The facts about the judement hammer

[Needle of Juntah]

First fact about the judgement hammer.

1. its not reliable.
a. first hammer is likley to be judgment.
2. if the first hammer is not judgement it is to be either used again immediatly or saved for later in the match.

3. patterns that i go by for beginners is.. Judgement... *blank*... judgment. if not the third the fourth can be a judgment too, but only if the first of the series is a judgement.. but not likley... and those steps are ALWAYS active.

4. Judgment CAN happen 2 times in a row. If you use over B 2 tiems in a match and theyre both judgement. thats 2 times in a row.

5. judgment can happen two times in a row on the same stock. You dont beleive me money match.

6. to end this judgement controversy. there really is not patterns to learn, this comming from the best GW there ever was. or is. If anyone can show me a pattern to follow by by the time brawl comes out ill give them a BJ LOL but yeah anyways the trick to GW is knowing ever move by heart and its L cancel and it level cancel and its edgeguard and its WD. JUST LIKE EVER OTHER CHAR. if GW isnt ur char it jujst isnt ur char. ME, i play Sheik in tournament and i have the best GW in the country, think not? money match.
so anyways u wanna know the GW counters........
well.......... the one i know for sure is Ice climbers, GW does good against ALOT of chars when u know how to play, BUT the fact u have no sheild should make u wanna quit immidiatley. anyways since i cant make FC and i pretty much quit the game *since 04 if u didnt kjnow* so.... ill give u guys a hint yeah hint

 

[WFL]

The judgement hammer is based on a invisible timer in the game. I proved this by testing it with 3 of my friends and me. We all used judgement hammer at the same time and in more that half of the times we did it 3 or 4 of us had the same number and in the other half we were off by 1. I don't know what kind of timer it is because it couldn't use 0 because there is no 0 in the hammer or it does use 0 and just substitutes 1 or 2 or etc. for it.

Edit: w00t 100th post.

Edit x2: lulz i just actually read the first post

 

[Needle of Juntah]

judgement likes to appear after 5's and 8's

 

[JPOBS]

how can u be the best gw in the country if you quit for 3 years?

 

[Eggz]

First fact about the judgement hammer.

1. its not reliable.
a. first hammer is likley to be judgment.
2. if the first hammer is not judgement it is to be either used again immediatly or saved for later in the match.

3. patterns that i go by for beginners is.. Judgement... *blank*... judgment. if not the third the fourth can be a judgment too, but only if the first of the series is a judgement.. but not likley... and those steps are ALWAYS active.

4. Judgment CAN happen 2 times in a row. If you use over B 2 tiems in a match and theyre both judgement. thats 2 times in a row.

5. judgment can happen two times in a row on the same stock. You dont beleive me money match.

6. to end this judgement controversy. there really is not patterns to learn, this comming from the best GW there ever was. or is. If anyone can show me a pattern to follow by by the time brawl comes out ill give them a BJ LOL but yeah anyways the trick to GW is knowing ever move by heart and its L cancel and it level cancel and its edgeguard and its WD. JUST LIKE EVER OTHER CHAR. if GW isnt ur char it jujst isnt ur char. ME, i play Sheik in tournament and i have the best GW in the country, think not? money match.
so anyways u wanna know the GW counters........
well.......... the one i know for sure is Ice climbers, GW does good against ALOT of chars when u know how to play, BUT the fact u have no sheild should make u wanna quit immidiatley. anyways since i cant make FC and i pretty much quit the game *since 04 if u didnt kjnow* so.... ill give u guys a hint yeah hint

$50 MM at FC?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

liez, I'm the best G&W in the country nubs.

*runs*

 

[tjrook]

Oooh, I would love to see a ditto of 56k and NoJ! Then throw me in the fray and see well I do

 

[Onifrio]

I'm not sure you know this but a computer/video game console does not truly generate a random number it preforms a mathematical forumla using the number of miliseconds that have passed from a certain point in time. So anything you see a computer supposedly do randomly is based on time.

 

[Ripple]

I dought that onifrio. The only true fact about the judgement hammer is that it is always 9 when you just barly miss.

