Start pushing the meta

[ted dorosheff]

If you dont already know, PMDT announced that they are disbanding and that 3.6 is the last official version of PM to be released. That means that every character in their current form is what we have to work with -- the PM cast is now in the same situation as the Melee cast, but far more balanced.

That being said, lets discuss ZSS meta. There was a post in the Lucas forum that was basically asking Lucas players to discuss and push his meta game. I know for certain that ZSS as a character has a meta game that is mostly unexplored, so lets try to push the boundaries on what our babe can do.

I'll start:

First hit of fair has so much potential as a poke that sets up a grab. Ive been getting better at timing the fair so that only the first hit connects so that immediately afterwards i L-cancel and get a grab off. Its the best option for this because of how fast it comes out and the zero knockback.

Also last night i found something pretty cool, its more of a tactic than a move specific nuance like the first hit of fair is. I was in a zss ditto, and i messed up the spacing on dsmash -- it was shy just a couple pixels. The other zss shielded it, as she should have, but since i was already expecting to follow up with an fsmash, the other zss took the full force of my fsmash right as she dropped shield.

Im thinking that the flubbed dsmash, combined with the slow startup of fsmash presented a two-part attack that has completely unique timing. They are two of her riskiest moves, but maybe there is something to be gained from intentionally flubbing a dsmash and baiting someone out of their shield.

 

[Dr.Big72]

I'm glad we ended with near perfect character in terms of character design. ^-^ I can all agree that fair has its utility as a combo finisher. I often experience a similar usage of single hit fair after fast-falling. Works similar to her jabs in most regards for shield pressure mix-ups and can led to some grabs. I always remember using fair even back when it was less reliable and found it to be versitile enough not to be discouraged by its drawbacks. Although I personally have grab heavy tendencies, it's a viable mixup.

There's always something about changing the pace of when attacks come out that can get some opponents caught off guard. Forward smash is definitely one of those attacks. With sparing use of course.

If I were to bring up anything is how are we going to deal with meta threats? Im looking at GnW, Spacies, and Wario.

 

[ted dorosheff]

what do you mean by "meta threats"? i see your character references, but am just confused about your verbage.

 

[Infinite]

I think he just means strong characters in the current meta?

I also enjoy the first hit of fair to grab as a nice mix-up.

Baiting with Dsmash is a great tool if you space the flub properly. There is little end lag on the move meaning you can stuff basically any rush in approach.

Fsmash on the other hand is extremely risky to throw out especially if the opponent shielded your DSmash. If you are willing to assume the risk that the shield stays up and eat a full punish the reward may be a stock at the right percent. At early percents it doesn't seem worth it as you get nothing out of Fsmash besides maybe a tech-chase.

 

[ted dorosheff]

Fsmash on the other hand is extremely risky to throw out especially if the opponent shielded your DSmash. If you are willing to assume the risk that the shield stays up and eat a full punish the reward may be a stock at the right percent. At early percents it doesn't seem worth it as you get nothing out of Fsmash besides maybe a tech-chase.

Ahh yes. The two-part attack dsmash(flub)>fsmash should only be used to close out a stock.

 

[Roxas215]

Im interested to see how we figure out game and watch and spacies

 

[Dawnz_]

I know a lot of zss players talk about spacies being hard, I don't have amazing player experience but I've always liked fox I feel like he's much easier than falco and wolf seems ok too. Lately I've been trying to figure out a lot with falco cause I feel like that matchup is going to give me a quite a bit of trouble.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Whats the trouble with G&W? I've never actually played one :/. What I'm getting from this is that either G&W is top tier (which he isn't) or that ZSS sucks against him. Or, that none of you don't know how to play against him.

 

[prem]

I've played against a decent g&w (hes not actually a g&w main but he plays him decently often) and ive never thought the matchup was that bad. zss is really good at punshing his upb out of combos with upb and just being super fasst with long limbs to punished the wiffed dair. neutral I haven't found his bacon too obnoxious just got to use platforms, zss can combo him really well otherwise and its at least super easy to kill him.


also I just tested it and learned you can do a fully invincible hax dash with zss, but i need to test how big this window is and how hard it is still

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Yeah, theory crafting here, but I don't think G&W should really be able to challenge our movement and actually hit us. And not only do we have up B to control space above us, we have uair, nair, and multiple, high reaching jumps. Which rocks. And in neutral, I think wavebounce whips would be super useful for covering that WD --> option he likes to use.

