The ideal patch: Dr. Mario

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Dr. Mario is often considered a worse version of Mario, and as a result many people assume he is bad, but don't realise that being worse than one of the best fighters in the game is fairly common. However, he definitely needs some buffs, so here you go.

weight: 98 -> 105 *
gravity: 0.08715 -> 0.087
Dash attack (late) Base knockback: 90 -> 30
Dash attack FAF: 38 -> 33
Up tilt hitbox size: 3.5/4.2/5.0 -> 3.7/4.4/5.2
Forward tilt (all angles) hitbox size: 3.8/3.0/2.0 -> 4.0/3.2/2.2
down tilt hitbox size: 4.2/3.5 -> 4.4/3.7
down tilt FAF: 28 -> 26
Up smash KBG: 117 -> 120
Nair hitbox size: (early) 4.0 (strong) 3.0 -> (early) 4.2 (strong) 3.2
Nair (late) active frames: 8-27 -> 8-29
Fair hitbox size: 3.0/4.0/4.6/4.0/4.6 -> 3.2/4.2/4.8/4.2/4.8
Bair hitbox size: (clean) 4.2/5.4 (late) 4.5/5.3 -> (clean) 4.4/5.6 (late) 4.7/5.5
Bair FAF: 34 -> 27
Uair hitbox size: 4.4/5.5 -> 4.6/5.7
Dair (hits 1-4) hitbox size: 4.5/3.2 -> 4.7/3.4
Dair (last hit) hitbox size: 5.5/3.7 -> 5.7/3.9
Megavitamins projectile (late) active frames: 45-69 -> 45-80
Megavitamins Dr. Mario FAF: 53 -> 47
Super Jump Punch KBG: 100 -> 80
Super Jump Punch (clean) angle: 30 -> 270

*Dr.Mario is clearly a heavyweight version of Mario, yet he has the same weight stat, despite being slower and having a worse recovery.

 

[Conn1496]

There are actually a few points here that I consider pretty good, but first I'll go over what I'd criticize about these ideas. Similar to how I did with the BJr thread before.

More blanket buffs. Don't buff something unless it has an explicit or obvious use. Try to frame your buff ideas so that they don't seem like things you could apply to every other character, too. -and that isn't every buff on this list - again, there are a few points here I consider good, but things like hitbox sizes and KBG seem really easy to throw at a character to make them stronger. Not necessarily bad ideas, and I'll get to that point, but by "improving the numbers" (Something I already notice you doing a lot.) you haven't made things better, you've made them strictly stronger and I don't think that's the best way to go about buffing a character.

Things like hitbox size aren't that important to Doc's gameplan. In fact, I'd consider his smaller attack hitboxes a weakness, and that's fine. -and while I could argue the same about his knockback power, I'd almost argue the opposite, and that's why those turned out to be pretty agreeable buffs. However, I do think you maybe targeted the wrong moves for it. Super Jump Punch is already a fast, decent KO move that can be used to mash, for example, so making it stronger might just force an over-reliance on that one move.

My criticism of the same buff to U-Smash actually doesn't lie in the fact the move was made stronger, but rather how it was made stronger. There are plenty of other ways to improve U-Smash, and KBG never feels like the move's shortcomings to me - it actually launches quite the distance. -and while I understand the decision to buff U-Smash that way, there are overall more obvious ways to buff the move that aren't just improving numbers.

With all that out of the way. I do agree with improving Doc's KO power in general, including U-Smash (Though just not through a raw KBG increase. I would honestly just give it a slightly more vertical angle - about 110-115 - and call it a day.), though I would still have targeted other moves or focused on better set-ups, rather than raw power.

-and related to set-ups, I also really like the proposed changes for Doc's Dash - all of them, actually - since making a decent on stage edge-guard tool a better pay-off seems like a really great way to buff an otherwise pretty underwhelming aspect of Doc's moveset, especially when the move will actually still require some precision (As only the late hitbox will be a set-up.), and if it means the move links into F-Air or Up-B or something, then Doc would end up with a pretty damn nice KO option for opponents to be genuinely afraid of, and that would be pretty cool.

Then finally, the improvement to Doc's weight does seem like a decent way to improve his survivability a little. It does unfortunately still feel a little like a blanket buff, something Doc could potentially do without, but at least it's something that feels like it would genuinely benefit Doc's style specifically - and while I wouldn't put his weight up to 105 (I feel that just bumping him up to around 100 would be pretty good for him without totally removing his more obvious recovery weakness.), it is a nice step in the right direction.