 

[Baamage]

I dought that onifrio. The only true fact about the judgement hammer is that it is always 9 when you just barly miss.

lol its true


From everything I've gathered and learned from the actual game code itself, the 9 hammer cannot appear twice in a row. The numbers are *random* in the fact that there is no special way to make it get a 9 every time. Unless you have superhuman, faster-than-computer reflexes, timing a button press to get a 9 every time (When the computer's "random" formula timer passes by the 9,) is impossible.

I think that the timer does not use standard counting, since it avoids the zero + the last hammer that was played (The timer begins at the start of the match so whatever it started at is considered to be the previous hammer) It is more likely hexadecimal.

So basically, if you did manage to time the timer exactly right, you wouldn't get 9 twice in a row anyways. Or any number in a row, for that matter. It would just go the the following number (So even if you had perfect timing every time, the numbers would come out as 9, 8, 9, 8, 9, ect.)

So yea

 

[Onifrio]

You can doubt it all you want but it is programming fact. Although there is ways to do it, that is one form.

In this case the number of ms passed is called the "seed"

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RandomNumber.html\

Also as far as getting two in a row is concerned they can just have an "if" statement nested in a dowhile loop that makes the program redo the hammer calculations until the next hammer is no longer a '9'

 

[ZorakBane]

Ok dude, best way to test out your theory.. Get action replay.. And time the judgement hammer every 51 frames.. record the pattern.. if there is any at all you are right..

 

[Ripple]

not every 51 frames every 1 second exactly

 

[Onifrio]

You can't time it by frames even if you wanted to. The mathematical calculations to generate a pseudo-random number are most likely done by mili seconds. So while there are around 60 fps there are 1000 miliseconds per second meaning there are about 16 miliseconds per frame. Even if you tried to slow it down by frame, the calculation for judgement hammer can change 16 times.

Normally if there were an equal chance for each number to be generated you would only have a number generated between 1 and 9.

But since some hammer swings are less likely than others a number is probably generated from something like 1 and 100

Then the program would basically check like this...


(these are not the actual numbers used in the calculations this is just an example of how it is done from a programming point of view)

If the randomly generated number is between 1-10 execute a '1' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 11-20 execute a '2' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 21-30 execute a '3' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 31-40 execute a '4' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 41-50 execute a '5' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 51-60 execute a '6' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 61-70 execute a '7' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 71-95 execute a '8' hammer swing.
If the randomly generated number is between 96-100 execute a '9' hammer swing.


Sorry for explaining it in such a long winded manner but if a '9' was only executed when the randomly generated number was between 96 and 100 there is a much smaller chance of ever executing a '9' swing.

 

[Ripple]

then we need to experiment with the timing with every other hammer. its to hard to explain but I think onfirno can explain it somehow

 

[Endless Nightmares]

What the **** it's ****ing random!!!! It's random! The first hammer of the match can't be a 1 or 2, and you can't get the same two in a row. When you die, the hammer resets. That's it! cry: :flame: :nerd::******::freak::devil:

Sorry about that.

 

[Gea]

What the **** it's ****ing random!!!! It's random! The first hammer of the match can't be a 1 or 2, and you can't get the same two in a row. When you die, the hammer resets. That's it! cry: :flame: :nerd::******::freak::devil:

Sorry about that.

Quoted for truth. XD

 

[Onifrio]

56k calm down psycho. It is pseudo-random to be exact and if you read anything i posted you would understand why i say that. If you know the formula they use to generate the random numbers and you can get the same "seed" every time you can get a '9' every other time you use the hammer.

So theoretically if you had perfect timing to the milisecond you could get a '9' on your hammer every other time if you wanted to.

And your next response would be well who cares because nobody can time it perfectly by the milisecond.

My response would be that who cares whether they can do it or not. That is irrelevant. The topic is called facts about the judgment hammer. Not how can i get a '9' whenever you want. Im just laying down the facts.

