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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Being a "creator's pet" is horribly irrelevant when Camelot only handles Tennis and Golf.
Well you're right, Camelot's only contributed to things like air swimming and tennis for his abilities. Next Level Games gave him the vines, Baseball gave him the fake ball and Whiskered Eggplant, etc. That was an honest mistake.

But everything else still stands. What is honestly wrong with the Flower Power itself when several characters have broken canon and borrow abilities in Smash? It's perfectly fine if none of you see any potential, but I'm getting serious pre-Smash 4 Takamaru vibes from this.

And I'm not like "you know who and asking for answers.

 
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Daisy using moves that she hasn't used (that others have) from Super Mario games isn't an issue...

Ness uses moves that he didn't use in Earthbound as attacks. PSI Magnet, PK Fire and PK Thunder belong to Paula, and PK Starstorm (Final Smash) belongs to Poo. The majority of Lucas' attacks belong to Kumatora.

Pokémon use various attacks for custom moves that don't exist in the Pokémon series.

Zero Suit Samus uses a whip in her gun, and jet boot heels, despite neither existing and not used in the Metroid games.

Didn't Captain Falcon and Fox McCloud have moves made up specifically for Super Smash Bros.?

etc.
The problem stands that it's literally just 'Why Daisy?'. What about all the other Mario characters? As of right now Daisy has only shown up in 1 mainline Mario game, all others have been party games. She's in a weird place where she wouldn't be chosen to represent the party series of Mario games as Waluigi would actually represent them better due to him being created solely for that purpose.

I'm in no way against Daisy appearing in Smash Bros. but it stands that the main question is 'Why Daisy?' often followed up by 'Why not this character?'. Other than being a clone with slight variations from Peach or alternate costume for her, there is no real definitive reason for her to show up in the game.

I get she has some really dedicated fans and that's great! A good percentage of making a good character is their personality and that's what people like about her. SO then, why would her being regulated to an alternate costume be so bad? give her the personality of Daisy with voice actin, etc. included. Is that really so bad?
 
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Zem-raj

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The problem stands that it's literally just 'Why Daisy?'. What about all the other Mario characters? As of right now Daisy has only shown up in 1 mainline Mario game, all others have been party games. She's in a weird place where she wouldn't be chosen to represent the party series of Mario games as Waluigi would actually represent them better due to him being created solely for that purpose.

I'm in no way against Daisy appearing in Smash Bros. but it stands that the main question is 'Why Daisy?' often followed up by 'Why not this character?'. Other than being a clone with slight variations from Peach or alternate costume for her, there is no real definitive reason for her to show up in the game.

I get she has some really dedicated fans and that's great! A good percentage of making a good character is their personality and that's what people like about her. SO then, why would her being regulated to an alternate costume be so bad? give her the personality of Daisy with voice actin, etc. included. Is that really so bad?
I'm pretty neutral regarding Daisy. I'm just stating that it's silly to say she can't use attacks she hasn't used in games, when there are others already in Smash who are doing that.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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SO then, why would her being regulated to an alternate costume be so bad? give her the personality of Daisy with voice actin, etc. included. Is that really so bad?
At least I would be humble enough to accept that if that were to happen unlike The Being Who's Name Should Not Be Said Here.

But what about the Dark Pit? With him, he's just kind of there and a waste of potential with few unique qualities. I know everyone is against cuts, but would it be a crime for him to be demoted as an alt. At least in Lucina's defense, she's the number one waifu for Awakening noobs and extremely popular.
 
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Well you're right, Camelot's only contributed to things like air swimming and tennis for his abilities. Next Level Games gave him the vines, Baseball gave him the fake ball and Whiskered Eggplant, etc. That was an honest mistake.

But everything else still stands. What is honestly wrong with the Flower Power itself when several characters have broken canon and borrow abilities in Smash? It's perfectly fine if none of you see any potential, but I'm getting serious pre-Smash 4 Takamaru vibes from this.

And I'm not like "you know who and asking for answers.
If I may make a theory, it may be because while Waluigi's lack of "theme" makes throwing in a bunch of random **** just "work", Daisy's "flower" theme doesn't really lend itself well to Smash move ideas outside of a few generic things simply with a flower motif.
We can get other things such as the crystals from Strikers Charged to help add more, though.
 

