Data Standard Custom Moveset Project: Toon Link / Custom Move Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

An idea for making custom moves legal in offline Wii U tournaments has been gaining a lot of popularity, and people have been posting about it in character forums to ask about it, so I figured I should post about it here. Basically, the idea is to have each character board come up with the best custom movesets for their character, and someone with all necessary custom moves unlocked on the 3DS version would be able to upload these custom movesets to Wii Us at tournaments.

In order to participate in this, list what you think are the top custom movesets for Toon Link. Putting them in no particular order, or in order from best to worst are both fine. An explanation for each set would be good as well. Also, keep in mind that this is intended for offline tournaments, so whether a move is good on wifi or not isn't worth considering here (the sliding spin attack is a perfect example of a custom that sucks on wifi, but at least isn't bad offline).

This thread is also for discussing Toon Link's custom moves in general.


Honestly, this is the only one I have:

2121 (Fire arrow, boomerang, sliding spin attack, bomb)
The fire arrow is amazing for stage control, and makes approaching Toon Link a nightmare for a lot of opponents. While the fire arrow is busy making it difficult for the opponent to approach you can more easily stop their attempts at approaching by going crazy with your bombs and boomerang. While I normally like the floating boomerang for its defensiveness, with the fire arrows covering the ground you need a faster and stronger projectile to cover the air.
As for the sliding spin attack, it might seem like an odd choice at first, but it's actually really good. With our poor horizontal recovery and often being forced to recover under the stage, TL is very easy to gimp. However, the sliding spin helps fix this problem. With the sliding spin you can recover to the edge from over by the blast zone, making it quicker to get back to the stage, riskier for an opponent to gimp you, much harder for an opponent to spike you, and overall just makes things a lot harder for an opponent that wants to edge guard you. Its vertical recovery actually isn't that bad, either, and considering how rare it is that you'll need lots of vertical recovery over horizontal recovery, its lack of strong vertical recovery isn't much of a drawback.

I also think the short fuse bombs have a lot of potential, but haven't played around with them enough to know which moves they work best with. I just know they don't go well with the flying spin attack, since they're less likely to be able to help you recover with the flying spin attack's super armor. Other than that, the bomb seems to be amazing offensively. The explosion is about 1/3 the size of Final Destination, which on smaller stages (which TL happens to usually not be as good on) can turn most of the stage into a hazard zone. It's amazing for gimping, as well, and can be fun to run up to an opponent while holding it then shielding the explosion.

What do you guys think?


Current Custom Moveset Project list for Toon Link:
2111 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Spin Attack, Bomb)
2121 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Sliding Spin Attack, Bomb)
2131 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Bomb)
2113 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)
2133 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)
2112 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Sliding Spin Attack, Timer Bomb)
2211 (Fire Arrow, Floating Boomerang, Spin Attack, Bomb)
2213 (Fire Arrow, Floating Boomerang, Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)
3131 (Piercing Arrow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Bomb)
1113 (Arrow, Boomerang, Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)

Old Custom Moveset Project list for Toon Link:
2133 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)
2131 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Bomb)
1131 (Hero's Bow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Bomb)
2113 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)
2123 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Sliding Spin Attack, Short-Fuse Bomb)
2132 (Fire Arrow, Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Time Bomb)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Interesting that you bring up Sliding Spin Attack. I've tried using the move a lot and it just seems worse at everything. If it killed or the startup was less I'd love it though. For recovery it seems awkward too, I prefer the kindasafe upb 3 because super armor.

I think needs these:

1. 2131
2. 1131
3. 2133
4. 2233
5. 2331
6. 2333


Upb 3 should probably always be used over the other 2. Mainly because of it's super armor in the rising slash part. It can save TL from a gimp and since it doesnt rise much until the super armor part, it makes it weird to gimp. Fire arrows are pretty cool but there's a set there with regular arrows if the TL player likes those. Both bomb 1 and bomb 3 are good and it depends on which one the TL player prefers. Before the BLC removal, I only would've considered dropping regular bombs in some matchups but now short-fuse bombs might even be better than bomb 1.

EDIT: I personally see no use in Upb2 or Bomb 2.

EDIT 2: Or the 3rd arrow either. That one woulde been ok vs rosaluma if it did some sort of hitstun or more damage. But it does none of them >_<

 

[Deleted member]

Interesting that you bring up Sliding Spin Attack. I've tried using the move a lot and it just seems worse at everything. If it killed or the startup was less I'd love it though.

It's a little weird to get used to at first, but you'll get used to it eventually if you keep trying. Also, it's going to really suck if you try using it online since the button lag can really screw it up, so it can seem really bad if you use it on wifi.

Upb 3 should probably always be used over the other 2. Mainly because of it's super armor in the rising slash part. It can save TL from a gimp and since it doesnt rise much until the super armor part, it makes it weird to gimp.

My worry with the rising spin attack is that you have to get too close to the stage before you can use it, giving the opponent more than enough time to gimp you before you've even gotten to try recovering.

 

[TLMSheikant]

It's a little weird to get used to at first, but you'll get used to it eventually if you keep trying. Also, it's going to really suck if you try using it online since the button lag can really screw it up, so it can seem really bad if you use it on wifi.


My worry with the rising spin attack is that you have to get too close to the stage before you can use it, giving the opponent more than enough time to gimp you before you've even gotten to try recovering.

It has super armor and doesnt rise much at first, which makes it incredibly tricky to gimp. I won an offline tourney here with 2131 and rising slash saved me from a few sheik gimp attempts and little mac downsmashes (hits right before sweetspotting) with the super armor. That was before BLC got removed though, I will probably go 2133 in the Dec 7th tourney if they allow customs again.

 

[Deleted member]

It has super armor and doesnt rise much at first, which makes it incredibly tricky to gimp. I won an offline tourney here with 2131 and rising slash saved me from a few sheik gimp attempts and little mac downsmashes (hits right before sweetspotting) with the super armor. That was before BLC got removed though, I will probably go 2133 in the Dec 7th tourney if they allow customs again.

