Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Argos]

I mean, Marvel vs Capcom 3 literally didn't have Megaman in it so I'm not sure where the idea that Smash is more random or unrepresentative than other crossover games is coming from.

 

[UserKev]

What I don't like about Smash 4's advertisement is how its "In your face advertisement" Its too strong and distracting. The fanbase knows this but still choose to write idealistic responses.

Its historic to have Link Vs. Cloud but as what's been said, it shouldn't have worked like that because instead of actually having it historic, you turned it into desperation. Too much DLC was already released before Cloud.

What I also noticed, Mario, Nintendo's guide, doesn't feel apart of Smash 4. Mario feels so absent from the roster now. I mainly just see Bowser, Peach, Yoshi and Bowser Jr. DLC should have just been Mewtwo, Roy, Lucas and Bayonetta. Smash 5 should have been Ryu and Cloud.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What I don't like about Smash 4's advertisement is how its "In your face advertisement" Its too strong and distracting. The fanbase knows this but still choose to write idealistic responses.

Its historic to have Link Vs. Cloud but as what's been said, it shouldn't have worked like that because instead of actually having it historic, you turned it into desperation. Too much DLC was already released before Cloud.

What I also noticed, Mario, Nintendo's guide, doesn't feel apart of Smash 4. Mario feels so absent from the roster now. I mainly just see Bowser, Peach, Yoshi and Bowser Jr. DLC should have just been Mewtwo, Roy, Lucas and Bayonetta. Smash 5 should have been Ryu and Cloud.

Stop posting
"The advertising is too in your face" What the **** do you mean with this? The marketing of the game? Cause that's calling doing it's job. The roster which you ******* about earlier? People already explained that it's going to feel more blatant over time as Nintendo's biggest characters are already in the game.
"The fanbase this, the fanbase that" You keep saying you're above the fanbase but by constantly whining you're not fooling anyone.
"Too much DLC! Ruined the impact!" Except no it didn't. Considering all the discussion and debates that sparked from Cloud, you are OBJECTIVELY wrong in this regard.
DLC is optional from the game, it NEEDS to make people go "Wow! I REALLY want that!" which is a good thing as a fighting game's selling point is it's main characters.
"Mario doesn't feel part of Smash 4" I'm going to need whatever it is that you're smoking, no other franchise has as many items, stages, songs, trophies and characters. Plus, one would argue Mario feels MORE home here than other installments due to his reputation as a top tier

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Corrin's in an unique spot as is. He's not advertising so much as "this is a relevant option and we wanted to use the moveset". It's just the timing is before Fates released in other areas of the world, so it's effectively advertising to some degree.

The only DLC that's really advertising outside of somewhat with Corrin(as it's not hat simple with him) are some of the costumes, like Inklings.

The reason that they use assets from the latest games is simply a matter of relevance. People will recognize the latest games as is, often already playing them. It's basically appealing to the current generation, not advertising. The only character added solely for the sake of advertising was Roy in Melee. He was added just to advertise the newest FE, which wasn't out anywhere. Advertising and Relevance are very different things. Smash 4 is filled with relevant designs. Another factor is it's way easier to port over current design options that you can find the data for. This is why Smash Run is 3DS only(besides part of the design choice). It was super easy to port 3DS models over to it from Uprising. Simply a development choice that put far less work on the people already putting tons of content in. It's a shortcut meant to cram tons of content in. And unlike Brawl, there's a lot more quality to this content too. By using a shortcut to add tons of fun content, they had more time to work on balance. DLC(the patches) helped balance too.

Mario himself isn't odd really. He's the main character of Nintendo and is seen everywhere now due to being high tier. This isn't an issue at all. The most iconic Nintendo character showing up the most? What's odd about that? What is odd is that he was always an average and easy to get into character before Brawl revamped his design. This is a major change. I can see why some might not like the newer design. The only character out of place is Yoshi when it comes to the roster screen among the Mario series(and Yoshi is treated as his own series, so he should be after the Mario characters and next to Wario or the DK series). Everybody else feels more logical to some degree.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Mario doesn't feel like he's a part of Smash 4?

He's one of the most used characters casually and competitively and you just don't see him for some reason?

