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v1.01 of the post, Last edit 2019/09/18 (see bottom of post for the changelog)
I guess this is mostly presented as information and tips for dealing with Yoshi's double jump. Which in turn can help Yoshi players adjust their playstyle, as well.
(A few points are redundant with my other 20000-word Yoshi ****post, but most of it isn't)
Anyway, here goes.
The term super armour is inappropriate. Yoshi's armour is a Knockback Reduction armour, in this game. -120Kb, which is also exactly the CC threshold. Any move that overcomes CC will break his armour (overcomes in terms of knockback, mind you, so meteors and multihit moves that have other properties that can effectively deal with CC at lower KB ranges don't necessarily break armour).
(Reminder : You are put into tumble if whacked by a move that deals > 80 KB units. If you are crouching, crouch armour adds a 2/3 factor to KB, meaning you can tank up to 3/2 x 80KB = 120 KB).
Anything dealing less than 120 KB will be fully absorbed, which isn't the way Super Armour works in other games.
Something that inflicts > 200 KB will inflict, after subtraction, > 80 KB, meaning Yoshi is put into tumble through armour past that threshold.
Yoshi mains tend to call it Double Jump armour, or KB reduction armour.
You can't stack knockback on Yoshi armour. Whether he gets hit by two moves that inflict 70KB each in quick succession, or by moves with enough of a delay that KB stacking usually would apply, his armour tanks both moves.
Oh, and, uh, it doesn't "make Yoshi really really heavy". That's not how it works. It reduces inflicted knockback.
Here's a link to the spreadsheet that contains the 120 and 200KB % thresholds for NTSC Yoshi :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Wj-ucUG4wLO-33HT1D52_tx6o/edit#gid=2036786792
For set KB moves, a value that contains less than 120 never breaks armour, otherwise it breaks it at any %.
There's something fundamental about how Yoshi is played in Melee that a lot of people don't seem to fully grasp.
When Yoshi isn't double jumping, he's not got armour. If you see him careening off the side of the screen at 150%, it means the Yoshi player cancelled his double jump one way or another. Either they messed up armour timing, or they tried to toss another move out, or an airdodge.
Here's aMSa getting propelled offstage at 170. He cancelled armour right before getting hit (an egg lay attempt) :
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=435
Here's aMSa getting whacked by the same move through armour at 150 (so stage four, see below).
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=59
There are complex recovery mixups involved. Sometimes it is also better to take a hit than armour through it.
Sometimes Yoshi players go for risky (or dumb) DJC cancels, or counterhit attempts. If you can hit a Yoshi player in that spot, you might be able to outright kill them at low %, or to juggle them offstage.
Examples (that set wasn't aMSa's best performance) :
https://youtu.be/XuuAa0JsCZs?t=257
https://youtu.be/XuuAa0JsCZs?t=277
https://youtu.be/XuuAa0JsCZs?t=727
Yoshi players sometimes tend to deal with situations where they unexpectedly lost their armour in this fashion fairly poorly. Some flubs are also hard to react to instantly. So you'll often get panic survival DI, which helps combos.
Here's one example :
aMSa messes up something pretty badly at low %. S2J recognises that and whacks him offstage, with aMSa DIing (I think) pretty poorly. DIing predictably, anyway. He loses a stock at 60% for it.
https://youtu.be/5FlJi71JGzg?t=890
Those kinds of stocks are rarer in high-level play, but there are some missed opportunities.
No. And sometimes yes, but if you spout that sentence when you see a Fox drill a Yoshi "through his armour", you probably don't know what you're talking about, sorry.
Here's aMSa armouring through a drill and counterhitting :
https://youtu.be/dfALjaX3Mo4?t=459
(aMSa has been doing this for at least three years, probably longer)
I don't want to rant about this too long, but it still baffles me that people who've been commentating for 5+ years seem to have never analysed a Yoshi set, or don't watch much Melee. Which is a little disappointing, given that aMSa is currently a top 10 player, and very likely to play on stream multiple times at a major.
Anyway.
Multihit moves do not 'break' armour per se. If one of the hits overcomes the 120 KB threshold (like, say, Falcon second-hit nair past 90ish), then it breaks armour. If none of them do, then Yoshi plods on regardless of whether there were 2 or 50 hits.
However, what is important to bear in mind is that Yoshi players have to time a double jump cancel to get their counterhit in. Usually, you can't react to being hit, you have to react to the move coming out, and time your move accordingly*, or cover a specific timing.
Since Yoshi is actionable after hitlag, he can cancel his armour anytime outside of it. Meaning if he mistimes his DJC (too early), he loses armour and gets hit by subsequent hits of the multihit move.
Yoshi players may sometimes multitap A or c-stick up (or whatever) to try and cover different hitlag timints and get their DJC nair. With multihit moves, this does carry the risk of cancelling too early (this is, in a way, mostly favourable RNG, you have 4 frames of hitlag for For drill, and only 1 frame between moves that can mess Yoshi up). Slight timing adjustments can mitigate that somewhat.
One additional benefit of multihit moves is that Yoshi keeps rising during the non-hitlag frames. So that means that if you're moving through Yoshi, and are slightly below him after your move connects, he might rise too far from you to be able to connect a nair.
So depending on momentum and spacing, some moves can be deemed "safe" to a certain extent vs DJ armour. I suppose it's sort of fortunate Yoshi's nair butt hitbox is the size it is, it does help in those situations.
Poking moves like Samus's fair and uair are very hard to armour through. Spacing generally doesn't even make it possible.
Here's an example where the fair outlasts the end of the DJ, and Yoshi gets hit by the last hitbox without armour :
https://youtu.be/7pNZx0MyY7Y?t=1171
Here's an example of aMSa failing to counterhit a Fox drill, and then succeeding on the next one.
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=119
Additionally, some of the electric moves, with their extra hitlag frames, make it -if I'm not mistaken- impossible for Yoshi to counterhit during the move. The electric hitlag causes each hit's hitlag to overlap with the previous one, leaving no in-between actionable frames. The last hit leaves Yoshi in hitlag a couple of extra frames, which gives the attacker additional frames to move away from Yoshi.
One such move is Pikachu fair, for instance. His dsmash is also bloody awkward to armour through and punish, the only times I can remember seeing that happen was when Yoshi was rising and Pikachu dsmashed near the ledge (https://clips.twitch.tv/LightSneakyZebraKappa).
Young Link bombs are also very awkward to deal with.
Tournament-friendly multi-hit moves that hit Yoshi a couple of times and then break armour at low % are actually pretty rare. One example is Peach dsmash, which can be devastating in the right spot, though the situation should occur only rarely.
https://youtu.be/XdXIm6xb19U?t=1306
*For moves with long hitlag (such as Falcon knee), there's more time to react, but the timing needs to be significantly adjusted.