I meant that you can easily be gimped with the rising slash before you even get the chance to use it, since you'll have to approach the stage first. Using it too early if an opponent is going offstage is going to KO you because of its lack of horizontal recovery, but doing the same with the sliding spin would hit the opponent and land you on the stage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It looks like the Toon Link thread is still at Outset, but this character has IMO the most interesting custom moves of any character so I'm very interested to see what you guys figure here (I cannot be trusted with Short Fuse Bombs...). What we're specifically looking for are up to three critical movesets that represent the most generally useful options this toon has to offer while we'll fill up to slot 6 with supplemental options that may be more niche but that some TL players will want to pick at least sometimes. Slots 7 and 8 are held for 2222 and 3333 so all Toon Link players will have every custom move available on their set-ups for maximum exporation in the early metagame, and of course, 1111 does not need to be listed as an option since it is always available no matter what. Slots 9 and 10 are held for 3ds import on tournament day. Thank you in advance for all of your help in showing what TL's best way forward on these custom moves is.

 

[Deleted member]

The more I think about it and test things out, the more I think TL's short-fuse bombs should always go with his regular spin attack. He gets infinite recovery, so the regular spin attack's poor recovery compared to the other two doesn't hurt him, and anyone who would try to gimp you would go flying from the explosion. TL's flying spin attack has too much super armor, so you could lose your infinite recovery from that, which isn't worth it. The sliding spin could be awkward to recover with using the short-fuse bombs, and you won't have to worry about getting gimped, anyway, so there's no reason to use that one, either.

As for the arrows and boomerang, I still can't decide which would work better with the short-fuse bombs. The normal arrows would help with attacking opponents that are father away, which is especially important since your bombs don't attack as far. The fire arrows + short-fuse bombs would make TL terrifying to recover against, since the short-fuse bombs are absolutely amazing for gimping, and using fire arrows by the ledge can force an opponent to either do a normal ledge get-up and shield, roll from the ledge, or jump, all of which are easy to punish. I don't think the short-fuse bombs change anything with the boomerang except that the fast boomerang is even more useless with its bad range.

So yeah, I think short-fuse bombs go best with 1113, 2113, 1213, and 2213.

 

[mush21]

I'm also a fan of the rising slash both on and off stage. I wanted to like the sliding one (wind waker fan here), but the startup is ridiculous on that move. If you could control it's movement and it started faster, it'd be so much better. Between tether for horizontal and rising for vertical, his recovery is pretty solid.

I also like fire arrows for stage control (just wish they flew a little farther) and either regular or short fuse bombs.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry about the name-changes to the thread's title, after the thread was stickied I decided to try focusing on a more official-sounding name for it. I'd like to think the current name should work.

Also, just to list the movesets that have been mentioned so far:
1. 2121
2. 2131
3. 1131
4. 2133
5. 2233
6. 2331
7. 2333
8. 1113
9. 2113
10. 1213
11. 2213
There seems to be a lot of disagreement here, lol... And it doesn't look like any have gotten mentioned more than once, either. It would really help us a lot if we had more people commenting here...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I find a lot of what TLMSheikant was saying matching my own intuition, but I really can't be trusted with Toon Link. I see a very strong case for up-3 as a general standard but some love for up-2 from at least one player (but it's not a common feeling). I get a sense no one really wants neutral-3 or down-2 and that most support for up-1 is pretty theoretical. We could go with TLMSheikant's list, but I'm not sure of the side-B choices and how those play out and if any of those sets are droppable for an up-2 set.

 

[Deleted member]

I find a lot of what TLMSheikant was saying matching my own intuition, but I really can't be trusted with Toon Link. I see a very strong case for up-3 as a general standard but some love for up-2 from at least one player (but it's not a common feeling). I get a sense no one really wants neutral-3 or down-2 and that most support for up-1 is pretty theoretical. We could go with TLMSheikant's list, but I'm not sure of the side-B choices and how those play out and if any of those sets are droppable for an up-2 set.

We definitely shouldn't go with the 2133, 2233, or 2333 sets (or any xx33 sets, for that matter). As I mentioned before, thanks to the super armor on the flying spin attack, TL won't be able to blow himself up after recovering to use his second recovery again with the flying spin attack, unlike the normal and sliding ones. This makes pairing the flying spin attack and short-fuse bombs together a huge waste, and a very bad idea for recovering. The short-fuse bombs should always be paired with with normal spin attack so he can use the bombs to recover as much as he wants since the normal spin attack doesn't have super armor.
I'm not closed to the idea of using the flying spin attack, and I'm sure it has its uses, but it should definitely never, ever be paired with the custom bombs.

Also, the sliding spin attack is definitely needed for TL, mainly for dealing with characters that can gimp him since the sliding spin attack helps him get to the ledge before he can be gimped. The best placement I've gotten in a Smash 4 tournament was one where customs were legal, and I can tell you I wouldn't have placed as well as I did without the sliding spin because I would've lost stocks from getting gimped instead of being able to recover to the ledge straight from the blast zone. I think too many people are writing the sliding spin off because it seems odd/is different or because they had a bad experience with it on wifi (and it does seriously suck on wifi, but we're talking about offline play here, not wifi, so how moves do on wifi is irrelevant). I wrote it off at first for these reasons, too, but after giving it a try offline I can say it's easily the best of his spin attacks when paired with the normal bombs (the normal spin attack is better when paired with the custom bombs).

Also, when do we have to have these discussions done by? We haven't gotten enough people replying to this to make a solid list, and this thread was posted only a few days ago.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think, synergy or not, 2133 makes a lot of sense to include as a goodstuffs option that would be favored by a lot of people. What I'm not sure about are some of his sets that have boomerang 2 and 3 since there hasn't really been substantial discussion on the boomerang variants.