What the actual flying ****?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

"Mario not a part of Smash 4"

• Including spin-off series, there are eleven Mario characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Junior, Rosalina, Doc, DK, Diddy, Yoshi, Wario). More than any other franchise and nearly a fourth of the entire roster.
  • Even without spin-offs, there's 7 Mario characters, which is still more than any other franchise (even if by just one character) and over 10% of the 58-character roster.
• Three of said 11 characters are top tiers and, aside from Junior, all of the others are at least mid tier if not higher, making them viable from a competitive standpoint. Not to mention some of the world's best Smash 4 players use some of those characters.
• No other franchise is even close to having as many stages, songs and trophies as Mario. It even had more DLC stages than any other franchise. Sure, it got only two, but still.
• Also, it's SUPER SMASH BROS. You know what else sounds similar? SUPER MARIO BROS.

The only point I could give you is that there are no viable Mario stage in the competitive scene, but that's kind of a moot argument since Brawl is currently the only Smash game with a legal Mario stage since Peach's Castle is now banned in 64.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

People need to learn how to read.

He didn't say Mario characters or franchise. He specifically meant the character Mario.

This guy.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mario himself isn't odd really. He's the main character of Nintendo and is seen everywhere now due to being high tier. This isn't an issue at all. The most iconic Nintendo character showing up the most? What's odd about that? What is odd is that he was always an average and easy to get into character before Brawl revamped his design. This is a major change. I can see why some might not like the newer design. The only character out of place is Yoshi when it comes to the roster screen among the Mario series(and Yoshi is treated as his own series, so he should be after the Mario characters and next to Wario or the DK series). Everybody else feels more logical to some degree.

In fairness, Yoshi didn't start getting his own series until after Super Mario World, so his placement between Bowser and Rosalina does make some sense. But if you're going by chronological order, the Mario Universe roster might've followed the order below...



And before anyone asks, today's Donkey Kong debuted after Wario.

 

[Bowserlick]

And the Koopalings came before Dr. Mario and Yoshi.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

People need to learn how to read.

He didn't say Mario characters or franchise. He specifically meant the character Mario.

This guy.

He's still saying a top 5 character seen frequently in both casual and competitive play doesn't belong in Smash 4, which doesn't make sense at all.

And even if he wasn't viable, Mario would never not belong. I mean, Smash is a platform fighter and Mario literally debuted on the game that invented the platforming genre.

Not to mention he's one of, if not THE most iconic gaming character ever. So, in a game that reunites Nintendo's all-stars in an epic fighting crossver, Mario is literally the most fitting character. Heck, the name of the franchise is based on his own games!

 

[FunAtParties]

He's still saying a top 5 character seen frequently in both casual and competitive play doesn't belong in Smash 4, which doesn't make sense at all.

And even if he wasn't viable, Mario would never not belong. I mean, Smash is a platform fighter and Mario literally debuted on the game that invented the platforming genre.

Not to mention he's one of, if not THE most iconic gaming character ever. So, in a game that reunites Nintendo's all-stars in an epic fighting crossver, Mario is literally the most fitting character. Heck, the name of the franchise is based on his own games!

I don't think Swamp is disagreeing with you here.

 

[Deleted member]

He's still saying a top 5 character seen frequently in both casual and competitive play doesn't belong in Smash 4, which doesn't make sense at all.

....that's not what he's saying.
At all.

What I also noticed, Mario, Nintendo's guide, doesn't feel apart of Smash 4. Mario feels so absent from the roster now. I mainly just see Bowser, Peach, Yoshi and Bowser Jr.

While what he's saying doesn't really add up for other reasons that Swamp pointed out, he's saying that Mario has little presence in Smash himself despite being Nintendo's flagship character.
NOT that Mario "doesn't belong".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

belong in Smash 4

Can you even English bro?

He's complaining about a perceived opposite problem.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Can you even English bro?

He's complaining about a perceived opposite problem.

Kev is saying Mario seems absent.
Mario's the one who gets a lot of promotion, is in the How to Play stuff and more.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kev is saying Mario seems absent.
Mario's the one who gets a lot of promotion, is in the How to Play stuff and more.

Gwen you're smarter than this.

Read the conversation again and tell me why you telling me this is silly.

I'll help you out.

Mario doesn't feel like he's a part of Smash 4?

