The next iteration of Lucas. The subject of balance.

[Eisen]

Since I picked up Lucas in 2.5b, I've been increasingly satisfied with the character, except for a few touches. But, in more recent months, I've noticed an increasing sentiment that Lucas is overpowered, or at least "stupid". Sometimes the accusation is serious, sometimes it's not, but I find it difficult to meet too many people who are willing to discuss it objectively and in detail, or even throw out ideas. Most people just lose interest or just say "he needs a nerf". On the other hand, I also see people saying he sucks, which I think is completely uninformed. I think all accusations should be taken seriously, as any defamation of character could hurt Lucas in the long run.

I opened this thread to discuss what things should or could change in Lucas' next rendition, whether it be nerfs, buffs, experiments, or easter eggs. I want to hear this board's opinion on Lucas: past, present, and future. I'll try to give mine as briefly as I know how.


General:
- Top or high tier at worst
- Very Fun character
- Has a lot of potential
- I think the nerf to magnet in 3.0 was a mistake. I feel he plays too much like a spacie + a couple ridiculous moves now.
____
Pros:
- Pressure
- Movement
- Options
- Recovery?
- Combos
- Solid moveset

Cons:
- OU charged smashes are REALLY good. Right now, I feel like they give too much bonus for how much you can use them. I'd be fine if it was nerfed in potency or if it was a one-time charge.
- dair is kind of silly in how it traps people, its infinites, and its comboability into the amazing upsmash + other moves. Not sure how diverse his follow ups should or shouldn't be, though. It's probably just a problem with usmash being absurd.
- tether, while filling a major hole in Lucas' recovery game, may be a little too good; specifically, it's LONG at the ledge. But so far, Lucas seems easy enough to gimp to counteract its length. Not sure about this one. If his tether weren't good though, he'd probably have one of the worst recoveries in the game, if not the worst.
- he's taken down by characters who punish his relatively slow zoning neutral. Not sure how big a flaw this really is, but it came to mind, even though I don't have too big a problem with it.

Ideas as to what I am open to change:
- Nerfs on tether and OU charge (power or how many times you can use it)
- Fix Dair infinites/silliness
- Maybe tone down zair's ledge reach
- Give back some of magnet's ability to eat shields away. People may not realize it, but it's generally super easy to get out of, even if you're against a technical Lucas. It kind of invalidates the point of doing it.

I feel the last aspect is the most important in the sense that nurturing magnet would help define Lucas even further. Right now, I see a lot of people comparing him to spacies or Ness, which, while sort of invalid, isn't TOO far off. He did lose some identity in 3.0 because magnet just became another shine move, I feel like. It's not really worth it to go for shield pressure anymore; Moves like nair and fair are better for eating shields, I get the impression. Magnet is just an in-between move that is safe for you to back out of at any time.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm in the minority here. Don't get me wrong, I love Lucas like he is, but it depresses me to think of what a missed opportunity he's turning out to be. I realize that not all others feel the same, though. I have a personal bias for his shield pressure game because, well, to be completely honest: Badge's shield pressure video is what made me pick up Project M and Lucas seriously. And I KNOW that's not the case for everyone. Basically, I would be okay with him continuing the path he's going, but I would also be disappointed.

Anyway, I should close by saying I don't want Lucas too good and I don't want him overnerfed. I'm worried one or the other is going to happen in the next Project M build, and I don't think it's going to be any easier to help fix if there isn't an organized public place to discuss things.

I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read and/or contribute to the thread.

 

[Jamwa]

nothing wrong with dair -> Usmash
pretty sure it can be SDI/ASDId on reaction since it takes 4 hits to pop them up.
To SDI it you just SDI up so that the last hit forces a techroll and doesnt put you into usmash.
not sure if that is possible though; normally you can sdi a multihit move to force a techroll

 

[Badge]

To SDI it you just SDI up so that the last hit forces a techroll and doesnt put you into usmash.
not sure if that is possible though; normally you can sdi a multihit move to force a techroll

If you're hit with DAir while airborn you can (A)SDI up to prevent getting carried to the ground by the weak hits or - depending on the potency of your SDI and the vertical momentum of the Lucas - even prevent the third hit altogether.
If you're grounded when the DAir connects, (A)SDI up won't do anything at all for the first two hits and nothing interesting for the third hit. Here you can force the tech until high percents via DI to the side and ASDI downwards (Control Stick to the side, C-Stick down).
In both cases you can try to escape via SDI to the side depending on the movement of the Lucas etc.

