The ideal patch: Luigi

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Luigi was once considered very good in this game, however a series of nerfs combined with people learning the matchups caused Luigi's place on the tier list to drop. Hopefully this entry in the series will help to mitigate that somewhat.

Run speed: 1.5 -> 1.55
Air speed: 0.73418 -> 0.85
Utilt FAF: 31 -> 29
Dtilt angle: 361 -> 80
Dtilt Base Knockback: 20 -> 25
Dtilt FAF: 27 -> 24
Dtilt hitbox size: 4.8/3.8 -> 4.9/3.9
Fsmash base damage: 15 -> 15.5
Down taunt duration: 70 -> 60
Down taunt hitbox size: 3.0 -> 3.3
Down taunt hitbox active: 45 -> 44-46
Back throw KBG: 65 -> 70
Down throw KBG: 83 -> 76
Fair FAF: 24 -> 22
Fair hitbox size: 5.6/3.84 -> 5.8/3.9
Dair (spike) hitbox size: 2.5 -> 2.8
Green Missile misfire damage: 25 -> 27
Green Missile hitbox size: 4.2-> 4.5
Up special ground sweetspot hitbox size: 2.2 -> 2.4
Up special air sweetspot hitbox size: 2.7 -> 3.0
Up special air sweetspot damage: 20 -> 22
Luigi Cyclone vertical boost per input +4%

 

[Luigi player]

A Luigi wishlist thread?
I don't think all of this would be justified lol. He'd be really broken then.

More run speed + bigger upB hitbox = upB would be too good of a punish
Especially if you give dtilt 3 less endframes so dtilt trip to upB would probably be a true (kill-)combo.

Now what I'd like to see would be useless or really bad moves made somewhat usable,
DownB not that hard to mash for without momentum,
and just a little better movement.

So...

Utilt could get a small buff. It's only rarely useful, because of worse range than usmash, and generally you'd rather go for grabs anyway. Maybe make the FAF 1 less instead of your suggested 2, or else it could end up like Fox' utilt maybe, which would be way too good. Maybe the hitbox should stay out longer above him to make it easier to catch someone in it (somewhat like Marios utilt). Something like that.

Dtilt: really, really bad move. It definitely needs something. Less FAF seems like a good idea since it feels really bad and even if you hit with it you don't really gain anything from it. But I guess the opponent shouldn't be able to trip from it so you don't get a free upB after. Maybe just a little more knockback. Make it hit like 20° or something, Idk.
Maybe dtilt won't be able to trip at upB KO-% with more KB like you suggested so that could work as well.

Ftilt: give it something.. anything that makes it useful. 98 % of the time I rather jab. Ftilt really needs some kind of use to make it more useful... maybe a little bit less startup, a little more range. Just a bit.

Dashattack: give it more range and burst momentum (think of Smash64), maybe not a multihit as well, or make the hits connect properly. Almost every dashattack I do is a misclick. So it'd even help me if he didn't have the move at all, even if it can have a use very seldom. Also a bit less endlag so you don't eat a smashattack if it's shielded/dodged or you miss.

SideB: give it higher priority/a bigger disjoint, just a little bit. It's pretty useless and only for recovery, where Luigi gets a big sign with the text "please gimp me" on it, since it's soo laggy. It should probably get a few frames less endlag, though I'm not sure if that would make it too good of a recovery move. With just ~2 frames less endlag it shouldn't be too big of a deal, though.

DownB: easier to mash (make it able to buffer inputs like in Brawl so you're able to mash normally).

Airspeed: a bit better would be really nice.


Luigi feels like a slow brick in the air that can't move horizontally. SideB is too laggy to be useful as a recovery or get-out-of-juggles-tool. It really misses the whole point of it existing.
DownB is way too hard to mash for realistically. Even the best mashers mess up, and if you have to do it too often you won't be able to do it anymore since you'll be too exhausted. That's not how it should be.

All his tilts are almost useless since his usmash and jabs are better tools by far in almost every situation.
His dashattack is more of a hindrance than it helps. It's so laggy that it can always be punished really hard if you don't hit with it or even if it's just shielded, and the opponent can easily fall out as well to make him able to punish it.