I'm going to put out an early list Thursday evening, but it won't be complete so much as a baseline version that TOs who want to run customs cna take advantage of. v1 of this project will be official at the end of the year which is a lot of time to tinker and test.

 

[Deleted member]

"I'm mostly trusting TLMSheikant, but I'm including one set with Short-Fuse Bombs and default Spin Attack for maximum recovery even if very, very risky recovery due to the raw power of Short-Fuse Bombs"

First off, I'd like to say that the custom moveset project is a great idea. Custom moves are fantastic for balancing the game, and the fact that custom moves seemed difficult to make legal on the Wii U version made a lot of people (myself included) uninterested in playing it competitivel;y. The custom moveset project offers a solution to this, and should go without saying that this is a very positive thing.



That said, the part about short-fuse bombs + the rising slash being safer is completely false. TL being able to blow himself up to get his recovery back after using it was a massive help in Brawl, and it's hurt him pretty bad that it's much, much harder to do that with the normal bombs in Smash 4. The short-fuse bombs not only solve that problem but allow even more recovery because of the shorter fuse, which is a large part of the reason they're so appealing.
I'm not sure if I made this clear enough before, but since the rising slash has super armor that prevents you from regaining your recovery after getting blown up, this makes the short-fuse bombs + rising slash a lot more risky than the other custom spin attacks and cuts out a large part of the benefit from the short-fuse bombs.
If you're going to cut out the option of using your upb more than once, you'd hope the upb you have is at least going to at least give decent vertical and horizontal movement, but the rising slash has unnoticeable to no horizontal movement. It actually doesn't even give much more (if any?) veritcal recovery than the normal upb, either, so you're taking a large and unnecessary cut to your recovery which makes things even more unsafe. A lot of the main positives of the rising slash are its super armor and the last hit making it hard and unsafe to attack you while you're using it, but not only do the short fuse bombs cover this risk, but you don't get the kind of boost in recovery that's necessary here.

On top of losing the moves' biggest benefits, the drawbacks of the moves are obviously still don't lose the normal drawbacks that can cause them to be unsafe at times. Getting caught in a situation where you can't throw the bomb you're holding is still going to do 10% damage and send you flying, and the rising slash not being able to be used on-stage without throwing TL into the air and put into freefall, along with the other issues the two moves cause together, make them easily the most unsafe moveset combination. There's no benefit to that combination from a safeness standpoint unless the TL decides to hold onto a bomb while doing the rising slash even if it won't give them their recovery back, but even then they'll still take 10% damage, and for no good reason since they won't even get their recovery back.

This isn't just theory, either; I've tested it a bunch before and after reading TLMSheikant's list, Trust me when I say it didn't go well at all. I could go on, but overall, the short-fuse bomb + rising slash largely cancel out each other's benefits while doing nothing to help out with their flaws. Also, I'm not just saying all of this about XX33 because I don't like it. I'm not sure how I feel about the others, either, but I'm open to the idea that they could turn out to be good. However, XX33 isn't going to provide any benefits no matter how you look at it, and will just cause problems with the bombs and rising slash canceling out each other's benefits. And while I'm open to being proven wrong here, I'm 99.999999999% sure that isn't going to happen. If I'm wrong and XX33 turns out to be any good I'll switch to purple TL lol. Edit: Now that I think about it, just switching to purple TL isn't enough. I'll also pick up pikminless Olimar as a secondary.



Obviously, I'm not expecting this to be fixed at least until v1 comes out, and it's obvious that we're going to have some bizarre sets at first. It's especially hard to get good sets together when you have around 50 characters you're trying to come up with custom moves for, and even worse when some character boards (such as this one) give few replies. Still, I think that really needed an explanation for why it doesn't work since it could give people false ideas and get people tinkering around with custom movesets (as in, XX33) don't work. XX33 making up 4/6 of the list could give people the false impression that it must be good when it's not. People tinkering around with a custom moveset idea they think works but doesn't = less effort being put into custom moveset combinations that have potential.

At the very least, I hope that by clarifying on this that we can get some discussion going and come up with some alternatives.



Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, I keep hearing other TL mains say that fire arrows + timer bombs seem to be good. I'm not sure I like the timer bombs very much besides their stage control and being able to help you recover without doing massive damage like the timer bombs, but I think that combination is worth looking into if people like it so much.

 

[NewZen]

I personally cannot find any use for any of his other customs other than Short Fuse Bomb and High Speed Boomerang, honestly. Considering the tether is still a very good recovery option as opposed to his Up-B, I can never really decide on Custom sets for Toon Link. Fire Arrows allow for stage control, but that's assuming your opponents can't already find ways to avoid them considering they cannot go very far or don't do much damage besides the flame residue.

Then again, that's just me.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally cannot find any use for any of his other customs other than Short Fuse Bomb and High Speed Boomerang, honestly. Considering the tether is still a very good recovery option as opposed to his Up-B, I can never really decide on Custom sets for Toon Link. Fire Arrows allow for stage control, but that's assuming your opponents can't already find ways to avoid them considering they cannot go very far or don't do much damage besides the flame residue.

Then again, that's just me.

I'm really curious why you say that about the fast boomerang. Personally, I've been trying to find a use for it but have been almost completely unable to.

As for the fire arrows, you'd be surprised what kind of terrible positions they can put opponents into. Characters like Sonic and Little Mac get their approaches completely destroyed by them, and other characters have their approaches hurt, too. This forces them to approach from the air, which for a lot of characters is a bad option. Fire arrows are also amazing for edge guarding, since shooting one by the ledge forces a lot of characters, if not most of them, to jump. If you read them well it's easy to throw them off-stage again with fair, and the process starts all over again. As for characters that can roll from the edge through the fire arrows, their options are still very limited, so you always know they're either going to jump or roll. Another thing is if the opponent is in the air and you know where they're going to land, you can put a fire arrow there for free damage. A lot of the time you can then use the hit stun to get a free fair, or bait an air dodge so you can punish them when they land. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realize how broken the fire arrows are and that I could sit here listing uses for them forever. lol

 

[Cam~]

I find myself using only a few Custom Moves; Fire Arrows, Floating Boomerang, Flying Spin Attack, Time Bombs, and Short-Fuse Bombs.