He's one of the most used characters casually and competitively and you just don't see him for some reason?

What the actual flying ****?

People need to learn how to read.

He didn't say Mario characters or franchise. He specifically meant the character Mario.

This guy.

:/

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Gwen you're smarter than this.

Read the conversation again and tell me why you telling me this is silly.

I'll help you out.






:/

shaddap it's 1AM
And I DID mean the character, Mario himself gets more promotion compared to other characters

 

[A Distant Demon]

The concept of "not feeling like they are in smash" doesn't really make sense as a concept anyway


Of course a large roster will make individuals stand out less and less. That is just a necessary evil of fighting games. Ad even then, Mario is in the how to play, has the very first slot, and is right on the cover. He has more showtime than pretty much anyone else on the roster. . .

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In fairness, Yoshi didn't start getting his own series until after Super Mario World, so his placement between Bowser and Rosalina does make some sense. But if you're going by chronological order, the Mario Universe roster might've followed the order below...



And before anyone asks, today's Donkey Kong debuted after Wario.

Not an excuse. He's still his own series officially. He should be after all the actual Mario series characters. He can be before or after the DK and Wario characters. It's basically ignoring the fact he is his own series for no reason. He's the only character that sticks out among the roster for no good reason.

The clones are in their own spots, same with DLC and Miis and 3rd parties. This all makes sense. The clones should be with their own series, but at least they have a reason for being separated that has real logic to it. Yoshi is the only exception to this.

The order should be Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr. and then Rosalina anyway. Dr. Mario, as noted, is in the clone trio spot. Then it should be either Yoshi, Wario, or DK and Diddy in any order. No splits among the series proper, and it uses more proper logic.

The to be fair really isn't justified at this point. Yoshi is not a Mario character in Smash. At the very least, the rest of the roster has more proper logic. I mean, what was the point of splitting Yoshi off from Mario from the start if you aren't going to be consistent about it?

 

[UserKev]

I didn't say Mario generally feels absent from the roster. Just from my point of view. I see a vision of how better Smash 4 could have been.

If my posts bother you, just skip them and leave me alone. My quotes are for users that can relate to them at this point. Not you. I follow the same pattern. Do the same or tough luck for you.

 

[Deleted member]

The whole "Yoshi/DK/Wario aren't Mario characters in Smash" logic is splitting hairs.

Yes, they have their own icons. But they're still Mario characters through and through. They just get their own icons to reflect their spin-off titles.
Is the fact Yoshi puts a divide between Rosalina/Bowser Jr. and the other four characters that use the "Super Mushroom" symbol kind of stupid in itself? Yeah. But not because "Yoshi doesn't count as a Mario character". It's stupid because of how aesthetically awkward it is to have a random divide between series icons.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

UserKev, you're being too vague. What do you mean? It's fine if you don't like how he's represented or something as a character. But I still don't get your point(and it's clear some are still confused). Just explain it. It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It's just it's too confusing in the way you're presenting your point.

And I'd say it's both. It's stupid because he's a different series and because it doesn't look right to split the same series right in half(or kind of in half). It's just a matter of opinion here. I like actual consistency in the rosters. Everything else has some consistency and logic that holds better. Of course, I think they should've at least let us change the order of the 3DS roster, but it is what it is.

As for DKC characters(Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong), they aren't "Mario" characters, they're guests in the Mario series due to many ties in their storylines, before DKC takes place. I can understand why people call them that due to constant ties, the constant guest appearances, or just lack of knowledge of the arcade games/originations of them. That's even how Sakurai views it. It's only really annoying at best when people just ignore their origins(Sakurai doesn't ignore it so much as doesn't acknowledge how separated they are enough). Just a pet peeve of mine. Yeah, righting great wrongs, etc. Worst part is when it spawns a long debate when all you need is to really just understand their origins at best(it's less important for what label you give them as long as you know the information, you know?).

Sorry, rough day. Needed to make a small rant.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The to be fair really isn't justified at this point. Yoshi is not a Mario character in Smash. At the very least, the rest of the roster has more proper logic. I mean, what was the point of splitting Yoshi off from Mario from the start if you aren't going to be consistent about it?