 

[ShadowKing]

There's nothing wrong with G&W.Anyways with ZSS I like to start off with grab-up air-up air

 

[Infinite]

At low-mid level play I think people may struggle with his disjoint and lasting hitboxes. Once you learn to space around G&W, as ZSS you can run circles around him, but that won't necessarily get you damage.

His n-air covers any option when we pop up from the ledge and his punishes are unreal. Definitely don't underestimate him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeiDqijzP5k

 

[Infinite]

I'm not to the point of frame data etc just yet, but I like an early nair grab, nair uptilt or nair jab. I also try and get them to respect the area in front of me by throwing out some side-b's and down smashes at safe distances.

 

[G13_Flux]

the only thing with GW is that ZSS definitely beats him neutral. she also has kill confirms off a grab on him (RAR bair in particular), which means her punish game on him is pretty good as well. shes also already one of the most mobile characters in the game, and has incredible disjoint on some attacks. When lumped together, thats something GW tends to suffer against.

Additionally, ZSS is one of few characters with attacks that definitely beat out GWs dair (mainly up b, but also upsmash). this makes it not so safe per se for GW to be in the air after an OOS, which is a big reason hes got pretty good MUs atm.

not sure i see him beating her.

 

[Infinite]

I think ZSS beats him, I just meant it's definitely not a gimme.

 

[Red(SP)]

I know a lot of zss players talk about spacies being hard, I don't have amazing player experience but I've always liked fox I feel like he's much easier than falco and wolf seems ok too. Lately I've been trying to figure out a lot with falco cause I feel like that matchup is going to give me a quite a bit of trouble.

I'm a novice, but my friend plays a very defensive play-style. We played maybe 2-3 hours of Fox v. ZSS. I'm not a Fox main but I can play spacies proficiently albeit this was all done without multishining (I haven't grinded for those yet). I'm willing to say the MU is even on both ends.

I noticed ZSS has a lot of decent normals which made it hard to get in as Fox (w/o trading hits I mean). Lasers are pretty bad in this game in terms of camping imo so I use them to unscale moves. He beat me 85% of the time probably because I was going without sleep for about 18 hours or so, but he only three stocked me once and I three stocked him right back.

Spotdodge is pretty good against rushdown. Now that I think about it, I wonder if I could just shine her after whiffing Fox's drill. I would have to play a little more of the MU and get better overall, but I realized that ZSS is a very strong character in her own right, being able to do well against Fox in this game. I think I'm going to put some time into learning her tbh.

 

[G13_Flux]

I'm a novice, but my friend plays a very defensive play-style. We played maybe 2-3 hours of Fox v. ZSS. I'm not a Fox main but I can play spacies proficiently albeit this was all done without multishining (I haven't grinded for those yet). I'm willing to say the MU is even on both ends.

I noticed ZSS has a lot of decent normals which made it hard to get in as Fox (w/o trading hits I mean). Lasers are pretty bad in this game in terms of camping imo so I use them to unscale moves. He beat me 85% of the time probably because I was going without sleep for about 18 hours or so, but he only three stocked me once and I three stocked him right back.

Spotdodge is pretty good against rushdown. Now that I think about it, I wonder if I could just shine her after whiffing Fox's drill. I would have to play a little more of the MU and get better overall, but I realized that ZSS is a very strong character in her own right, being able to do well against Fox in this game. I think I'm going to put some time into learning her tbh.

ehh the problem is that fox is one of very few characters that can out DD ZSS (arguably the only other one is CF). not only that, but his nair is the champion of long lasting hitbox approaches, and it can very often covert for him very well, and very easly goes through, and punishes blaster attempts. ZSS also doesnt have any OOS options quicker than frame 7, and she succumbs very hard to shield pressure behind her, especially on shorter characters. the combination of these things make dealing with fox in neutral very challenging. on top of that, he still has a great punish game on you (obviously) but is also a disproportionately good punisher of tethers.

i think falco is the easiest of the space animals to deal with personally. mainly because his mobility is much worse than ZSSs (especially when theres platforms) which means hes eating more punishes. ZSS also has some relevant counterplay to lasers since her SH is relatively high, her SHFFL is very good, and her crouch (and thus, crawl) is very low. This opens up the ability to force falco to mix up high and low lasers much more. additionally, ZSS naturally gets kills on him much quicker, and his punishes/edgeguarding of tethers is arguably not as good as fox's or wolfs.

 

[ted dorosheff]

Glad to see the debate fellas.

I think that the G&W MU is difficult without having a familiarity of the character (obvious statement, but even more so with G&W just because of how un-intuitive the character is). G&W is a strange critter, with most of his moves being completely un-telegraphed and with very minimal endlag on his normals. Ive said this before on other threads, but fsmash is seriously handy in this MU. Lasers help out a lot too, and if you can get him to start bucketing early, make him fill that bucket up and then just stay away.