My opinion on the OP:

Lucas is mostly fine. He may be one of the strongest characters in the game, but he's also very well designed imo and only has a few quirks that could be changed, like dash grab animation/active frames. Most of the nerfs that were thrown around in the tier list thread wouldn't change his core or do much to bring him down. If people feel better if he has another Neutral Special, a weaker UpThrow and a shorter tether - sure, go ahead, we can deal with it. As long as you don't make magnet hold vertical momentum or something, which I'm sure the PMBR won't do. The PMBR usually has been very reasonable with characters the public didn't receive well and done their best to not make them worse per se, but instead remove their over the top attributes and give them something else in return.

- Give back some of magnet's ability to eat shields away. People may not realize it, but it's generally super easy to get out of, even if you're against a technical Lucas. It kind of invalidates the point of doing it.

I feel the last aspect is the most important in the sense that nurturing magnet would help define Lucas even further. Right now, I see a lot of people comparing him to spacies or Ness, which, while sort of invalid, isn't TOO far off. He did lose some identity in 3.0 because magnet just became another shine move, I feel like. It's not really worth it to go for shield pressure anymore; Moves like nair and fair are better for eating shields, I get the impression. Magnet is just an in-between move that is safe for you to back out of at any time.

The nerf to magnet was warranted. Just holding was already more effective shield pressure than some other characters could achieve at all. The shield damage was also a bit extensive on a move that could be spammed on shields as hard as magnet. It's still our most effective shield pressure move, but other attacks now also have their merits. Aside, magneting on shield has become even more potent since footstools go through shields. If you could multimagnet before, you can now true-combo out of an aerial magnet on shield (techskill dependent ofc). And if you'd be frame perfect in your tech-skill, mixed-up multimagnets afaik are still harder to get out of than frame-perfect spacie pressure (didn't test spacie pressure myself, though).

Magnet's also very different from a Spacie's shine. It's much slower on the startup, but has no endlag after the last hitbox, is disjointed and doesn't kill horizontal momentum. Magnet's ridiculous, but in a very different way than shines. I wouldn't complain if it also got additional shield damage back, but I also don't think it's needed and definitly not to the extent it had before.

- dair is kind of silly in how it traps people, its infinites, and its comboability into the amazing upsmash + other moves. Not sure how diverse his follow ups should or shouldn't be, though. It's probably just a problem with usmash being absurd.

I agree that the infinite is a bit dumb, but that's a future problem that has nothing to do with the current complains - just because it isn't widely used yet. DAir is a very good move currently, but there's also tons of counterplay that's just not getting utilized yet. Once people start double stick teching the third hit and SDIing the weak hits, it'll be both less good and more interesting.
For the infinite it'd be enough to decrease the knockback of the weak hits until they cause less than 19 frames of hitstun and I'm not sure why this wasn't done in the first place as it seems like the PMBR was aware of the infinite. (Alternatively a ground-only landing hitbox that has enough knockback to bounce, but that's a buff in other areas.) If it isn't removed, people will just have to learn to SDI correctly.

- OU charged smashes are REALLY good. Right now, I feel like they give too much bonus for how much you can use them. I'd be fine if it was nerfed in potency or if it was a one-time charge.

OU feels like a gimmick to me and I wouldn't opposed to it getting replaced by PK Burst or something. OU is also really not detrimental to Lucas being good. The charged smashes are more flashy than necessary, other attributes are what make Lucas good. Reworking it is more a design decision than a balance one.

- tether, while filling a major hole in Lucas' recovery game, may be a little too good; specifically, it's LONG at the ledge. But so far, Lucas seems easy enough to gimp to counteract its length. Not sure about this one. If his tether weren't good though, he'd probably have one of the worst recoveries in the game, if not the worst.

