Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Bowserboy3]

Hello - and welcome to the Community Voted Tier List thread!

First off, I want to say a huge thank you to Browny , who came up with the original concept, and is the original creator, who ran this (and technically, still does) for a very long time. I am merely helping him out by running the Community Tier List for as long as it takes. Everything will stay as close to the same as before.

You can check out the original thread, along with all the past tier lists created here - https://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-3-0-complete.379736/



The voting on this version of the list is now over.

Voting will start again after a small break, of around 2 months or so (or if anything notable happens, like Smash Switch being announced etc.

Thank you to all who voted, and I hope you'll continue to vote in the next list!

Until we start up again, feel free to use the thread to talk about the list, character placements, placements in reference to the official 4BR tier list etc. Please keep it free from trolling and sh*tposts etc, though!

With that, here is the final version 4 list


Community Voted Tier List - Version 4 (23 voting periods, 7 months).

Top Tier: ,,,,,,,,,,
High Tier: ,,/,,,,
Mid Tier (+): ,,,,,,,,,
Mid Tier:,,,,,,
Mid Tier (-):,,,,,,,
Low Tier:,,,/,,,
Bottom Tier:,,,,,



Until next time...

---

THIS IS CUSTOMS OFF TIER LIST. CHARACTERS ARE NOT RANKED WITHIN TIERS AS OF YET.

SPECIAL NOTES:

- Mii's are considered Guest size, with the default (1111) moveset.
- It takes +/- 3 to move a character one tier, and +/-10 to move a character two tiers.
- Characters cannot move more than two tiers at once.

FAQ:

Q) Can I vote +2, -3 etc.?
A) No, only + or -1 votes

Q) Why is [character] so low/high?
A) Because that's where they were voted in the last voting round, vote them where you think they should be!

Q) [Character] got enough votes but didn't move?
A) I may have made a mistake in the counting, so please let me know and I'll fix it! There are usually a lot of votes to go through.

Q) Is this customs legal?
A) Unfortunately no. The current metagame is not customs legal, so we will be following suit with this list.

Q) Should I vote depending on what other people are voting on?
A) As Browny put it - "I used to care about this and say no, but then that would go against my idea of being able to vote on literally whatever you want. So go ahead and vote on whatever you feel like, even if that means counter votes."

 

[Deleted member]

1111. They're the most widely accepted ruleset for Miis and the one most relevant to the meta. Voting on Guest XXXX is a shot in the dark because it's based off a limited pool of results in regions where said Miis are allowed.

 

[Zerp]

Guest 1111, they're the ones that people from most metas know about, it's a shame though, I think Europe's got the right idea with guest XXXX, that's how it should be, but that isn't how it is right now for the vast majority of players.

 

[Matt11111]

Personally, I think 1111 should be used to keep things consistent, even though I don't use any of the default specials. Oh well.

 

[Richard 89]

Bowserboy3 how do you vote exactly?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 how do you vote exactly?

The rules are in the top post, but I will link them here:

Right now, we are going to vote on the Mii ruling for this round.

Post a comment with your vote on what you think the Mii's should be classified with in this round. Maybe you think all sizes should be allowed? Maybe you think only Guest 1111 should be allowed. Perhaps you think Guest XXXX is the best choice. Vote on whatever you feel is the best ruling for the Mii's.

For example, my vote:
Guest 1111.

You don't particularly have to reason yourself, but you are more than welcome to explain your reasoning; friendly discussion is always welcomed. For example, I feel that as most tournaments (unfortunately) classify Mii's as Guest 1111, that is why I voted this way.

This round probably won't last very long, perhaps a couple of days at maximum, just until we get a good amount of votes, or reach a general consensus.

Essentially, vote on how you would like to see the Mii's represented in the tier list as we vote over a long time.

 

[Munomario777]

If I have to choose one, Guest 1111 seems the most common. Ideally, though, I think we should have Miis (Guest XXXX) and Miis (Guest 1111) as two separately ranked characters, as I've seen both of them listed in rulesets before.