A little more airspeed would really help him a lot. Makes him not needing to never use his doublejump onstage or else if he gets hit offstage without it he's almost as good as dead.
It would also help him to make crossups in the air since right now it's easy to punish any landing aerial. For Mario it's a very viable thing to do to keep your opponent guessing on which side you land.


Another thing I could see is giving him more KB on his fair. It would stop combos from being too powerful sometimes and make it more like it was in Melee. If he can threaten with a strong move in front of him it would also stop opponents from trying to combat it since their reward for hitting through or trading is much more than their risk of getting hit right now.


The most helpful would probably just be airspeed, sideB less endlag or easier downB. His recovery is so easily punishable and he's moving so slowly that he never wants to be in the situation. If any of these things would be changed it would make it a bit less terrifying for Luigi.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

A Luigi wishlist thread?
I don't think all of this would be justified lol. He'd be really broken then.

More run speed + bigger upB hitbox = upB would be too good of a punish
Especially if you give dtilt 3 less endframes so dtilt trip to upB would probably be a true (kill-)combo.

Now what I'd like to see would be useless or really bad moves made somewhat usable,
DownB not that hard to mash for without momentum,
and just a little better movement.

So...

Utilt could get a small buff. It's only rarely useful, because of worse range than usmash, and generally you'd rather go for grabs anyway. Maybe make the FAF 1 less instead of your suggested 2, or else it could end up like Fox' utilt maybe, which would be way too good. Maybe the hitbox should stay out longer above him to make it easier to catch someone in it (somewhat like Marios utilt). Something like that.

Dtilt: really, really bad move. It definitely needs something. Less FAF seems like a good idea since it feels really bad and even if you hit with it you don't really gain anything from it. But I guess the opponent shouldn't be able to trip from it so you don't get a free upB after. Maybe just a little more knockback. Make it hit like 20° or something, Idk.
Maybe dtilt won't be able to trip at upB KO-% with more KB like you suggested so that could work as well.

Ftilt: give it something.. anything that makes it useful. 98 % of the time I rather jab. Ftilt really needs some kind of use to make it more useful... maybe a little bit less startup, a little more range. Just a bit.

Dashattack: give it more range and burst momentum (think of Smash64), maybe not a multihit as well, or make the hits connect properly. Almost every dashattack I do is a misclick. So it'd even help me if he didn't have the move at all, even if it can have a use very seldom. Also a bit less endlag so you don't eat a smashattack if it's shielded/dodged or you miss.

SideB: give it higher priority/a bigger disjoint, just a little bit. It's pretty useless and only for recovery, where Luigi gets a big sign with the text "please gimp me" on it, since it's soo laggy. It should probably get a few frames less endlag, though I'm not sure if that would make it too good of a recovery move. With just ~2 frames less endlag it shouldn't be too big of a deal, though.

DownB: easier to mash (make it able to buffer inputs like in Brawl so you're able to mash normally).

Airspeed: a bit better would be really nice.


Luigi feels like a slow brick in the air that can't move horizontally. SideB is too laggy to be useful as a recovery or get-out-of-juggles-tool. It really misses the whole point of it existing.
DownB is way too hard to mash for realistically. Even the best mashers mess up, and if you have to do it too often you won't be able to do it anymore since you'll be too exhausted. That's not how it should be.

All his tilts are almost useless since his usmash and jabs are better tools by far in almost every situation.
His dashattack is more of a hindrance than it helps. It's so laggy that it can always be punished really hard if you don't hit with it or even if it's just shielded, and the opponent can easily fall out as well to make him able to punish it.

A little more airspeed would really help him a lot. Makes him not needing to never use his doublejump onstage or else if he gets hit offstage without it he's almost as good as dead.
It would also help him to make crossups in the air since right now it's easy to punish any landing aerial. For Mario it's a very viable thing to do to keep your opponent guessing on which side you land.


Another thing I could see is giving him more KB on his fair. It would stop combos from being too powerful sometimes and make it more like it was in Melee. If he can threaten with a strong move in front of him it would also stop opponents from trying to combat it since their reward for hitting through or trading is much more than their risk of getting hit right now.


The most helpful would probably just be airspeed, sideB less endlag or easier downB. His recovery is so easily punishable and he's moving so slowly that he never wants to be in the situation. If any of these things would be changed it would make it a bit less terrifying for Luigi.