Ultimately though, do I feel like all these changes would improve Doc much?.. No. lol I feel like Doc's weakness comes from being a slightly below average all-rounder, and if you're not similar to, say, Pit or Mario (Two more all-round characters.) with at least one slightly stronger focus (Pit's neutral game, Mario's punishes.), you're going to suffer. -and while I do think Doc should feel slightly more weighty than his other all-round counterparts, with heavier hitting moves, etc. he kind of already has that going for him. I think you'd have to do something really creative with Doc to make him more viable without it feeling lame, and none of the changes you proposed (Except maybe the dash one, to be fair.) feel like that unfortunately...

 

[FamilyTeam]

Conn1496 Hm... you know, I played Mario for a long time, and I messed with Doc here and there... and I think this might be the better ones of this little series OP is making, like you said. If you remove the padded buffs, atleast these make more sense.
I feel like improving Doc's weight (and maybe lowering his fall speed a bit as well so he isn't combed so hard), giving his Up Smash an angle that isn't destroyed by DI and only useful near ledges, and finally maybe buffing his mobility just a tiny bit, enough to make his recovery better and his ground game far more threatening, but obviously not enough for it to be Mario level, would probably help Doc miles already. I don't think Doc needs much to be viable. He is a clone of one of the best characters in the game, after all.

 

[Conn1496]

Conn1496 Hm... you know, I played Mario for a long time, and I messed with Doc here and there... and I think this might be the better ones of this little series OP is making, like you said. If you remove the padded buffs, atleast these make more sense.
I feel like improving Doc's weight (and maybe lowering his fall speed a bit as well so he isn't combed so hard), giving his Up Smash an angle that isn't destroyed by DI and only useful near ledges, and finally maybe buffing his mobility just a tiny bit, enough to make his recovery better and his ground game far more threatening, but obviously not enough for it to be Mario level, would probably help Doc miles already. I don't think Doc needs much to be viable. He is a clone of one of the best characters in the game, after all.

I'd honestly avoid improving his mobility, even though I'm well aware it's one of Doc's biggest weaknesses, and that's why I was reluctant to bring it up in the first place. Another "Mewtwo" situation would potentially be pretty negative for the game after all, and while I'm not implying that Doc would end up with Sheik run speed or anything, buffing Doc's running or air speed might just be the thing that tips, say, Doc's already decent combo game over the edge to being frustrating. -and while I doubt it would make him OP, a harder hitting Mario, even with slightly less options might actually end up as "too much", and a lot of people already don't like having one Mario in top tier. lol

Still, it's something that might be worth looking into as a buff since it would undoubtedly make Doc more of a threat. Heck, it might be the only buff Doc needs to be better, in hindsight, though I would still rather focus on the "heavier Mario" aspect of Doc's playstyle than making him faster, which is why I was so fond of the Dash improvements. A new set-up that would not only feel different from Mario's but isn't a "catch all" would be a nice addition without just throwing away his weaknesses entirely.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I feel like i need to add some context to this. The reason i boosted the range on his tilts and aerials was bacause, as i said, i felt like Dr. Mario was meant to be a pseudo-heavyweight version of Mario (due to his lower speed and weaker recovery, but higher damage output). In general, heavyweights tend to have a lot more range than normal fighters to make up for their sluggish nature, but like i said, Dr. Mario is only a pseudo-heavyweight, so i only slightly increased his range. As for the up smash, changing its angle is risky, as it weakens the move's edgeguarding/gimping capabilities, but i still wanted it to kill earlier than it does.

Conn1496
I feel like improving Doc's weight (and maybe lowering his fall speed a bit as well so he isn't combed so hard)

Decreasing his fall speed is somewhat of a double edge sword, as this would weaken his vertical endurance.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

A. Why do we have yet another thread for this?
B. Why are you suggesting hitbox increases when that's not even his biggest weakness (or even a weakness given his archetype)?
C. Doc does not need fall speed adjustments, at all. No idea why someone would suggest this.
D. Just buff his mobility (i.e. ground speed and full jump/double jump height), reduce lag on pills, buff Up-B distance. That's it. Mobility does wonders for a character, moreso than arbitrary hitbox changes. Doc has good things about him (frame data is wonderful, OOS options are good, grab combos still lead into damage or death depending on the character, edgeguarding with Down-B and Up-B is awesome, etc.), but his poor mobility prevents him from fully taking advantage of his strengths.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

A. Why do we have yet another thread for this?
B. Why are you suggesting hitbox increases when that's not even his biggest weakness (or even a weakness given his archetype)?
C. Doc does not need fall speed adjustments, at all. No idea why someone would suggest this.
D. Just buff his mobility (i.e. ground speed and full jump/double jump height), reduce lag on pills, buff Up-B distance. That's it. Mobility does wonders for a character, moreso than arbitrary hitbox changes. Doc has good things about him (frame data is wonderful, OOS options are good, grab combos still lead into damage or death depending on the character, edgeguarding with Down-B and Up-B is awesome, etc.), but his poor mobility prevents him from fully taking advantage of his strengths.