The good thing about Lucas recovery is how many options he has. If thether was nerfed to be more in line with PK-Thunder it'd make it even more interesting, so I wouldn't care to much.

Badge's shield pressure video is what made me pick up Project M and Lucas seriously.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I expect changes to Lucas in the future, since he's seen radical changes over the times from his first inclusion. I'm not terribly worried because, like 8adge said, I love Lucas' design and think the PMBR has made it work considerably. I'd like to think they'll remove the infinite, because difficulty shouldn't be taken into consideration when it comes to removing something (Infinites I feel aren't a healthy aspect in ANY fighting game whether people get hype for it or not)

All of that said, changes or not I still expect to love the character design for Lucas above all the other characters and he'll still function very well at his core should that not tear him apart (Which I know they won't)

Also, as I got better with Lucas I recognized old Magnet's shield damage was definitely too much, our shield pressure is still fine and opens up possibilities to be creatives with damaging shields.

 

[Eisen]

Wow, speak of the devil. Thanks for replying, Badge! All that detailed information is an area I definitely lack a lot in, so I appreciate the information.

Lucas is mostly fine. He may be one of the strongest characters in the game, but he's also very well designed imo and only has a few quirks that could be changed, like dash grab animation/active frames. Most of the nerfs that were thrown around in the tier list thread wouldn't change his core or do much to bring him down. If people feel better if he has another Neutral Special, a weaker UpThrow and a shorter tether - sure, go ahead, we can deal with it. As long as you don't make magnet hold vertical momentum or something, which I'm sure the PMBR won't do. The PMBR usually has been very reasonable with characters the public didn't receive well and done their best to not make them worse per se, but instead remove their over the top attributes and give them something else in return.

Yeah. This is kind of what I'm getting at. These are mostly the kinds of things I see actually needing change. I don't understand why ou upsmash should do 32% uncharged and OU dsmash does 47% if you connect the hits. However, I don't know the rules for escaping dsmash's second hit and dsmash is pretty hard to get hit by unless you're at the ledge. Then again, when you think about it, it's not a lot more ridiculous than some other moves in the game. Peach's Dsmash, Marth's tipper fsmash, Samus SWD, etc. I as well can deal with a lot of changes as long as they're not core. I can't believe I forgot to list U-throw in the OP, but oh well. The usual complaint is that "Mewtwo's is weaker", so maybe Mewtwo's just needs to be stronger? Except Mewtwo is really good without Uthrow, lol. I dunno, I think it's fine but some people will always complain.

The nerf to magnet was warranted. Just holding was already more effective shield pressure than some other characters could achieve at all. The shield damage was also a bit extensive on a move that could be spammed on shields as hard as magnet. It's still our most effective shield pressure move, but other attacks now also have their merits. Aside, magneting on shield has become even more potent since footstools go through shields. If you could multimagnet before, you can now true-combo out of an aerial magnet on shield (techskill dependent ofc). And if you'd be frame perfect in your tech-skill, mixed-up multimagnets afaik are still harder to get out of than frame-perfect spacie pressure (didn't test spacie pressure myself, though).

I agree magnet nerf was warranted, but it seems like it was far too much. I'm not trying to say it's bad or anything, though. It's a great move with a million purposes. My only reason for wanting some shield damage back is for character design reasons. No other character had the ability to do what Lucas did to shields how he did it, and it feels like the PMBR just chose to make him play like a weird spacie because nobody would want to learn how to use their shields properly. That's merely opinion and speculation on my part, but despite the reasons, I think it's true that Lucas could have taken another direction and they chose to ignore it.

You may have been able to hold magnet and it might've be easy to do eat shields with, but a slight bit of normal DI and you're out of it in a split second. I'm not sure if you can roll out of it or anything, but I should probably test that. Not to mention, shields aren't that common in the first place. I dunno, maybe I'm grasping at straws, but I find the shield pressure ability concept so fascinating. Maybe it's blinding me...