I'm gonna go over my opinions on Custom Arrows and Boomerangs more in depth, since those are the ones people seem to argue the most about, and also, some combinations that can be done:

Hero's Bow

Fire Arrows: In my opinion, these are very underestimated. As Dr. Artemis said, there are a lot of awkward situations you can put the opponent into. The reason many people are biased against these is because they serve a different purpose from the regular Arrows, which are supposed to be used to rack up damage. The Fire Arrows are more useful for stage control and defensive gameplay. The combination of these and the Time Bombs gives you pretty good stage control, and along with the fact that they're extremely useful for edgeguarding, this should give your opponents a hard time approaching.

Piercing Arrows: These Arrows are terrible. They deal pitiful damage and have next to no knockback. They are basically a very, very bad version of Mega Man's lemons (N-Air, Jab, F-Tilt). They aren't useful in any circumstance, not even in the Rosalina Matchup where it can go through Luma and hit Rosalina mainly because of their terrible range (and damage). I tried using them in an 8-Player Smash so I could pierce through opponents but they didn't do a good job there at all. Try to stay away from these.

Out of the two, the best one is clearly Custom 1, the Fire Arrows, for their superior utility, damage, and just everything all around, but they serve a different purpose than the normal ones, so it's up to you.

Boomerang

Floating Boomerang: According to the Super Smash Bros. wiki, this is a more powerful Boomerang, which is completely false. This Boomerang is a lot slower on the way out and especially in, but more importantly, it is also weaker. It only does 4% every time, no matter if it was returning or coming out when it hit (It is a bit stronger on the way back, though). However, this Boomerang isn't really 'bad'. It gives you SOME stage control and sometimes, it might annoy your opponent. It might also draw them into a Side Smash or another attack, thanks to the small stun they have. This Boomerang shouldn't be used offensively; it's more of a defensive option, so if you want damage, you should stick to the regular Boomerang.


Fast Boomerang: Oh gosh this is terrible. The Fast Boomerang is supposed to come out quickly to surprise your opponents. It can pierce and hit through the opponent, return and strike again. However, even if it does this, the damage output is still bad, lower than the regular Boomerang, and not worth it. Want to know a fun fact? This Boomerang has a much slower start up than the regular and Floating Boomerangs. There is absolutely no reason to use this Boomerang over the other two.

The Floating Boomerang is the better Custom, but as stated before, it has a different use, so again, it's up to you.


As for the Spin Attack and Bombs, all of the Customs are great and serve their own purpose. The Sliding Spin Attack is underestimated. When paired with Short-Fused Bombs, it gives you really good recovery. The Flying Spin Attack's slash has Super Armor, so it is NOT A GOOD IDEA to pair it with Short Fuse Bombs. Other than that, it's very good and I find myself using it a lot. It might not seem like it but it goes a little higher, and because of the awkward and quick ascent (with super armor!) it's VERY hard to get gimped or spiked.

Time Bombs are also very underestimated. They can KO the opponent (yes, they are very strong) even though they just deal around 2% damage, and you can 'cook' it, like a grenade, so that when you throw it, it explodes. Try not to throw it directly at an opponent unless it's about to explode, instead take 2 out and throw them around the stage. Short Fuses are great and self explanatory. They unfortunately deal less damage but they have great knockback, like the Time Bombs.

All in all, these are some combinations you should use. These are the main four I use:

22?3 (Great Stage Control)
??23 (Great Recovery)
2131 (Different Playstyle)
22?2 (Even Better Stage Control)

* ? Stands for any. It's a personal choice.

 

[Deleted member]

So some other people and I have messed around with TL's custom moves some more, and from what I've learned from it:

Custom moves that compliment each other:
- Normal spin attack + custom bombs / XX12 and XX13. Not only was the recovery from TL's spin attack nerfed from Brawl, but it's also harder to blow yourself up after recovering to get your recovery back. The custom bombs help solve this problem while giving few drawbacks, unlike when paired with the other spin attacks. This gives you pretty good and near-infinite recovery.

- Fire arrows + timer bombs / 2XX2. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this one, but other TL mains tell me they pair well together for stage control.

Custom moves that work against each other:
- Custom spin attacks + custom bombs / XX22, XX23, XX32, and XX33. The custom bombs are great for improving your recovery compared to the normal bombs because they blow up quicker, making it much more likely you'll be able to use your upb again if you did it while holding a bomb. As has been mentioned before, this is much harder to pull off with the rising spin because of the move's super armor. They also don't work well with the sliding spin, since first off you generally get as much recovery as you need from the move. Second off, if you somehow end up needing more recovery, it turns out that blowing yourself up with a bomb before using the sliding spin can often badly hurt your recovery distance (as in, very little vertical or horizontal recovery distance) if you try to use your upb too soon after getting blown up. Basically, the bombs are generally either not necessary or not helpful.

- Piercing arrow + everything / 3XXX. I don't think this one even much needs explaining, the piercing arrow is just terrible. It's not even good against Rosalina because her gravity can just eat the arrow.

- Two or more of the following paired together: fire arrows, fast boomerang, and short-fuse bombs / 23XX, 2XX3, X3X3. 23X3. These moves have poor range, so camping is going to be really difficult with two or more of those as your specials.