A. this thread is part of my own project
B. I explained that already (and yes it IS a weakness)
C. It wasn't my suggestion, but he could potentially benefit from it, both by being less susceptible to combos and having a slightly better recovery.
D. No, read Conn1496's comment.


Do some research before blindly criticising threads.

 

[Conn1496]

Decreasing his fall speed is somewhat of a double edge sword, as this would weaken his vertical endurance.

His weight would likely make up for it is the point. If you just make him heavier, then he'll be easier to combo, lowering his fall speed to counteract him falling naturally faster due to his weight wouldn't really change that.

I feel like i need to add some context to this. The reason i boosted the range on his tilts and aerials was bacause, as i said, i felt like Dr. Mario was meant to be a pseudo-heavyweight version of Mario (due to his lower speed and weaker recovery, but higher damage output). In general, heavyweights tend to have a lot more range than normal fighters to make up for their sluggish nature, but like i said, Dr. Mario is only a pseudo-heavyweight, so i only slightly increased his range. As for the up smash, changing its angle is risky, as it weakens the move's edgeguarding/gimping capabilities, but i still wanted it to kill earlier than it does.

Not all heavyweights are known for their range. In fact, I'm pretty sure Ryu is known for the opposite being his main weakness, all things considered. Wario also kind of fits the "short ranged heavy", too.

I'd also consider that separating Doc from the "cliches" of a heavyweight would also be a nice way to keep him unique while still improving him, so improving his range still seems like a pointless blanket buff regardless of how you look at it.

As for U-Smash, the move has never been used for edge-guarding or gimping... lol I get what you mean if you're talking about the move throwing them off the stage for a set-up, but Doc isn't known for gimping or edge-guarding in the first place either, so keeping the angle seems counteractive to what the character is trying to achieve, especially when a more vertical angle means that it's easier to pressure from in case of it not KOing, which is a pretty big deal.

A. Why do we have yet another thread for this?
B. Why are you suggesting hitbox increases when that's not even his biggest weakness (or even a weakness given his archetype)?
C. Doc does not need fall speed adjustments, at all. No idea why someone would suggest this.
D. Just buff his mobility (i.e. ground speed and full jump/double jump height), reduce lag on pills, buff Up-B distance. That's it. Mobility does wonders for a character, moreso than arbitrary hitbox changes. Doc has good things about him (frame data is wonderful, OOS options are good, grab combos still lead into damage or death depending on the character, edgeguarding with Down-B and Up-B is awesome, etc.), but his poor mobility prevents him from fully taking advantage of his strengths.

I'm gonna go ahead and give my two-cents on this too while I'm here:
A. If you mean "Doc buff threads" - this guy is making one for every character. That's literally the only reason. It's nothing to do with Doc. lol
B. Yeah, basically. No argument here.
C. I think the idea was that it would counteract his theoretically improved weight making him combo food. But in hindsight, I'm not sure weight and fall-speed directly affect eachother at all, so y'know... *shrug*
D. As I said earlier in this thread, improving Doc's mobility might land us in the middle of another Mewtwo scenario where the character jumps a few tiers "just because". -and with Mario already being a surprisingly polarizing top tier, his clone being up there too might just bring out some unnecessary frustrations. As I also said, I'm under the impression that when buffing a character, you shouldn't remove their weaknesses (as that feels like the cheap way out), but instead buff them in creative ways that compensate, mostly to avoid alienating fans of a character pre-change (This has actually happened to me twice, so I know the irritation - I've dropped characters over this kind of thing.). Doc already gets some flak for being a clone, so keeping him less like Mario (slower, but harder hitting) feels like a pretty decent thing to do, even if it cripples him in the long run.

(Also, as I typed this out, the OP responded to this too. RIP. Oh well.)

