Tether Ledge Trump

[KayJay]

Might be interesting for you guys because this also works for Toon Link:

Note: Tether Ledge Trump has frame advantage over normal Ledge Trump (You can release the ledge earlier, thus it makes a confirmed Tether Ledge trump into B-Air unescapable).

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Might be interesting for you guys because this also works for Toon Link:

Note: Tether Ledge Trump has frame advantage over normal Ledge Trump (You can release the ledge earlier, thus it makes a confirmed Tether Ledge trump into B-Air unescapable).

That's pretty neat.

You guys already know about the 'Tether Trump' from the AT thread, but this is a really nice practical setup for it. Just do a RAR (SH) right near the edge then almost instantly Tether the edge (you need to be far enough off-stage to get a tether and not Zair). Then it's a simple matter of hitting up to reel it in. And of course, just to remind you, once you've fully snapped to the ledge, you can act immediately, i.e. you have zero frames of ledge-hold time, allowing you to get better trump punishes. Or else you can simply do an immediate ledge get-up and be able to still trump while covering other options.

 

[KirbyFan20]

Looks interesting. I might have to practice this with Toon Link later.

 

[imnotdannyboy]

Can you tether ledge trump with a bomb in hand and do a reverse bomb throw fair? I feel like this is better than bair, since bair hits them so high. Will this work or will they be too high for the fair follow up?

I can test this when I get home, but that'll be a while. What about bomb throw uair?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can you tether ledge trump with a bomb in hand and do a reverse bomb throw fair? I feel like this is better than bair, since bair hits them so high. Will this work or will they be too high for the fair follow up?

I can test this when I get home, but that'll be a while. What about bomb throw uair?

You can tether while holding a bomb by airdodging first, so yes you can tether trump while holding a bomb. And the Tether Trump gives you a lot of frame advantage to work with, so tether trump to let-go-of-the-ledge to DJ Bomb back-throw easily works. As for comboing that into Fair, that definitely works too, though it will stop working at high percents due to the opponent being hit too far up, at which point Bomb to Uair will continue to work. For the lighter characters that Uair can't reach, there's always Aerial Up-B too. People should really start using this imo, so good call there.

I tested it for the Link boards, so I'll test it here too, but just so you know, if you're going to do this quicker setup for the tether trump that starts by SHing backwards from the very edge of the stage, if you hit grab on the first two airborne frames, you'll get a Zair, and not a Tether. A Grab input will tether from the third airborne frame and onward if you SH backwards from the very edge. That's extremely easy, so you have no excuse not to use this. If you're starting with the RAR, just make sure you don't muck that up and take special care to SH at the very edge and get the full amount of airspeed going off-stage.

 

[imnotdannyboy]

Cool! Yeah, I knew about grabbing ledge with bomb, I just wasn't sure if the jump was enough to get the bomb and the fair. Shame it doesn't work at higher percents, but it could be used to set up gimps.

RAR and backwards short hop are also great cause they dodge recovery hitboxes. I don't know all of Toon Link's edgeguarding strategies yet, but I feel like forcing a ledge grab and then tether trumping is one of the best situations Toon Link can set up.

Up B is a great idea, too. Do you need to do the bomb turnaround for it or will it work from behind?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Do you need to do the bomb turnaround for it or will it work from behind?

Nah you can just do a raw aerial Up-B after a tether trump. No need for the Bomb. In fact it works for normal trumps too if you're ballsy enough.

 

[Deleted member]

The more important utility is that its more viable than a regular trump because you can also condition and punish a roll get up from it with the faster ledge getup options. Also you can make more options available if you zdrop with a bomb, they will get trumped into the bomb in doing so. Ive been trying to work on an option select with this so that whether they getup or get trumped we'll still get some sort of significant punish. Ill keep you updated on what i come up with

 

[imnotdannyboy]

The more important utility is that its more viable than a regular trump because you can also condition and punish a roll get up from it with the faster ledge getup options. Also you can make more options available if you zdrop with a bomb, they will get trumped into the bomb in doing so. Ive been trying to work on an option select with this so that whether they getup or get trumped we'll still get some sort of significant punish. Ill keep you updated on what i come up with

Does the zdrop bomb really open up more options than just bthrow bomb after trump? What kind of stuff can you follow up with?