 

[SkittleGamer]

Hmm.....guest XXXX

 

[Thecombosetups]

I'm for Guest XXXX

 

[Wintermelon43]

Guest XXXX

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Now I would like Guest XXXX a ton, but I feel like we should use the sadly more known one in guest 1111. However Smashadelphia did use Guest XXXX and Dapuffster, arguably best brawler main, only(I'm Saying only because he was seeded higher) got 12th and I don't think he was streamed

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some arguments in favor of XXXX:

1. It's arguably more useful for people looking to pick up Miis, since most/all 1111 are low/bottom tier anyway.
2. XXXX Miis are actually used in some tournaments, while 1111 mostly go unused.

Some arguments in favor of 1111:

3. People tend to underrate XXXX Miis and vote for them as if they were 1111 anyway, which means that XXXX Miis end up too low on the tier list. 1111 Miis are more likely to be accurately placed on the tier list.
4. Many tournaments ban XXXX Miis, while most allow 1111 Miis.
5. XXXX Miis cannot be used in For Glory.


I might have overlooked some relevant argument. I think argument 1 is a very strong one, although 3 is a very strong argument as well... It might be better to not rate XXXX Miis instead of rating them too low, thus giving people the impression that Miis are weaker than they actually are. I'm currently leaning towards 1111 (that's what my locals are using as well, though I don't think anyone actually plays them), though if someone makes a persuasive argument for XXXX I would reconsider my vote. So, Guest 1111.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'm indifferent on this issue. I'd love to vote them based on Guest XXXX, which I believe is the most balanced set of Miis, but for some reason that's not the norm for tournaments, so there aren't nearly enough results to judge any opinions wisely. I guess I'll vote for Guest 1111 because there are actually enough results to prove their viability (or lack thereof), but I won't ever be voting on them this round because of this honestly silly debate on movesets, so feel free to discard my vote if necessary for a close decision.

 

[lbrasz44]

Time to get out of lurking and particiapte in something on these boards again haha.

Gotta vote for guest 1111. Tier lists are supposed to represent the meta as it is currently, and despite the complete difference in style and viability in their other moves and sizes, its unfortunately not representative of how the mii's are currently used in the vast majority of tourneys now.

Its basically the same reason why we don't consider Palutena's position in regards to how useful her customs are.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Have both (as this list allows for both NA and EU to vote and the two areas have different rules), heavily stress in the opening post that if your area doesn't support XXXX Guest, don't vote on them.

The comparison to Palutena is not applicable: nowhere allows her to use her customs.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just as an update, I'll update later this evening (that's evening in my time zone). I said this Mii Voting phase wouldn't go on for too long. The other voting phases will last usually a fair few days, or until we get a substantial amount of votes.

But I will say, if people do want to see both Guest 1111 and Guest XXXX represented on the list, I guess we can give it a go. Though Guest 1111 is looking most likely now, and I do feel just one type of Mii would be easier.

My question though, is do we know enough about Guest XXXX to accurately vote them? Will we be just voting them based upon assumptions?

 

[AlphaSSB]

I vote goes to Guest Size 1111. Its the most 'default' Mii Fighter you can get, and that is how they're displayed in the manuals and advertising as well.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ok, UPDATED.

---

The majority of votes were for Guest Size 1111, so we will focus on those for this tier list. If there is enough outcry, maybe we will add in Guest XXXX at the very end of the tier list, but for now, let's focus on the next part.

I'll link the rules for this first phase. This kind of voting will continue for a while until we see a decent amount of seperation.

Of note, please be aware that Pit and Dark Pit are not joined this time, so feel free to vote on them independently.

Spoiler: Rules

• All characters are considered equal at this point.
• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

I'll start with my vote:

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

Also, just because I am tallying the votes up now, don't expect me to not get involved and discuss things with you all; I like the discussion we have.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+1
+1
-1
-1
-1

 

[Zerp]

I was going to give explanations for my votes, but then I realized that sadly no explanations are needed for any of these guys.
-1
-1
-1
-1
-1

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Bowserboy3 May I suggest that you change the threshold for moving characters up.down one tier to +/-4? With how big of a thread this is likely to become, I want to minimize the chances that a character will move because of a few undetected votes.