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the range thing

 

[FamilyTeam]

The idea of lowering his fall speed maybe slightly was indeed a thought that came across my head to make him get comboed less. Hey, it was just an idea, nothing serious.
I must agree that random range changes aren't exactly what he needs.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Okay these changes are questionable. While they could potentially help Doc, they won't make him be any better then Luigi, let alone Mario. The weight increase would aid in his survivability a ton (Though you should probably lower his gravity if you're trying to not to make him combo food), but the extra range simply just doesn't work in Doc's design.
Mario's design is that he doesn't have much range, but he makes up for it with fast attacks & great movement coverage, Doc is suppose to be slower in movement but stronger in attacks then Mario, the problem is that he doesn't have enough strength to back up the mobility he lost & vice-versa. (That's not even mentioning his lacking recovery, which IMO was overlooked by the designers.)

The suggestions you made doesn't fix the main problem with him at all. However, buffing his speed to the point where it helps him but he's still significantly slower then Mario, or increase his damage output so opponents are fearful of getting close to him due to his fast & strong attacks.

I'd honestly avoid improving his mobility, even though I'm well aware it's one of Doc's biggest weaknesses, and that's why I was reluctant to bring it up in the first place. Another "Mewtwo" situation would potentially be pretty negative for the game after all, and while I'm not implying that Doc would end up with Sheik run speed or anything, buffing Doc's running or air speed might just be the thing that tips, say, Doc's already decent combo game over the edge to being frustrating. -and while I doubt it would make him OP, a harder hitting Mario, even with slightly less options might actually end up as "too much", and a lot of people already don't like having one Mario in top tier. lol

I have a counter to that, Mewtwo's run speed went from 1.696 to 2.05, he went from slower then Donkey Kong to faster then Sheik. That's a huge buff that Doc doesn't need, IMO Mario & Sonic Guy's mobility changes for Doc are prefect:

Walk Speed: 0.902 < 0.98604
Run Speed: 1.312 < 1.43424
Air Speed: 0.943 < 1.00602
Air Acceleration: 0.0574 < 0.061992

Also, some people are always going to have a problem with any buffs to any previous character who weren't that good before.
It's not like Doc hasn't been largely hated before lol.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Okay these changes are questionable. While they could potentially help Doc, they won't make him be any better then Luigi, let alone Mario. The weight increase would aid in his survivability a ton (Though you should probably lower his gravity if you're trying to not to make him combo food), but the extra range simply just doesn't work in Doc's design.
Mario's design is that he doesn't have much range, but he makes up for it with fast attacks & great movement coverage, Doc is suppose to be slower in movement but stronger in attacks then Mario, the problem is that he doesn't have enough strength to back up the mobility he lost & vice-versa. (That's not even mentioning his lacking recovery, which IMO was overlooked by the designers.)

The suggestions you made doesn't fix the main problem with him at all. However, buffing his speed to the point where it helps him but he's still significantly slower then Mario, or increase his damage output so opponents are fearful of getting close to him due to his fast & strong attacks.




I have a counter to that, Mewtwo's run speed went from 1.696 to 2.05, he went from slower then Donkey Kong to faster then Sheik. That's a huge buff that Doc doesn't need, IMO Mario & Sonic Guy's mobility changes for Doc are prefect:

Walk Speed: 0.902 < 0.98604
Run Speed: 1.312 < 1.43424
Air Speed: 0.943 < 1.00602
Air Acceleration: 0.0574 < 0.061992

Also, some people are always going to have a problem with any buffs to any previous character who weren't that good before.
It's not like Doc hasn't been largely hated before lol.

I've explained the range buff time and time again, and i haven't even mentioned that an increased range could also potentially create new combos (or at the very least, mix-ups). As for the gravity decrease, that's actually a really good idea, so i will add that now. I also have some other buffs to add (Since most seem to agree these buffs are not enough).

P.S, check Super Jump Punch for an exciting new detail!

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

A. this thread is part of my own project
B. I explained that already (and yes it IS a weakness)
C. It wasn't my suggestion, but he could potentially benefit from it, both by being less susceptible to combos and having a slightly better recovery.
D. No, read Conn1496's comment.


Do some research before blindly criticising threads.

A. I know that it's a project of your own, but we had someone do something similar across all threads and the changes suggested were arbitrary as well. And the Doc forum has been filled with "How to buff Doc" threads instead of actual discussion.

B. You could argue that Doc isn't actually a pseudo-heavyweight and is just simply a slower, stronger version of Mario. He can still be just that WITHOUT range buffs. But if you wanted to keep him at the same speed, then you would have to make his attacks much stronger. No need to increase his hitbox sizes.

C. And by dying earlier at the top. He's not more susceptible than Mario. People need to start using Sheet to mix up their landings.