One can break down how a move interacts with Yoshi's armour into up to about four different situations, dependent on %.
Some moves break armour at 0, so they are at stage 2 at 0. Some moves are so weak they never get past stage 1, regardless of %.
I think the names I've given them are a little silly, but I think they might help some people memorise or visualise the situations better. I think the term 'acting out of broken armour' also puts a name on something that hasn't really been discussed much before, and that's good.
This is the stage where Yoshi doesn't give a ****. The unrestrained fiscal fraud stage, with nobody to stop him, memers would say. You can Falcon punch him in the face at 0%, and he'll armour through it as if you'd merely tickled him. The % range can be very different depending on the move. Some moves break armour at 0, others at 70%, others never do.
This is the 'conventional' stage, which most people understand at least a little. Hence the lack of clips.
This is going to be obvious, but you should know your % (and you REALLY should know them if you play Yoshi). If you don't, you'll get counterhit in unexpected situations, or you might get mesesd up by stage two of DJ armour and be like, all confused and stuff.
Some characters don't need to deal with armour as much as others (DK and Ganon come to mind, this can also be partly true of some Marth and Sheik playstyles), or have % thresholds that are very low for very usable moves.
Besides, the % thresholds vary immensely depending on the opposing character, and the Yoshi player has to adjust their behaviour dramatically.
In the current meta, some Yoshi players still don't know their % that well, so whacking them near a threshold % can turn out to be fairly beneficial, as their response might be inappropriate and leave them very vulnerable. Usually though, I'd expect most Yoshi players to know their % for the most common moves (and/or those that overcome armour at low %).
Bear in mind that there are situations where a Yoshi player might abusively try and cancel armour (very late into a DJ while recovering, for instance). If you can read this situation (and it is generally a hard read), you can take a very early stock.
[Missing clip : Sanne double shine kill vs aMSa at 10%]
It's the % range where you've just barely broken armour, but Yoshi can still counterhit you. Generally, it's from 120 KB to, uh, 160 ish ? The thresholds are a lot fuzzier here, and are very spacing- and move-dependent.
Huh ?
Well, yeah. If you inflict 125 KB or so, you break armour. However, Yoshi takes only the reduced knockback (this was changed from Brawl onwards). And 5 KB is nothing. It's about as strong as Luigi's coin spike. So Yoshi takes a couple of frames of hitstun, and then is free to act immediately. He might have lost his jump, but when his armour is broken, he can SDI the move to reposition, and then toss out an aerial immediately afterwards and punish you, or land and punish, if your move is laggy enough.
In fact, this sometimes makes some moves easier to counterhit, or creates unique punish opportunities (given that Yoshi stops rising, and can land on an opponent) which is another reason why knowing the thresholds is so important.
Commentators never really pick up on this enough, meaning people tend to focus on moves breaking armour / not breaking armour, and not think of it in terms of potential counterhit/no potential counterhit, which is a lot more practical.
Most Yoshi players are quite bad at acting out of broken armour at this % threshold, but this % range is still one where you're negative on hit. So know your %.
Here are a few examples of Yoshi armouring through some moves, losing armour and counterhitting :
Vs Pika strong hit of usmash at mid-% :
https://clips.twitch.tv/SincereBeautifulFlamingoYouWHY
Vs the same move, but unable to punish due to being offstage :
https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineEncouragingPoxLeeroyJenkins
A late Fox usmash breaks armour, Yoshi lands and dsmashes :
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairProtectiveSrirachaResidentSleeper
Another thing to bear in mind is that this stage might cover a wide range of % for moves, even if they break armour very early. It depends on the move's Base KnockBack and KnockBack Growth properties. Meaning some moves might 'seem good' because they break armour early, but unless Yoshi is offstage, mileage you get from them might be very limited even when he's way past the armour breaking threshold for that move.
This is the stage where Yoshi's armour is broken, and he isn't sent into tumble (so 120KB < KB < 200KB), but he's sent far enough that he is either too far or doesn't have time enough to counterhit. The tax fraud police is onto him.
Too far might mean too far horizontally. It might mean too far vertically (ie a falling uair that sends him slightly upwards, meaning you land first, or a rising meteor move).
This is a % range where you might be able to get some mileage.
If you're Falco, and Yoshi is recovering high at 100+% or so, he loses armour but can't counterhit you if you space yourself well. You should be able to fall before he does (or at the same time), and try and land another bair (on the way down, perhaps), or an ftilt. His options are heavily limited around that kind of %.
Here's an example with Fox :
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=216
Hax might have been able to force a different mixup (with offstage shine vs Yoshi airdodge). That situation is also heavily favourable. Combos are rare in that kind of situation, but they sometimes exist.
The % thresholds between stage 2 and stage 3 aren't really "documentable". The situations are too fuzzy and depend on too many parameters. You have to get to know those by feel, mostly. You can't really practice them easily, either. UnclePunch training tools don't have any feature to help learn this. At best, you can setup one situation and try and get a feel for it, but it's tedious and limited.
It's one aspect that can make decision-making with Yoshi hard. Those situations are a crucial component of the matchup, and poor awareness of those situations can only be detrimental to a Yoshi main (or to an ignorant opponent, who gave them a freebie).
It can be very subtle. Here's an example.
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=987
Hax barely has time to get his shield up. If aMSa had SDI'd down, he might have been able to get a true punish.
Again, a lot of Yoshi players are currently often bad at knowing that a move will put them in a precarious spot which requires immediate risky defensive options. Even high-level players like nebbii often act poorly out of broken armour like this. Play-by-feel players seem to be worse at it, from what I've seen. Especially those that don't know their %.
Here's an example of a very good airdodge by aMSa :
https://youtu.be/ZN658vALuAI?t=817
When Yoshi takes > 200KB through armour, he effectively takes > 80 KB after subtraction and is put into tumble.
He has to wiggle out to airdodge (which is a controller-dependent issue and currently hasn't been fixed by UCF), and takes enough knockback to travel some distance and be pretty much always unable to counterhit.
The controller-dependent issue is actually a pretty big factor. I've seen quite a few airdodge inputs fail because of it.
He can of course survive moves no one else could :
https://youtu.be/TlA1h9X-9xw?t=1117
https://youtu.be/dfALjaX3Mo4?t=428
And it does enable him to keep threatening a little in neutral without risking of dying or even being sent offstage from some zoning move.
But he can't do much other than try to survive. If he's offstage and gets hit at that %, he's dead (some of the Hax Fox bair clips earlier illustrate this).
Unusual and unique combos are occasionally available at those high %.
Fox uair into uair around 130 :
https://youtu.be/BxA4-4lo-No?t=945
(and here's an example of aMSa nairing out of it at lower % : https://youtu.be/dfALjaX3Mo4?t=359)
Those % thresholds are good to know as well.
This is another important point about Yoshi armour.