The biggest sense of irony in this story is that ALL the Mario Kart series trophies are in the Super Mario Bros. series category. Even the Yoshi's Island characters (other than Yoshi) are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series, such as Baby Luigi, Shy Guy, and Kamek.

Another weird ordeal is knowing that even though Yoshi's Island is a Yoshi series stage, it primarily uses BGM tracks that are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series. Likewise, Woolly World has a few Super Mario Bros. series BGM tracks on its track list.

Personally, I like that Yoshi is placed alongside the Super Mario Bros. series characters in Smash 3DS / Wii U, even if they don't share the same series icon.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Another weird ordeal is knowing that even though Yoshi's Island is a Yoshi series stage, it primarily uses BGM tracks that are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series. Likewise, Woolly World has a few Super Mario Bros. series BGM tracks on its track list.

Not to mention the stage itself based on a Mario game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The biggest sense of irony in this story is that ALL the Mario Kart series trophies are in the Super Mario Bros. series category. Even the Yoshi's Island characters (other than Yoshi) are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series, such as Baby Luigi, Shy Guy, and Kamek.

Another weird ordeal is knowing that even though Yoshi's Island is a Yoshi series stage, it primarily uses BGM tracks that are categorized under the Super Mario Bros. series. Likewise, Woolly World has a few Super Mario Bros. series BGM tracks on its track list.

Personally, I like that Yoshi is placed alongside the Super Mario Bros. series characters in Smash 3DS / Wii U, even if they don't share the same series icon.

The trophy stuff is arguably unjustifed. However, there is context. Keep in mind all of those characters are from a game called "Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island". Anyone from there can still be easily fall under Mario just as much as Yoshi.

Music isn't too weird when some Yoshi games do have Mario BGM's as is, and the fact that Yoshi's island is still a Mario game directly too. Sure, the remake lessens the Mario influence to a degree, but still.

Splitting up the Mario series by throwing Yoshi there is a lot less justified than this. It's very clear why it's done, due to "when the characters came out", but it looks inconsistent since it doesn't apply to the DK and Wario characters despite having full ties to the Mario series. That's kind of the issue. Either apply it to all 4 series, or just don't. As I said, it's just plain odd. Unlike with the other splits(the clone trio, how the DLC is all on its own), this one has no real consistency to it. That's the bigger issue overall, as GY said. However, I still think the fact they split a series in half but didn't apply it to all the related series is an issue in itself.

Regardless, this is always going to be an issue in general due to Mario, DK, Yoshi, and Wario being tied at the hip. There's no right answer to handling it. I think the best one is being consistent with them all(clone trio is an exception to the rule, of course). Otherwise it feels out of place. A good roster has a specific consistency that is always followed. This is the only one that doesn't follow a good consistency. I mean, of course, getting the full set of characters(including the DLC) will easily look odd to some when Fire Emblem is in 3-4 unique spots too, but there's some decent and consistent logic to it. No matter how you cut it, the Smash 4 roster will have spots that feel out of place to some. And that's fine. It's an oddly designed roster anyway. It's also the first one with DLC. I think Smash 5's roster, or a Smash 4 remake roster, will have a change in roster design, and not just cause of potential newcomers/vets not in 4.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yoshi is a Mario character that had his uniqueness recognized.

That's basically it really.



Donkey Kong and Wario seem to stand out more from the main Mario series if the in game Smash content is to be believed.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's the consistency of the roster's design that's an issue. Him being a Mario character at heart is not a big deal nor does that matter much at all. If you're going to split the Mario roster up in the CSS, it should be done in a consistent way. Wario should be next to Yoshi and before Rosalina and Bowser Jr. It's very clear Yoshi is there due to a debut thing. And DKC is far separated enough from Mario that it's entirely its own series(which loves to have many guests come into the Mario games). It's justified why they don't get split into the Mario spots. Wario however is still connected enough and spun-off from Mario too. It should be Wario and Yoshi that are splitting the series apart, since at least then it'd hold full consistency within the roster's style. As of now, Yoshi is the only one entirely out of place.