D. I read it, I think it's silly to worry about something like that (quite frankly, Mewtwo is pretty good, but he has significant flaws, such as weight, and slow attacks). And buffing his ground mobility doesn't mean make it faster than Mario or as fast. He would probably still be worse than Mario even if you buffed his ground speed. But it would just make the character more consistent at getting grabs or punishes in general. Remember, he's a slower and stronger version of MARIO. He doesn't have to stay as a really slow character and he would benefit more from mobility buffs. Ultimately, you want the character to have more options.

I've seen so many threads here that suggest these kind of buffs before, and most of them don't actually address his core flaw (i.e. he is too slow for the slower but stronger archetype). Yours don't either so I suggest you actually think harder about these buffs.

 

[Doc Mario]

A. I know that it's a project of your own, but we had someone do something similar across all threads and the changes suggested were arbitrary as well. And the Doc forum has been filled with "How to buff Doc" threads instead of actual discussion.

B. You could argue that Doc isn't actually a pseudo-heavyweight and is just simply a slower, stronger version of Mario. He can still be just that WITHOUT range buffs. But if you wanted to keep him at the same speed, then you would have to make his attacks much stronger. No need to increase his hitbox sizes.

C. And by dying earlier at the top. He's not more susceptible than Mario. People need to start using Sheet to mix up their landings.

D. I read it, I think it's silly to worry about something like that (quite frankly, Mewtwo is pretty good, but he has significant flaws, such as weight, and slow attacks). And buffing his ground mobility doesn't mean make it faster than Mario or as fast. He would probably still be worse than Mario even if you buffed his ground speed. But it would just make the character more consistent at getting grabs or punishes in general. Remember, he's a slower and stronger version of MARIO. He doesn't have to stay as a really slow character and he would benefit more from mobility buffs. Ultimately, you want the character to have more options.

I've seen so many threads here that suggest these kind of buffs before, and most of them don't actually address his core flaw (i.e. he is too slow for the slower but stronger archetype). Yours don't either so I suggest you actually think harder about these buffs.

Very well said, you know his mobility is terrible when he can't even run faster than Dedede lol, sure he needs to be slower than Mario, but he doesn't need to be among the slowest in the entire cast especially if he has poor range like Mario. He was aimed to be balanced (Like Mario) but is far from it, he hits kinda hard yeah, but he runs terribly slow, it's just not a far trade for him. Like Eight_SixtyFour said "he is too slow for the slower but stronger archetype" Buff his mobility he'll have options and still have have the same weaknesses as Mario but likely a bit more exploitable due to not being quite as fast as Mario. It's the perfect buff for him and I'm still surprised it has yet to be done

Also... The only hitbox on Doc I'd like to see buffed is Super Sheet

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Very well said, you know his mobility is terrible when he can't even run faster than Dedede lol, sure he needs to be slower than Mario, but he doesn't need to be among the slowest in the entire cast especially if he has poor range like Mario. He was aimed to be balanced (Like Mario) but is far from it, he hits kinda hard yeah, but he runs terribly slow, it's just not a far trade for him. Like Eight_SixtyFour said "he is too slow for the slower but stronger archetype" Buff his mobility he'll have options and still have have the same weaknesses as Mario but likely a bit more exploitable due to not being quite as fast as Mario. It's the perfect buff for him and I'm still surprised it has yet to be done

Also... The only hitbox on Doc I'd like to see buffed is Super Sheet

The reason I decided to buff his range rather than his mobility is because I want him to feel less like a clone of mario, so while MARIO' weakness is range, dr mario's weakness is mobility.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

The reason I decided to buff his range rather than his mobility is because I want him to feel less like a clone of mario, so while MARIO' weakness is range, dr mario's weakness is mobility.

?? That's not his main weakness. It's his lack of strong finishing moves (sauf Up Smash).

Mario and Doc are pretty different from each other and that's not going to change significantly if Doc were to get a mobility buff.

 

[Doc Mario]

?? That's not his main weakness. It's his lack of strong finishing moves (sauf Up Smash).

Mario and Doc are pretty different from each other and that's not going to change significantly if Doc were to get a mobility buff.

Exactly, Doc has poor mobility and range, it's more than just one weakness, mobility buff would definitely fix the problem for Doc. He shouldn't be running on par with Ganondorf but can't hit harder than Luigi or Peach. With a mobility buff he'll still have below average movement but it would be a far trade for his slightly above average power. That's really all he needs to be fixed really, Doc has great frame data like Mario so why increase his strengths instead fixing the core problem of the character?