Yoshi is at 125%. You run at him and toss out a nair, thinking that he shouldn't be able punish you at that %. Your stomach lurches as you realise Yoshi dashed away, and DJC'd back in, just late enough that your strong nair has become a weak one. You start sweating profusely as you realise that he can tank your soft nair at 125% (but not 130). Green slime comes out of your nose and melds with the salty tears of salt that stream down your face which has turned white as a sheet, as the Yoshi player dsmashes you offstage.
Anyway, yeah.
For some moves, you need to bear in mind both the strong and the weak hits, or the different hitboxes' thresholds.
At the same %, a good Samus player may try and position themselves so that strong nair just barely looks like it connects, but you hit them with a soft nair that gets CC dsmashed. The same idea applies here, pretty much (note that you don't get the benefits of Sakurai angles at low % vs Yoshi armour).
Yoshi can also option select defensive or 'offensive' SDI for a move that'll break armour, but will keep DJing if he instead gets hit by another move (or a weaker hitbox) that doesn't break armour.
Here's an example of aMSa shifting his hurtbox to tank a soft nair at a % where strong nair would have broken armour (and probably left him unable to counterhit, since he wouldn't have been able to drift in with DJC) :
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=1152
Hopefully you understand that this is a complex and crucial component of Yoshi's gameplay, and the Yoshi matchup.
You have to be ready for armour being broken, and to know when it might/will to prepare appropriate countermeasures. Instant airdodges to platform in the middle of a pseudo-combo after a move breaks armour, SDI up/down/in/out, uair/nair out of broken armour, ...
These are all underdeveloped defensive/counteroffensive options that Yoshi players need to think about and use more.
I'm aware this is something that's hard to practice. The firsta stage is knowing your %. I can't emphasise this enough. Also, iKneedata.com/calculator recently added a Yoshi armour KB modifier, for simple visualisation of KB and histun depending on %. Beyond that, awkward long-winded 20XX setups are currently your best tools for solo practice.
Example :
https://youtu.be/RxIAS_DVMgI?t=435
aMSa's defense was already pretty good here. Very few Yoshi players (as far as I know, only him and I, in fact, and I'm irrelevant), would go for option select SDI into an instant airdodge.
With slightly different SDI and a different airdodge angle, I think he could have airdodged to the platform. Yes, it's hard.
Fewer situations allow it (and aMSa doesn't use it much), but it's pretty juicy. Here are a few examples :
https://clips.twitch.tv/EnthusiasticSpinelessDolphinFunRun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNWnqvF4WbI&feature=youtu.be&t=27
https://clips.twitch.tv/FunnyAuspiciousPieBrokeBack
https://youtu.be/7pNZx0MyY7Y?t=771
This is a pretty much unused option that likely has some good value, but is underexplored :
https://clips.twitch.tv/FreezingBashfulWatercressHumbleLife
There'll be other stuff that's redundant with my other sb post.
Some moves break armour at 0, or at very low %.
If you land a meteor hit past thresold % on Yoshi offstage, he's often outright doomed.
Some moves overcome armour at 0%. Examples : Doc first hit of up b (NTSC only), Peach first hit of Parasol (NTSC only), Falco shine.
Example with Doc up b :
https://gfycat.com/fr/grippingcircularkingbird-smashgifs-ssbm
These moves provide quick gimp opportunities if the Yoshi player is recovering low, but they are mixups, and usually very situational (less so for Falco shine). The Yoshi player can choose to cancel armour, and be sent upwards by the move (and fall to his death if they don't toss it out), or keep armour (and lose it if they hit with the gimp move). There are other moves.
Offstage teching is also an interesting point. It's easier to do when in tumble, of course, meaning Yoshi might want to cancel armour as well for that (and risk dying to other moves he could armour through). This can also provide some unusual 50/50-ish scenarios.
Example :
https://clips.twitch.tv/ChillyTrustworthyCobblerWoofer
This is pretty obvious, but since you may be counterhit at pretty unexpected times, especially if you didn't read Yoshi going in or realise he had a frame of actionability during your 'combo', your DI is going to be tied in with your drift and other stick inputs...
If you want to be safer vs unexpected counterhits in some spots, you need to be more cautious with some drift inputs. Or accept that you're taking a risk that might sometimes end up in terrible DI against a counterhit. It's a strength of the character you have to live with.
I've also hinted at this before, but hitlag burns ledge intangibility.
There are potentially unexplored ways of pressuring an opponent at the ledge with armour (perhaps to deal with some ledgehop aerials ?).
Double jump is a frame 1 option. Armour comes out frame 1.
That is to say, anything that isn't a true combo can be armoured.
I'm not to go too much into detail here, there's a lot to be said, and it's complex, but here are a few random points to keep in mind.
Yoshi's movement has some constraints here and there that people who don't play him might not know of.
First off, even though he can turn around, his initial horizontal movement is fixed. It's impossible to drift back meaningfully at the start of his DJ, and the drift during the rising part of DJ is very limited at the start (less so near the end). Similarly, vertical momentum is heavily dependent on which frame of DJ the player decides to DJC. Being aware of this can help one become more aware of how to play around the character in neutral.
His DJ also lasts a while, and DJCs that aren't done immediately always retain some momentum, meaning he can't come down that quickly (this also applies to the other DJC characters).
His DJ also dips at the very start. This also means he can't DJ out of combos the way other characters do. Pseudo-combos that won't work on other characters will work on Yoshi. This is also somewhat true of DJC characters. That being said, Yoshi does have the benefit of armour, and being able to considerably shift his hurtbox by turning around, to make up for that shortcoming.
If he's shielding on a platform, he cannot jump at you, only shield drop double jump. Meaning if you're above him in that situation, you are not going to be hit by an instant uair oos, and upward threats will be slower to come out. Well, Yoshi can shield drop DJ into an AI on the platform and then use his hop, but current Yoshi players don't do this, and it's still slightly slower than for other characters.
Yoshi can aerial interrupts and No-impact land. He can also Double Jump Land (like Peach does). These are nice movement options, but they also mean he cannot toss out moves or input jump on specific frames while going through platforms. Outside of specific setups, they can interfere with normal movement. It's also occasionally awkward to deal with after being hit during double jump. The hitlag (or knockback, when armour is broken) does interfere with spacing and timing somewhat, especially if amour is broken. This makes it more difficult to sense the AI or NIL coming, and to act properly taking this into account. Another unique aspect of the character that adds to his complexity.
Offstage walltech situations almost always happen after the Yoshi player has expended their jump, meaning their options are more limited than other characters'.
The space Yoshi can cover when going offstage are also limited by his lack of an up b move that can help his recovery. He can't dip too low if he wishes to toss an aerial out, nor can he go that far horizontally. Drifting in after an offstage outward DJC offstage can't be done very far from the stage.
