Sheik *Needle Lock* the f-tilt extension

[saviorslegacy]

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-raVrLKIJo
(a better version will come later... this is just the n00b version)

Here are the percents.
I haven't done the f-tilt lock> Needle combo testing yet. I do know it is not guaranteed on MK so ignore that in the video.




Fair makes him flip at: 64%




Fair makes him flip at: 63%

*notes*
Because of his low ground traction he slide quite far. You have to shield dash to get in close in time for the wake.



Fair makes her flip at: 61




This combo does not work on him.




Fair makes him flip at: 70%




Fair makes him flip at: 62%




This combo does not work on him.




Fair makes him flip at: 67%




Fair makes him flip at: 66%




This combo does not work on her.


:shiek:

Fair makes her flip at: 59%

*notes*
WTF same as Zelda!?



Fair makes him flip at: 68%




This combo does not work on him.




This combo does not work on her.




Fair makes her flip at: 57%




Fair makes him flip at: 62%




Fair makes them flip at: 61

*notes*
Stupid Nana can get in the way. -_-



This combo does not work on him.




Fair makes him flip at: 56%




Fair makes the devil flip at: 57%




Fair makes him flip at: 69%




Fair makes him flip at: 58%




Fair makes him flip at: 57%




Fair makes him flip at: 58%




Fair makes him flip at: 65%




Fair makes him flip at: 66%




Fair makes him flip at: 57%




sh*t

*notes*
We have no guaranteed combo on him!!! GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Fair makes him flip at: 55%




This combo does not work on him.




Fair makes him flip at: 68%




This combo does not work on him.




This combo does not work on him.




Fair makes him flip at: 60%




Fair makes him flip at: 66%




This combo does not work on him.




This combo does not work on him.




Fair makes it flip at: 55%




Fair makes him flip at: 69%




Fair makes him flip at: 63



So what is the moral here?
If enough people ask me to tell me something I have hidden away... I will do it. -_-
(but) I am not gonna tell you everything you bloody *******s! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[J4pu]

:shiek:

Fair makes him flip at: 59%

I think we need to get gimpyfish in here

 

[DanGR]

I'm more surprised he doesn't realize Zelda is so much floatier, and thereby not as nearly as susceptible to this.
hehehe

edit to the above: Actually, I'm surprised it "works" on Olimar- you know, being the 3rd floatiest character and all. Are you sure you hit with the same part of Sheik's f-air every time on every character? O.o

Still, you can simply DI correctly to avoid this- that or tech... or perhaps airdodge even. <_< When all is said and done, and we're evaluating Sheik as a character years from now this won't even be consisdered. It'll be a nice little trick until everyone DIs it correctly. Besides that I doubt I'll see much more to come from this.

Also, by "flip" I'm assuming you mean the opponent being sent into the tumbling animation, right?

 

[stealth3654]

Have you tried this with the opponent DIing the fair and breaking out of the tumble with an aerial?

 

[Smasher89]

Lol, so the needlestorm makes you lag as long so it´s possible to ftilt right after?

Then I think the grabrelease>needles>ftilt>usmash might work on MK ...

EDIT: Second one might have oppoturnity for grab>dacu...

 

[-Mars-]

K Saviors I actually decided to test for myself after you posted the video. Seems that after you force the get up you need to hit with the tip of the ftilt for it to lead right into an tipper........i had to work forward to hit with usmash if i hit closer with the ftilt.

Good stuff man, subscribed and i'll be looking more into this later...........For people doubting this I don't think they have the ability to tech if you hit with the needles storm in time.....but they can DI up after the fair I believe.

That being said nobody cares enough about Sheik to really pay much attention to this so i'm going to use it.

Also if you force a get up on MK or Pikachu or whoever we can GR>usmash on.....it's another guaranteed tipper.

Edit: Innocent Roads found this a long time ago I believe and I just never paid much attention to it but it's nice to take a second look at it and have some percents in one thread.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I think we need to get gimpyfish in here

I was sleepy and I was just pasting that part in and forgot to edit it.