Of course, custom moves pairing well together doesn't automatically mean the custom moveset is great, and custom moves not pairing well together doesn't always mean they're terrible (except XX32 and XX33, those are awful). Still, it's important to keep in mind what benefits of each custom move you could be gaining and losing by pairing them together, and sometimes pairing complimentary/conflictory moves together can be a huge game changer.

Custom movesets by potential, in my opinion (in no particular order except with the better ones at the top and worse ones at the bottom; also, blue = really good, red = should never be used for any reason):
2111
1113
2121
2112
2131
2113
2211
2212
2221
1121
1131
1111 (put here for reference)
1211
2123
2213
2313
2222
Any piercing arrow set (3XXX) not mentioned elsewhere
Any XX33 or XX32 set not mentioned elsewhere
3132
3232
3332
3233
3133
3333 (this one is easily the worst)

If I didn't mention a custom moveset, it's either because I don't know enough about it to be able to say with confidence if it has potential or not, or I forgot about it. If I put anything twice (which I probably did), it's a typo.

 

[Fangblade]

Has anyone seen that Fox reflector glitch with Olimar? I have a feeling doubles at customs move tourneys will be hell 'till this gets patched.
No doubt it'll be banned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMMxmMVO9gA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Yokoblue]

Has anyone seen that Fox reflector glitch with Olimar? I have a feeling doubles at customs move tourneys will be hell 'till this gets patched.

It will be banned just like Pika-G&W combo. Its easily bannable in 2v2 since you can ban the custom move overall or ban a teammate with reflector

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Toon Link's current sets in the project are:

2133
2131
1131
2113
2123
2132

For the purposes of EVO, we can fill up to 10 slots and have to have this figured out by March 27, but I want to be done by March 17 to account for unexpected delays. I didn't feel like we were able to do Toon Link proper justice last time, but hopefully having a bit more room to work with should be just enough to really give this character everything he needs so he can be brought to the next level on the national stage.

 

[Deleted member]

So Jash was saying that he likes our piercing arrow custom, and that he thinks it's good for edge guarding, cancel out anyone camping us since it apparently goes through every projectile in the game, and that it's mainly good for cancelling/stealing second jumps and overall being anti-air. Thoughts on this, guys? Personally I haven't messed around with the piercing arrows enough to know enough to really comment, and honestly just dismissed them without giving them a real try like our other customs since at first glance they seem like garbage. That said, I honestly hadn't thought of using them against other projectile users to get through a wall. Our normal arrows are already pretty terrible, so I could see the damage and range sacrifice being worth it in some match-ups.

Also, I've heard of people getting stage spikes with the short-fuse bombs just by standing by the ledge where an opponent is hanging.

Toon Link's current sets in the project are:

2133
2131
1131
2113
2123
2132

For the purposes of EVO, we can fill up to 10 slots and have to have this figured out by March 27, but I want to be done by March 17 to account for unexpected delays. I didn't feel like we were able to do Toon Link proper justice last time, but hopefully having a bit more room to work with should be just enough to really give this character everything he needs so he can be brought to the next level on the national stage.

Imo, the completely necessary sets:
1. 2111
2. 2121
3. 2131
4. 1113
5. 2112

Other sets I've heard of a lot of TLs using, even if I think they aren't all that great:
1. 2113
2. 1131
3. 1121

Imo, 2221 and 2231 are also underrated. So I vote 2111, 2121, 2131, 1113, 2112, 2113, 1131, 1121, 2221, and 2231.

Edit: I also just noticed that the fast boomerang has a sort of "jab lock".

 

[ultrament2]

I think
1113 is a good set up but it takes out some options.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So Jash was saying that he likes our piercing arrow custom, and that he thinks it's good for edge guarding, cancel out anyone camping us since it apparently goes through every projectile in the game, and that it's mainly good for cancelling/stealing second jumps and overall being anti-air. Thoughts on this, guys? Personally I haven't messed around with the piercing arrows enough to know enough to really comment, and honestly just dismissed them without giving them a real try like our other customs since at first glance they seem like garbage. That said, I honestly hadn't thought of using them against other projectile users to get through a wall. Our normal arrows are already pretty terrible, so I could see the damage and range sacrifice being worth it in some match-ups.

Also, I've heard of people getting stage spikes with the short-fuse bombs just by standing by the ledge where an opponent is hanging.


Imo, the completely necessary sets:
1. 2111
2. 2121
3. 2131
4. 1113
5. 2112

Other sets I've heard of a lot of TLs using, even if I think they aren't all that great:
1. 2113
2. 1131
3. 1121

Imo, 2221 and 2231 are also underrated. So I vote 2111, 2121, 2131, 1113, 2112, 2113, 1131, 1121, 2221, and 2231.

Edit: I also just noticed that the fast boomerang has a sort of "jab lock".

The piercing arrows are actually surprisingly good just as Jash said. Where normal arrows would clash with another small projectile and cancel both out, the piercing arrows cancel the other projectile and keep going. As a disruptive move they are fairly useful even just in terms of their speed.

Also, yes, the third custom boomerang has locking properties but only on return.

 

[ultrament2]

I vote Timer Bombs (Bomb Custom 2) being one of the more useful ones since you can BFO with them out of a forward throw (tested in the latest patch on the 3DS)

 

[ILJ]

2131 is the best.

You need the bombs for guaranteed combos, time to juke, set up combos,etc!

Fire arrows further assist in camping and give toon link time to pull out a bomb or run.

Flying spin attack looks cool (lol) and appears to give toon link a better vertical recovery though idk if it's true or not. But the final fly up portion might be able to gimp our spike...thoughts.

 

[Deleted member]

After testing around a bunch, I'm starting to think that piercing arrows are deserving of a slot since they cancel out and go right through the opponent's projectiles. Since they're more useful in match-ups where opponents can throw projectiles at you if you try to recovery horizontally, I don't think they should be paired with the sliding spin attack. Theoretically I can see them going best with the flying spin attack because of its super armor, which would save you from issues involving recovering close to the stage like Megaman's dair.