Yoshi can armour through a lot of recovery moves. However, his momentum after DJC limits how far offstage he can tank and counterhit such moves. Positioning yourself in the ambiguous spots can cause a Yoshi player to hesitate, or at least fall back to onstage edgeguarding (which is still potent).
Additionally, some recovery moves or aerials are a threat to his DJ at fairly low %. Moves that come to mind are firebird and sheik poof, which both break armour below 40%.
Little details worth bearing in mind.
A lot of Yoshi players play a very very platform-heavy playstyle, zipping around all over the place. Their grounded game is very underdeveloped by comparison (little CC or ASDI down, little dashdancing or boxing with ftilt/dtilt, few grounded move DI mixups during combos, ...).
And autopilot platform movement has some downsides. I'll illustrate a few common patterns which I think are used way too much by some players.
There are risky movement options :
(sorry Peridot, I took those sets because I had them in mind)
This kind of DJC nair is extremely risky. Vulnerable while airborne, easy to outprioritise, and rewards the Yoshi player with very little (and that soft nair can be ASDI'd down for ages) :
https://youtu.be/1eta9sLGgAw?t=8949
The same downsides make shield drop DJC nair from side platform a pretty risky option :
https://youtu.be/LKLzBHGNKs4?t=13355
The DJC fair from top platform is a workable option, but it is very risky, and the threat range it has is actually quite limited, Yoshi cannot move that far forward. An opponent used to that range will be able to play around it.
https://youtu.be/LKLzBHGNKs4?t=13229
Changing one's playstyle to alternate between shield drop FF nairs/fairs (or fakeouts), and wavelands off top platform to side platform (or through side platform) into nair/uair provide more timing mixups, and extend the threat range while making movement less predictable, and conserves DJ.
aMSa's playstyle has significantly shifted since 2015. He himself has stated that any vods of his older than the past couple of years is outdated, and contains risky movement. His usage of armour and parry, and his neutral have all evolved considerably.
[TODO : find relevant clips of aMSa discussing this]
Another issue with autopilot platform movement is that if you get hit while DJing to platform and about to waveland, you risk airdodging and finding yourself without DJ, extremely vulnerable, easy to pick up for the opponent.
A couple of examples :
https://youtu.be/1eta9sLGgAw?t=9018
This one is tied to not realising a move could break armour :
https://youtu.be/LKLzBHGNKs4?t=13565
This kind of unfortunate airdodge almost never happens to aMSa, who generally doesn't opt for this side platform movement in similar situations, and prefers taking damage along the way rather than risking an airdodge. He also likely has adjusted some input timings to limit the likelihood of this happening.
I also occasionally see players go for a DJC nair out of hitstun, when a FF nair would do the same without burning DJ.
This is a funny one, I saw Wheat do that for the first time and wish I'd remembered to clip the situation before the VOD got deleted.
If Pikachu thunders and Yoshi is high up, he can tank one hit of the lightning bolt (and SDI out if necessary to avoid a second hit) and then hit him with the Yoshi bomb. (Assuming Pikachu isn't underneath a platform). It also works if Yoshi is above the lightning bolt at the start.
There's a little more to it than that, but that's the general idea, and it works for a fairly wide % range. Just thought I'd mention it.
This doesn't really belong here, but I have a few clips here and there that I've never posted so I might as well plonk them here for now.
I've discussed Yoshi's recovery and how some options are underutilised in my other posts (and this is a complement rather than redundant info). Maybe I'll move that there later on.
There's more than what I'm posting here, so look out for additional recovery options when watching other Yoshi players.
Egg toss into airdodge :
https://clips.twitch.tv/ExuberantSilkySushiBuddhaBar
Egg lay into airdodge :
https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongTenuousLionGrammarKing
Double egg toss :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83nuYFz5PY&feature=youtu.be&t=357
Side b (the fact that it's a reverse side-b is irrelevant) :
https://clips.twitch.tv/RelatedSmilingFloofPJSugar
Down b usage at the ledge :
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoliteImportantBisonHumbleLife
Tricky airdodges :
https://clips.twitch.tv/SpotlessHelplessGuanacoSpicyBoy
Airdodge, tech walljump airdodge
https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliqueBelovedFloofKAPOW
Another side b, released while falling, which is a little harder to cover
https://clips.twitch.tv/AbstemiousSlickKittenKippa
Airdodge around Falcon ftilt. Ftilts are hard moves to deal with when DJ is gone
https://youtu.be/ZUAh9sFG_gk?t=724
Specific side-b spacing that causes the egg roll to break when touching the ground
https://gfycat.com/fr/quicksaneamethystgemclam
And here's the stomp tech clip earlier in the thread, once more :
https://clips.twitch.tv/ChillyTrustworthyCobblerWoofer
https://twitter.com/Rink_Yoshi/status/1002214955364446213
(I have actually died off of stadium the top from that once)
Long post, with a verbose and convoluted writing style. I hope it was worth the effort, if you read through all of that. Cheers.
Note : A few of those clips were clipped by other people. I don't have all the names, sorry.
Not discussed :
Falco laser
Doubles (usage of armour in doubles)
Link to Ponkapa's vid when it comes out
AI, DJLand, other stuff redundant in the other post
credits (Ponkapa, Dondon151, a few others)
Changelog :
v1.001 : addendum concerning kb stacking
v1.0 : 2019/09/17
(and a couple additional thoughts on Yoshi's Double Jump)
This is a shorter post (well, shorter than my other post, anyway), focusing specifically on Yoshi's armour. People still don't seem to understand it properly, and even high-level Yoshi mains still don't use it properly at some %. For instance, it's something that isn't very present in nebbii's current gameplay, and he isn't the best at acting out of broken armour.
I guess this is mostly presented as information and tips for dealing with Yoshi's double jump. Which in turn can help Yoshi players adjust their playstyle, as well.
(A few points are redundant with my other 20000-word Yoshi ****post, but most of it isn't)
Anyway, here goes.
"Super armour"
The term super armour is inappropriate. Yoshi's armour is a Knockback Reduction armour, in this game. -120Kb, which is also exactly the CC threshold. Any move that overcomes CC will break his armour (overcomes in terms of knockback, mind you, so meteors and multihit moves that have other properties that can effectively deal with CC at lower KB ranges don't necessarily break armour).
(Reminder : You are put into tumble if whacked by a move that deals > 80 KB units. If you are crouching, crouch armour adds a 2/3 factor to KB, meaning you can tank up to 3/2 x 80KB = 120 KB).
Anything dealing less than 120 KB will be fully absorbed, which isn't the way Super Armour works in other games.
Something that inflicts > 200 KB will inflict, after subtraction, > 80 KB, meaning Yoshi is put into tumble through armour past that threshold.
Yoshi mains tend to call it Double Jump armour, or KB reduction armour.