Still, you can simply DI correctly to avoid this- that or tech... or perhaps airdodge even. <_< When all is said and done, and we're evaluating Sheik as a character years from now this won't even be consisdered. It'll be a nice little trick until everyone DIs it correctly. Besides that I doubt I'll see much more to come from this.

Also, by "flip" I'm assuming you mean the opponent being sent into the tumbling animation, right?

Maybe, it works as a tech chase and at certain percents/on certain character all they can do is tech, DI wont help them.

yes

Have you tried this with the opponent DIing the fair and breaking out of the tumble with an aerial?

Yes I have. Notice how it doesn't work on some people.
Also, air dodging works better.

Lol, so the needlestorm makes you lag as long so it´s possible to ftilt right after?

Then I think the grabrelease>needles>ftilt>usmash might work on MK ...

EDIT: Second one might have oppoturnity for grab>dacu...

Shield dash if need be.

Wait what...... GR> Needle> f-tilt
Uhhhh... good luck getting the f-tilt in. <,<

GR> DACUS is known from this

K Saviors I actually decided to test for myself after you posted the video. Seems that after you force the get up you need to hit with the tip of the ftilt for it to lead right into an tipper........i had to work forward to hit with usmash if i hit closer with the ftilt.

Good stuff man, subscribed and i'll be looking more into this later...........For people doubting this I don't think they have the ability to tech if you hit with the needles storm in time.....but they can DI up after the fair I believe.

That being said nobody cares enough about Sheik to really pay much attention to this so i'm going to use it.

Also if you force a get up on MK or Pikachu or whoever we can GR>usmash on.....it's another guaranteed tipper.

Edit: Innocent Roads found this a long time ago I believe and I just never paid much attention to it but it's nice to take a second look at it and have some percents in one thread.

Yes I know, it has the sweet spot hit box that sucks them in the most.

They can tech, but it is really really hard to do, near impossible.

Wait, when did he find it? Link me please.

 

[-Mars-]

Huh checked his channel and couldn't find it.......my bad man good find

 

[Judo777]

How much decay are u using i didnt feel like testing for all decay i just did max, min and half max and half didnt work cause its not strong enough to hit into tumble animation. No decay worked but Im sorry to say it is very easy to tech i was doing 1 hand on each controller and i got the tech off effortlessly. Also just holding shield makes u airdodge then shield the needles.

All this said it is still a good find. It is a no risk high reward situation that forces ur oppoenent to make a decision and all of the techs did result in getting hit by needles or rolling right infront of sheik. Of course airdodge and shielding is the best answer. On a side note its worth a try but good players try to avoid bouncing off the ground at all costs (its like one of the worst positions in the game to be in) everyone i play almost never bounces unless forced to.

Again tho its a no-risk high-reward situation so why not.

 

[J4pu]

good stuff savior, looks like a great attack string with only average chances of them getting out.
That's like brawl's equivalent of a melee tech-chase combo, so yeah, *thumb's up
specifically the Fair hitting a grounded opponent looks the best

 

[saviorslegacy]

How much decay are u using i didnt feel like testing for all decay i just did max, min and half max and half didnt work cause its not strong enough to hit into tumble animation. No decay worked but Im sorry to say it is very easy to tech i was doing 1 hand on each controller and i got the tech off effortlessly. Also just holding shield makes u airdodge then shield the needles.

All this said it is still a good find. It is a no risk high reward situation that forces ur oppoenent to make a decision and all of the techs did result in getting hit by needles or rolling right infront of sheik. Of course airdodge and shielding is the best answer. On a side note its worth a try but good players try to avoid bouncing off the ground at all costs (its like one of the worst positions in the game to be in) everyone i play almost never bounces unless forced to.

Again tho its a no-risk high-reward situation so why not.