It is not truly random. It is doing a mathematical calculation with an integer value that is effected in the game some how. Most likely the number of miliseconds since you last used the hammer. So if you can provide the same integer value every time for the calculations you can get the same result whenever you want.

So the fact is if you had perfect timing by the milisecond and they are using the number of miliseconds since you last used the hammer. You can get a '9' whenever you want unless you have just rolled a '9'. In that case it will probably just run the calculations again using a different integer as it's seed.

Now if you have something to say to prove me wrong post some shred of background information.

 

[Ripple]

 

[Endless Nightmares]

56k calm down psycho.

lol I was just fooling around with the faces and crap

*insert theories that have no proof*

Now if you have something to say to prove me wrong post some shred of background information.

How are you gonna post a theory that you think might be true, then try to pass it off as fact?

The mathematical calculations to generate a pseudo-random number are most likely done by mili seconds.

If you could actually show us some proof, instead of drawing conclusions from these "maybes" and "most likelys", then I would actually believe you. Until then, I will continue to believe what has already been shown to be completely true.

It's random. The first hammer of the match can't be a 1 or 2, and you can't get the same two in a row. When you die, the hammer resets.

 

[Onifrio]

Your saying it is random and i'm stating how it is random. Also without the source code it can't be proven. What im stating is how random numbers are generated when programming and how programming techniques can apply to the hammer. It is not random theory it is fact. It is the only way it can be done. There is no other solution. The only (holes) blanks left in my theory are i dont know what the actually percentage chances are for each number.

Real life physics is a theory but is currently held as fact until the mathematical calculations for real world physics are disproven. Real life science has changed millions of times but each time it was changed it was stated as fact.

The only way anyone can can say a fact on the judgement hammer is if they have the code as reference.

56k you are stating what is done and i am stating how it is done. There is no sense in arguing especially since our statements are not contradictory.

And everything i have said thus far is programming fact. Any programming website or book on random numbers will tell you how it is done. I am just applying it to one situation. Also i have posted a link in a previous post.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I'm not doubting that the hammer uses some kind of programming code, but the thing is, nobody knows exactly that that code is, and there's no way to find out (or is there?) so while stating that is uses programming is fact, that's the only thing we can say is fact. Any sequence we come up with isn't really fact because we can't prove it. Which is why I say it's random because it might as well be. A human in a real-time match can't purposely get a 9 every other time.

 

[Onifrio]

ya, i agree it is impossible but it doesnt help to spread some knowledge i like others knowing what i know.

 

[BloodBowler]

Timing to the millisecond would be impossible in a game like this. Because it doesn't measure milliseconds, it measured frames. 60 frames per second. That's about as specific as your timing gets. Even with Action replay and frame by frame mode with the in game timer at the top, it skips numbers when you advance a frame to catch up with the fact the game has progressed 1/60th of a second.

It would make a little more sense and be a little more real that if it it were random, to take in more factors other than time. How about, character location, stage, current frame of animation? This is all of course, wild theory.

Next, I have an Action Replay, I have SSBM (PAL) I'd be happy to test out some wild theories. I won't post any of my own until we can prove it, although with Brawl around the corner I really think there isn't much point to it.

 

[Onifrio]

You really cant use any other factors other than time. You need something constantly changing and the only thing i can think of is time.

 

[BloodBowler]

I didn't say eliminate time. I said use something else WITH time to generate your so called random number.

Anyway, this topic has gone miles off topic, there's Melee Discussion and Pool Room for this kind of thing.

 

[Onifrio]

They cant really change how the game generates random numbers. It is built into the programming language.

 

[BloodBowler]

Well without the source code it'll be impossible to tell and we've wasted more than enough time talking about this anyway.

 

[The |Egg| Sniper]

Though I dont know if he's right, I'll have to go with Onifrio on this one. Studying in the computer science field I learned exactly how "random" isn't exactly random, especially if you code a program to make things like "Judgement" happen.

If we had a way to test it, I'd totally test his theory.