You can't stack knockback on Yoshi armour. Whether he gets hit by two moves that inflict 70KB each in quick succession, or by moves with enough of a delay that KB stacking usually would apply, his armour tanks both moves.
Oh, and, uh, it doesn't "make Yoshi really really heavy". That's not how it works. It reduces inflicted knockback.
120 and 200 KB % threshold spreadsheet
Here's a link to the spreadsheet that contains the 120 and 200KB % thresholds for NTSC Yoshi :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Wj-ucUG4wLO-33HT1D52_tx6o/edit#gid=2036786792
For set KB moves, a value that contains less than 120 never breaks armour, otherwise it breaks it at any %.
"Sometimes Yoshi just dies"
There's something fundamental about how Yoshi is played in Melee that a lot of people don't seem to fully grasp.
When Yoshi isn't double jumping, he's not got armour. If you see him careening off the side of the screen at 150%, it means the Yoshi player cancelled his double jump one way or another. Either they messed up armour timing, or they tried to toss another move out, or an airdodge.
Here's aMSa getting propelled offstage at 170. He cancelled armour right before getting hit (an egg lay attempt) :
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=435
Here's aMSa getting whacked by the same move through armour at 150 (so stage four, see below).
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=59
There are complex recovery mixups involved. Sometimes it is also better to take a hit than armour through it.
Sometimes Yoshi players go for risky (or dumb) DJC cancels, or counterhit attempts. If you can hit a Yoshi player in that spot, you might be able to outright kill them at low %, or to juggle them offstage.
Examples (that set wasn't aMSa's best performance) :
https://youtu.be/XuuAa0JsCZs?t=257
https://youtu.be/XuuAa0JsCZs?t=277
https://youtu.be/XuuAa0JsCZs?t=727
Yoshi players sometimes tend to deal with situations where they unexpectedly lost their armour in this fashion fairly poorly. Some flubs are also hard to react to instantly. So you'll often get panic survival DI, which helps combos.
Here's one example :
aMSa messes up something pretty badly at low %. S2J recognises that and whacks him offstage, with aMSa DIing (I think) pretty poorly. DIing predictably, anyway. He loses a stock at 60% for it.
https://youtu.be/5FlJi71JGzg?t=890
Those kinds of stocks are rarer in high-level play, but there are some missed opportunities.
"Multihit-moves beat armour"
No. And sometimes yes, but if you spout that sentence when you see a Fox drill a Yoshi "through his armour", you probably don't know what you're talking about, sorry.
Here's aMSa armouring through a drill and counterhitting :
https://youtu.be/dfALjaX3Mo4?t=459
(aMSa has been doing this for at least three years, probably longer)
I don't want to rant about this too long, but it still baffles me that people who've been commentating for 5+ years seem to have never analysed a Yoshi set, or don't watch much Melee. Which is a little disappointing, given that aMSa is currently a top 10 player, and very likely to play on stream multiple times at a major.
Anyway.
Multihit moves do not 'break' armour per se. If one of the hits overcomes the 120 KB threshold (like, say, Falcon second-hit nair past 90ish), then it breaks armour. If none of them do, then Yoshi plods on regardless of whether there were 2 or 50 hits.
"Or do they ?"
However, what is important to bear in mind is that Yoshi players have to time a double jump cancel to get their counterhit in. Usually, you can't react to being hit, you have to react to the move coming out, and time your move accordingly*, or cover a specific timing.
Since Yoshi is actionable after hitlag, he can cancel his armour anytime outside of it. Meaning if he mistimes his DJC (too early), he loses armour and gets hit by subsequent hits of the multihit move.
Yoshi players may sometimes multitap A or c-stick up (or whatever) to try and cover different hitlag timints and get their DJC nair. With multihit moves, this does carry the risk of cancelling too early (this is, in a way, mostly favourable RNG, you have 4 frames of hitlag for For drill, and only 1 frame between moves that can mess Yoshi up). Slight timing adjustments can mitigate that somewhat.
One additional benefit of multihit moves is that Yoshi keeps rising during the non-hitlag frames. So that means that if you're moving through Yoshi, and are slightly below him after your move connects, he might rise too far from you to be able to connect a nair.
So depending on momentum and spacing, some moves can be deemed "safe" to a certain extent vs DJ armour. I suppose it's sort of fortunate Yoshi's nair butt hitbox is the size it is, it does help in those situations.
Poking moves like Samus's fair and uair are very hard to armour through. Spacing generally doesn't even make it possible.
Here's an example where the fair outlasts the end of the DJ, and Yoshi gets hit by the last hitbox without armour :
https://youtu.be/7pNZx0MyY7Y?t=1171
Here's an example of aMSa failing to counterhit a Fox drill, and then succeeding on the next one.
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=119
Additionally, some of the electric moves, with their extra hitlag frames, make it -if I'm not mistaken- impossible for Yoshi to counterhit during the move. The electric hitlag causes each hit's hitlag to overlap with the previous one, leaving no in-between actionable frames. The last hit leaves Yoshi in hitlag a couple of extra frames, which gives the attacker additional frames to move away from Yoshi.
One such move is Pikachu fair, for instance. His dsmash is also bloody awkward to armour through and punish, the only times I can remember seeing that happen was when Yoshi was rising and Pikachu dsmashed near the ledge (https://clips.twitch.tv/LightSneakyZebraKappa).
Young Link bombs are also very awkward to deal with.
Tournament-friendly multi-hit moves that hit Yoshi a couple of times and then break armour at low % are actually pretty rare. One example is Peach dsmash, which can be devastating in the right spot, though the situation should occur only rarely.
https://youtu.be/XdXIm6xb19U?t=1306
*For moves with long hitlag (such as Falcon knee), there's more time to react, but the timing needs to be significantly adjusted.
The four stages
One can break down how a move interacts with Yoshi's armour into up to about four different situations, dependent on %.
Some moves break armour at 0, so they are at stage 2 at 0. Some moves are so weak they never get past stage 1, regardless of %.
I think the names I've given them are a little silly, but I think they might help some people memorise or visualise the situations better. I think the term 'acting out of broken armour' also puts a name on something that hasn't really been discussed much before, and that's good.
The first stage, the unstoppable force
This is the stage where Yoshi doesn't give a ****. The unrestrained fiscal fraud stage, with nobody to stop him, memers would say. You can Falcon punch him in the face at 0%, and he'll armour through it as if you'd merely tickled him. The % range can be very different depending on the move. Some moves break armour at 0, others at 70%, others never do.
This is the 'conventional' stage, which most people understand at least a little. Hence the lack of clips.
This is going to be obvious, but you should know your % (and you REALLY should know them if you play Yoshi). If you don't, you'll get counterhit in unexpected situations, or you might get mesesd up by stage two of DJ armour and be like, all confused and stuff.