So i have a few things to say. I genuinely think the up tilt buff wouldn't be overdoing it, especially since as you said, it is hard to land. I think you misunderstood the Dtilt change, by making the angle 80, it will always lift the opponent off the ground, and wouldn't have to rely on trips to get followups. I also made the hitbox larger to make the move easier to land. The increased knockback was to help it deal enough hitstun to allow followups at reasonable percents. Ftilts are generally not very great, so it isn't crippling to Luigi. I actually really wanted to change dash attack, but the code is basically unreadable, if you know someone who could help with that, that would be great! Actually I should increase side B's hitbox size a bit. I will change Down B as well.

 

[Yonder]

Mostly agreed with Luigi Player. I would primarily fix his tilts (they are all pretty bad even u tilt has little utility), a bit more air speed, and giving green missile a bit more priority? I hate when a misfire is cancelled out by so many things, it should just plow through them. I think smash input missile should have higher priority than a non smash input one.

Also I would like brawl levels of cyclone distance in terms of b button mashing for jumpless cyclone. 12 times a second is ridiculously hard and off-putting for people wanting to use Luigi in hgiher play(where mashing is literally mandatory). What other character requires that much mashing?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Also I would like brawl levels of cyclone distance in terms of b button mashing for jumpless cyclone. 12 times a second is ridiculously hard and off-putting for people wanting to use Luigi in hgiher play(where mashing is literally mandatory). What other character requires that much mashing?

I whole hearty agree with this.
Also Doc's Tornado requires the same amount of button mashing but that's mostly because it was modeled after Luigi's.

 

[MERPIS]

This isn't right at all
Luigi really needs to be as fast as rosa and have the same airspeed as Mario. Thats literally it.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

This isn't right at all
Luigi really needs to be as fast as rosa and have the same airspeed as Mario. Thats literally it.

wow, i don't even know where to begin with that...

 

[MERPIS]

wow, i don't even know where to begin with that...

Not everything is bigger hitboxes and more kill power. That's literally all you put in these "Ideal" patches for characters. Try asking for what buffs to give characters rather than just pulling random ones out of nowhere.

 

[The_progenitor]

IMO all Luigi would really need to take off is:
1) His old Fireball back (or at least one that can actually confirm shield and space in the neutral to make it safe to grab)
2) An actual, reliable kill confirm, even if it's only at a very specific percent range. The only things we have right now is a 50/50 cyclone mixup at kill percent, and an extremely tight Dair Spike / Soft Nair / Sour Up Air at very specific percents > Critical Hit. Even just making Cyclone have a 5-10% window where it can actually combo into kill before becoming a 50/50 would do him wonders.

Right now, despite having some less than ideal moves (DTilt is only ever good if it trips, UTilt is only good at mid percent to drag down into another grab instead of Up Smashing for damage, Dash Attack has a very niche use of covering specific ledge options, but you'd rather to cyclone gimp anyway, etc.), he has absolutely ridiculous combo game. As it stands, if he gets just 1-2 grabs, he can immediately convert to combo strings that lead to kill percent, but not an actual kill. Because of his terrible traction and movement speed in air, as well as an almost completely useless projectile in neutral, getting that one grab is the hard part, and it honestly should be for how much value he gets off it. Yet I still feel it's just a bit too hard to do so; hence a buff to a tool he can use to confirm shield for tick throws.

However, even though you can rack up ludicrous value off not very much, he has even fewer kill setups than sheik. I can't tell you how many times I've opened a stock by dealing 68% or so to my opponent from 1 combo, then waiting two minutes of back and forth fishing for a kill move. If he just had something to try and go for that was usable from most situations to close out a stock at a specific percent range, much like Bowser's Up Throw > Up Air kill confirm though probably at a much tighter range, then Luigi could be come a very scary character to face.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

I believe that Luigi doesn't actually need all that much to be the best in the game. At the moment, I think he is high c tier or even the bottom of b tier. I think to be a truly great character he needs ...
1) Better Airspeed (preferably the same speed as Mario or Wario)
2) Better Running Speed ( Preferably around the same speed as Marth)
3) A Stronger Back air or Up air
4) A slightly bigger down-tilt hitbox that trips consistently.
5) A Slightly longer Up-b length
6) Slightly Less lag on his Side-b

