Shiek VS ICs

[itwasluck13]

ive been playing shiek for a while. but everytime i play my friends ICs i cant barely do anything. the only decent thing ive found to do is down smash. any advice?

 

[Zankoku]

Don't stand still, avoid getting grabbed by taking advantage of platforms, avoid Final Destination, take Nana out early for a much easier matchup for the remainder of the stock (you can grab again!).

 

[Takumaru]

Oh no, don't listen to ankoku. You want to stand there and let the ICs grab you because you have so many uh... "openings" we'll say. Oh and leave nana alone she's no threat. Avoid platform at all costs or you'll get *****.

Don't listen to anything I said above, it's just my instincts as an ICs player... What you really want to do is try to seperate them ASAP and kill the NPC IC as soon as possible. If you don't know which one it is because you get caught up in the match, the NPCIC is the lighter colored one, ALWAYS. (Pink, yellow, white, light blue if there is a light red popo) As long as there are two ICs your grab game is almost non existant and they can grab all you want. ICs have so many desynch tricks that can screw you up it's not even funny. Watch out for the ice block + grab, yes at the same time, if the off-climber uses and ice block DO NOT shield it, WD back a few times and if you have stored needles, use those -> a quick dsmash.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Honestly I have never played ICs with sheik considering I am the only ICs player in my area (as far as I know that is...) so the advice I gave you is from an ICs perspective. Oh, ICs are weaker in the air so the more you keep them there (ftilt) the better for you. I said weaker, not helpless.

I found some nice vids of Sheik vs ICs you'll be interested in too:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OKT2E_MJX50&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RrowCN4LZ_Y&mode=related&search=

 

[itwasluck13]

thanks for the advice. that helps a lot. the main thing that beats the hell out of me is a grab to a fsmash. but ive learned to get out of that with a fast tech. then the other thing that gets me a lot is a wavedash and then a c-stick dsmash. but that only gets me when im trying to recover. do you have any recovery tips?

 

[h1roshi]

yeah ban, FD, you want stages with platforms to get away from their grabs. get rid of nana as fast as you can. its a tough matchup and i dont have much advice seeing as the there are only 2 IC players in FL and they are both top 10. so i have no chanve against them.also, one of them retired so i dont really have the opportunity to train against them...peace

-hiroshi

 

[adumbrodeus]

Transform perhaps?

I've always had better luck with Zelda against them then Sheik, since they hard-counter Sheik.

 

[max32090]

avoid getting grabbed and always chose levels with platforms not corneria or fd. i found foward and down smash to be really useful

 

[Negative Zero]

I play ICs, but if I were somehow in that situation, what I'd do is try and land a dash attack or an aerial, using any possible mindgames to not get shield grabbed. If you can separate them even slightly, then you can probably take out Nana.

 

[Takumaru]

Hmmm... recovering vs ICs eh? Get to a ledge and play vanish games with them (I think it's called the shino stall?) and find an opening slap them. The most obvious opening is after they wiff a Fsmash, be careful and aware of if both ICs smashed or not. Not many IC players have the presence of mind to keep a desynch up while edgeguarding as it's... difficult to keep one going that long, so after a fsmash is your safest option. Recovering takes a lot of patience and a lot of experience. Another thing you can try is wavedashing onto the stage -> dsmash or wavelanding on a platform.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Pressure their shield via platforms. Bair. Ftilt. Jab. Run away. Needles. Run away. Use all your low-lag attacks and space properly so they can never get you out of their shield. I just hit and run until I see an opportunity to separate Nana and **** her, and then it's easy.

 

[Speedsk8er]

I never understood how we "counter" Sheik. She ***** my Nana so hard and then ***** me. Sheik in general is a hard match-up for me.

But yeah seperate us and then **** Nana.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I never understood how we "counter" Sheik. She ***** my Nana so hard and then ***** me. Sheik in general is a hard match-up for me.

But yeah seperate us and then **** Nana.

It's only at very high levels of play, and desynching is an absolute must for this to work, but it does, trust me, it primarily has to do with ICs' evil chain grabs plus wobbling, and the fact that it's very difficult for Sheik to space versus ICs (because she primarily depends on low-range melee attacks like her fair), which hurts an almost totally melee character badly, making Sheik far more vulnerable to chaingrabbing, wobbling, and the disjointed hitbox their attacks have then normal characters.