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At least I would be humble enough to accept that if that were to happen unlike The Being Who's Name Should Not Be Said Here.

But what about the Dark Pit? With him, he's just kind of there and a waste of poetical with few unique qualities? I know everyone is against cuts, but would it be a crime for him to be demoted as an alt. At least in Lucina's defense, she's the number one waifu for Awakening noobs and extremely popular.
Pretty sure we all know why Dark Pit is in. The same reason Palutena has a **** ton of legitly unique custom special. Lucina is a very good comparison to Daisy. Their popularity is literally their defining factor.
 
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Pretty sure we all know why Dark Pit is in. The same reason Palutena has a **** ton of legitly unique custom special. Lucina is a very good comparison to Daisy. Their popularity is literally their defining factor.
Oh, the old "Kid Icarus bias" argument.
Been a while since I've seen someone just randomly throw it out there.
 

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Unpopular opinion: I would want Dark Pit to stay. But I also want Hades, Viridi, and Medusa to join.

Not everyone needs to gone because they are a clone. And I'm saying this as a Pichu fan.
 

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Dark Pit is his own thing solely because some differences came up that made him work as a seperate character.

Palutena has unique customs because her specials are literally a bunch of powers from Uprising, them being unique allows for greater representation.

The reason Kid Icarus has a lot of content is because Sakurai could easily port that stuff from Uprising.

 
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But what about the Dark Pit? With him, he's just kind of there and a waste of potential with few unique qualities. I know everyone is against cuts, but would it be a crime for him to be demoted as an alt. At least in Lucina's defense, she's the number one waifu for Awakening noobs and extremely popular.
You say that as if Dark Pit has the same low level of popularity that he has in Smash outside it.
 

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If I may make a theory, it may be because while Waluigi's lack of "theme" makes throwing in a bunch of random **** just "work", Daisy's "flower" theme doesn't really lend itself well to Smash move ideas outside of a few generic things simply with a flower motif.
We can get other things such as the crystals from Strikers Charged to help add more, though.
Yes. Turning her into an ideal Crystal Man from Mega Man with more control over that element would be interesting.

Only few characters really have that ability and it's something that's rarely tapped into in fighting games.


Unpopular opinion: I would want Dark Pit to stay. But I also want Hades, Viridi, and Medusa to join.

Not everyone needs to gone because they are a clone. And I'm saying this as a Pichu fan.
So it would be perfectly fine to bring back Young Link when Toon Link already exists?

Ok.
 

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Oh, the old "Kid Icarus bias" argument.
Been a while since I've seen someone just randomly throw it out there.
Is there an argument against it? Don't get me wrong I'm totally cool with it. Dark Pit and Palutena getting the bias is awesome, I play Dark Pit far more than I play Pit. I think Kid Icarus getting the spotlight is amazing. Uprising is an incredible game with some serious love poured into it and thus is why Sakurai felt so connected to the series throughout the development of Smash 4. Who knows maybe he programmed most of Palutena's special moves all by himself, or maybe he programmed Dark Pit all by himself. Who cares. They're cool additional characters but the fact that there is in fact bias is blatantly obvious. Which is fine, as I said, I don't mind. It's just when people say 'There's no reason for Dark Pit to exist!' they aren't exactly wrong.
 
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Yes. Turning her into an ideal Crystal Man from Mega Man with more control over that element would be interesting.

Only few characters really have that ability and it's something that's rarely tapped into in fighting games.
The likelihood of her being predominately crystal-themed is rather low, however.

So it would be perfectly fine to bring back Young Link when Toon Link already exists?

Ok.
Don't be that guy. Saying "not everyone needs to be gone just because they are a clone" does not mean the same thing as "all clones should stay no matter what".
 

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You say that as if Dark Pit has the same low level of popularity that he has in Smash outside it.
Exactly. Dark Pit is a big deal and a lot of things wouldn't be the same if he were not a part of Uprising's plot. He's got more going for him than just "fujoshi bait" as proof of his popularity.

it would be perfectly fine to bring back Young Link when Toon Link already exists?

Ok.
And the point just went over you head.