*sorry, but I had to cheat on the first night before I started Tristan


Anyways, I didn't decay it.
Did you follow up with Needle's by buffering? It should lower teching frames making it harder.
Not everyone can air dodge, and even more so, not everyone can air dodge when DIing up.

good stuff savior, looks like a great attack string with only average chances of them getting out.
That's like brawl's equivalent of a melee tech-chase combo, so yeah, *thumb's up
specifically the Fair hitting a grounded opponent looks the best

Actually, f-tilt> Fair> Needle Lock is the best since it starts from a f-tilt.
If done correctly it should be as effective as grounded Fair. On some characters you can lead into a Fair straight out of a f-tilt lock and it is a legit and tight. To bad I didn't show it in the vid. -_-

 

[Leafplayer452]

I like it, we should all start experimenting more with tactics like ground locking and footstool combos more, since they are both amazing to watch and most of the time worth doing them

 

[Judo777]

*sorry, but I had to cheat on the first night before I started Tristan


Anyways, I didn't decay it.
Did you follow up with Needle's by buffering? It should lower teching frames making it harder.
Not everyone can air dodge, and even more so, not everyone can air dodge when DIing up.

Actually, f-tilt> Fair> Needle Lock is the best since it starts from a f-tilt.
If done correctly it should be as effective as grounded Fair. On some characters you can lead into a Fair straight out of a f-tilt lock and it is a legit and tight. To bad I didn't show it in the vid. -_-

Yea i buffered the needles. Its definitely a good find because even when i did tech i ate the needles i ate the needles anyway or rolledright at sheik = bad lol

 

[thexsunrosered]

Innocentroads did find this before. I remember watching it. Things like this is what I was talking about as far as community goes, we each know SO MANY little things that help out our individual game so much that if we brought it all together, we'd **** so hard.

For instance, if you Fthrow a falco at mid percents, 40-50ish, you can normally get a tipper off. This works for marth too that I'm sure of, I just haven't really played enough of anyone else to say otherwise. Little things like this will make us SOOOOO much better, which is why I keep telling you not to be so stingy saviors >.>

 

[saviorslegacy]

Innocentroads did find this before. I remember watching it. Things like this is what I was talking about as far as community goes, we each know SO MANY little things that help out our individual game so much that if we brought it all together, we'd **** so hard.

For instance, if you Fthrow a falco at mid percents, 40-50ish, you can normally get a tipper off. This works for marth too that I'm sure of, I just haven't really played enough of anyone else to say otherwise. Little things like this will make us SOOOOO much better, which is why I keep telling you not to be so stingy saviors >.>

I can honestly say that if Ankoku, Tristan and I put our heads together that we would have about 99.9% of all Sheik knowledge. <3 gets more than an honorable mention in this as well.

Now if you want my opinion then here it is:
You are correct and incorrect. Since Sheik is so flexible she can do many many things. There have been many things found that advance Sheik. If a single Sheik player mastered everything that Sheik had and could do it close to 100% of the time then he would practically be maining a high tier character. However, when you do not have your **** down Sheik is a low tier. The most important trixies that Sheik has are what will be listed below:

f-tilt lock
0 - 30% combo's/strings that can set up for f-tilt
Needle wave bouncing
out spacing with chain and punishing with chain
Predicting and punish with Vanish
DACUS
punishing attacks with DACUS, DA and Needle's
punishing anything they sets them up for tipper DACUS
chain locking
needle locking
spacing perfectly
needle camping
all GR options
knowing how to handle every stage
using a mixture of SH Nairs and jabs to overwhelm your foe with speed. You will be moving around quite well and everything will be 3 frames or less.
playing the throw games
transforming wisely
knowing how to use Zelda
using u-tilt as an anti air
knowing how to use her gimp tools on each match up
swan combo
saltus combo (for the few it does work on)
narutake step
Nair OoS
f-tilt OoS
DA OoS
baiting and punishing
Vanish buffering
vanish canceling
vanish combo
naner lock
naner combo's
instant wall jump and Bair planking
FH Needle Canceling
the knowledge on how to protect your weakness's


Once your learn all of those you will be a pro Sheik who take advantage off all of her tricks. Small tricks come from those. You can alter anything to be your own. These small variations and Sheik in general is like ad dance. You can do all of the basic stuff like normal, but when you throw in a bunch of fancy dance moves it makes you look better. Except with Sheik, it makes her more effective.
However, once you have learned how to penetrate ones weakness you have already won. Then you must protect your weakness's. Her special trixies are simply things to make you unpredictable.

