Questions from an aspiring ninja

[Mecha1]

Hello all!

So, for a little background, I've played Melee "competitively" since about 2006. And by "competitively", I mean I knew about wavedashing, l-canceling and whatnot but was never very good due to limited chances to play against other people and my tendency to take frequent and lengthy (i.e. years long) breaks from the game, mostly due to frustration of the lack of opportunity to play.

But now, 9 years later, I still love the game and am in a place where the local scene holds weeklies with pretty good attendance levels. Unfortunately, due to my breaks, I've got a loooot of catching up to do. I never completely quit playing Melee, so my general tech skill is fine (though there are some thing I have questions on still), but my knowledge of matchups and the general mental aspect of the game is either dated or never existed in the first place.

So with that little ramble/intro out of the way, on to questions!

General Questions:

1. Dash dancing. Or rather, when and how to use it as Sheik. It has such a tiny range of motion, and the input for it has to be so fast, that I really can't see what use it has. It doesn't seem to offer any of the benefits of, say, Marth's DD whose range can let him constantly dart in and out of attack range. How and when is Sheik supposed to use it?
2. Edge Guarding. I know Sheik has an incredible punish/edge guarding game, but I have yet to quite figure it out. I know a lot of this is relative to who your opponent is (and I have a few character specific questions I will ask on this below), but could someone give me a brief/basic overview? Also, in general, would it be better to always have Sheik's back facing the opponent once they are off the stage so it is easier to jump up/out and bair if they recover high or WD>ledgehog if they go low?
   
3. Approaches. What are some of Sheik's best options for approaching? Back before my last break from Melee I used to play Falco, so I got into the habit of approaching with lasers/aerials and that habit has kind of stuck with my transfer over to Sheik. While Sheik has really good aerials, it seems like anytime I try to approach with one I get out-prioritized by an opponent's aerial. As for grounded approaches, aside form running in with a grab/dash attack, the only real approach I have figured out is run forward > WD back > if they wiff an attack, run in and punish. What else is there that I could mix in? Or should I generally be more concerned with trying to force my opponent to approach me rather than me approach them?

Character specific questions:

Fox:

How should Sheik approach this matchup? The only thing I know for sure is to dthrow tech chase to rack up percent then try to get them off the stage, but it feels like anytime I go against a Fox with a solid grasp on tech skill I just get overwhelmed by sheer speed.

What is the best way to counter shield pressure? What are the best options to approach? Or should I not approach and just wait for opportunities to punish the Fox when they make a mistake?

From what I can figure out from this matchup, Sheik's main advantage is edge guarding. I know (or think I know) the very basics: Are they just above ledge height? Needle. Are they recovering high? Bair. Low? Edgehog and drop and bair if the up-b can make it back to the stage or just roll on if they try to sweet spot. Simple enough, but I still fail a lot due to a couple of factors. First off: timing when to attack. If, for example, I am trying to dshash a recovering Fox out of up-b, do I start the dsmash when he yells "FIRE"? And for hitting Fox out of side-b, do I start the attack on the "ting" or the "whoosh" sound?

Lastly: Fox's u-air... I know I am supposed to SDI to avoid the second hit, but I've never really been able to find a straight answer to the best way to do this. Should I SDI to the side? Up? SDI is something I am terrible at in general so what is the best way to work out the timing? And, though I think I already know the answer to this, is ASDI alone enough to avoid the second hit from the u-air? I don't know much about ASDI so I don't know if it would move Sheik far enough.

Falco:
Same general questions as for Fox. How to counter shield pressure, how to approach (or should I even approuch), timings for hitting out of up-b and side-b. Only real different question is: How to deal with lasers? Is it just a case of I need to learn to power shield better? Or are there other ways around it?

Marth:
Thanks to SSBM Tutorials on YouTube, I understand the basic grab game for this MU, so my main question is... How the heck do I get in to get a grab in the first place? The range on that sword is ludicrous, and the reach of his grab is just silly. Not to mention his DD range makes it really easy for him to dart away from an attack then immediately run back in and grab me. Also, compared to the spacies, Marth seems to have a better off-stage game, so what is the best way to approach edge guarding him? Does Sheik's bair outrange Marth's fair where it is still safe?

Also, when getting juggled, what is the general rule of thumb for combo di? Away?

Falcon:
I'll be honest. I really have no idea how to fight this guy. He's so fast, and has so little landing lag from his nair and uair that I can almost never shield grab him after those before he has already dashed away again.

I actually played some friendlies against a Falcon at a weekly today and some of them were actually on the stream.

http://www.twitch.tv/stockcancelgaming/v/11250787 (from the beginning of the video to about 12 minutes is me vs the Falcon. He's not a Falcon main, but he was still good)

As you can probably tell, I don' really have any idea what I am doing most of the time in this matchup and just kind of make it up as I go.

