post slowly and in no particular order, so it's probably a bit of a mess.)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Block data depends on the timing, as always. If you get the latest possible timing (3 frames into drop) then you'll land as soon as hitlag ends, otherwise you can add 1-2 frames disadvantage on block from air time.