So, Why does Lucas Suck?

[Coney]

No, seriously.

I'm seriously asking.

When the game first came out, he was my dude. I used him almost exclusively. When I realized I was doing better with DDD (never, ever losing with him rather than losing once in a while with Lucas), I switched mains. Over the months I lost my touch with him, but now after completing Mother 3 (and reclaiming said skill), I'm trying to pick him back up.

The little guy catches a lot of hell on Smashboards. In one thread, people remarked that out of Mario, Ness and Lucas, Yoshi should ONLY be placed higher than Lucas. On top of this, the typical Ness player is convinced that his character is better and it seems that Lucas mains never attempt to disagree. I just don't see what makes him so awful.

Anyway what I'm trying to ask is, other than the lamentable grab releases--which are now escapable with proper DI, right?--what makes Lucas so horrid? 'Cause I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Turbo Ether]

His moveset is pretty bad.

 

[FireKirby7]

Lucas has nothing that is........ horrid.

Spoiler

Except grab release

If you ask me, Lucas has lots of potential. It's just that not much people are representing Lucas in tourneys.

Nobody ever said that Lucas sucked.

 

[Neon Ness]

On top of this, the typical Ness player is convinced that his character is better and it seems that Lucas mains never attempt to disagree.

Erm, try not to make generalizations like this when presenting your position on a matter... It's fallacious and damages your credibility.

Grab releases aren't the biggest problem. The bigger issue is that Lucas' 3 or 4 worst matchups are in God/High Tier. The tournament scene is crawling with these character mains for obvious reasons, which makes it tough for Lucas. Not a lot of people play him. Another thing, approaching with him is somewhat difficult in a lot of situations... And no, EIDI doesn't work for Lucas, only Ness, I believe, so he can't escape grab releases.

But what others think of him hopefully won't affect your decision to start using him again.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

...another one of these?

 

[Coney]

Erm, try not to make generalizations like this when presenting your position on a matter... It's fallacious and damages your credibility.

Hey, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. I'm certainly not faulting the Ness players for having pride in their character, I'm just saying that I get the impression that Ness players (hell, ANY players) find their character to be better and I see a lot of people that look down on Lucas.

Also, lemme make it clear that I'm not presenting any position. I never said Lucas was good, I simply didn't understand what made him bad. I'm asking, not attempting to persuade, and I'm definitely not trying some underhanded jab at the community for not thinking he's God tier. I just wanted to ask Lucas mainers about their character's weaknesses...they'd know best after all, right?

Sorry if it sounded inflammatory, that certainly wasn't my intention. I just meant to ask: from my experience, Ness players typically think Ness is better, and not just in the one matchup. Lucas players typically don't respond. Why.

But what others think of him hopefully won't affect your decision to start using him again.

No, of course not. I use both Lucas and Ness, the former moreso than the latter. He's got enough tricksies to still be fun for me. Dunno if I'll main him again, but I don't go to that many tournies anyway.

...another one of these?

Yeah, another one. Suck it.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

lol someone is fiesty.

 

[Tyr_03]

Because if he blew, it wouldn't be a kid's game

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I was originally planning a wall of text, but I couldn't figure out how to finish it off without sounding like an ***, so I'll be brief:

On Ness vs. Lucas, Ness just has better options in general. Lucas is something of a one-trick pony in the sense that he uses PK Fire to space, dair to approach, and a combination of jabs, tilts, and nairs to apply pressure at close range. If you can guard against any of the above, you've pretty much shut down that part of Lucas's game. Ness at least has plan B to fall back on. (Last I checked, anyway. I'm not a Ness main.) Lucas does beat the pants off of Ness in the recovery department, at least, and his eternally horizontal PK Fire helps him on defense, but that's pretty much it.