Also, the more I test the fast boomerang the more it seems completely useless. Its speed and ability to cancel out and pass through the opponent's projectiles imo just does not make up for its horrendous start-up (leading to you getting hit by a projectiles long before you can get it out), range, and damage output. I really want to think that it's useful, but I can't find a use for this boomerang at all. Has anyone else been able to find this boomerang to be useful at all?

2131 is the best.

You need the bombs for guaranteed combos, time to juke, set up combos,etc!

Fire arrows further assist in camping and give toon link time to pull out a bomb or run.

Flying spin attack looks cool (lol) and appears to give toon link a better vertical recovery though idk if it's true or not. But the final fly up portion might be able to gimp our spike...thoughts.

I've tested this a bunch and it does seem to go higher than the normal spin attack, but only slightly. The slight increase in vertical recovery you get from it often doesn't make up for the decrease in horizontal recovery imo, especially since this forces you to recover closer to the stage where you can get gimped more easily.

 

[ILJ]

After testing around a bunch, I'm starting to think that piercing arrows are deserving of a slot since they cancel out and go right through the opponent's projectiles. Since they're more useful in match-ups where opponents can throw projectiles at you if you try to recovery horizontally, I don't think they should be paired with the sliding spin attack. Theoretically I can see them going best with the flying spin attack because of its super armor, which would save you from issues involving recovering close to the stage like Megaman's dair.

Also, the more I test the fast boomerang the more it seems completely useless. Its speed and ability to cancel out and pass through the opponent's projectiles imo just does not make up for its horrendous start-up (leading to you getting hit by a projectiles long before you can get it out), range, and damage output. I really want to think that it's useful, but I can't find a use for this boomerang at all. Has anyone else been able to find this boomerang to be useful at all?


I've tested this a bunch and it does seem to go higher than the normal spin attack, but only slightly. The slight increase in vertical recovery you get from it often doesn't make up for the decrease in horizontal recovery imo, especially since this forces you to recover closer to the stage where you can get gimped more easily.

Yea, his fast boomerang seems useless. Less damage, doesn't set you up for combos nearly as easily as the regular boomerang, and sucks because it ISNT camping effective. It goes through opponents....thus, making us more vulnerable to rush down play style and more exposed in general.

As for flying spin attack...I guess it depends on the character, still not sure about that one yet.

Piercing arrows are super weak but may be a good pressure projectile, plus they come out quickly. Canceling out other projectiles is a great stabilizer....it may also be useful for speedy characters to stop momentum...like sonic, capt falcon, sheik....think about that one....

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
2111 2131 3111 3131 2113 2133 3113 3133 2121 3121

This lineup wasn't too difficult to make. You guys seem to understand your best Custom Specials so I based your lineup around combinations of them. I also included a few niche sets involving the Sliding Spin Attack. Keep note, that the sets as they are will not have any default Arrows nor alternate Boomerangs. Make sure you're all okay with this before the deadline hits, aight?

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

Toon Link:
2/3, 1, 1/3, 1/3 and niche XX2X sets
2111 2131 3111 3131 2113 2133 3113 3133
Niche: 2121 3121
Note: Why aren't any other Boomerangs being used?

 

[Deleted member]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
2111 2131 3111 3131 2113 2133 3113 3133 2121 3121

This lineup wasn't too difficult to make. You guys seem to understand your best Custom Specials so I based your lineup around combinations of them. I also included a few niche sets involving the Sliding Spin Attack. Keep note, that the sets as they are will not have any default Arrows nor alternate Boomerangs. Make sure you're all okay with this before the deadline hits, aight?

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

Toon Link:
2/3, 1, 1/3, 1/3 and niche XX2X sets
2111 2131 3111 3131 2113 2133 3113 3133
Niche: 2121 3121
Note: Why aren't any other Boomerangs being used?

2111, 2131, 3131, 2113, and 2121 make sense and should stay. 2133, 3113, 3133, 3111, and 3121 aren't very good sets for TL, though. I mentioned why custom bombs and custom spin attacks (especially spin attack 3) should never go together in other posts above. As for 3111, I don't see it having much advantage over 3131. For example, the piercing arrows would be good for match-ups like Megaman, but his dair makes it dangerous to recover low (I'm pretty sure at least one other projectile user has this sort of thing, but I forget who). The default upb will get you spiked while upb 3 has super armor to save TL from the spike, so 3131 pretty much makes 3111 irrelevant. And as much as I love spin attack 2, it makes TL easy to gimp with projectiles which are the match-ups arrow 3 is used for, so 3121 isn't good, either. 1121 would probably be a better set to use instead. With arrow 3 and bomb 3, personally I've tested those two together a lot lately and the lack of range on the arrow + not being able to throw the bomb very far before its fuse runs out really hurt TL when the two are paired together.

As for why other boomerangs aren't used, quite a few of us TL mains have been trying to find a use for the fast boomerang, but we've completely failed to find one. Its poor range, horrendous start-up lag, near-nonexistent hitstun, and poor damage output has made it very hard to find any use for it. As for the floating boomerang, personally I think it's underrated. While it's not good for all match-ups, it's very good against characters that combo the crap out of TL (especially grab and utilt combo stuff, like with Luigi, Kirby, Mario, etc.) since it sticks around long enough to break TL out of combos, unlike the other boomerangs. Overall it's a much more defensive and match-up specific boomerang, so I can see why it would be unpopular because of this.