I guess if you chose to hop on stage, you'd have a bit more time to set up your edgeguard.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The more important utility is that its more viable than a regular trump because you can also condition and punish a roll get up from it with the faster ledge getup options. Also you can make more options available if you zdrop with a bomb, they will get trumped into the bomb in doing so. Ive been trying to work on an option select with this so that whether they getup or get trumped we'll still get some sort of significant punish. Ill keep you updated on what i come up with

Going for a tether trump to immediate ledge get-up should be one of the main focuses of this AT imo. I have a whole heap written about it in the AT thread toward the end which I highly recommend for everyone to read in full, but essentially doing the ledge get-up will still trump the opponent if they don't do a buffered ledge option, and the only ledge options they can buffer are roll, attack, or jump, which leaves you, having just done a normal get-up, in a prime position to punish these options.

As for Z-dropping the bomb as part of the tether trump, well that's potentially even better when the opponent is at high percents when you think about it. See, one of the main issues with doing the version of the tether trump that involves the immediate ledge get-up is that it doesn't give you a guaranteed punish for when the opponent actually gets trumped. It puts the opponent in a bad position of having to recover on-stage or else suffer a ledge-grab without invulnerability frames, but for some characters this isn't the end of the world. If you do a z-dropped bomb as part of your tether trump however, as you said, they will just get hit by the bomb immediately after being trumped, and if they are at high percents this should give us enough time to combo out of that. This more applies to Link though when I think about it, because of the greater knockback/hitstun on his bombs, but still.

 

[imnotdannyboy]

Going for a tether trump to immediate ledge get-up should be one of the main focuses of this AT imo. I have a whole heap written about it in the AT thread toward the end which I highly recommend for everyone to read in full, but essentially doing the ledge get-up will still trump the opponent if they don't do a buffered ledge option, and the only ledge options they can buffer are roll, attack, or jump, which leaves you, having just done a normal get-up, in a prime position to punish these options.

As for Z-dropping the bomb as part of the tether trump, well that's potentially even better when the opponent is at high percents when you think about it. See, one of the main issues with doing the version of the tether trump that involves the immediate ledge get-up is that it doesn't give you a guaranteed punish for when the opponent actually gets trumped. It puts the opponent in a bad position of having to recover on-stage or else suffer a ledge-grab without invulnerability frames, but for some characters this isn't the end of the world. If you do a z-dropped bomb as part of your tether trump however, as you said, they will just get hit by the bomb immediately after being trumped, and if they are at high percents this should give us enough time to combo out of that. This more applies to Link though when I think about it, because of the greater knockback/hitstun on his bombs, but still.

My only concern about the z-drop here is that if our hit doesn't combo, or they fall out of range or something, they regain ledge invulnerabiility from the bomb AND they end up really close to the stage. So it seems like you have to be sure the second hit can combo.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

My only concern about the z-drop here is that if our hit doesn't combo, or they fall out of range or something, they regain ledge invulnerabiility from the bomb AND they end up really close to the stage. So it seems like you have to be sure the second hit can combo.

Absolutely. That's why I was adamant about it being more of a high percents only kind of thing. We could save ourselves some frames by z-dropping the bomb slightly further up and further away as we tether, but regardless, the opponent needs to be at a high enough percent so that they are stuck in hitstun throughout our ledge get-up. From the initial testing I did I was satisfied enough to believe it was possible under the right conditions, especially when the opponent got hit towards us allowing us to simply U-tilt after the ledge get-up.

If instead we don't do an immediate ledge get-up after the tether reel-in and stay on the ledge prepared to hit away and DJ or we immediately do a ledge jump, and the opponent gets trumped and is hit by the z-dropped bomb, there is the potential for a guaranteed Dair spike that we can survive (the ledge hop will only be guaranteed from medium percents and up, and only if the opponent is hit close enough towards stage, while the DJ Dair will work at any percent, though it's easier to set it up so you'll survive from medium percents and up). As for whether the opponent will be spiked off-stage, that depends on the angle they are launched by the bomb, which you can control to some extent by dropping it closer to the ledge if necessary to force a more vertical launch.