In general, it's already been said that his worst matchups are all top tier, making good tournament results a rarity. IIRC, Lucas is rock bottom in the tournament rankings, which speaks volumes about these matchups. If you'll permit me to possibly make a fool of myself as I talk about that which I may/may not have any right to talk about, I think it's a self-feeding cycle of bad results -> no new players -> no new ideas/strategies -> continued bad results -> repeat. At least it helps me sleep at night.

I think I'll stop here before I delve into incoherency. Hope I didn't make myself look like an idiot...

 

[Irsic]

Those arguments aside and still present, I think Lucas still has what it takes to win. You just have to work thrice as hard as MK, GaW, Falco..etc, mains to get there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So do I, or at least that's what I tell myself, but looking at the list of matchups and seeing mostly 40:60s is a bit disheartening. To say the least.

Lucas needs a hero...

 

[Dxt XXII]

Lucas so far has gotten a really bad rep. I believe he belongs higher on the tier list, but not by much. Most of the problem is his matchups against the most used characters in tournies (G&W and Marth), and the fact that there are only about 5 good Lucas players.

 

[ComboTurtle]

you gotta hit the player when Lucas' foot goes down or curves down..

 

[Irsic]

you gotta hit the player when Lucas' foot goes down or curves down..

You have the found the secret of Lucas.

 

[PKNintendo]

TC's talking about me.


Yeah Lucas sucks pretty badly, blame Sakurai not me. Crap matchups, an even crappier moveset, grab release problems and nothing special or game breaking.

I had high hopes for him. Your wrong, SBR praises the little prat.

 

[Levitas]

I think it's because the only way you can win against a competent player playing a good character not named falco is to blindfold them or something.

Lucas has options that would make him better in a game more like melee and 64, where the one doing the blocking was frequently at a frame disadvantage.

Nair would be much better if it had some shieldstun.

 

[lil cj]

Lucas doesnt suck....IMO
And I dont think Ness is better...they r about even
Like Mario is with Luigi
Lucas has the potential to be great...he jus has no fans
Nair, dair, jab, ftilt, and PK fire are too good...and to top that off his smashes are extremely powerful
...Other than Marth, G&W, and grab release
I see nothing wrong with him

 

[Irsic]

Hey Levitas, stop forgetting about the OBR.

 

[Levitas]

lol, ok. I'll see what's up later tonight.

 

[Irsic]

Also, February 28th, you better be at SCOTU's tournament.

 

[SSD]

Because when it comes down to getting out of theory and into practicality, tournament results are what you need to look at. Lucas has some pretty horrid results, so there is no real evidence to show that lucas doesn't suck when theory is thrown out the window and you actually have to beat the other guy.

 

[Chuee]

Guys all we have to do is secondary a character that counters G&W and marf, like me. My secondaries are mk, gw, and marth. mk for G&W's, G&W for marfs, and marth for mk if i lose first match. too good amiright.

 

[Irsic]

Because when it comes down to getting out of theory and into practicality, tournament results are what you need to look at. Lucas has some pretty horrid results, so there is no real evidence to show that lucas doesn't suck when theory is thrown out the window and you actually have to beat the other guy.

So what you're basically saying is, Lucas' image is that he sucks because there isn't anyone good out there who plays him.

Or at least, goes to tournaments and places.

Except for Galeon.

 

[Levitas]

Also, February 28th, you better be at SCOTU's tournament.

As cohost, you can bet I'll be there.

Also, I'm gonna be at the west bloomfield thing this weekend. (like, seriously)

 

[Irsic]

As cohost, you can bet I'll be there.

Also, I'm gonna be at the west bloomfield thing this weekend. (like, seriously)

Link me. I'll be home this weekend.

 

[Levitas]

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=4139

There you go.

 

[akkon888]

Most of the outside world (Outside of Lucas Sub Forum) have not faced a good Lucas main. If there is no proof that Lucas is good, then he isn't good. Once more people play him, they will realize he has extremely good potential.