Congratulations.
 
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Is there an argument against it? Don't get me wrong I'm totally cool with it. Dark Pit and Palutena getting the bias is awesome, I play Dark Pit far more than I play Pit. I think Kid Icarus getting the spotlight is amazing. Uprising is an incredible game with some serious love poured into it and thus is why Sakurai felt so connected to the series throughout the development of Smash 4. Who knows maybe he programmed most of Palutena's special moves all by himself, or maybe he programmed Dark Pit all by himself. Who cares. They're cool additional characters but the fact that there is in fact bias is blatantly obvious. Which is fine, as I said, I don't mind. It's just when people say 'There's no reason for Dark Pit to exist!' they aren't exactly wrong.

Dark Pit is his own thing solely because some differences came up that made him work as a seperate character.

Palutena has unique customs because her specials are literally a bunch of powers from Uprising, them being unique allows for greater representation.

The reason Kid Icarus has a lot of content is because Sakurai could easily port that stuff from Uprising.

'Nuff said.
 

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Technically already in a horrible mood from an incident last night, but sure I'll bite.

I get it, Waluigi has a lot going for him thanks to his creator's pet status from Camelot while Daisy's original creator is no longer of this world. The air swimming, the toon force, the long purple vines, and other weird **** he can do. Sure he's technically supported to be a weird lanky rival to Weegee, but come on. How else do you think he has no set theme (unlike Daisy with flowers) and get all these new abilities out of the blue.

And what's wrong with the flower moves? Is it because it's a weak gimmick or you're expecting Villager tier wackiness out of her character. Things like Flowerbed Return, Flower Swing, and Crystal Smash can't be done with other characters. If you mean things like the racket and other spinoff stuff, sure I can get that. But discounting those abilities because they aren't interesting enough is some serious downplay.


Remember how "unique" Pac-Man and Wii Fit Trainer was before they were confirmed? And to add more insult to the injury, Wii Fit Trainer never played Volleyball or Hola Hoops, that was all the Miis' doing. What about Ness? He borrowed PSI techniques from his fellow party members out of the blue and there's no way in hell that he should have PK Starstorm when PSI Rockin' exists.

I get that you all expect a lot out of a character's inclusion like uniqueness and abilities that are personal to the character, but I just don't see what's the gripe against her few unique abilities when other characters get a free pass. But if I'm still going to be debunked despite this, well, just do it in a reasonable matter:
I'll try my best to do it in a reasonable manner like you asked. Let me do this by making a long comparison. Sorry Opossum Opossum , but I'll be picking on Chrom for a bit to make my point.

If you read through Sakurai's Famitsu article "Are The Characters Dancing?", you'll see that Sakurai has a very particular way of selecting characters that go into Smash Bros. Chrom in particular was his example of a character that does have the ability to fight, but lacks any qualities that would have made him stand out. While things like a Pair Up mechanic or stance change using swords and lances would have been possible, they aren't core to who Chrom is, just mechanics from a game Chrom has appeared in. Chrom, in his core, is a Falchion-wielder that prefers swift, heavy blows with his sword-fighting skills. If Chrom--not "Fire Emblem Representative #4"--fought in Smash Bros. like he would in his games, he wouldn't have stood out in Smash Bros.'s roster whatsoever. To quote Sakurai:
Sakurai said:
I had thought up a moveset from Chrom, but no matter what he just ended up as this mix between Ike and Marth, and he didn’t come together very well.
The movesets in Smash speak for the most part of how these characters would fight in their games. Robin, for example, has no other important character in Fire Emblem combines sword-play with the use of tome magic, all while managing the handicap of a breakable weapon system. He doesn't use the Pair Up as the basis of his moveset, only his Final Smash. The other Lords of Fire Emblem never really have to mind with their legendary blades breaking, which is why he stands with a handicap of losing his weapons from too much use. None of this stretches out what he's like as a character and individual, because fighting this way in Smash is just like how he would in his actual games, both in gameplay and lore. This is why he was chosen over Chrom, who, despite having every potential to be in Smash Bros., lacked the one thing Robin has that he doesn't: a solid concept of his own. Robin's "Tactical Magical Swordsman" versus Chrom's "Marth but more like Ike"--are you even going to argue who stands out in this scenario? The only way something like Chrom's "Pair Up Fighter" would come about is if we ignore what he is first and foremost, turning a blind eye to countless support conversations and events in Awakening's story, and looked at him as part of a duo the way he can be rather than as the more aggressive successor to the Falchion that he always is and always will be.