 

[Ripple]

what if the hamer depends on the previous 2 hammers. that throws time out of the picture.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

just to let you guys know ive only seen 2 9's in a row ONCE in my life. and i used to play smash ALOT.

it was pretty F'd up

oh yeah i forgot to tell you all ive gotten a blank hammer before too!

havent you people learned to not listen to me yet? LOL

pretty much, if you get a judegment, you can betcher *** you wont get one next time you use it unless you die in between. so use over B after a judgement to "prime" it

 

[Needle of Juntah]

im officially the worst GW on smashboards, ill never talk in this forum again. bye guys






(lost to some random luigi player at a local tourney)yep i suk

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Your saying it is random and i'm stating how it is random. Also without the source code it can't be proven. What im stating is how random numbers are generated when programming and how programming techniques can apply to the hammer. It is not random theory it is fact. It is the only way it can be done. There is no other solution. The only (holes) blanks left in my theory are i dont know what the actually percentage chances are for each number.

This and what you have said in past posts would seem to suggest that you think the game treats button inputs on different milliseconds of the same frame (since each frame is 16 2/3 ms long) differently. But if that were true then there shouldn't be the 'same character color' glitch, nor the controller port priority rule.

So, I think it is more likely that each frame has one and only one ms value associated with it, which WOULD then give a recurring pattern (since ms/frame is a rational number) for the GW hammer that could be discerned if relatively simple. I don't think it is likely though.

Real life physics is a theory but is currently held as fact until the mathematical calculations for real world physics are disproven. Real life science has changed millions of times but each time it was changed it was stated as fact.

Sort of. "Scientific fact" doesn't really exist. You always have error bars in experiments. Theories are really just models. They may be very accurate and no experiment may be able to distinguish disagreement with the theory, but it is still just a model.

The only way anyone can can say a fact on the judgement hammer is if they have the code as reference.

This is true. And if anyone makes a claim that the model for the GW hammer should be something different than what we have already (basically random, last 2 values can't be gotten again, each stock starts with 1 and 2 in queue), they have to provide scientific evidence why that is so.

And by scientific, I don't mean anecdotal. What you say/think happened at your friend's house once is not acceptable as evidence.

 

[RandomKanti]

imnot the best but im first in state

 

[RandomKanti]

the hammer may be random, i only throw 9's. i only throw like 4 times in a match, all 9's

 

[boss8]

liez, I'm the best G&W in the country nubs.

*runs*

DIRE VULCAN!!!!!! sry 56k

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I was in denial just kidding ^_^

 

[boss8]

you all are gonna be so hooked on getting a 9 that your not gonna pay attention to your opponent,(noobs)

 

[ZorakBane]

This could be a great assignment for a thesis in comp science.. prove that random isnt random.. and state the conditions for each language. lol thatd be like an 80 pg pager easy.

 

[KirbySSB]

a-hem

your first swing won't be 1 or 2
your second swing will not be 1
numbers cannot repeat without
a. TWO more hammer swings (9 3 9 is impossible, 9349 is possible)
b. you kill yourself (resetting the hammer)

the game basically sets it that before the match, your previous two swings were 2, then 1, in that order, so you won't get a 2 on swing #1 or a 1-hammer on swings #1 or 2.

To get a 9 is a 1/7 chance, every single time. UNLESS you got a 9 hammer within the previous two swings. in which case its a 0% chance.

THEREFORE.

If you want to JUST go for 9 hammers, don't swing at all at the beginning of the match for any resetting, it's already a 1/7 chance. BUT after every 9 you get, swing 2 more times at nothing to allow 9 to appear again on your next swing (assuming you get the 1/7 chance).

The disadvantage of this knowledge is the fact the 1 hammer hurts you 12%, so if you don't think you'll get a 9 before you lose your next life, don't do the 2x extra hammer reset (as you would have 2:7 odds of dealing an extra 12% to yourself.)

If your last two numbers were 1, then 9, and you're at high %, I'd say take the chance because your next swing CAN'T be a 1, which makes your second swing a 1:7 chance of hitting the 1 hammer again, which are odds I like better.

as for how the seed in the random number generator is calculated, I have no clue, however it's pretty worthless as it changes because of the "wait two before performing again" system.