 

[Judo777]

I can honestly say that if Ankoku, Tristan and I put our heads together that we would have about 99.9% of all Sheik knowledge. <3 gets more than an honorable mention in this as well.

Now if you want my opinion then here it is:
You are correct and incorrect. Since Sheik is so flexible she can do many many things. There have been many things found that advance Sheik. If a single Sheik player mastered everything that Sheik had and could do it close to 100% of the time then he would practically be maining a high tier character. However, when you do not have your **** down Sheik is a low tier. The most important trixies that Sheik has are what will be listed below:

f-tilt lock
0 - 30% combo's/strings that can set up for f-tilt
Needle wave bouncing
out spacing with chain and punishing with chain
Predicting and punish with Vanish
DACUS
punishing attacks with DACUS, DA and Needle's
punishing anything they sets them up for tipper DACUS
chain locking
needle locking
spacing perfectly
needle camping
all GR options
knowing how to handle every stage
using a mixture of SH Nairs and jabs to overwhelm your foe with speed. You will be moving around quite well and everything will be 3 frames or less.
playing the throw games
transforming wisely
knowing how to use Zelda
using u-tilt as an anti air
knowing how to use her gimp tools on each match up
swan combo
saltus combo (for the few it does work on)
narutake step
Nair OoS
f-tilt OoS
DA OoS
baiting and punishing
Vanish buffering
vanish canceling
vanish combo
naner lock
naner combo's
instant wall jump and Bair planking
FH Needle Canceling
the knowledge on how to protect your weakness's


Once your learn all of those you will be a pro Sheik who take advantage off all of her tricks. Small tricks come from those. You can alter anything to be your own. These small variations and Sheik in general is like ad dance. You can do all of the basic stuff like normal, but when you throw in a bunch of fancy dance moves it makes you look better. Except with Sheik, it makes her more effective.
However, once you have learned how to penetrate ones weakness you have already won. Then you must protect your weakness's. Her special trixies are simply things to make you unpredictable.

This is true (or has similar concepts) for every single character in the game...... If you learn how to do everything perfect such as perfect spacing then you will automatically be the best player in the world.

On a side note even if you learn how to do everything perfectly this does not change what tier sheik is. For example Shugo is (idk if he swapped or not) an absolutely outstanding sonic user. Shugo knows his stuff and is great for it. However just because shugo is amazing doesnt mean sonic is any better of a character than he is already. Shugo wins simply because he outplays his opponent by alot. However I would say that if shugo used a different character like MK as well as he used sonic then he would probably be a much better player (btw i think thats who he swapped to). Just because Shugo knows how to do everything with sonic doesnt mean that sonic isnt still a bad character or at least not a great character.

 

[-dMT-]

So... one thing I never really looked into... when the opponents have flipped over and they get hit by needles, they lose the ability to roll right? Also they aren't able to react immediately when they stand up I presume, sicne the MK was up for a few frames before eating the ftilt > usmash tipper.

If this is true to the frames, I can see this helping my game significantly.

 

[-Mars-]

So... one thing I never really looked into... when the opponents have flipped over and they get hit by needles, they lose the ability to roll right? Also they aren't able to react immediately when they stand up I presume, sicne the MK was up for a few frames before eating the ftilt > usmash tipper.

If this is true to the frames, I can see this helping my game significantly.

Yes they are forced to do a straight get-up.

I've messed around with this and it still only works if your opponent for some reason decides not to tech which isn't often. This will help immensely against scrubs I suppose.

 

[-dMT-]

Yes they are forced to do a straight get-up.