Compare this to countless other fighters in Smash Bros., whose concept alone is not only theirs alone of the possible candidates of their series, but already speaks plenty for how they'd fight before you ever hear the moveset. Villager's "Pedestrian Pragmatist", Little Mac's "Stay Grounded and Punish" and WFT's "Fighting to Work-Out" versus Daisy's "Tomboy Flower Power". You know by hearing all of these that Villager would use an unusually non-combative style (like he does in his non-combative game), Little Mac would use a lot of patience in holding his ground before going for a hard blow (again, the entire basis of his gameplay in Punch-Out) and Wii Fit Trainer would strike up a lot of moves with long hit-boxes and quick-succession on part of their stretching and emphasis on exercise (which in itself is a stretch based on their reception in Smash, but still stays true to their practices within their game).

Which brings me into the next topic. These are not only true to their characters in both gameplay and lore, but look at the characters around them--of those around them, who would sensibly do the same things they do? Further more, of those characters who do the same thing, who would make sense to put in Smash first? The Villager and Little Mac are far from the only characters of their series to do what they do, but as the main protagonists of their series, they get first priority over their friends and rivals. They do these things in Smash not because their series often does it, however, but because it's precisely what they do in those series, and by extension, what the other characters in Smash don't do as well. Same with Robin, who would sensibly be put in before another Magical Swordsman in the Fire Emblem series for reasons of being one of the main characters. Compare again back to Chrom, who unlike these other characters, didn't get in because what he as an individual not only doesn't shine next to the other characters in Smash, but also doesn't even shine within his own series, where sword-fighting Lords are dime a dozen and we have a solid variety that already cover both elegant and gritty styles.

Now, all of this talk of Chrom? All of it applies directly onto Daisy. All of it.

Sakurai will add a character based on the character itself and what they would feasibly do. For the same reason you wouldn't hand Balloon Fighter a harpoon and rope and say "Here you go, now you can fight in Smash Bros.!", Sakurai wouldn't simply give Daisy an arbitrary party dice-rolling mechanic. Nor a tennis ball to follow around. Nor a motor-bike to ride or a Mario Land power-up to use or just growing flowers out of the ground--that's not what Daisy is about. Daisy isn't about these spin-off games. Daisy isn't even the main character of these spin-off games let alone the sole user of their mechanics. Core to Daisy herself, she is a tomboy princess that parallels Peach's girly girl. She's the royalty of a kingdom that essentially no longer exists in any Mario games in the last couple decades, and she sometimes does a thing and a flower particle effect appears. If you don't ride off entirely turning her moveset into just Mario spin-off things that aren't even exclusive to her, all you have is a Peach clone with slightly more perky and unyielding animations. And that's the problem, being a tomboy and generating flower effects alone doesn't translate into being a moveset. She's in the same circumstance as Chrom lacking a moveset-driving talent, but now additionally lacking the hierarchy of being a main character to back it up.

What usually happens because of this critical flaw is that Daisy supporters will look to these Mario spin-off titles to fill in all of these gaps... But the issue that a majority of her supporters will look past because of her personality is left staring the rest of us in the face. A character shouldn't be comprised of these many gaps in the first place, because if their moveset is just left to fill in their character rather than any substance truly of their own, how on earth is that worth a spot over other choices that do come into the game doing things they can call their own?

tl;dr
Characters are characters, not faces merely to represent mechanics. If the character can't be a character and still be unique, they're not an interesting choice for a character. In a word, mechanically speaking, Daisy offers very little. In Sakurai's words, she doesn't dance.
 