I agree with GY that him being next to Mario(well, Bowser Jr. technically) isn't a big deal due to being still severely tied with Mario. Now, I don't think it's a great reason for it, but it's not a huge deal regardless. As noted, the rest of the actual roster is very consistent with its design. Basically, it has all the regular series, Clone Trio, Third Parties, Miis, DLC. Nothing is inconsistent at all here. Despite weird stuff like Fire Emblem being split into 4 different spots on the roster.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The selection screen never bothered me greatly. Don't get the ammount of discussion it gets either.

Regarding Mario, felt he's far more present in Smash 4 than say, Brawl. Mario was in pretty much every trailer and he's on the cover of the game.

Think we've officially ran out of things to tall about. Character discussion seems dead and the same circle jerk we've done for years. I'd rather wait till the game is officially announced. Cause most aren't really trying to look outside of the box when it comes to which characters 'should' be in Smash... So that leaves woth very little to discuss.

Also, Impa should totally be in Smash.

 

[UserKev]

The selection screen never bothered me greatly. Don't get the ammount of discussion it gets either.

Regarding Mario, felt he's far more present in Smash 4 than say, Brawl. Mario was in pretty much every trailer and he's on the cover of the game.

Think we've officially ran out of things to tall about. Character discussion seems dead and the same circle jerk we've done for years. I'd rather wait till the game is officially announced. Cause most aren't really trying to look outside of the box when it comes to which characters 'should' be in Smash... So that leaves woth very little to discuss.

Also, Impa should totally be in Smash.

What I meant by Mario feeling absent in Smash 4 has to do with the amount of difficult to ignore guest characters. They can't comprehend the aspect behind that specific absent I'm pointing out and just twist my interpretations to what they see fit. Its as if Smash speculation is the only thing they know. I don't have to purchase the DLC but of course I'm going to eventually end up sucked by their move set appeal. 4 Man Match can finally be played up to just guest characters, Sakurai originally stating he didn't want this.

Right now, with less significant Nintendo characters and also potential characters divided to Assist Trophies, I see speculation even then at its downfall. Its no wonder I was just pointing out what Smash now is missing because that's what I do. Its still interesting to vision Smash with those missing 1ups even if its pointless what how right now speculation is anyway. I'm just going to stick to Mimikyu speculation now. At least I'll try to.

Also, I realized me considering my self above the fanbase was a metaphor. I'm really impacted by the users that didn't take that to heart.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What I meant by Mario feeling absent in Smash 4 has to do with the amount of difficult to ignore guest characters. They can't comprehend the aspect behind that specific absent I'm pointing out and just twist my interpretations to what they see fit. Its as if Smash speculation is the only thing they know. I don't have to purchase the DLC but of course I'm going to eventually end up sucked by their move set appeal. 4 Man Match can finally be played up to just guest characters, Sakurai originally stating he didn't want this.

Right now, with less significant Nintendo characters and also potential characters divided to Assist Trophies, I see speculation even then at its downfall. Its no wonder I was just pointing out what Smash now is missing because that's what I do. Its still interesting to vision Smash with those missing 1ups even if its pointless what how right now speculation is anyway. I'm just going to stick to Mimikyu speculation now. At least I'll try to.

Also, I realized me considering my self above the fanbase was a metaphor. I'm really impacted by the users that didn't take that to heart.

Smash has 8 player Smash now and if Sakurai didn't want new guest characters, we wouldn't have gotten them.

Also lmao at the assist trophy comment

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yoshi is a Mario character that had his uniqueness recognized.

That's basically it really.



Donkey Kong and Wario seem to stand out more from the main Mario series if the in game Smash content is to be believed.

To add to this, Wario and Donkey Kong do not share the same main antagonist as Mario and Yoshi. Almost every mainstream Super Mario and Yoshi's Island title has Bowser as the final boss, but that's not the case with Wario and Donkey Kong.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As noted before, the roster holds a lot of its choices to relevant options. The reason some of the characters some people like aren't in is because they have no relevant game coming up. This is why Wolf is cut, same with Lucas before DLC brought him back. Most of the cuts were otherwise due to different issues(Snake's is unknown due to a lack of statements, but being 3rd party, that means somebody was in disagreement with him coming back. If Konami says no, doesn't matter what somebody else wants).