I've messed around with this and it still only works if your opponent for some reason decides not to tech which isn't often. This will help immensely against scrubs I suppose.

You'd be surprised how often people will miss techs, especially from a hit that sends them so far off stage. Regardless, even if for the occasional situation this is definitely good to know.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I quit before I finished working on this.
The next thing I was going to post was the decay percents. With decay each move gives you a minus on when it can be used for this combo. Figure roughly -7 to -8 (this is attacking with the same move in a row) on each move per time that have used it to get it to combo correctly.
Also, the other thing I was going to post was that this can be started with Nair and Bair as well.
I can't remember exactly, but I think that Bair is the middle, Fair is the weak and Nair is the strong. Figure a 10% difference between each move.
So lets say that a non decayed Fair flips MK at 63%. A non decayed Bair will flip him at 53% and a non decayed Nair will flip him at 43%... give or take a few.

Now, if you attacked with a Nair at 38%, it should make them flip if you attack with Nair directly after this time because 38+(I think it does like 11.. right?)11= 49 which is close enough that it should make him flip.

Now lets be honest, how often will you hit with Bair, Nair or Fair frequently at the correct percents? A: Not terribly often. That is why I named this thread the f-tilt extension. What I was planning on getting at was the fact that it works perfectly fine out of a decayed f-tilt. Lets say you f-tilt MK at 30ish percents. Lets say that you do a bunch and end with a grab (less damage than DSmash or u-tilt) or simply shield and let him try to attack you (as so many people do). At 50% he needs 2, maybe 3 f-tilt to get him to the proper flipping percents. Simply end with a Fair, fast fall and lock him. If you fail you don't have to really worry because seriously, can he punish you throwing needles after he has been hit with a Fair? I tested it a little bit and my friend (if memory serves me correctly) was able to SDI up and try to use Uair but he still got hit by the needles.


If you were wondering... I was using this before I made the thread. I have used it against both CPU's and humans. It takes more discipline as far as knowing your numbers and attempting to commit to a combo that can very easily change (meaning they get out, you mess up or w/e). When all else fails... jabx2> grab. lol



Sorry for not having all of my info 100% (how much damage a move does right or when they absolutely flip) right now. But you all get the point I am trying to make, right?
Oh, and one more thing. Since you used f-tilt in this combo it is already decayed for f-tilt> USmash.


1 more thing that I forgot to mention.
If you hit them correctly you can't tech this. I was testing a while back (a looong while back) about how ground locks work. One of the thing I found was that you can start a ground lock animation 1 or 2 frames before they hit the actual ground. If you mess with Marth you can see this. Knock him on the ground and let him lie there and then throw your needles. If he is on his back and not his face every needle will miss him. Now if you catch him before he lays out flat almost every needle will hit him. If you hit him on that 1 to 2 frames window every needle will lock Marth.

 

[Judo777]

I quit before I finished working on this.
The next thing I was going to post was the decay percents. With decay each move gives you a minus on when it can be used for this combo. Figure roughly -7 to -8 (this is attacking with the same move in a row) on each move per time that have used it to get it to combo correctly.
Also, the other thing I was going to post was that this can be started with Nair and Bair as well.
I can't remember exactly, but I think that Bair is the middle, Fair is the weak and Nair is the strong. Figure a 10% difference between each move.
So lets say that a non decayed Fair flips MK at 63%. A non decayed Bair will flip him at 53% and a non decayed Nair will flip him at 43%... give or take a few.

Now, if you attacked with a Nair at 38%, it should make them flip if you attack with Nair directly after this time because 38+(I think it does like 11.. right?)11= 49 which is close enough that it should make him flip.