1. when you are in shield, however he starts to apply pressure, HE IS GOING TO FOLLOW UP WITH DTILT, so wait till after the dtilt to grab.
2. dont go above him, just dont.
3. Figure out when to use your DJ to get away from his aerial combo.
4. not exactly sure here, but fsmash will kill him around 80%
   
   

 

[ted dorosheff]

As for the Fox MU, it really does depend on the playstyle of the fox. I have the most experience against a fox main who is extremely tech dependent and applies heavy shield pressure with multi shines and super fast shffl'ing. Against these types of Foxes, you really just have to know when is safe to throw out a hitbox while in shield (lol, never?). No but seriously, watch out for the shine follow up off of any aerial, when you shield an aerial approach. One thing that works well for me is to follow up any of my aerial confirms with an utilt, especially uair. If you can be frame perfect with the utilt (shffl uair > immediately utilt) you can usually get a second utilt after the first, if fox is < 90%. Oh and if i've confused anyone, all of my talk about aerials refers to when fox is grounded.

Fox is super easy to edge guard too, so if you get him off stage, make him fear your dsmash.

 

[Dawnz_]

Run off paralyzer
is pretty hilarious against spacies

 

[ted dorosheff]

Run off paralyzer
is pretty hilarious against spacies

omg doing this!

 

[G13_Flux]

im curious. anyone started implementing footstools with ZSS? ive started implementing them with nair strings that lead offstage at lower-mid percents. doesnt secure the kill per-se outright (unless is bowser or DK, especially without a jump lol), but you can immediately side b/up b to the ledge to set you up for a follow up edge guard. at this point, you know their trajectory is going to be straight up (unless they have a recovery with high mix up/wall jump potential. you can close out with an easier edge guard at this point using the uair semi-spike hit, bair, or reverse fair. if you want to get really fancy, you can also dair them > footstool right away with intangibility.

The dair > footstool part is something that i think should be implemented a lot more even without the beginning sequence. for characters like ike, i can see this being a big deal.

 

[pwbluesky]