Anyway, here are my votes:


+1
In my opinion the best character in the game right now. Sure, he can struggle with a few characters, but he dominates against the majority of characters, most importantly his fellow top tiers. He has an insane neutral game, crazy damage racking with grab combos, an easy time killing with D-tilt and Banana confirms as well as rage and/or platform Hoo Hah, and some of the deadliest edgeguarding of any character. His only flaw right now is his gimpable recovery, but with Monkey Flip recovering after being hit, I don't see it being that big of a problem. Not to mention he has insane representation and results, especially with ZeRo.


+1

I'm going to explain Sonic:


There are tons of different players getting top 8 results with him: KEN, sometimes Komorikiri, 6WX, Wrath, SuperGirlKels, StaticMa--I mean, Spark, Wonf, Craftis, Camalange, and Ixis Naugus, just to name several; and specifically KEN won Umebura S.A.T. with Sonic while only losing two games in the whole tournament, 3-0'ing Nairo and later 3-1'ing and 3-0'ing Dabuz.

His crazy high representation and great results just go to show how good his theory is: His neutral is threatening and hard to predict because Spin Dash is fast and yet you can cancel it. He racks damage like crazy, both with Spin Dash setups and combos and traps from U-throw. He also has very solid kill options in F-smash, B-air, U-air, three of his throws, and occasionally U-smash and F-air, all of which can be set up from a trap, an edgeguard, or simply Spin Dash pressure.

His recovery is quite flexible, as Spin Dash is usable before double jump, and you can air dodge or attack after using Spring. Spring can also edgeguard or gimp, or set up for an U-air if you trap the opponent. He also has an average weight and fall speed as well as an amazing escape option in Spring, so his survivability is decent and he isn't susceptible to many character-specific combos.

Really the only thing keeping him down is his reliance on Spin Dash to approach, but as I mentioned earlier, the fact that you can cancel it and it moves so fast makes it very hard to correctly predict, and it can set up for a high-damaging combo or even a kill if you incorrectly predict its movement.

He may not be second place per se, but I and many others think he is clearly in the upper end of the top tier.

+1

I think it's obvious who I'd like to see rise: .

This character is insane. Have you seen Taiheita? In his last two big tournaments, he placed 17th and 5th, only ever losing to ZeRo, Nairo, and Kamemushi, while 2-0'ing tons of players including Marss and Abadango (he even 2-stocked Abadango).

The only problems with Lucas's theory right now are his mediocre neutral and somewhat gimpable recovery, though both of these are still better than Ness's: Lucas's sweetspot F-air, Z-air, and PK Fire are better than Ness's tools in the neutral, and Lucas has greater air speed, a tether recovery, and more distance with an up-B that's much harder for most characters to intercept.

His combo game might even be better than Ness's, with a N-air that acts similar to Ness's F-air but with even more followup potential at higher percents. (Also, people overexaggerate how much you can SDI it, but not one top player he faced was able to consistently SDI out of it, so...) His tether grab is usually harder to land than Ness's normal grab, but there are setups to it, such as N-air, Z-air, and D-tilt, which can even combo into each other into a grab. He also gets more reward from his grab than Ness does: All of his throws except D-throw can kill reliably (and D-throw can Hoo Hah to kill even earlier off the top than U-throw), which makes his kill game off grabs more versatile than Ness's single amazing kill throw.

His D-throw deserves a paragraph of its own. At low percents it can combo into a footstool or a N-air into footstool, which can set up an extensive jab lock combo that works at least once on every character. At low-mid percents, it can combo into a N-air into any other aerial; at mid-high percents it combos into B-air, which can kill early near the edge, or F-air; and at kill percents it can true combo into U-air. It has such low end lag that it can even true combo into U-smash at low percents! (Not that it's practical, but just to demonstrate its insanely low end lag.)