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'Nuff said.
NonSpecificGuy said:
Who knows maybe he programmed most of Palutena's special moves all by himself, or maybe he programmed Dark Pit all by himself. Who cares. They're cool additional characters but the fact that there is in fact bias is blatantly obvious.
This is pretty close to what you were trying to point out as counter to my argument. They may have used elements from Uprising and ported it over but does that strictly mean that the development was completely unbiased with their inclusion? Not necessarily. It's possible that they started out with this characters in the development and became more and more attached to the characters. Bias isn't a bad thing. Just because someone is bias doesn't mean their ignorant to the rest of the game it just means they are a little more attached to the project. Don't really know why people insist the bias is a despicable thing.
 
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Come on guys, you dodged my best question, would Takamaru offer more as a character than Daisy?

And sorry God Robert, I kind off can really price together your article. Unless him as an archetypal "Quick Draw Zoner" draws in an interesting gimmick.
 

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I believe Daisy popularity primarily derives from people not liking Peach or finding her too bland or something similar. So Daisy is most common choice they go for.

At least that's how her fanbase originated.
 
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tl;dr
Characters are characters, not faces merely to represent mechanics. If the character can't be a character and still be unique, they're not an interesting choice for a character. In a word, mechanically speaking, Daisy offers very little. In Sakurai's words, she doesn't dance.
But Waluigi sure can. :troll:

 

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Exactly. Dark Pit is a big deal and a lot of things wouldn't be the same if he were not a part of Uprising's plot. He's got more going for him than just "fujoshi bait" as proof of his popularity.



And the point just went over you head.

Congratulations.
This isn't Weekly Shonen Jump. Fujoshis are the minority in gaming and they rarely factor into why a youthful male character in gaming is popular, mmkay?

Whoooosh!
 
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Jesus you really go for the throat don't you? You can't even counter that **** we might as well pack up and go home.
Calm down now. No need to get worked up.

I disagree with him, but we can do that without tensions running high.
 
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This is pretty close to what you were trying to point out as counter to my argument. They may have used elements from Uprising and ported it over but does that strictly mean that the development was completely unbiased with their inclusion? Not necessarily. It's possible that they started out with this characters in the development and became more and more attached to the characters. Bias isn't a bad thing. Just because someone is bias doesn't mean their ignorant to the rest of the game it just means they are a little more attached to the project. Don't really know why people insist the bias is a despicable thing.
Because in this particular case, it's insinuating that bias is the only factor to Palutena getting unique customs and Dark Pit's existence in Smash.

When that couldn't be further from the truth.

Each new addition (aside from Lucina and Dark Pit, who were special cases) were designed with a unique "theme" in mind. Palutena's was to have a versatile fighting style with her custom move options based around the assortment of powers available in Uprising.

And for Dark Pit? Like Dr. Mario, Lucina, Alph, and the Koopalings, he was added to be a costume for Pit. Is it really biased that he was among that list? Or is it more that Dark Pit being a costume was a no-brainer, even compared to the others?

Being added as a separate character later like Dr. Mario and Lucina was also not a reason of bias, but rather because someone (i.e. not Sakurai) made the Electroshock Arm for him to use and because he was meant to use the Dark Pit Staff for his Final Smash rather than the Three Sacred Treasures.
 

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This isn't Weekly Shonen Jump. Fujoshis are the minority in gaming and they rarely factor into why a youthful male character in gaming is popular, mmkay?

Whoooosh!
Wew lad.

Besides. We all know only smelly casuals matter to Sakurai compared to us hardcore fans in the long run. :troll:

And no "Whoooooooosh!", for me. You are the one who missed out on the point with the "Young Link" strawman. Cutting any character because they are clones is and always be a horrible idea.
 
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Hey you

Yeah you. Im talking to you

Did you read this post?

no? read it. And get used to it
because THIS RIGHT HERE is smash speculation at its finest and there is a lot more where this comes from
I'll try my best to do it in a reasonable manner like you asked. Let me do this by making a long comparison. Sorry Opossum Opossum , but I'll be picking on Chrom for a bit to make my point.

