Tell me what I'm doing wrong in this video (with new video after reading advice)

[balladechina212]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=44LAKw2jwXA

I feel like I'm missing something in my game. I usually go Marth against space animals but I decided to try my Sheik. How do I deal with this Fox's waveshining and how do I play against them in general?

EDIT: After reading some of your advice, I recorded some more videos of my Sheik. Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FUgky_Im18

 

[Bibbed]

In general, Sheik's whole game versus Fox is her edgeguarding him so well. It's apparent your friend likes to go low and sweet spot the ledge to recover, so as soon as you knock him off you should just ledgehog immediately. Eventually he'll adapt, but that's a start.

Those standing needles you're throwing aren't so good either. There's lots of lag afterwards, and the Fox is capitalizing when you throw them. Edit -- Wow, I just took a second look and you just wavedash back, throw a needle which may or may not hit him, and then he just runs right in and nails you. No more standing needles, only throw them when you are in the air.

A big part of your game should be grabbing, D-throwing, and chasing the tech to a D-smash. It's so effective with Sheik versus Fox/Falco/Falcon.

And the waveshining is a bit ridiculous. He's leading into you with D-airs, then waveshining. That doesn't really work. You should either be shielding his D-airs (and holding the shield for the subsequent shine), or wavedashing backwards and D-smashing (he'll land just infront of you).

You aren't DIing his U-throw, which is a huge problem. It just makes it too easy for him to follow with an U-air.

You need to D-tilt way more too when he tries to recover. His toward-B recoveries get eaten up by D-tilt to shorthop F-air.

Also, you need to dash dance in and out sometimes, like when he jumps in the air. Dash away, then dash back in. You're standing in place a lot, and he just aims for the spot you were 2 seconds ago when he left the ground.

Finally, stop randomly jumping in the air. Think about it, Fox punishes people that are above him. He can U-air, B-air, N-air, U-smash, U-tilt, etc. He eats you alive when you jump up there. Keep your *** on the ground. You should be focusing on staying on the ground, and mindgaming your way into a grab or dash attack, or to the point where you can F-tilt him, or F-air him the instant he leaves the ground.

Those are just some observations, it's hard to tell you exactly whats wrong when it isn't in person, but hopefully you get the idea and can use some of that.

 

[$ick]

Your too direct in your approaches. You only do 2 things, run in and dash, or run in and jump up to either bair or fair. Back wavedash works really well against Fox. All those dair to shine he had on you, wavedash to ftilt hehe. And that was a pretty good Fox.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Bibbed covered everything I believe.

 

[MikeMoney]

Couldnt have said it better myself Bibbed

 

[balladechina212]

Thanks a lot, I usually play Marth anyway against spacies.

I do the tech-chase to grab/d-smash a lot actually, just that game I didn't for some reason.

I can definitely DI the upthrow better, I don't know what I was thinking. Especially when Fox waveshines to a grab, it's easy to predict the throw and DI correctly.

I'll post another video once I try out your advice.

 

[Ishoku]

hmm i spot two times where you run off the ledge and do a vanish.
im not sure if you were just trying that as a mind game, or if that was a failed attempt at a double vanish.
but maybe a bit more practice on that would help. you could also just do a reverse-needle canceled edge hog.

also a few more tilts combos would be nice.

just dont get suckered into rushing the fox, he likes to wavedash back and then counter, so possibly you could try running a few steps passed from where he is and then dsmashing or grab, hopefully connecting to his wave back.

everything else was covered.

i agree with Sick, that fox was pretty good and technical.

 

[balladechina212]

Technical =/= good. In a recent tournament, you can see him have a little bit of trouble against a really nontechnical player with mindgames. But he still won.

Here's the thread linking to those tournament vids:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=98706

 

[Shiekthingy]

3 things.
1. missing your opportunities
2. falling into the same traps over and over
3. not using common sense

 

[balladechina212]

I'll have some new vids of my Sheik up this weekend using the strategies you guys have suggested.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Technical =/= good. In a recent tournament, you can see him have a little bit of trouble against a really nontechnical player with mindgames. But he still won.

That is true, but I am pretty good. That wasn't exactly a recent tournament (March 3rd), and it was my first. Chalk the loss to Mike as being a bit nervous. Still, I took 5/6 matches from him, so that doesn't really constitute as "trouble".

There wasn't really much of a reason to bring that up though. Besides, Ishoku said "good and technical" not "good because he's technical". There's a huge difference.

Regardless, I can vouch for balladechina212. He does tech chase -> grab/dsmash a lot more than shown, and he's better at the vanish edgehog now. We'll probably record some more of his sheik matches soon.

