The Mr. Game and Watch Matchup Thread! Currently Discussing: Fox

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Alright, I'm going to need some help with making this, so I am going to start out with a skeleton and work from there...

The New Matchup Thread!

​

50:50 (0) Even
55:45 (+1) Very Slight Advantage
60:40 (+1) Slight Advantage
65:35 (+2) Somewhat Slight Advantage
70:30 (+2) Advantage
75:25 (+3) Strong Advantage
80:20 (+3) Very Strong Advantage
85:15 (+4) Piece of Cake
90:10 (+4) Layer of Cake
95:5 (+4) Change your character, don't be that big of an ***

And the MU Chart V2 Ratios:

[COLLAPSE="FACTUAL MATCHUPS HERE"]-5: [/COLLAPSE]
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

<<Place Matchup Image Here>>

Matchups will be discussed in order of controversy.

As we progress I will add images of each character as their discussion is commenced. Click the names to go to their respective export.

Meta Knight

Olimar

Diddy Kong

Ice Climbers

Snake

Falco

Marth

Pikachu

Wario

Zero Suit Samus

Fox

 

[Dexident]

Good job on starting this Meow, it's good to see something happening. Hmm.. GW v MK, I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with this match up but I can think of one really important technique:

When they mach tornado, try and chase after them and up-b near the end of it as it will send them flying upwards in a helpless state which will hopefully lead to a great punish. But you all know this, I'm sure.

 

[Rizen]

The MK boards don't need to discuss MUs; they can just take what other character boards say about the MK MU since it's usually the first discussed.

I'm wondering how many people who post here are qualified to discuss MUs. Several new G&Wers, like myself, don't have a lot of experience with G&W vs good players.

Anyway, MK seems to outclass G&W; one of those 'anything G&W can do MK can do better' things. Fortunately MK is light and can die early.
His nado has 3 hitbubbles to MK's left, bottom, and right that protect him. MK's in the center of the nado and any attack that hits him without also hitting the hitbubbles will work. F/B/Dair from above can hit. Windboxes are G&W's trump card but I'll let a more experienced G&W talk about that.

 

[Dexident]

Yeah I'm with Rizen, we're going to need some higher level GW mains to chime in here. But they just don't seem to frequent the forum all that much...

 

[SFA Smiley]

I already told you, they don't care. Nobody cares about GW.

It's just something you gotta accept. We need to do the particularly hard matchups/ Tricky ones that are relevant first

Snake, Olimar, Falco, ZSS, D3, Diddy etc

IMO

 

[Patches]

You guys. I'm in. I know this match up. First things first. MK has a terrible free falling speed, abuse it via using uair to keep him up and punish him accordingly. This could lead to early gimps, or kill set ups.

Next, if MK doesn't tech the dthrow, you get a guaranteed dsmash.

He's lightweight and can get juggled, take advantage of that using nair, bair, uair, utilt, and upb.

If you're caught in nado, DI and mash up b to get out of it and sometimes sending MK a free fall state where you can punish accordingly.

I'll type more tomorrow, I typed out this on my phone. Ahah the gritty details of the match up are coming up.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I already told you, they don't care. Nobody cares about GW.

It's just something you gotta accept. We need to do the particularly hard matchups/ Tricky ones that are relevant first

Snake, Olimar, Falco, ZSS, D3, Diddy etc

IMO

Patches cares.

And most of the hard matchups are in order, (Diddy, Snake, Falco, Marth, IC's) but if we think that lower tier matchups should be discussed earlier we can do that. As long as there is some sort of order to it and it isn't just taking pictures of all of the characters and putting them on a dartboard.


Things to discuss about MK:
-Air game
-Getting back to the stage unharmed
-Mach tornado punishment
-Ranges of moves, and which ones can beat him
-Getting past his priority
-Getting the grab (of death)

 

[Patches]

I'll try to cover all these tomorrow. I'll also try talking to GIMR and vinnie and see if they have anything they could say. (:

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Awesome, I'll be on later tomorrow, I have some testing to do tomorrow morning. (Saturday tests are the best!)

 

[Sylarius]

Next, if MK doesn't tech the dthrow, you get a guaranteed dsmash.

You get a guaranteed fsmash too if you buffer it and if you correctly predict which side of the stage he will land on.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274320

 

[Patches]

Alright. You guys wanted to discuss lets do this shiz.

Air game: Like I stated in my post before, MKs free fall speed is horrible, so whenever you have a chance try to abuse that by keeping him up in the air with uair, and then punish accordingly. Metaknight is easy to juggle to an extent, but you may find that its easier to get out of our combos due to his small frame.