If you read through Sakurai's Famitsu article "Are The Characters Dancing?", you'll see that Sakurai has a very particular way of selecting characters that go into Smash Bros. Chrom in particular was his example of a character that does have the ability to fight, but lacks any qualities that would have made him stand out. While things like a Pair Up mechanic or stance change using swords and lances would have been possible, they aren't core to who Chrom is, just mechanics from a game Chrom has appeared in. Chrom, in his core, is a Falchion-wielder that prefers swift, heavy blows with his sword-fighting skills. If Chrom--not "Fire Emblem Representative #4"--fought in Smash Bros. like he would in his games, he wouldn't have stood out in Smash Bros.'s roster whatsoever. To quote Sakurai:

The movesets in Smash speak for the most part of how these characters would fight in their games. Robin, for example, has no other important character in Fire Emblem combines sword-play with the use of tome magic, all while managing the handicap of a breakable weapon system. He doesn't use the Pair Up as the basis of his moveset, only his Final Smash. The other Lords of Fire Emblem never really have to mind with their legendary blades breaking, which is why he stands with a handicap of losing his weapons from too much use. None of this stretches out what he's like as a character and individual, because fighting this way in Smash is just like how he would in his actual games, both in gameplay and lore. This is why he was chosen over Chrom, who, despite having every potential to be in Smash Bros., lacked the one thing Robin has that he doesn't: a solid concept of his own. Robin's "Tactical Magical Swordsman" versus Chrom's "Marth but more like Ike"--are you even going to argue who stands out in this scenario? The only way something like Chrom's "Pair Up Fighter" would come about is if we ignore what he is first and foremost, turning a blind eye to countless support conversations and events in Awakening's story, and looked at him as part of a duo the way he can be rather than as the more aggressive successor to the Falchion that he always is and always will be.

Compare this to countless other fighters in Smash Bros., whose concept alone is not only theirs alone of the possible candidates of their series, but already speaks plenty for how they'd fight before you ever hear the moveset. Villager's "Pedestrian Pragmatist", Little Mac's "Stay Grounded and Punish" and WFT's "Fighting to Work-Out" versus Daisy's "Tomboy Flower Power". You know by hearing all of these that Villager would use an unusually non-combative style (like he does in his non-combative game), Little Mac would use a lot of patience in holding his ground before going for a hard blow (again, the entire basis of his gameplay in Punch-Out) and Wii Fit Trainer would strike up a lot of moves with long hit-boxes and quick-succession on part of their stretching and emphasis on exercise (which in itself is a stretch based on their reception in Smash, but still stays true to their practices within their game).

Which brings me into the next topic. These are not only true to their characters in both gameplay and lore, but look at the characters around them--of those around them, who would sensibly do the same things they do? Further more, of those characters who do the same thing, who would make sense to put in Smash first? The Villager and Little Mac are far from the only characters of their series to do what they do, but as the main protagonists of their series, they get first priority over their friends and rivals. They do these things in Smash not because their series often does it, however, but because it's precisely what they do in those series, and by extension, what the other characters in Smash don't do as well. Same with Robin, who would sensibly be put in before another Magical Swordsman in the Fire Emblem series for reasons of being one of the main characters. Compare again back to Chrom, who unlike these other characters, didn't get in because what he as an individual not only doesn't shine next to the other characters in Smash, but also doesn't even shine within his own series, where sword-fighting Lords are dime a dozen and we have a solid variety that already cover both elegant and gritty styles.

Now, all of this talk of Chrom? All of it applies directly onto Daisy. All of it.

Sakurai will add a character based on the character itself and what they would feasibly do. For the same reason you wouldn't hand Balloon Fighter a harpoon and rope and say "Here you go, now you can fight in Smash Bros.!", Sakurai wouldn't simply give Daisy an arbitrary party dice-rolling mechanic. Nor a tennis ball to follow around. Nor a motor-bike to ride or a Mario Land power-up to use or just growing flowers out of the ground--that's not what Daisy is about. Daisy isn't about these spin-off games. Daisy isn't even the main character of these spin-off games let alone the sole user of their mechanics. Core to Daisy herself, she is a tomboy princess that parallels Peach's girly girl. She's the royalty of a kingdom that essentially no longer exists in any Mario games in the last couple decades, and she sometimes does a thing and a flower particle effect appears. If you don't ride off entirely turning her moveset into just Mario spin-off things that aren't even exclusive to her, all you have is a Peach clone with slightly more perky and unyielding animations. And that's the problem, being a tomboy and generating flower effects alone doesn't translate into being a moveset. She's in the same circumstance as Chrom lacking a moveset-driving talent, but now additionally lacking the hierarchy of being a main character to back it up.