He also kills more consistently than Ness, with the aforementioned Hoo Hah and kill throws, as well as solid setups into sweetspot F-air, B-air, U-tilt, F-tilt, and F-smash. Speaking of F-smash, it's surprisingly powerful for how quick it comes out, often killing at 80% near the ledge without rage. His D-smash can also 2-frame pretty easily and kill quite early, not to mention that he can jab lock with the tip of D-tilt at the kill percent for any of these options. Sure, Ness can kill earlier, but not as reliably as Lucas can.

At this point in the meta game I would agree with Feelicks in that Lucas is better than Ness, at least a lower high tier. FOW has become quite inconsistent with his results, which seem to keep dropping, whereas Taiheita and the several others who play Lucas just seem to do better and better every tournament. I'm excited for the future of Lucas our bucas!

-1
Sadly, her decent representation with Leet isn't enough to cover up her huge weaknesses and few strengths, making her probably the worst character in the game right now.


EDIT, MY FIFTH VOTE:
+1
It's been made clear that his theory is insane, with a good neutral game containing one of the best projectiles in Water Shuriken, an insanely high-damaging and versatile combo game that can lead to a kill, some really strong and useful ways to kill, and amazing edgeguarding and gimping with Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump, and aerials. Then most of us thought that iStudying's performance at B.E.A.S.T. 6 was just by chance, so Greninja started slipping down the tier list again, and then iStudying proved us wrong by recently placing really high at a major European tournament, only being outplaced by Mr. R and Rich Brown. But what most people seem to forget is that there were plenty of other players from America, Europe, and Japan holding the fort for Greninja's meta game and viability while iStudying was on somewhat of a slump. All of this shows that Greninja is still a top competitor in this game, certainly top 20 in my opinion.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 May I suggest that you change the threshold for moving characters up.down one tier to +/-4? With how big of a thread this is likely to become, I want to minimize the chances that a character will move because of a few undetected votes.

Possibly in the future, but for now, we want a good amount of movement, with all characters being on a level stage. Things will become a little stricter as time goes on.

 

[Munomario777]

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Bowserboy3]

+1
+1
-1
-1

Downvotes Marth and Corrin, but upvotes Pac Man and Duck Hunt.

Classic Wintermelon, oh how I've missed you.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Downvotes Marth and Corrin, but upvotes Pac Man and Duck Hunt.

Classic Wintermelon, oh how I've missed you.

I always up vote the most underrated characters and down vote the most overrated characters on the first round

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I always up vote the most underrated characters and down vote the most overrated characters on the first round

...how are Marth and Little Mac overrated? I can see the other three characters, but Marth has proven himself time and time again to be a top competitor, and no one really thinks Little Mac is too good.

 

[Rᴏb]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I missed doing this

+1
ok seriously

REAL VOTES:

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Sigh, here I am to stop the winter brigade!

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Deleted member]

+1
+1
+1
-1
-1

 

[SkittleGamer]

For starters:

+1 Despite being a Marth clone, she's definitely better than people give her credit for. Since she shares a lot of data with said character, same with her buffs, and the 1.1.4 buffs given to her aerial range were much needed (despite me being proficient with her since maining her since vanilla 3DS days). Results? Best one I can think of is Kogarasuma at Collision XIV. 13th. Funnily enough, that coincides with my next vote.
+1 John Numbers continues to impress me, despite punching a hole in the wall at a recent tourney. He also got 13th, tied with Kogara at Collision. Wii Fit is, imo, heavily, heavily underrated, and with her deep breathing, base kill power with the sweetspot on some of her moves, and the boost with the aforementioned deep breathing (also the hitboxes dooooeee) she is no joke....despite her inclusion in the game possibly being one. Don't sleep on the Trainer.
+1 Yes, Cloud is insane, yes, he's easy as hell to learn, and yes, just about everyone and their grandmother have him in their pocket (how many actually succeed is another story ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)), and yes, the meaning of being a Cloud main has been sullied by it sort of, but you only need to see how ZeRo managed to JV3 M2K to guess that Cloud is NOT best in the game. In the same manner Rosalina isn't the best due to Luma being her life support pretty much (said Luma can be killed, and the character herself be forced to stall), Cloud's limit break can only be used a total of once. Force him to use it, get him to that ledge, and watch as he might try to time the sweet spot on his limited (HAH) recovery and possibly fail. Free counter/Witch Time and R.O.B's your uncle. He's top tier, yes, but it took getting gimped repeatedly, then watching ZeRo ice M2K to turn me off of Cloud, and pursue Ryu instead (the payoff is better, and much more rewarding) Speaking ooof~!