If the opportunity arises, try to catch MK with nair, and combo him. You can generally get some easy damage off on him by using nair, bair and upb. If you find yourself above him, your best chance is to dair. He will attempt to stop this using uair, but dair will beat it. If hes chasing you in the air, air dodge beneath him, and uair to keep him up in the air. Fair is going to lead to some early kills if you catch him off guard with it, probably around 100% or so.

Getting back to the stage:

GaW has two ways of recovering against a metaknight. High, or low. If you recover low, theres more of a chance of you getting gimped, however it gets you at least to the ledge quicker. If you recover higher, chances are, you wont get gimped, but you might take a hit. which all in all is the better outcome. Once you get to the edge, your options get a little broader. What I find works out well, is if you jump from the ledge, and use upb, it can sometimes catch him off guard, or if he tries to shuttle loop, he can sometimes get shot upwards from the windframes, giving you a completely safe way to get back onto the stage. dropping down, jumping and hitting MK with fair is also a good way to give yourself a safe way back onto the stage. if hes edge guarding you, try dropping down and using nair, hitting him through the stage.

punishing nado:

your best way to do this, is by trying to get him into that free falling state if you get trapped by it. You can also DI out of it, and use dair or even fair. if you find that MK is above you and using nado, the very first thing you should do is try to use uair to send him further up, from there, punish accordingly after nado ends. If MK is recovering using Nado, try to predict where you think he may go, and try charging up fsmash or something among those lines to edgeguard him. if MK is approaching with nado, run away from it, try charging up a smash, or knocking him out of it with fair.

I'll type more after work. My brain isnt quite working yet.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

In my experience, dair does not beat upair.

Learning to tilt your shield will make dealing with tornado a lot easier, you can basically just sit there until he goes away. If you're feeling particularly flashy, you could PSC (power-shield cancel) into upb and send that ***** up into the sky, then hit him for free when he's free falling.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Patches cares.

My point is that none of this is going to make these boards any less dead. The same few people are going to post here regardless.

Just sayin'

It's just gonna be the same few people discussing things that have been discussed 5million times because there's nothing to discuss :eyeroll:

But yeah I don't completely agree with everything patches says. MK can beat Dair by falling with it and then uair, tornadoing in a way where it eats your dair, or Uptilting it (Which also kills Gdubs earlier than other characters for obvious reasons. Mix up Slowfall and normal dairs, airdodges, use smashville's platform (Wisely) in order to get back down to the ground.

Good summaries so far, though.

I'll post some stuff later if anybody wants my opinion on stuff. Just woke up groggy as all hell.

 

[Patches]

If you're close enough to him, dair can beat uair. I've done it before. But you guys are right also, my MK knowledge might have died a little considering my region is MK banned.

 

[Sylarius]

You should list the matchups according to the Matchup Chart V2, and maybe discrepancies that better G&W players have with the tier list.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298647

Although that's just my opinion <_<, I like how that thread is laid out, also threads for matchups would probably be better than every single matchup in one thread, it makes it easier to post about one matchup (there's a thread for it) instead of posting in the same thread when another matchup could be discussed.

 

[SFA Smiley]

If you're close enough to him, dair can beat uair. I've done it before. But you guys are right also, my MK knowledge might have died a little considering my region is MK banned.

Don't get me wrong,it will, I'm just saying don't rely on it because MK has things he can do about it

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Okay, so the best thing that we can do to MK is juggle him, but how can we get him in the air?
What moves outrange MK -- Bair?
What stages are best for fighting him?
Where should we avoid going to/ban? (Other than MK)
Techniques to get in a grab?
Best tech chases if we get a grab?

And just theorycrafting here:
--When trying to recover, would we be able to wait until he jumps towards us to up-b, ensuring our safe return, or should we just take the hit and recover high?
--Does bacon beat any of his approaches, or generally work well against him?

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Bair does not outrange MK, he can beat it with ftilt and upb.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Well, hopefully they don't do GSL that often in fear of our Uair on him, but does anything (worth using) outrange him?

 

[SFA Smiley]

Well, hopefully they don't do GSL that often in fear of our Uair on him, but does anything (worth using) outrange him?

No. MK's who know the matchup will just wait for you to do something and UP-B/ ftilt/ dsmash/ dtilt outta shield

GW get's ***** by good oos options, It's a major reason MK, Marth, Diddy are so hard, most of his moves are commitments on a shielding opponent. There's ways around that though.

The closest thing we have to outranging MK is Dtilt but MK still outranges it. But they will usually get hit with it a few times if they have bad spacing

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Okay, so the best thing to do is try and make them attack first and punish?

And Bair always pokes shield unless they PS it, and then if it's spaced properly, you should be able to get far enough away to not get his Oos.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

And Bair always pokes shield unless they PS it, and then if it's spaced properly, you should be able to get far enough away to not get his Oos.