Some characters don't need to deal with armour as much as others (DK and Ganon come to mind, this can also be partly true of some Marth and Sheik playstyles), or have % thresholds that are very low for very usable moves.
Besides, the % thresholds vary immensely depending on the opposing character, and the Yoshi player has to adjust their behaviour dramatically.
In the current meta, some Yoshi players still don't know their % that well, so whacking them near a threshold % can turn out to be fairly beneficial, as their response might be inappropriate and leave them very vulnerable. Usually though, I'd expect most Yoshi players to know their % for the most common moves (and/or those that overcome armour at low %).
Bear in mind that there are situations where a Yoshi player might abusively try and cancel armour (very late into a DJ while recovering, for instance). If you can read this situation (and it is generally a hard read), you can take a very early stock.
[Missing clip : Sanne double shine kill vs aMSa at 10%]
The second stage, the falling counterpunch
This is a stage that is also super duper important to understand, and that I don't think I've ever heard a commentator (maybe sleepyk ? idk) discuss it.It's the % range where you've just barely broken armour, but Yoshi can still counterhit you. Generally, it's from 120 KB to, uh, 160 ish ? The thresholds are a lot fuzzier here, and are very spacing- and move-dependent.
Huh ?
Well, yeah. If you inflict 125 KB or so, you break armour. However, Yoshi takes only the reduced knockback (this was changed from Brawl onwards). And 5 KB is nothing. It's about as strong as Luigi's coin spike. So Yoshi takes a couple of frames of hitstun, and then is free to act immediately. He might have lost his jump, but when his armour is broken, he can SDI the move to reposition, and then toss out an aerial immediately afterwards and punish you, or land and punish, if your move is laggy enough.
In fact, this sometimes makes some moves easier to counterhit, or creates unique punish opportunities (given that Yoshi stops rising, and can land on an opponent) which is another reason why knowing the thresholds is so important.
Commentators never really pick up on this enough, meaning people tend to focus on moves breaking armour / not breaking armour, and not think of it in terms of potential counterhit/no potential counterhit, which is a lot more practical.
Most Yoshi players are quite bad at acting out of broken armour at this % threshold, but this % range is still one where you're negative on hit. So know your %.
Here are a few examples of Yoshi armouring through some moves, losing armour and counterhitting :
Vs Pika strong hit of usmash at mid-% :
https://clips.twitch.tv/SincereBeautifulFlamingoYouWHY
Vs the same move, but unable to punish due to being offstage :
https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineEncouragingPoxLeeroyJenkins
A late Fox usmash breaks armour, Yoshi lands and dsmashes :
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairProtectiveSrirachaResidentSleeper
Another thing to bear in mind is that this stage might cover a wide range of % for moves, even if they break armour very early. It depends on the move's Base KnockBack and KnockBack Growth properties. Meaning some moves might 'seem good' because they break armour early, but unless Yoshi is offstage, mileage you get from them might be very limited even when he's way past the armour breaking threshold for that move.
The third stage, the sweating dino
This is the stage where Yoshi's armour is broken, and he isn't sent into tumble (so 120KB < KB < 200KB), but he's sent far enough that he is either too far or doesn't have time enough to counterhit. The tax fraud police is onto him.
Too far might mean too far horizontally. It might mean too far vertically (ie a falling uair that sends him slightly upwards, meaning you land first, or a rising meteor move).
This is a % range where you might be able to get some mileage.
If you're Falco, and Yoshi is recovering high at 100+% or so, he loses armour but can't counterhit you if you space yourself well. You should be able to fall before he does (or at the same time), and try and land another bair (on the way down, perhaps), or an ftilt. His options are heavily limited around that kind of %.
Here's an example with Fox :
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=216
Hax might have been able to force a different mixup (with offstage shine vs Yoshi airdodge). That situation is also heavily favourable. Combos are rare in that kind of situation, but they sometimes exist.
The % thresholds between stage 2 and stage 3 aren't really "documentable". The situations are too fuzzy and depend on too many parameters. You have to get to know those by feel, mostly. You can't really practice them easily, either. UnclePunch training tools don't have any feature to help learn this. At best, you can setup one situation and try and get a feel for it, but it's tedious and limited.
It's one aspect that can make decision-making with Yoshi hard. Those situations are a crucial component of the matchup, and poor awareness of those situations can only be detrimental to a Yoshi main (or to an ignorant opponent, who gave them a freebie).
It can be very subtle. Here's an example.
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=987
Hax barely has time to get his shield up. If aMSa had SDI'd down, he might have been able to get a true punish.
Again, a lot of Yoshi players are currently often bad at knowing that a move will put them in a precarious spot which requires immediate risky defensive options. Even high-level players like nebbii often act poorly out of broken armour like this. Play-by-feel players seem to be worse at it, from what I've seen. Especially those that don't know their %.
Here's an example of a very good airdodge by aMSa :
https://youtu.be/ZN658vALuAI?t=817
The fourth stage, helplessness
When Yoshi takes > 200KB through armour, he effectively takes > 80 KB after subtraction and is put into tumble.
He has to wiggle out to airdodge (which is a controller-dependent issue and currently hasn't been fixed by UCF), and takes enough knockback to travel some distance and be pretty much always unable to counterhit.
The controller-dependent issue is actually a pretty big factor. I've seen quite a few airdodge inputs fail because of it.
He can of course survive moves no one else could :
https://youtu.be/TlA1h9X-9xw?t=1117
https://youtu.be/dfALjaX3Mo4?t=428
And it does enable him to keep threatening a little in neutral without risking of dying or even being sent offstage from some zoning move.
But he can't do much other than try to survive. If he's offstage and gets hit at that %, he's dead (some of the Hax Fox bair clips earlier illustrate this).
Unusual and unique combos are occasionally available at those high %.
Fox uair into uair around 130 :
https://youtu.be/BxA4-4lo-No?t=945
(and here's an example of aMSa nairing out of it at lower % : https://youtu.be/dfALjaX3Mo4?t=359)
Those % thresholds are good to know as well.
Strong hit vs weak hit
This is another important point about Yoshi armour.
Yoshi is at 125%. You run at him and toss out a nair, thinking that he shouldn't be able punish you at that %. Your stomach lurches as you realise Yoshi dashed away, and DJC'd back in, just late enough that your strong nair has become a weak one. You start sweating profusely as you realise that he can tank your soft nair at 125% (but not 130). Green slime comes out of your nose and melds with the salty tears of salt that stream down your face which has turned white as a sheet, as the Yoshi player dsmashes you offstage.
Anyway, yeah.
For some moves, you need to bear in mind both the strong and the weak hits, or the different hitboxes' thresholds.
At the same %, a good Samus player may try and position themselves so that strong nair just barely looks like it connects, but you hit them with a soft nair that gets CC dsmashed. The same idea applies here, pretty much (note that you don't get the benefits of Sakurai angles at low % vs Yoshi armour).