 

[FireKirby7]

Most of the outside world (Outside of Lucas Sub Forum) have not faced a good Lucas main. If there is no proof that Lucas is good, then he isn't good. Once more people play him, they will realize he has extremely good potential.

That's good and bad at the same time...

Good part is that you can really show them what Lucas can do. I've surprised so many people online with dtilt/dair combos, it's so fun. XD

 

[Natch]

I think it's because the only way you can win against a competent player playing a good character not named falco is to blindfold them or something.

Lucas has options that would make him better in a game more like melee and 64, where the one doing the blocking was frequently at a frame disadvantage.

Nair would be much better if it had some shieldstun.

Brawl+ should fix that then.

And boo, I'm back. I was playing some of the funnest doubles friendlies I've played in awhile. Using Lucas(and I still B-Stick). Lots of fun was had, and I was actually pulling off all of the old stuff I used to-PK Fire sniping, spikes, all of the little fun combos he has, etc.

It was fun stuff.

I told you I'd be back, didn't I? Now that I'm a better player, I can make better use of all of little tools Lucas has. And I am a better player. Just yestardy(and earlier today, like 2am earlier today) I got out of pools at SCSA #2-a tournament hosted by none other than DSF. You had to be better than half the people in your pool to do that.

 

[Samuelson]

I got out of pools at SCSA #2-a tournament hosted by none other than DSF. You had to be better than half the people in your pool to do that.

It was 4 people per pool and top 2 made it out...nothing to be super proud of but good job anyways.

 

[Levitas]

You don't understand. DSF, Fiction, SK92, and him were in the same pool and he got first seed.

 

[illinialex24]

You don't understand. DSF, Fiction, SNK92, and him were in the same pool and he got first seed.

Oh that is pretty impressive.

 

[Natch]

It was 4 people per pool and top 2 made it out...nothing to be super proud of but good job anyways.

>_>

Math wise, this isn't different from having 8 people per pool and having top 4 get out. And besides that, you don't realize how much I sucked just a month ago. For someone who was flat out wrecked by everyone he played, I've come a long way. I say it like it's a big deal because it IS a big deal.

You don't understand. DSF, Fiction, SNK92, and him were in the same pool and he got first seed.

...

Funny.

-DSF didn't enter the tournament
-His name is SK92
-DEHF is better than SK92

 

[xoxokev]

Lucas sucks because I don't main him anymore

JUST KIDDING... but seriously...

Spoiler

just kidding haha i still enjoy kicking butt in friendlies with Lucas hehe

 

[Chris is me]

On top of this, the typical Ness player is convinced that his character is better and it seems that Lucas mains never attempt to disagree. I just don't see what makes him so awful.

Stop talking to Colin so much.

Lucas and Ness aren't even directly comparable, though I'm honestly of the opinion that Ness is more competitively viable and should be tiered slightly higher. It's not like you can go "Lucas's PKT2 is longer thus it is better" as they play entirely differently.

Guys all we have to do is secondary a character that counters G&W and marf, like me. My secondaries are mk, gw, and marth. mk for G&W's, G&W for marfs, and marth for mk if i lose first match. too good amiright.

IF you're secondarying MK, why aren't you using him to beat all three?

 

[A New England Winter]

...

I like Captain Jack's Lucas

 

[professor mgw]

r u guys dumb? lucas do not suck! ya probably do not know how 2 use him!

 

[Ref]

Some people are lazy and refuse to learn to use a character at it's maximum... Even if a character is bad.

I'm lazy so I'll just play 1 character...

I like Oats. That dude is cool.

 

[Natch]

r u guys dumb? lucas do not suck! ya probably do not know how 2 use him!

Um, yes he does. If you compare him to top tier, he sucks. If a character is not "broken", they suck. It's all relative.

Also, learn some basic spelling and grammar, please.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

...

I like Captain Jack's Lucas

Does he play Lucas? Vids please. And thanks Ref? I'm garbage.