 

[Kenpachi]

Hmm, I will agree with the general "keep to the ground" statement issued by Bibbed, but going to the air can have its fair share of mindgames too. Charge your needles in the air and you can do one of things: 1) you can keep charging them and release, this gives you the oppurtunity to land a needle grab (if it hits. the good thing is, it can hit his shield and you can grab him out of that too). 2) you can cancel the charge and go for the fast falled ariel. 3) cancel the needles and do nothing. jump again to get out of the way, or just DI back.

the fox will have to think about these three options and this can definitely draw mistakes. Especially if he assumes the "do nothing" option and you go in for the fair.

when fox has to use the firefox to recover, you have the option to go in for the nair. this will generally trade hits, sending him downward and you upward. its a really nice move. though, in my experience, its much harder to hit if he's sliding up the side of FD. At about the 3:00 mark you had the oppurtunity do to this. you killed him fine, but i think the nair ends up being the safer choice.

in my opinion, its not safe to do the double explosion technique. i've played some quick characters who have been able to take the edge BETWEEN explosions. this also applies to the very first stall of the Shino Stall IF AND ONLY IF you start the stall before you touch the edge. if you hit the edge first, your fine. (so recovering down toward the edge to start a stall: dangerous).

at about 1:35 you managed to DI in a way that forced the second (and more powerful) hit of fox's uair to miss. was this an accident or did you make that happen? if you did, how did you do that? I've seen videos of people DIing that correctly over and over again, and thats definitly useful to pick up.

In general, some of your tactics seem automatic. like throws leading into downsmashes. If you can loosen up that technique a bit, it will be to your advantage. thats something I'm definitely still working on. ideally, there should be no real "automatic combos". everything should be adjustable to fit different situations. aside the double explosion, and the reverse needle spacing mentioned earlier by someone, your technique seems pretty good. just keep an eye out for situations requiring change.

hope that helps

~Kenpachi

 

[balladechina212]

Ok, I have a more recent video up now that utilizes some of the things you guys have said here. It's not against a Fox but it still shows some improvement. I definitely shouldn't have lost, I think I was messing around with the dairs near the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FUgky_Im18

Tell me if I've improved and what I need to work on to get better.

 

[All_Characters]

Hello.

I feel bad about telling you bad things about your sheik, because for the most part, its better than mine in terms of wd, etc....

The only real thing I can tell to is that when captain falcon is on the platforms. Kick his ***. Even in the air, Captain Falcon should only be able to TOUCH you if he's comboing you. Your air is just so much faster than his. You also should be abusing you fair a LOT more. I found that you were abusing some of sheiks less ****** attacks.

For the Falcon (if you're keeping track of this thread), again, i feel bad because your falcon is probably better than mine in terms of wd wtc.... The only thing I can tell you is that against sheik, you cant be in the air, unless you feel that sheik is in a weak position, or if you are comboing. Sheiks airs have almost an instant start up time, so you really have no chance of connecting. However, I REALLY liked your play.

 

[Zankoku]

Your Sheik has pretty good movement. Quite a few pauses when he's at the ledge... try intimidating him with some dancing around, or if he waits too long punish it. DON'T TRY TO KO CAPTAIN FALCON OVER THE TOP. I was really confused seeing you spam so many Uairs on him. Seriously, by the time he died over the top he was at 160%. And it was Yoshi's Story. You'll have a much easier time KOing horizontally and edgeguarding or edgehogging.

 

[Kenpachi]

I agree with the "lack of fairs" comment. at the 27 second mark of the video, you could have finished him with a fair attack. at the 35 second mark you did a wall jump randomly, maybe as mind games, but against a falcon thats a bad idea. a knee from there would surely mean bad things for you. and at the 40 second mark, you do it again and it does get punished.

At about the 2:15 mark you tried to use the neutral air edge guard, and thats good, just work on the timing. I also don't know if it works against falcon. that move is recommended when fighting falco, fox, and marth (because their upB recoveries exchange hits with you).

KEEP MOVING. at 2:33, you stood still while falcon recovered AND knee'd you. don't let him get such easy hits. shield, wavedash, or attack. don't just stand there or you'll surely get punished. most good recoveries have some kind of attack coming with it (if you assume a skilled smasher), so be wary.

you should have shino stalled at the 3:00 mark, falcon got a free smash off on you there.

I'll agree with your own statement, the dairs aren't very good. they can be used sometimes, but it should be used sparingly at best.

Overall, you should not use the standing needles so predictably. you don't really get anywhere if he just shields it.

thats about it, hope it helps.

~Kenpachi

 

[balladechina212]

Questions:
Is it better to dthrow them as soon as possible to flub their DI or mess up their teching? Or is it better to hit them a few times before throwing to rack up damage?

When tech-chasing dthrows, do you guys tend to regrab and throw again more or dsmash the tech more?

 

[Zankoku]

Hitting once or twice is fine. Dthrow is slow enough for them to figure out a DI by the time they see you throwing.

When techchasing Dthrows, it really depends on their %. Dsmash will finish them if they're at a high enough %, but otherwise I'd rather grab or dash attack into a Fair.

 

[Kenpachi]

It also depends on how they tech and who they are. When playing against fox I'll go for the re-grab if they tech away in either direction, but if he techs in place I go for the dsmash (because the regrab here risks getting shined). be careful with using the dsmash alot after grabs, because missing can get you punished alot.

~Kenpachi

 

[knightpraetor]

won't the dsmash just end up getting shielded most of the time? and i forget..someone answered this for me before..but what all can you do about teching in place plus shine. if you try to shield the fox will shine to JC grab and you'll get grabed..though you could try to spot dodge that grab..mostly it seems a sheik can't react and is forced to guess what they are going for..if you know they are going for a shine you can wd back and dash attack no? i assume running back in for the grab wouldn't work..