Now lets be honest, how often will you hit with Bair, Nair or Fair frequently at the correct percents? A: Not terribly often. That is why I named this thread the f-tilt extension. What I was planning on getting at was the fact that it works perfectly fine out of a decayed f-tilt. Lets say you f-tilt MK at 30ish percents. Lets say that you do a bunch and end with a grab (less damage than DSmash or u-tilt) or simply shield and let him try to attack you (as so many people do). At 50% he needs 2, maybe 3 f-tilt to get him to the proper flipping percents. Simply end with a Fair, fast fall and lock him. If you fail you don't have to really worry because seriously, can he punish you throwing needles after he has been hit with a Fair? I tested it a little bit and my friend (if memory serves me correctly) was able to SDI up and try to use Uair but he still got hit by the needles.


If you were wondering... I was using this before I made the thread. I have used it against both CPU's and humans. It takes more discipline as far as knowing your numbers and attempting to commit to a combo that can very easily change (meaning they get out, you mess up or w/e). When all else fails... jabx2> grab. lol



Sorry for not having all of my info 100% (how much damage a move does right or when they absolutely flip) right now. But you all get the point I am trying to make, right?
Oh, and one more thing. Since you used f-tilt in this combo it is already decayed for f-tilt> USmash.


1 more thing that I forgot to mention.
If you hit them correctly you can't tech this. I was testing a while back (a looong while back) about how ground locks work. One of the thing I found was that you can start a ground lock animation 1 or 2 frames before they hit the actual ground. If you mess with Marth you can see this. Knock him on the ground and let him lie there and then throw your needles. If he is on his back and not his face every needle will miss him. Now if you catch him before he lays out flat almost every needle will hit him. If you hit him on that 1 to 2 frames window every needle will lock Marth.

Interesting post however i gotta say i think ur mistaken about being able to lock him before he its the ground. Needle lock works just like a jab lock in that if u hit them with a certain type of hitbox (needles work obviously) during their bounce animation after tumble state they will repeat their bounce state until hit again or they will auto stand up. The window is bigger than you say for needle locks (id say about 10-12 frames). And u cannot needle lock someone who hasn't hit the ground because they haven't begun their bounce animation yet. Since that is the case this setup can ALWAYS be avoided with a well timed tech.

However that doesn't mean this setup isn't good. I use it all the its a great no risk high reward situation and i recommend looking for it always.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Interesting post however i gotta say i think ur mistaken about being able to lock him before he its the ground. Needle lock works just like a jab lock in that if u hit them with a certain type of hitbox (needles work obviously) during their bounce animation after tumble state they will repeat their bounce state until hit again or they will auto stand up. The window is bigger than you say for needle locks (id say about 10-12 frames). And u cannot needle lock someone who hasn't hit the ground because they haven't begun their bounce animation yet. Since that is the case this setup can ALWAYS be avoided with a well timed tech.

However that doesn't mean this setup isn't good. I use it all the its a great no risk high reward situation and i recommend looking for it always.

I made a post listing every move that lock in the game. Ike's Fair also locks.
Here's the thing, any move that does not cause their feet to leave the ground locks. Sheiks jab causes the feet to barely leave the ground at every percent. This is a perfect example.

You are correct, locking them does make them repeat the animation where they hit the ground, but they cannot tech it.

There are two ways to make them get up.
#1 Lock them right after they hit the ground. If you let them lay on the ground for a little bit (and thus forfeiting the chance to make them stand up) you can still make them stand up by locking them ant interrupting their landing on a specific frame.
#2 Hit them with a strong locking move like Ike's Fair.


Notice how they repeat the falling animation but cannot tech it?
There is more to this mechanic than what we know of. For example, Pikachu can hit a waking opponent many times with one thunder (I couldn't find the vid, but requested it on the Pika boards). I think it has to deal with it being an electric hit box.
Anyways, you can pretty make this combo become a DI up or else combo. It is possible to keep from being locked. All you gotta do is DI up + an attack to get you out of the tumble. This combo might not even be effective on Marth. Thing is though, it is still a low risk high reward combo, and that is why I like it. And another thing, platform don't get in our way you stupid bat! YI and Starfox Armada does though.... stupid stage tilt. Owell, you can figure out those by a little bit of messing around and some quick math. Ground that goes up might help us some because it might make it to where they can't DI up to escape it.... to bad the needles might not hit them......