One thing to note is only the base 3rd parties are given any real importance to the main roster. MegaMan is a huge nostalgia boost for older Nintendo players. He's basically a retro pick too. Sonic and Pac-Man are huge icons in gaming so of course them being in as guests makes sense. None of them drown out Mario, who is just as iconic as Sonic and Pac-Man(MegaMan is a bit lesser). Also, Mario is intentionally not meant to represent "Nintendo" as a whole. He's Nintendo's Flagship character but not their only representative either. He has also had a huge presence in Smash regardless.

It's important every 3rd party character stands out on their own, and they're a huge reason Smash sells. Smash Bros. appeals to tons of players, and isn't just "for Nintendo fans only". It's not even a Nintendo All-Stars game anymore. That got dropped for Brawl when it had two Guest characters. Sakurai said it himself; "I want the best Characters game in the world." What he cares about is having the best of the best, a huge roster full of great characters.

DLC had everyone with proper trailers. Nobody was treated as any more notable at that point. 3rd Parties have more of an impact due to the fact they're Guests, and nothing else. This is their natural selling point. Ryu and Cloud are both huge icons among Fighting and RPG's. It wasn't unusual they got picked. But they also don't oversaturate the roster either. Hell, they have the weakest song selection in the series. Ryu has 2 songs, with multiple remixes(they are good songs, mind you) and Cloud has 2 songs as is. Every single Guest character(even Snake) had tons more songs. The Mario series has more than twice as many songs as even Bayonetta does(and she is the big winner of the poll, so she's fairly notable for that alone).

You have to remember that a game needs to sell. Putting emphasis on stuff that people would find interesting is the logical way to do so. This is why the guest characters are on the cover along with Mario. As well as many new and interesting characters.

Please note that your statement is still vague so I apologize if I misunderstood again. I think the issue is you're really not attempting to look at it at any other perspective than your own. This is why people are calling you out on it. I get where you're coming from. If you specifically are for 1 character, seeing them being "less important" than 3rd parties could look bad. Now, I don't think this is an issue personally, but I think I am getting what you mean now. Last thing to note is that Smash is still full of business decisions. It's not entirely catering to the fans. Also, respectively, there's a ton of different fans. Some hate 3rd parties. Some hate Fire Emblem having as much as it does. Some dislike that DKC has little content in the sense of Assist Trophies and playable characters. And long story short? They have a right to feel that way. Smash was designed to appease fans in general(this is the reason it uses Nintendo characters and not pure OC's like the original build did). There is nothing wrong with this. The only thing that is wrong is ignoring the context behind the decisions. Nobody is saying "agree with Sakurai's view", of course. One can respectfully disagree. The issue is there's too many silly arguments due to the refusal to respect his decisions.

For the record, I dislike some of what he did too. I think FE should not be super special enough to get two DLC. Corrin is fine due to being a "now or never" scenario, imo. Roy is great too for being an awesome choice, but he's the one I'd switch out for another character from another series if one had to go. And while I like Roy more than Corrin, I feel there's better justification for Corrin than Roy. I can't say who would be an easy replacement DLC, however. There's too many factors to consider.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Wario should be next to Yoshi and before Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

I don't agree.

Wario doesn't make appearances in main series Mario games anymore like Yoshi does.
Heck I'm not even sure if Mario Land 2 and Mario 64 DS are even counted as main series games.

Plus it's the Warioware version of the character that is being represented; that version of Wario with that outfit has never been in a Mario game, so I feel like he would clash being in between the characters who consistently appear in the main series Mario games.

 

[Bowserlick]

Down-loadable characters should go next to their series rather than in their own down-loadable character row.

 

[Deleted member]

Plus it's the Warioware version of the character that is being represented; that version of Wario with that outfit has never been in a Mario game,

Well, there is a WarioWare-based court in Mario Power Tennis....

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't agree.

Wario doesn't make appearances in main series Mario games anymore like Yoshi does.
Heck I'm not even sure if Mario Land 2 and Mario 64 DS are even counted as main series games.

Plus it's the Warioware version of the character that is being represented; that version of Wario with that outfit has never been in a Mario game, so I feel like he would clash being in between the characters who consistently appear in the main series Mario games.

It's still Wario. He debuted before Bowser Jr. and Rosalina just like Yoshi did. It's consistent to have both before or none. It doesn't really matter if it's a "different' version of Wario in this case. If there were two playable Warios, sure. Also, regular Wario is a costume choice anyway. The problem is no matter how you cut it, the roster is inconsistent with Yoshi's placement compared to everything.