Yoshi can also option select defensive or 'offensive' SDI for a move that'll break armour, but will keep DJing if he instead gets hit by another move (or a weaker hitbox) that doesn't break armour.
Here's an example of aMSa shifting his hurtbox to tank a soft nair at a % where strong nair would have broken armour (and probably left him unable to counterhit, since he wouldn't have been able to drift in with DJC) :
https://youtu.be/xGSgEKDZ1Ys?t=1152
Acting out of broken armour
Hopefully you understand that this is a complex and crucial component of Yoshi's gameplay, and the Yoshi matchup.
You have to be ready for armour being broken, and to know when it might/will to prepare appropriate countermeasures. Instant airdodges to platform in the middle of a pseudo-combo after a move breaks armour, SDI up/down/in/out, uair/nair out of broken armour, ...
These are all underdeveloped defensive/counteroffensive options that Yoshi players need to think about and use more.
I'm aware this is something that's hard to practice. The firsta stage is knowing your %. I can't emphasise this enough. Also, iKneedata.com/calculator recently added a Yoshi armour KB modifier, for simple visualisation of KB and histun depending on %. Beyond that, awkward long-winded 20XX setups are currently your best tools for solo practice.
Example :
https://youtu.be/RxIAS_DVMgI?t=435
aMSa's defense was already pretty good here. Very few Yoshi players (as far as I know, only him and I, in fact, and I'm irrelevant), would go for option select SDI into an instant airdodge.
With slightly different SDI and a different airdodge angle, I think he could have airdodged to the platform. Yes, it's hard.
UCF 2.0, please
Wiggling out of tumble is a big big deal for Yoshi players. They airdodge a lot more out of tumble than any other character in the game. The smash input requirement isn't as constraining as it is for dashbacks (outside of very clutch situations, the direction can be held, and the situation is less frequent anyhow), but it still is a controller-dependent issue that hampers the character (and a few others, to a lesser extent).
Less common counterhit options - Fair
Fewer situations allow it (and aMSa doesn't use it much), but it's pretty juicy. Here are a few examples :
https://clips.twitch.tv/EnthusiasticSpinelessDolphinFunRun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNWnqvF4WbI&feature=youtu.be&t=27
https://clips.twitch.tv/FunnyAuspiciousPieBrokeBack
https://youtu.be/7pNZx0MyY7Y?t=771
Armour into DJ AC FF Dair
This is a pretty much unused option that likely has some good value, but is underexplored :
https://clips.twitch.tv/FreezingBashfulWatercressHumbleLife
Other related notes, and tidbits about Yoshi's Double Jump
There'll be other stuff that's redundant with my other sb post.
Gimps on Yoshi, and offstage teching
Some moves break armour at 0, or at very low %.
If you land a meteor hit past thresold % on Yoshi offstage, he's often outright doomed.
Some moves overcome armour at 0%. Examples : Doc first hit of up b (NTSC only), Peach first hit of Parasol (NTSC only), Falco shine.
Example with Doc up b :
https://gfycat.com/fr/grippingcircularkingbird-smashgifs-ssbm
These moves provide quick gimp opportunities if the Yoshi player is recovering low, but they are mixups, and usually very situational (less so for Falco shine). The Yoshi player can choose to cancel armour, and be sent upwards by the move (and fall to his death if they don't toss it out), or keep armour (and lose it if they hit with the gimp move). There are other moves.
Offstage teching is also an interesting point. It's easier to do when in tumble, of course, meaning Yoshi might want to cancel armour as well for that (and risk dying to other moves he could armour through). This can also provide some unusual 50/50-ish scenarios.
Example :
https://clips.twitch.tv/ChillyTrustworthyCobblerWoofer
Armour vs DI
This is pretty obvious, but since you may be counterhit at pretty unexpected times, especially if you didn't read Yoshi going in or realise he had a frame of actionability during your 'combo', your DI is going to be tied in with your drift and other stick inputs...
If you want to be safer vs unexpected counterhits in some spots, you need to be more cautious with some drift inputs. Or accept that you're taking a risk that might sometimes end up in terrible DI against a counterhit. It's a strength of the character you have to live with.
Armour vs intangibility
I've also hinted at this before, but hitlag burns ledge intangibility.
There are potentially unexplored ways of pressuring an opponent at the ledge with armour (perhaps to deal with some ledgehop aerials ?).
Comboing while respecting armour
Double jump is a frame 1 option. Armour comes out frame 1.
That is to say, anything that isn't a true combo can be armoured.
I'm not to go too much into detail here, there's a lot to be said, and it's complex, but here are a few random points to keep in mind.
- One of the DIs a Yoshi player can try and go for is DI such that your next hit *almost* combos, but actually leaves him a couple of frames for him to tank the hit. Similarly, on the ground, one acceptable position for the Yoshi player to be in is at a range where any SHFFL approach can be armoured through in time. Or to reposition such that a soft hit connects instead of a strong one. That sort of thing.
- DJCs out of hitstun that are quite high up leave Yoshi vulnerable. Mileage may vary out of those situations (and Yoshi isn't as helpless as other characters in most matchups when he needs to come down without DJ, with down b, side b, and a significant difference in speed between fastfall and non-fastfall).
- Offstage DJC is very limited.
- Yoshi can't DJC without tossing a move out.
- You can often outspace his instant nair out of hitstun, much more easily than, say, Luigi's. And his DJC nair, if you have a sword or favourable hitboxes (Marth sword, Falcon bair, ...).
- Knowing ASDI % can help you a lot with DJC.
- Other spots where armour can also play a part worth bearing in mind : out of throw hitstun, from shield drop, from ledge, when DSDI counterhits are available, get-up attacks.
- If no jump, juggle offstage. I've posted a clip of this, here's another one : https://youtu.be/5FlJi71JGzg?t=539.
How Yoshi's unique mechanics can limit his movement options compared to other characters
Yoshi's movement has some constraints here and there that people who don't play him might not know of.
First off, even though he can turn around, his initial horizontal movement is fixed. It's impossible to drift back meaningfully at the start of his DJ, and the drift during the rising part of DJ is very limited at the start (less so near the end). Similarly, vertical momentum is heavily dependent on which frame of DJ the player decides to DJC. Being aware of this can help one become more aware of how to play around the character in neutral.
His DJ also lasts a while, and DJCs that aren't done immediately always retain some momentum, meaning he can't come down that quickly (this also applies to the other DJC characters).
His DJ also dips at the very start. This also means he can't DJ out of combos the way other characters do. Pseudo-combos that won't work on other characters will work on Yoshi. This is also somewhat true of DJC characters. That being said, Yoshi does have the benefit of armour, and being able to considerably shift his hurtbox by turning around, to make up for that shortcoming.