Personally I used to have the floating boomerang paired with the fire arrows and sliding spin attack (which generally worked pretty well, I only stopped using the boomerang because it wasn't useful in most match-ups), and theoretically I can't think of anything better it could go with. The sliding spin attack, like the floating boomerang, is great for breaking TL out of combos (mainly aerial combos like fair > fair), and the fire arrows allow for ground control that makes it harder for combo-heavy characters to get in on TL. And while I haven't used this set at all since November or so, back when I used it it seemed to do a very good job of preventing opponents from starting combos. Actually, I might start testing around with this set again.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Piercing Arrows aren't nearly good enough to be represented in 5 sets. I agree with Dr. Artemis that Neutral B 3 will be used only in certain matchups and should be paired with rising slash for those matchups. One set with them should be enough.

After some thinking and consulting with Dr. Artemis through Skype I think these are the 10 sets I would like to see:

2111 2121 2131 2113 2133 2112 2211 2212 2213 3131

2111 2121 2131 2113 3131 are definetely staples imo. 2133 is there for those that want the better ledgesnap of upb3 in conjunction with short-fuse recovery (though be cautious of the armor frames if you need to upb3 when recovering with short-fuse). I can see enough uses for Floating Boomerang to warrant a few sets with it. Dr. Artemis told me another TL said it's good for edgeguarding and it makes sense. It can also come in handy in some matchups to break out of some long combos. Time Bombs could drastically alter some matchups to be in our favor. Something tells me it's a good idea to pair these mine-like bombs with the slow, floaty boomerang and fire arrows for maximum annoyance. Then there's 2 edgeguarding centered sets with floaty rang and the other 2 types of bombs to have 10 sets.

 

[ultrament2]

I've been experimenting with customs a bit and implementing tech with them as well.
Sliding Spin Attack should NEVER be used with SAF. It's not only risky but the style points is not worth using it in any situation. Ever.
Rising Spin Attack, however, is a totally safe option for SAF and can be used to get off stage and catch people trying to recover AND BE ABLE TO RECOVER YOURSELF.
Fast Rang is an amazing option when used with the Momentum GLiding for offstage punishing since you can toss it out with the momentum, and they're caught and can't do anything, making punishing offstage worht it. being able to recover, however, might be in question.
Slow Rang is better used for edgeguarding and the only angles used are inbetween angles. It's still better than Fast Rang in every instance.
Timer Bombs and Short-Fuse Bombs ultimately come down to preference. Timers blow up sideways and are great mines, Short-Fuse are great for punishing floaties and their blast radius can make throwing them down hit both you and your opponent, leading to some misleading setups. Throw down into bair out of hitstun, anyone?

I like your sets, btw, Sheikant, although I prefer something more neutral like 1113.

 

[Deleted member]

If it wasn't implied already from Sheikant's post, I think those are the sets we should go with. Though, now that Ultrament mentioned it, 1113 would be nice but I'm not sure we have time to discuss what it should replace. If anything I personally would have it replace 2212. But yeah, Sheikant's sets are much better than the preliminary sets John posted earlier imo, and I think they're a nice compromise for the completely different kinds of sets people like to use for TL.

 

[Ikes]

as a toon link main who likes to control neutral with a lot of bombs and use them to start combos a large amount of the time, would short fuse bombs be better for me than regular bombs?

I also currently use Fire arrows for the stage control and area denial

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
2111 2131 3111 3131 2113 2133 3113 3133 2121 3121

This lineup wasn't too difficult to make. You guys seem to understand your best Custom Specials so I based your lineup around combinations of them. I also included a few niche sets involving the Sliding Spin Attack. Keep note, that the sets as they are will not have any default Arrows nor alternate Boomerangs. Make sure you're all okay with this before the deadline hits, aight?

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

Toon Link:
2/3, 1, 1/3, 1/3 and niche XX2X sets
2111 2131 3111 3131 2113 2133 3113 3133
Niche: 2121 3121
Note: Why aren't any other Boomerangs being used?

I'd suggest replacing one of the lesser used sets in there with 2211, I understand that you said no custom boomerangs but ive been using it and the fire arrows work oddly well with the floaty rang

 

[Deleted member]

as a toon link main who likes to control neutral with a lot of bombs and use them to start combos a large amount of the time, would short fuse bombs be better for me than regular bombs?

I also currently use Fire arrows for the stage control and area denial


I'd suggest replacing one of the lesser used sets in there with 2211, I understand that you said no custom boomerangs but ive been using it and the fire arrows work oddly well with the floaty rang

Whether you should use default or short-fuse bombs depends much more on the match-up than preference. Personally I've found short-fuse to work very well against Ganon, and alright against Jiggz and Ike (I'm sure there are other characters they work well against, too). As for combos, both bombs have combo potential. Comboing with the default bombs is easier imo since you have more time to react to what the opponent does. Also you can say go for bomb>fair and if the opponent shields the bomb you'll recatch the bomb and be safe, and even get shield pressure on the opponent, but with short-fuse you would've instead taken at least 10% from the bomb. Also, we already have 2211 as a set. Which I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier, but it should really be 2231 instead since upb3 is a straight upgrade of upb1. Oh well, we can always try for it next time.

 

[Sp0nge]

Been trying out TL lately, especially with his customs. From what I can tell the short fuse bombs are used in a complete different way than the normal bombs. Sure you can throw them out like normal bombs, but you can't really close in like you could with the normal bombs or else you eat 10%. What I like to do is just get out a bomb and pick a well timed defensive option. I'll hold shield, and the worst case scenario is that I get grabbed and the bomb trades. Spot dodging works sort of the same way. Air dodging with the bomb is good for edge guarding because it covers a lot of space and it's actually pretty safe. Like you said^, it is really matchup dependent because certain characters can probably just punish you for taking out the bomb even from far away and then of course you get yourself into a really bad situation when it goes off and you can't make a defensive option. If someone can catch onto the mechanics of the bomb they can easily just capitalize on this weakness and force an air dodge, for example, into an aerial, or pivot grab a forced roll, etc etc...

Because of this, I really just prefer normal bombs. The other bombs are fun I guess but they're too gimmicky, any character can also just do the instant toss if you decide to throw it, and the defensive options while holding the bomb I mentioned before are only good until the opponent catches on and/or they have a character that can easily punish you. They're not even good for recovering with the normal up special since it can actually kill you at high percents .-.