There you go. I think if you go any further he will be a broken and stupid character.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

I believe that Luigi doesn't actually need all that much to be the best in the game. At the moment, I think he is high c tier or even the bottom of b tier. I think to be a truly great character he needs ...
1) Better Airspeed (preferably the same speed as Mario or Wario)
2) Better Running Speed ( Preferably around the same speed as Marth)
3) A Stronger Back air or Up air
4) A slightly bigger down-tilt hitbox that trips consistently.
5) A Slightly longer Up-b length
6) Slightly Less lag on his Side-b

There you go. I think if you go any further he will be a broken and stupid character.

Oh, and also slightly better traction

 

[MERPIS]

3) A Stronger Back air or Up air

His bair is already incredibly strong, it needs bigger sweetspot hitboxes though. Also stronger uair would give Luigi a hoo hah that kills.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

His bair is already incredibly strong, it needs bigger sweetspot hitboxes though. Also stronger uair would give Luigi a hoo hah that kills.

You are absoultley right. Instead of that, how about..

3) foward tilt range slightly increased

 

[MERPIS]

You are absoultley right. Instead of that, how about..

3) foward tilt range slightly increased

.....You buff THAT? You can do better, come on, give Luggy what he needs.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

.....You buff THAT? You can do better, come on, give Luggy what he needs.

Honestly, I think it is a fair Buff.
Fine,

3.1) Foward Tilt range increased
3.2) Foward Smash Range increased
3.3) Up-b sour spot does more hitstun
3.4) Fireball range increased by x1.4
3.5) Fireball speed increased by x1.4
3.6) foward throw knockback increased by X 1.2

 

[MarioMeteor]

Either increase his mobility or give him back his old down throw, doing both might be too much. Either of them would greatly help the character out, though.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

Either increase his mobility or give him back his old down throw, doing both might be too much. Either of them would greatly help the character out, though.

How about instead of that

1) increase his mobility
2) slightly decrease his up throw knock back and knock back scaling

It wouldn't be as bad aa giving his down throw back, but it would spice up his punish game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

How about instead of that

1) increase his mobility
2) slightly decrease his up throw knock back and knock back scaling

It wouldn't be as bad aa giving his down throw back, but it would spice up his punish game.

It wouldn't help much in the long run, because down throw is inherently a better throw for comboing than down throw. Nothing would be bad about giving him his old down throw. People would complain, maybe, but the character wouldn't be broken.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

It wouldn't help much in the long run, because down throw is inherently a better throw for comboing than down throw. Nothing would be bad about giving him his old down throw. People would complain, maybe, but the character wouldn't be broken.

Yeah, but combine that with everything else I have said and now you got a broken character

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah, but combine that with everything else I have said and now you got a broken character

Yes, which is precisely why I specifically said not to give him both at the same time.

 

[RaagsToRiches]

Yes, which is precisely why I specifically said not to give him both at the same time.

No, I meant in a previous post.

 

[Lookandlearn]

Run Speed : 1,65
Air Speed : 0,9
FAF Down B : 70
FAF Side B : 75
F-air :
-Hitbox : 6-9
-Autocancel : <15 (21 frames for a weak combo move is sooo much)

Optionnal :

N-air :
-Landing lag : 12
-Weak n-air less kg
U-tilt :
-FAF : 29
D-Throw :
KG : 75 to allow more follow ups (or kill confirm) on high %

But the mobility has to be fixed in the next smash, i still cannot wonder why Luigi has a really bad mobility in SSB, as in all others Mario games, he runs faster than Mario and goes further.

 

[MERPIS]

more mobility

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I did give him more mobility

 

[Scot B]

Luigi does not need buffs, but I do think some of his moves need to be fixed.

-Luigi cyclone should have less lag and maybe less start up, but should not semi spike from the bottom.
-Green Missile is garbage because the hitbox doesn't reach in front of his hurtbox, it should also snap to ledge honestly.
-Luigi cyclone should also be easier to mash without a jump, to make up for this they could just scale back how high you go when using a jump.