What usually happens because of this critical flaw is that Daisy supporters will look to these Mario spin-off titles to fill in all of these gaps... But the issue that a majority of her supporters will look past because of her personality is left staring the rest of us in the face. A character shouldn't be comprised of these many gaps in the first place, because if their moveset is just left to fill in their character rather than any substance truly of their own, how on earth is that worth a spot over other choices that do come into the game doing things they can call their own?

tl;dr
Characters are characters, not faces merely to represent mechanics. If the character can't be a character and still be unique, they're not an interesting choice for a character. In a word, mechanically speaking, Daisy offers very little. In Sakurai's words, she doesn't dance.
godamn


Would replay on the Dark Pit business but Golden pretty much already said it. Was pretty much a no brainer for being added as an alt and a no brainer for being upgraded to a clone
 
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Luminario

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Calm down now. No need to get worked up.

I disagree with him, but we can do that without tensions running high.
Sorry that was meant to sound more lighthearted and humorous than it did. He's got good points that do need to be addressed for Daisy to be included as a fighter.
To be honest there's no way to get me to stop wanting Daisy in smash. She could be in a T pose with nothing but a spin as an attack and I'd be crying tears of joy at her inclusion.
I'm living for this character drama though. There's like 3 fistfights going on here at once it's incredible.
 
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Baskerville

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Each new addition (aside from Lucina and Dark Pit, who were special cases) were designed with a unique "theme" in mind. Palutena's was to have a versatile fighting style with her custom move options based around the assortment of powers available in Uprising.
I have to ask what is the unique theme with Greninja? I can see with everybody else but Greninja I don't know.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Wew lad.

Besides. We all know only smelly casuals matter to Sakurai compared to us hardcore fans in the long run. :troll:


And no "Whoooooooosh!", for me. You are the one who missed out on the point with the "Young Link" strawman. Cutting any character because they are clones is and always be a horrible idea.
I don't know, I don't think your average joe would have asked for characters like Ganondorf, King Dedede, Diddy Kong, Sonic the Hedgehog, Little Mac, or even Duck Hunt for years.

Wii Fit Trainer and Corrin sounds more like casual pandering to me.
 

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I don't know, I don't think your average joe would have asked for characters like Ganondorf, King Dedede, Diddy Kong, Sonic the Hedgehog, Little Mac, or even Duck Hunt for years.

Wii Fit Trainer and Corrin sounds more like casual pandering to me.
That last part is a massive stretch.

I don't that single middle aged mothers that played Wii Fit would seriously buy Smash just because she's in Smash, soooo....
 

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Sorry that was meant to sound more lighthearted and humorous than it did. He's got good points that do need to be addressed for Daisy to be included as a fighter.
To be honest there's no way to get me to stop wanting Daisy in smash. She could be in a T pose with nothing but a spin as an attack and I'd be crying tears of joy at her inclusion.
I'm living for this character drama though. There's like 3 fistfights going on here at once it's incredible.
Ah. Alright.

And that's fine. I'm a Daisy fan as well; not as strongly, but I'd be happy to see her too.

Talking from a different angle, being clone material and can actually help Daisy, not hurt her in the long run. Clones make a lot of sense from a developer's perspective - easy to make, and if the clone is popular (like Lucina), easy to sell. Clones only really seem to be stigmatised the speculation community because of the premium placed on uniqueness and potential. The importance of being unique and standing out steadily decreases the farther you are from a main character though. Main characters necessarily have to offer something unique, as they are the principal representatives of their games, and being a clone casts their series in a poor light. Sides characters don't have that obligation though.

If you're going to judge Daisy by the same standards that led to Rosalina or Robin being chosen, she is going to lose because she doesn't meet them. Judging her by the standards which got us Dr. Mario, Dark Pit or Alph, feel much more reasonable imo.
 