I have heard a lot of inaccurate things about bair, but this is one of the worst. Bair rarely pokes through the shield, and if you land in range of the turtle (for example, landing with the turtle's head hitting their shield) upb oos will still hit you. You have to like, do turtle on the top of his shield and land really far away to not get punished.

Also, grounded shuttle loop fears nothing, even if you windbox him he can still just glide back down. Maybe one out of every five times you will get lucky and upb right when he's about to do it or something, and even then it's not a guaranteed punish.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Wow really? Not a single time I used bair on a shield did I fail to poke it, and I use it a lot. But the second part is probably wrong there, I just made that up because I didn't want a short post.

 

[Sylarius]

I think you have the wrong definition of "poking" someone's shield. It's when you attack someone that's shielding, and you hit them where their shield isn't guarding them (this usually happens when their shield is low)

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

That's exactly what I mean, I do it on full shields all the time and not once have I failed to hit them (for damage+knockback)

It might be from the landing hitbox as well, or they just drop shield early and I haven't noticed it.

 

[SFA Smiley]

That's exactly what I mean, I do it on full shields all the time and not once have I failed to hit them (for damage+knockback)

It might be from the landing hitbox as well, or they just drop shield early and I haven't noticed it.

It's the second thing.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Its just strange that I have never seen it happen, ever.

 

[Sylarius]

Strange.
Also if you're going to list discrepancies from players and the tier list, Vinnie thinks that G&W vs MK is -1, not -2, and Jebus thinks G&W vs Marth is -3. (that's all I can remember at the moment)
Also personally I think G&W vs Olimar is -2 <_< but my opinion doesn't count

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I was thinking that going by discrepancies can be done later on, because the first 8 or so people are all in need of rediscussion.

I probably will change the order after that.


And everyone's opinion counts ^.^

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Who is Jebus

 

[Dexident]

MK can really eat through a lot of chefs quickly and still come at you with f-air or SL. But I maintain that sporadic, safe and unpredictable uses of chef can be a good thing in any match up.

 

[Sylarius]

Who is Jebus

 

[Rizen]

Strange.
Also if you're going to list discrepancies from players and the tier list, Vinnie thinks that G&W vs MK is -1, not -2, and Jebus thinks G&W vs Marth is -3. (that's all I can remember at the moment)
Also personally I think G&W vs Olimar is -2 <_< but my opinion doesn't count

I thought [FONT=&quot]Jebus used Diddy[/FONT]? He probably uses several characters. He's crazy good, I can vouch for that.

A lot of the G&W vs MK MU seems like G&W has to play the spacing game but work 2times faster/harder than MK and KO from good reads. MK can nado sloppy approaches and even though he has much less power MK's UpB and Dsmash are super broken in speed, power, range and almost impossible to punish. MK has no trouble KOing but G&W does.
Like I said, MK outclasses G&W. G&W has a relatively good MU vs MK but he has (metaphorically) weaker options. MK can shark G&W too. My experience is limited but IMO the MU is -2 for G&W.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Yes, G&W does get outclassed in every way by MK. There is, however, one tiny advantage that I think a lot of people don't realize. G&W is the only character who can aggressively pursue MK off the stage with little risk. Most MKs aren't prepared for this since most characters leave them more or less alone while they recover.

 

[Gardex]

^^^Yes I love doing that. Going aggro against MK off-stage is amazing.

Also, I'd like to point out that you cannot DI a nado, but unless you're fighting a TAS MK(Which you are not), then there wont be flawless nados all the times, which means that you have a decent chance at sending him up in the sky everytime you're inside the tornado.

Having MK above you is so amazing. His terrible aerial acceleration and speed just means that you can uair him until you see an opening. If he tries to glide away, then it's a free nair-- and then you continue to uair him. I usually finish it off with an up b when he tries to jump/air dodge away.

Then the situation has reset, except you've refreshed your moves, and given the MK a higher percentage.

I feel like this MU is really momentum-based, and it's usually the first one to get the %-lead that will have the advantage, because both characters are pretty good at shutting down the other one's approach.

You can dash attack every recovery option he has, btw.

 

[Sylarius]

Punish dsmash with a dash attack.

 

[Rizen]

I think tornado's 1st hit and final hit are SDI-able but most of the nado has no hitstun but 'suspends' you and deals damage. You can always DI upwards but only SDI the connecting and launching hits.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Next time I am at a computer, I am going to make a separate post for the matchups, so if you have anything to say, hold on to it, the thread should be up in the next 12 hours or so.




EDIT: Here it is: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321161

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Alright, Snake discussion is up, please discuss who to examine after he is done.

 

[Rizen]

I would like to discuss the Peach MU next. She gives me trouble.