Of course, I do agree the clones/DLC should be with their own series, but that might be kind of hard to do since DLC is bought by some people, and only certain DLC is bought. Making multiple roster designs is hard due to the way development went.

 

[Delzethin]

In my opinion:

-Yoshi's games are basically Mario spinoffs, as they use many similar ideas, obstacles, and enemies.
-DK's games are their own series that just happens to take place in the Mario 'verse.
-Wario...is somewhere in between.

But that's just semantics, more or less. How'd this argument get this heated, anyway? Mario and his series aren't overshadowed in Smash 4 in the slightest.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It's still Wario. He debuted before Bowser Jr. and Rosalina just like Yoshi did. It's consistent to have both before or none. It doesn't really matter if it's a "different' version of Wario in this case. If there were two playable Warios, sure. Also, regular Wario is a costume choice anyway. The problem is no matter how you cut it, the roster is inconsistent with Yoshi's placement compared to everything.

Of course, I do agree the clones/DLC should be with their own series, but that might be kind of hard to do since DLC is bought by some people, and only certain DLC is bought. Making multiple roster designs is hard due to the way development went.

I mean Bowser Jr. debuted before Rosalina, yet he appears after her on the roster.

And again I think it comes down to the fact that Yoshi makes consistent appearances in the main series Mario titles whereas Wario has been relegated to only appearing in spinoffs.

On top of that the Yoshi's Island series is directly connected to (and is basically a precursor to) the Super Mario series. A lot of the locations, characters, and enemies exist in the Mario universe, unlike both of Wario's series.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean Bowser Jr. debuted before Rosalina, yet he appears after her on the roster.

And again I think it comes down to the fact that Yoshi makes consistent appearances in the main series Mario titles whereas Wario has been relegated to only appearing in spinoffs.

On top of that the Yoshi's Island series is directly connected to (and is basically a precursor to) the Super Mario series. A lot of the locations, characters, and enemies exist in the Mario universe, unlike both of Wario's series.

That's great, but that doesn't really justify an inconsistent roster design anyway.

Yoshi still is his own series, no matter how you cut it, in Smash. Him being randomly between the series doesn't make any sense from many viewpoints. Yes, his debut does have relevance, but it's still strange to do so, but not apply to other series related to Mario. Yoshi being more tied isn't really a good excuse anyway. It still makes the roster look poor.

You're too hung up on "but he's a Mario character" when that's not the actual point being made. Of course he is. But the way the actual series in Smash work is that roster placement is based upon series' icons and sometimes extra factors. DLC and clone trio are unique situations that never strictly happened before. The clones in Melee were new ideas, using model swaps. The clone trio are upgraded costumes. As for Bowser Jr., there's implications he was finished after Rosalina(which means, as I said, the roster's focus is mostly on "development order" in many cases) due to the fact he was almost cut. As noted, the clone trio supports this too, being they got made last. Since they're all 1st party, of course they come before the 3rd parties. Miis are their own special thing so are at the basic end. And then DLC.

I don't see how Wario is truly more special than Yoshi here anyway. Two series spun-off straight from Super Mario Bros. with their own unique content, still borrowing bits and pieces from its core series. Wario may have done more unique things, but there's no denying his origins. Nor does Sakurai, considering the fact you can easily main his original costume set. You aren't stuck with Wario-Ware. He doesn't like it as much as Ware, so there's less Land moves. I don't agree with this decision, but it is what it is.

 

[Deleted member]

But the thing about Land vs. Ware is that Land seems to stand up better to the test of time. Shoot, Shake It! was one of the most innovative titles on the Wii.

Ware started out super strong with Mini Microgames, had an okay run on the DS, but by the time we got to Game & Wario, the novelty wore off because they decided to incorporate more and more gimmicks, while the original game worked so well by having those themes (9-Volt and Nintendo callbacks was the only constant format) that it couldn't have hurt to just expand on those formats for a while.

That's my view.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Game and Wario is the only Wario Ware game that doesn't stand the test of time.

All the others are pretty spectacular.

I mean, Smooth Moves is one of the greatest Wii games of all time.