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I don't know, I don't think your average joe would have asked for characters like Sonic the Hedgehog for years.
Read that sentence again 10 times and see if it still makes sense. :V

I have to ask what is the unique theme with Greninja? I can see with everybody else but Greninja I don't know.
I honestly think the theme for Greninja is just simply "sneaky ninja fighter". Which the closest we've had to one prior was Sheik.
Not every character needs a "gimmick" to go with their theme. /shrug
 

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Read that sentence again 10 times and see if it still makes sense. :V
I was going to tell him that too. :p

Sonic is so big that even kids and non-gamers know who he is. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to see casuals asking for him before Brawl.
 

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Jesus you really go for the throat don't you? You can't even counter that **** we might as well pack up and go home.
I mean, this is a place of debate, so I assumed this is precisely the place to make these kind of points. No malice is intended for liking Daisy, I was merely giving my two cents on why I don't see her as a realistic choice for a character, assuming Sakurai is still in charge of directing Smash.

If a Daisy supporter can still read all of that, take the time to acknowledge my points, and argue back why she's still possible in spite of my wall of text without turning it into a spat, all the more respect to them.
I disagree with him, but we can do that without tensions running high.
Like Fal! What is your disagreement? If there's an aspect of this discussion I'm missing, by all means tell me about it. I know, for example, there are absolutely exceptions to my point that consist of characters made entirely out of creative liberty, like R.O.B.
If you're going to judge Daisy by the same standards that led to Rosalina or Robin being chosen, she is going to lose because she doesn't meet them. Judging her by the standards which got us Dr. Mario, Dark Pit or Alph, feel much more reasonable imo.
Ah, I getcha now. I assumed we were all speaking in the scenario of Daisy solely being her own thing and not as a clone.

In that case, Daisy isn't impossible, but getting into Smash in that case would entirely depend on if Sakurai thinks Daisy is worth being a Peach alt in the first place. If her model is already in the game the way Dark Pit and Lucina were, she's in the running to be a last-minute addition the way they were.
 
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I have to ask what is the unique theme with Greninja? I can see with everybody else but Greninja I don't know.
I vaguely remember him being described as a "slippery" fighter.
 

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You know, if you're looking for unique traits Daisy has, she could always just shout "HI! I'M DAISY!" repeatedly and mercilessly like she does in Mario Kart. Do you really want to hear her say that obnoxious line ever again? NO? Well then, now you've just realized in what way she can be unique, by being Smash's first pure psychological horror!

Seriously though, I feel mostly neutral and don't care at all about whether or not Daisy makes it in or not, but mark my words that if she makes it in that "HI I'M DAISY!" line of hers is going to very quickly become Smash's most annoying taunt, for better or worse.
 

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Main characters necessarily have to offer something unique, as they are the principal representatives of their games, and being a clone casts their series in a poor light. Sides characters don't have that obligation though.
This must also apply to characters like Geno, Lana, or Tsubasa too. But third party ownership is the bigger issue.

If a Daisy supporter can still read all of that, take the time to acknowledge my points, and argue back why she's still possible in spite of my wall of text without turning it into a spat, all the more respect to them.
You're making this harder than it should.

These are all good points, even down to the importance factor. Well ****, too bad Super Mario Land is a dead series and even the fat man stole the show after his debut.

Waluigi got that "LOL random" weirdness and tennis going for him. While Daisy just needs more off the wall powers than flower shots and whatnot. It's a damn shame X Mario spinoff developer will never tap into that full potential.
 

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Like Fal! What is your disagreement? If there's an aspect of this discussion I'm missing, by all means tell me about it. I know, for example, there are absolutely exceptions to my point that consist of characters made entirely out of creative liberty, like R.O.B.
I wrote as much in my previous post.

I feel trying to make Daisy sound appealing by citing sports and spinoff based movesets is an exercise in futility. It hasn't convinced any fan and I don't expect Sakurai to buy it either. Capitalising on the fact that she can be an easy and popular clone, and therefore worth adding to Smash is a much easier route. You only need to let go of the stigma that the speculation community (and no one else) attaches to clones.
 

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I have to ask what is the unique theme with Greninja? I can see with everybody else but Greninja I don't know.
The fact that Sakurai was already set on choosing a 6th Generation Pokemon character before they even left their phase of being concept art speaks plenty for how Greninja is closer to an exception to the rule, imo. Pokemon is very flavor-of-the-month, after all.
 
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