+1 Pretty much everybody I've talked to have said Ryu's full potential is yet to be unlocked. DJ Jack, Trela and a few others have notable Ryu play, and while they are completely insane, and make me feel a tad inadequate (working to fix that~!) his meta is still young. Says a lot about this man, it really does. I mean, search up the hitboxes on his moves, look at the hitstun his moves do, Ryu's a monster.

Lastly!

+1 His gimp game is impressive as hell (the Guardian Orbitars are windboxes and reflectors in one) he has some impressive combos that can be started from his grabs, he has super armour on his side B, the UpperDash Arm, which KILLS as well. Vertically. Perfect for the lightweight top tiers. I'd go on about him, but I'm actually running sort of tired, so I'll say one thing. Earth. Won Umebara, and placed 9th at EVO, just missing out top 8 (shame, I was rooting for him as well)

Anyway, that's mine. Feel free to agree, disagree, whatever.

 

[wedl!!]

*violent puking*

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Deleted member]

*violent puking*

+
+
+
+
+

Lucario's too good, my girl

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°

)

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Might as well try this one out:

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

I see no reason to put any character down this early.

 

[lbrasz44]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

May as well get the obvious ones moving first, hah

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Bowserboy3
I have a suggestion for the community voted tier list that hopefully shouldn't take much effort, but would greatly help:

Can you put the current version of the tier list in your post when you update the thread?

It need not be more than a simple copy-paste from the first post, but it would help in a lot of ways. It would be more convenient for the initial voters, of course, but it would also be helpful for documentation purposes to see how the list evolved over time, and so that people could read the thread from the beginning (which I occasionally do) and understand the reasoning behind some of the votes.

Thanks!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

+
+
+
-
-

Can worry about specifics much later on in the process, just going for vague general groupings

 

[phire_]

+
+
+
+
-

 

[Browny]

I just realised, you called this the same title I did 'SWF community [...]' That was a remnant of this thread being so old, it pre-dated smashboards. I don't even know how old SWF is lol but it should be Smashboards for now

 

[Bowserboy3]

I see no reason to put any character down this early.

Well, think of it like this.

Every character is considered equal right now - think of them all as being in mid tier.

When looking at it from that perspective, characters like Sheik, Diddy and Sonic for example, clearly need an up vote. On the flipside, characters like Puff, Zelda, and Ganon for example, clearly need a down vote. For either being good or bad, those groups of characters are almost certainly nowhere near mid tier.

But hey, that's who I would clearly up/down vote. Use your votes on who you think needs to move the most.

Bowserboy3 Can you put the current version of the tier list in your post when you update the thread?

I was thinking of doing that anyway, but yes, I most likely will. Like you said, it will hopefully make things clearer for new voters who don't read the OP. I'm glad others think it will be beneficial.

I just realised, you called this the same title I did 'SWF community [...]' That was a remnant of this thread being so old, it pre-dated smashboards. I don't even know how old SWF is lol but it should be Smashboards for now

Aha, yeah, I just wanted to keep it as similar as possible, so even the name stuck. Does it mean "Smash World Forums" by any chance?

Either way, you're right that it probably should be "Smashboards" now, so thanks for pointing that out!