For a more specific question rather than "how do I do the things": Is it possible to shield grab Falcon's fair? Or does it cause too much shield stun?


Okay... I think that wall of text is big enough for now I would greatly appreciate any and all help/advice/whatever!

 

[Seal]

For edge guarding, needle gimps are incredible. Bairs, nairs, and fairs will also do the trick depending on the situation. One of my favorite edge guards against spacies is force them down by nairing through their side-b and fair them during their up-b's start lag.

 

[dude it's raining]

DD:
Sheik's short dashdance/wd allow for compact and subtle spacing adjustments. You can use these to help take control of neutral.

Approaching:
Needles are really good at forcing approaches instead of doing it yourself.
If you must, you can space ftilts/fairs, do sh/fh needles. You can mix in run up -> shield, as long as your nairs oos are tight.

Edgeguarding:
There was a cool thread a while ago trying to optimize edgeguarding coverage. I'll look for it later.

Fox:
Don't let fox set the pace.
SDI his upair typically towards where he's coming from. I.e., first step is to normal di the uthrow behind him.

Marth:
Sheik is one of the best at close range. Stay inside the sword. Call him on his swings so he can't wall you out.
Combo di is typically down and away.

Falcon:
Sweetspot knee is safe on shield.
His techroll is so slow, you can tech chase easy. Go for jab resets, but watch out for sdi.
His recovery is so bad, you have all the options/control.
Your toolset is better than his. Don't let him space better than you.
His best asset is his speed, and your best response to that is needles.
Watchout, coz your weight also makes you combo food.


a lot of your q's can be answered by deep-browsing the sheik forums. I've compiled some links in my sheik guide.

 

[Mecha1]

Thank you both for the replies!

Edgeguarding:
There was a cool thread a while ago trying to optimize edgeguarding coverage. I'll look for it later.

Are you refering to http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-project-flowchart-edgeguarding.407074/

I read through it today and it was very informative!

Fox:
Don't let fox set the pace.
SDI his upair typically towards where he's coming from. I.e., first step is to normal di the uthrow behind him.

What are the best tools/options to prevent Fox from setting the pace? Needles? Or is Fox fast enough to just dance around them and keep coming?

Also: Thank you so much for the SDI info! I get rekt by Fox's uair so much and have never been able to find a really good, concise explanation for how to SDI out of it.

 

[dude it's raining]

Thank you both for the replies!





Are you refering to http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-project-flowchart-edgeguarding.407074/

I read through it today and it was very informative!



What are the best tools/options to prevent Fox from setting the pace? Needles? Or is Fox fast enough to just dance around them and keep coming?

Also: Thank you so much for the SDI info! I get rekt by Fox's uair so much and have never been able to find a really good, concise explanation for how to SDI out of it.

Don't let fox pressure you.
One of their big pressure tools is shield pressure. So you need to spend less time in your shield. Instead of shielding, dodge things with movement. Also, be ahead of the game with your spacing. If you needle camp effectively, it is more effective than his laser camping. You need to make him scared of the potential comboing you can do to him.
For the SDI, also search for KirbyKaze's guide to SDI'ing Fox's Uthrow->Uair. It's hilarious.

 

[dude it's raining]

Are you refering to http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-project-flowchart-edgeguarding.407074/
I read through it today and it was very informative!

Also:
http://smashboards.com/threads/spacie-gimps-discussion.394571/

 

[BRUJO~]

Sheik's dashdance is definitely less useful than Marth or Falcon's but any dashdance at all is useful. You threaten a greater area when dash dancing than you do when just standing. Also, just the movement of the dash dance is often enough to force a reaction. If I have an opponent who likes to just wait when they miss a tech, I'll dash dance to see if they get scared by it. Perhaps the most important part of the dash dance though (and the most under rated) is pivots. Pivot grab is good, but pivot ftilt is amazing. Its hard to do, requiring a one fram input with some very specific control stick movement, but if you can effectively and consistently use your dash dance to threaten ftilt, it becomes a very powerful tool

I think Sheik's neutral game is more complicated than thinking of it as just approach and defense. I think Sheik doesn't approach as much as she tries to pressure her opponent into giving up stage control, then when Sheik has stage control she can force them to make a mistake because they have limited options. Check out Druggedfox's blog portraitinsmash.blogspot.com, he has a great article called "Things Sheik Players aren't Doing." Read the section "fair: a microcosm of Sheik" or whatever it is caller. The way he describes the use of retreating ac fair to get stage control is very useful

 

[Ministry]

foxtrot is better then DD with sheik.