A big thing to extend your combo game as ZSS is to use dair to extend combos, usually out of u-air. It can also lead to more follow-up options or different combo finishers.
Like mentioned above, mixing up dair/footstool when above an opponent can be significant as a mixup as it changes the timing of the tech window.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Footstools, I've been using them a bit recently, but only a little bit for exploring (and of course against DK, lol). Dair to footstool seems situationally good. Run-off paralyzer is funny, it's really odd that it works considering the semi spike is supposed to link into the sweetspot but doesn't. A lot of the time I do run-off dj nairs instead.

~~~~

Any cool tricks you guys use? Right now, I'm really liking wavebounce lasers since I can jump at them, and then fade out quickly and fire a blaster. It's a nice change-up of rhythm and throws off their expectations (a shffl uair or nair normally), not to mention that it's normally safe. I normally get a neutral to positive exchange (except when it's powershielded) since it'll punish an anti-air, net me stage advantage on a dash back, or keep them in shield far away enough that I either can't be punished, or be able to swoop in with a jc grab or shffl. How many of you guys use this?

 

[Lust for Glory]

What are the options you guys go for / like to use after ledgedashing? What options would you guys consider the most rewarding, or the lowest risk?

I personally like jab, as it gives me the option to push em back, or pop em up if they're relatively floaty and at decently high percents (around 80). The fact that you can change how fast or slow, or how many jabs you throw out makes me like it more than utilt, which is definitely more rewarding, but riskier.

 

[ted dorosheff]

What are the options you guys go for / like to use after ledgedashing? What options would you guys consider the most rewarding, or the lowest risk?

I personally like jab, as it gives me the option to push em back, or pop em up if they're relatively floaty and at decently high percents (around 80). The fact that you can change how fast or slow, or how many jabs you throw out makes me like it more than utilt, which is definitely more rewarding, but riskier.

Do you mean after wavelanding onto a platform or onto the stage from ledge? i dont understand the scenario

 

[Infinite]

Do you mean after wavelanding onto a platform or onto the stage from ledge? i dont understand the scenario

I think he means wavedash from the ledge.

I think DSmash is a decent option. Definitely will give you the most reward but is risky depending on the spacing. I also like DTilt. It lets you space a bit further away than UTilt but still pops them up nicely. Jab or grab are definitely the safest options as you can generally react to there defensive/offensive option they choose. Shield -> grab, Attach -> jab/dtilt. If they start to spot dodge, DSmash. It's also good to mixup by not throwing out an attack. Wavedash back or maneuver past them to take center stage.

My, albeit inexperienced, pennies.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Do you mean after wavelanding onto a platform or onto the stage from ledge? i dont understand the scenario

I think he means wavedash from the ledge.

Pretty much what a ledge dash is.
Dtilt is something I never thought about tbh. I'll try it out and see how that goes for me!

Even though this is from a while back (mid 3.5?), i've somewhat been keeping this ( https://gfycat.com/SardonicFamousEft ) as a form to surprise my opponent every now and then from the usual options to get back on stage, and it usually gives me good results in making the opponent respect me, even if for that 1 edge guard attempt. It may seem that you waste a tether with that attempt, but if you can get haxdashing down with zss, you can recover your tether usage as well as a way to juke out your opponent on how you will get back on stage, since faking em out with a haxdash can lead to a very easy and brain dead ledge hop fair, etc.

 

[prem]

The fully invincible haxdash with zss requires like a really dumbly steep angle which is why i never posted about it because it wasn't very frame lenient and messing that up was just death

 

[G13_Flux]

for the record, a perfect ledge dash with ZSS gives 10 actionable frames that have invincibility. This is one of the better ones in the game. you can jab, grab, dtilt, utilt, and even get out most of your aerials. heres a list i made of characters ledge dash frame data (just scroll down to the bottom if it doesnt automatically):

http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3-5-stats-list-still-wip-wavedash-ranks-added.335019/page-5

Her ledge dash is really the most important ledge option you should use because of its safety and reward. if im looking for a quicker option, however, it is usually fair because it hits twice. sometimes, you can also ledge drop > down b wall jump > bair as a mix up.

 

[ted dorosheff]

Was talking about this with prem yesterday. Ledgedash is something i have underutilized with my play, and definitely plan on practicing it. That being said, i think Lust for Glory 's perspective on the jab option is really strong. Its just so flexible with the options; 3-jab gtfo, slow shield break jab, jab dtilt, jab grab, jab utilt, etc.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah her jab is honestly a pretty strong option in a lot of cases. frame 2 with a 3 hit sequence, and the last hit having some meaningful KB. I am still messing around with it, but im pretty convinced that her jab can be a solid neutral option on its own. Since her DD is so good, her run speed is so fast, and jab is so quick, its not hard to condition your opponent to staying on the move (i.e wont be CCing) and therefore you can often peg people with a quick jab hit while simultaneously staying quite safe because of its low commitment.

 

[ted dorosheff]

WD > jab is a good option. Speaking of options, i had an idea about listing out all her options in various states (neutral, edgeguard, ledge recovery, etc) and then ranking them all by safety, most rewarding, most coverage, etc. I think a spreadsheet would be the easiest way to do this. Also, we could reorder the ranking of options as the meta further develops.

My desire to have something like this is based out of the reality that i find myself in, where i am falling into patterns and habits with my options. Some options may simply be the best for a given scenario, and need not be reconsidered. However, by having a spreadsheet or even a print out that one could glance at from time to time, maybe something useful will be discovered.

 

[ted dorosheff]

After thinking more about this idea, im starting to realize some flaws in the basic premise of it. Some options, quite simply, work better or worse based on MU. Edguarding with dsmash, for example, is a better option against an offstage Fox than it is for Dedede. It may be that a ranking system like this would be more MU independent when it comes to ZSS options in neutral, but at that point it probably will be smaller in scope and not need something like what i originally had in mind.

 

[Infinite]

After thinking more about this idea, im starting to realize some flaws in the basic premise of it.

Ya be wary of a flowchart showing the "best" option. One it can slow down the growth of the meta. And two your game plan becomes more robotic. Rather than react to the player you react to the scenario. I saw somewhere on an old interview of mango on YouTube how m2k would always choose the best option but mango would roll over him by doing 'stupid moves that shouldn't work'. All he had to do was cover the "best" option.

 

[ted dorosheff]

Ya be wary of a flowchart showing the "best" option. One it can slow down the growth of the meta. And two your game plan becomes more robotic. Rather than react to the player you react to the scenario. I saw somewhere on an old interview of mango on YouTube how m2k would always choose the best option but mango would roll over him by doing 'stupid moves that shouldn't work'. All he had to do was cover the "best" option.

Yeah thats a good point, i hadn't thought of that. That would be much further down the line though, where all the best options in every scenario are known and you have to start counter acting the appropriate response to "the best option". Thats some heavy theory crafting stuff that comes into play once the meta is mostly established, and we haven't reached that point yet.