So you actually use this eh? cool

 

[Judo777]

I made a post listing every move that lock in the game. Ike's Fair also locks.
Here's the thing, any move that does not cause their feet to leave the ground locks. Sheiks jab causes the feet to barely leave the ground at every percent. This is a perfect example.

You are correct, locking them does make them repeat the animation where they hit the ground, but they cannot tech it.

There are two ways to make them get up.
#1 Lock them right after they hit the ground. If you let them lay on the ground for a little bit (and thus forfeiting the chance to make them stand up) you can still make them stand up by locking them ant interrupting their landing on a specific frame.
#2 Hit them with a strong locking move like Ike's Fair.


Notice how they repeat the falling animation but cannot tech it?
There is more to this mechanic than what we know of. For example, Pikachu can hit a waking opponent many times with one thunder (I couldn't find the vid, but requested it on the Pika boards). I think it has to deal with it being an electric hit box.
Anyways, you can pretty make this combo become a DI up or else combo. It is possible to keep from being locked. All you gotta do is DI up + an attack to get you out of the tumble. This combo might not even be effective on Marth. Thing is though, it is still a low risk high reward combo, and that is why I like it. And another thing, platform don't get in our way you stupid bat! YI and Starfox Armada does though.... stupid stage tilt. Owell, you can figure out those by a little bit of messing around and some quick math. Ground that goes up might help us some because it might make it to where they can't DI up to escape it.... to bad the needles might not hit them......


So you actually use this eh? cool

idk about ikes fair but i know with multi hit moves like needles if you hit them when they are already down the first needle repeats the animation and the second one locks them if that makes sense.

However i am still saying that if they get hit by fair, the only way to lock them is hit them when they hit the ground. When they hit the ground the first time (before you hit them with needles) they can tech it. If they get hit by needles and have not teched yet they are locked. However u get invincible frame when u tech so if teched right they can avoid most of this. At certain percents fair to needles is legit because even if they tech they are getting hit cause the move is too big unless they tech roll fwd (in which case just punish). However fair to needle where the needles lock is not guarenteed cause they can tech the second they hit the ground before the needles hit.

If the needles hit before they hit the ground it ends the tumble state and doesnt lock.

Idkk about ikes fair never heard of it.

 

[saviorslegacy]

What I am trying to tell you is that if you do it correctly it is: any locking move > teching

There are a lot of things that people over look. They either think it isn't useful or just don't care. Useless things can lead to a better understanding, both in Smash and in life.

 

[Zankoku]

I still disagree on the basis that if you hit them with the attack before they are able to tech, then they haven't yet reached the ground. Video proof for either side would be nice, so I might consider frame-testing it in the future.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I still disagree on the basis that if you hit them with the attack before they are able to tech, then they haven't yet reached the ground. Video proof for either side would be nice, so I might consider frame-testing it in the future.

I'll see if I can put something together tomorrow. I can't tonight though.


:EDIT:
Here's the Pikachu vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=530U-ZMz0Xk

 

[Zankoku]

You can't tech from a footstool.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You can't tech from a footstool.

yeaaaaaaaah......

 

[Judo777]

You can't tech from a footstool.

Saviours what hes saying is that footstools are the one excepetion in the game to teching. Every other instance where oab o other move locks exist can be teched.

So for instance fair to needles can be teched because u aren't footstooling them.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Saviours what hes saying is that footstools are the one excepetion in the game to teching. Every other instance where oab o other move locks exist can be teched.

So for instance fair to needles can be teched because u aren't footstooling them.

-_- I done a lot of research on these things I know footstools can't be teched.
What I am trying to say is that you can interrupt the point where you can tech.
I need to look back into this to make sure that I am right. So give me a bit so that I can test + make s video to show what I am talking about.

 

[-Mars-]

I tried this out back when you first posted it. Doesn't work.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I tried this out back when you first posted it. Doesn't work.

Wrong, I have used it and expanded on it.

I done some testing. It appears like there is no weird frame. I was confused.