If he's shielding on a platform, he cannot jump at you, only shield drop double jump. Meaning if you're above him in that situation, you are not going to be hit by an instant uair oos, and upward threats will be slower to come out. Well, Yoshi can shield drop DJ into an AI on the platform and then use his hop, but current Yoshi players don't do this, and it's still slightly slower than for other characters.
Yoshi can aerial interrupts and No-impact land. He can also Double Jump Land (like Peach does). These are nice movement options, but they also mean he cannot toss out moves or input jump on specific frames while going through platforms. Outside of specific setups, they can interfere with normal movement. It's also occasionally awkward to deal with after being hit during double jump. The hitlag (or knockback, when armour is broken) does interfere with spacing and timing somewhat, especially if amour is broken. This makes it more difficult to sense the AI or NIL coming, and to act properly taking this into account. Another unique aspect of the character that adds to his complexity.
Offstage walltech situations almost always happen after the Yoshi player has expended their jump, meaning their options are more limited than other characters'.
The space Yoshi can cover when going offstage are also limited by his lack of an up b move that can help his recovery. He can't dip too low if he wishes to toss an aerial out, nor can he go that far horizontally. Drifting in after an offstage outward DJC offstage can't be done very far from the stage.
Armour vs recovery options
Yoshi can armour through a lot of recovery moves. However, his momentum after DJC limits how far offstage he can tank and counterhit such moves. Positioning yourself in the ambiguous spots can cause a Yoshi player to hesitate, or at least fall back to onstage edgeguarding (which is still potent).
Additionally, some recovery moves or aerials are a threat to his DJ at fairly low %. Moves that come to mind are firebird and sheik poof, which both break armour below 40%.
Little details worth bearing in mind.
Risky movement, airdodging
A lot of Yoshi players play a very very platform-heavy playstyle, zipping around all over the place. Their grounded game is very underdeveloped by comparison (little CC or ASDI down, little dashdancing or boxing with ftilt/dtilt, few grounded move DI mixups during combos, ...).
And autopilot platform movement has some downsides. I'll illustrate a few common patterns which I think are used way too much by some players.
There are risky movement options :
(sorry Peridot, I took those sets because I had them in mind)
This kind of DJC nair is extremely risky. Vulnerable while airborne, easy to outprioritise, and rewards the Yoshi player with very little (and that soft nair can be ASDI'd down for ages) :
https://youtu.be/1eta9sLGgAw?t=8949
The same downsides make shield drop DJC nair from side platform a pretty risky option :
https://youtu.be/LKLzBHGNKs4?t=13355
The DJC fair from top platform is a workable option, but it is very risky, and the threat range it has is actually quite limited, Yoshi cannot move that far forward. An opponent used to that range will be able to play around it.
https://youtu.be/LKLzBHGNKs4?t=13229
Changing one's playstyle to alternate between shield drop FF nairs/fairs (or fakeouts), and wavelands off top platform to side platform (or through side platform) into nair/uair provide more timing mixups, and extend the threat range while making movement less predictable, and conserves DJ.
aMSa's playstyle has significantly shifted since 2015. He himself has stated that any vods of his older than the past couple of years is outdated, and contains risky movement. His usage of armour and parry, and his neutral have all evolved considerably.
[TODO : find relevant clips of aMSa discussing this]
Another issue with autopilot platform movement is that if you get hit while DJing to platform and about to waveland, you risk airdodging and finding yourself without DJ, extremely vulnerable, easy to pick up for the opponent.
A couple of examples :
https://youtu.be/1eta9sLGgAw?t=9018
This one is tied to not realising a move could break armour :
https://youtu.be/LKLzBHGNKs4?t=13565
This kind of unfortunate airdodge almost never happens to aMSa, who generally doesn't opt for this side platform movement in similar situations, and prefers taking damage along the way rather than risking an airdodge. He also likely has adjusted some input timings to limit the likelihood of this happening.
I also occasionally see players go for a DJC nair out of hitstun, when a FF nair would do the same without burning DJ.
Punishing Pichu/Pikachu thunder
This is a funny one, I saw Wheat do that for the first time and wish I'd remembered to clip the situation before the VOD got deleted.
If Pikachu thunders and Yoshi is high up, he can tank one hit of the lightning bolt (and SDI out if necessary to avoid a second hit) and then hit him with the Yoshi bomb. (Assuming Pikachu isn't underneath a platform). It also works if Yoshi is above the lightning bolt at the start.
There's a little more to it than that, but that's the general idea, and it works for a fairly wide % range. Just thought I'd mention it.
Bonus : Less well-known recovery mixups
This doesn't really belong here, but I have a few clips here and there that I've never posted so I might as well plonk them here for now.
I've discussed Yoshi's recovery and how some options are underutilised in my other posts (and this is a complement rather than redundant info). Maybe I'll move that there later on.
There's more than what I'm posting here, so look out for additional recovery options when watching other Yoshi players.
Egg toss into airdodge :
https://clips.twitch.tv/ExuberantSilkySushiBuddhaBar
Egg lay into airdodge :
https://clips.twitch.tv/HeadstrongTenuousLionGrammarKing
Double egg toss :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83nuYFz5PY&feature=youtu.be&t=357
Side b (the fact that it's a reverse side-b is irrelevant) :
https://clips.twitch.tv/RelatedSmilingFloofPJSugar
Down b usage at the ledge :
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoliteImportantBisonHumbleLife
Tricky airdodges :
https://clips.twitch.tv/SpotlessHelplessGuanacoSpicyBoy
Airdodge, tech walljump airdodge
https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliqueBelovedFloofKAPOW
Another side b, released while falling, which is a little harder to cover
https://clips.twitch.tv/AbstemiousSlickKittenKippa
Airdodge around Falcon ftilt. Ftilts are hard moves to deal with when DJ is gone
https://youtu.be/ZUAh9sFG_gk?t=724
Specific side-b spacing that causes the egg roll to break when touching the ground
https://gfycat.com/fr/quicksaneamethystgemclam
And here's the stomp tech clip earlier in the thread, once more :
https://clips.twitch.tv/ChillyTrustworthyCobblerWoofer
DJC turnip throw
Again, temporary placeholder.
https://twitter.com/Rink_Yoshi/status/1002214955364446213
One last absolutely essential note
https://clips.twitch.tv/DeafConsideratePancakeBuddhaBar
(I have actually died off of stadium the top from that once)
Thanks for reading
Long post, with a verbose and convoluted writing style. I hope it was worth the effort, if you read through all of that. Cheers.
Note : A few of those clips were clipped by other people. I don't have all the names, sorry.
Not discussed :
Falco laser
Doubles (usage of armour in doubles)
Link to Ponkapa's vid when it comes out
AI, DJLand, other stuff redundant in the other post
credits (Ponkapa, Dondon151, a few others)
Changelog :
v1.001 : addendum concerning kb stacking
v1.0 : 2019/09/17
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