Oh, and Nana stops Sheik's almighty chaingrab.

 

[Takumaru]

Nana stops Sheik's almighty chaingrab.

Fixed. We gimp her grab game and combo her easily and the random attacks from the offclimber after a forced disconnection (note I didn't say desynch...) messes up her combos. She's also easy to edgeguard.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Funny, because I play a non-chaingrabbing, non-wobbling IC.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Funny, because I play a non-chaingrabbing, non-wobbling IC.

A bad one?

 

[max32090]

how do you play a non chain grabbing ic's???

 

[Jack Lavender]

If it's a tourney match, consider countering picking with rainbow cruise or pokefloats. When i used to main Ic's i always did very bad on those stages.

Stages with platforms i feel aren't too great for counter picks. IC's Uair makes the platforms very unsafe, aside from maybe dreamland.

Or you could use Zelda, but only if you lost the first round really badly and you feel like there's really no hope with a even a stage counter pick.

I doubt zelda does well against them, but how many people know how to fight zelda? The harder hitting back and foward air might do the trick. i can't remember if her aerials stun shields or not. If they do, i guess she has a chance?

Mostly intermediate advice. Hope it helps. Good luck

 

[Magus420]

Zelda does extremely well vs ICs imo. Space kicks on the way down, f-smash, use the d-smash's fast speed and frontal invincibility to cover yourself defensively, and smash DI up and jump out of d-air chains if you happen to get grabbed. They have a very difficult time getting past her range and strong anti-ground game. Combine that with those moves also doing a great job of separating/poking/affecting each climber differently, as well as being able to kill the 2nd climber at low damage rather easily it's like the only matchup Zelda is better at compared to Sheik, lol.

Even though I use Peach as one of my mains I actually prefer using Zelda against them. Though I don't think Zelda does quite as well or better than Peach, the fact that most IC players have so much Peach experience and little to no experience fighting Zelda makes it the better counterpick.

 

[adumbrodeus]

how do you play a non chain grabbing ic's???

There's actually a pretty good at about that on the IC character specific forum, granted it's mainly built around the idea of people being **** good at avoiding grabs, but it works fine for not grabbing period.

Zelda does extremely well vs ICs imo. Space kicks, f-smash, use the d-smash's fast speed and frontal invincibility to cover yourself defensively, and smash DI up and jump out of d-air chains if you happen to get grabbed. They have a very difficult time getting past her range and strong anti-ground game. Combine that with those moves also doing a great job of separating/poking/affecting each climber differently, as well as being able to kill the 2nd climber at low damage rather easily it's like the only matchup Zelda is better at compared to Sheik, lol.

Even though I use Peach as one of my mains I actually prefer using Zelda against them. Though I don't think Zelda does quite as well or better than Peach, the fact that most IC players have so much Peach experience and little to no experience fighting Zelda makes it the better counterpick.

Yeah, especially since very few of their attacks outrange her lightning and reverse lightning kicks, and even those that do, she has better priority and they come out faster, and her f-smash is beautiful if you end up in range (especially since, if you miss, it recovers fast).

Such match-ups are few and far between, but to a degree, it depends on the skill of the player, I think Ness v. Zelda is easier then Ness v. Sheik for instance but it might just be a function of our relative skill level.

 

[Speedsk8er]

A bad one?

Pretty much.

And yeah, Zelda WRECKS me.

 

[Winston]

Such match-ups are few and far between, but to a degree, it depends on the skill of the player, I think Ness v. Zelda is easier then Ness v. Sheik for instance but it might just be a function of our relative skill level.

Ness vs Zelda is much easier than Ness vs. Sheik.

ICs don't hard counter Sheik; Sheik DOES hard counter ness.

 

[DippnDots]

Might as well use Sheik's down-b in this match up and have fun, because either way you're ****ed.

 

[itwasluck13]

ok, now i need some tips for marth. i have played marths, but none of them are very good. and now im starting to play more advanced marths and they are kicking me around like a hacky sack. any advice?

 

[itwasluck13]

and dippndots. wtf? im not ****ed at all. i can beat them fairly easily now.

 

[Tope]

There are plenty of threads open about beating Marth, I suggest you look at those.