That said, my preferred sets right now are 2111 and 2121. I think normal up special is actually a pretty decent OOS option, which is why I'm afraid to change it up. For every other reason, I think sliding is better.

 

[Deleted member]

So I've been messing around more and more with Gay's custom moves lately. The floating rang is surprisingly good imo. Its low knockback means it can easily combo into almost anything (except an aerial). At higher %s I've found floating rang>bthrow to work for killing. At lower %s the move works very well for a sort of 'chain grab' with dthrow where you can dthrow someone, throw the rang behind you, then regrab when the opponent gets hit. The floating rang is also very good for interrupting combos, as well as long multihit/trapping moves like kong cyclone. It also can't be reflected on return, and disappears if it hits a reflector, making it a solid option against characters with reflectors. Since it sticks around for a while and chases you, it's also surprisingly good at covering your escape.

I've found short-fuse bombs to be surprisingly useful as well. Their large hitbox can make it very difficult for characters that approach by air, where the normal bombs would be much less difficult to land. They're also great for breaking you out of grabs (I've even had them save me from Ganon-cides), and make it very easy to gimp characters we normally can't gimp. Combine that with the fire arrows, as well as the sliding spin so we can go deep off-stage, and Gay's edge guarding becomes completely absurd.
These bombs also wreck Villager beyond hope. Villager can't do anything with them if he pocketa them since they explode too quickly after he takes them out, and they're an incredibly brutal punish for planking with the exploding balloons. Short-fuse bombs alone will usually make Villager eat 30%, even as much as 50%, just for trying to plank. If he hasn't lost his stock yet either from the high knockback on the bombs or from getting stage spiked, it should be fairly easy to take that stock by putting a fire arrow on the ledge then positioning yourself so you can charge a usmash and have it hit him regardless of whether he jumps or rolls from the ledge.
Short-fuse bombs are also absolutely godlike on Duck Hunt and Dreamland 64. They make Gay's platform camping absurd, and at higher %s you can throw a bomb on the opponent from the tree on DH or the top platform on DL64, then uair the opponent for the kill at surprisingly low %s.

Also, I still can't find a use for the high-speed boomerang. It has its good traits about it, but I can't find any way to make any actual use of them.

I've also been taking notes on which customs work best in each match-up. Here's what I've gotten so far:

Spoiler

Captain Falcon: 2121/2131

Charizard: 2121

DeDeDe: 2113

Diddy: 2131

Donkey Kong: 2121 (2213 vs wind god DK)

Duck Hunt: 3131

Falco: 2221

Fox: 2221

Ganondorf: 2121/2123

Ike: 2121/2123

Jigglypuff: 2123

Kirby: 2121/2221/2223

Link: 2131

Little Mac: 2131

Lucario: 2131

Lucas: 2131

Lucina: 2121

Luigi: 2223

Mario: 2231, 2112 for campy Marios

Marth: 2121

Megaman: 3213

Meta Knight: 2121/2123

Mewtwo: 2121

Ness: 2131

Pacman: 2131

Pikachu: 2121

ROB: 2121

Rosalina: 2121/2123 (3121/3123 against star bit, or 3131 or 2113 if 3121 and 3123 aren't available)

Roy: 2121

Samus: 2131 or 3131

Sheik: 2121

Shulk: 2121

Sonic: 2121, also Hylen says the high-speed boomerang (x3xx) is good against Sonic

Toon Link: 2121/2131

Villager: 2123

Wario: 2121

Yoshi: 2121/2131

Zelda: 2131

ZSS: 2?3? (I need to test around more with the rangd and bombs)

As for stages that work well with each custom:

Spoiler

Fire arrows: like platforms for platform camping and fire walls, and short stages. BF, DL64, T&C, SV (the platform is surprisingly good for letting you snipe second jumps below you off-stage), Duck Hunt, and Prism Tower on the 3DS are good. FD not so much.

Piercing arrows: Like long flat stages with few platforms. FD and SV are good for them.

Floating boomerang: Dislikes platforms, but they aren't too big of a deal. FD is good for it.

High-speed boomerang: Dislikes every stage because it's bad lol

Sliding spin attack: Likes stages where you can scrooge with the upb, Prism Tower on the 3DS being a perfect example. It also likes walked-offs (fire arrow>fair/rang>upb2 kills as early as 30% and is completely safe on walk-offs because you can't fall to your death afterwards), and stages where it can be used to escape, like Duck Hunt (from the bush to the tree) and transformation 2 on Castle Siege (to reach a top platform on the other side of the stage). Dislikes transformations since you can miss the stage more easily from decreased vertical recovery, but if you know you can't reach that platform you can always try the hurricane boost to make it back. It also dislikes sloped bottoms like on SV, T&C, the third transformation of Castle Siege, and Miiverse.
This upb is surprisingly good on Lylat, since it's the only upb of Gay's that slopes up the stage if it tilts.

Flying spin attack: Likes low platforms to land on quickly after using offensively to make it harder to punish, and a low ceiling to kill off the top. Generally not too big of a deal, but BF, Lylat, and Halberd work well with it.

Short-fuse bombs: Like platforms for sharking and platform camping and low ceilings for killing. BF and Delfino are good. They're fantastic on Duck Hunt, DL64, and Lylat.

Time bombs: No preference that I can find.

 

[FOR SCIENCE]

Just in case customs have any life in them at all at this point I think 1131 is better than 3131

 

[-m0]

I think
1113 is a good set up but it takes out some options.

Can I put in my vote for this? I know this post is mad old and customs are frikkin dead lol, but I love customs and some discussion would be cool. This is default with the shoryuken spin, right? I like this one because you can actually kill with it, and that fits my overuse of grounded upb.