I agree that the infinite is a bit dumb, but that's a future problem that has nothing to do with the current complains - just because it isn't widely used yet. DAir is a very good move currently, but there's also tons of counterplay that's just not getting utilized yet. Once people start double stick teching the third hit and SDIing the weak hits, it'll be both less good and more interesting.
For the infinite it'd be enough to decrease the knockback of the weak hits until they cause less than 19 frames of hitstun and I'm not sure why this wasn't done in the first place as it seems like the PMBR was aware of the infinite. (Alternatively a ground-only landing hitbox that has enough knockback to bounce, but that's a buff in other areas.) If it isn't removed, people will just have to learn to SDI correctly.

This is another major problem. There's such little experience with all of Lucas' options, it's truly hard to say what should and shouldn't change, simply because it hasn't been messed with enough.

OU feels like a gimmick to me and I wouldn't opposed to it getting replaced by PK Burst or something. OU is also really not detrimental to Lucas being good. The charged smashes are more flashy than necessary, other attributes are what make Lucas good. Reworking it is more a design decision than a balance one.

Do you mean just having his neutral B be the burst move he has now, without charging it? It'd be cool, yeah. I think though that it'd be more interesting if he kept the neutral B he has now but gave ~5% damage boost to smashes instead of ~8-11% or whatever the numbers are. Also, if you could only use it once. That way, it makes it feel less gimmicky and more like DK's Punch/Samus' charge shot, but with a twist. I'd miss MAXIMUM SPARKLE being less frequent, though.

The good thing about Lucas recovery is how many options he has. If thether was nerfed to be more in line with PK-Thunder it'd make it even more interesting, so I wouldn't care to much.

It's hard to say for me, even now. Despite tether being long, it's really easy to gimp. I mean, really easy. Just hit the head when he reels it in and bat the incoming PKT2 away.

Over all I think there's a few tools/gimmicks Lucas doesn't need but is otherwise fine. I still personally wish magnet was a better shield move, though. Probably doesn't need to be 2.5b levels, but somewhere between that and 3.0 would make me happy. But again, I don't think it's needed. Like, I'm such a fan of it, I'd trade it for something else Lucas has. Double hit on Dsmash? Weaker f/d/usmash? Name your price. Baha, I'm weird though, I think. I'd like to be proven wrong there if anyone has a like/dislike for it.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

The big difference with our Magnet compared to Multi-shines is the fact that it has multi-hit properties and we have double jump cancels. By keeping the multi-hits it gives us mixups beyond what other character's shield pressure is capable of. For example, the amount of time it pulses is completely up to us and can throw other players off (Releasing immediately, jumping, and then holding Magnet, either in place or falling to the floor) The fact we have the ability to hold it and keep hitboxes out is what makes it have such utility and keeps it unique. It's for the best that simply holding it doesn't eat up opponent's shields, and we still have means of eating shields and they still utilitze Magnet.

 

[Jamwa]

If you're hit with DAir while airborn you can (A)SDI up to prevent getting carried to the ground by the weak hits or - depending on the potency of your SDI and the vertical momentum of the Lucas - even prevent the third hit altogether.
If you're grounded when the DAir connects, (A)SDI up won't do anything at all for the first two hits and nothing interesting for the third hit. Here you can force the tech until high percents via DI to the side and ASDI downwards (Control Stick to the side, C-Stick down).
In both cases you can try to escape via SDI to the side depending on the movement of the Lucas etc.

What do you mean ASDI up won't do anything? If you ASDI up during the meteor's hitlag, you would move up and become airborne, and thus be hit into the stage forcing a tech roll?
This is at high percents by the way, so that the last hit doesn't rebound you upwards off the stage and combo into an Usmash.
I understand that at low percents the knockback would not be high enough to knockdown and opponent.

I don't understand why ASDI down and DI sideways would cause a tech roll?
If you ASDI down, wouldn't knockback be calculated as if you were on the stage and the rebound would occur?
and DI to the side would just move you away after the rebound.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Go into the Training Room. By Holding down on the C-Stick and hitting the side on the Analog Stick it floors you by the third hit.

 

[Badge]

What do you mean ASDI up won't do anything? If you ASDI up during the meteor's hitlag, you would move up and become airborne, and thus be hit into the stage forcing a tech roll?
This is at high percents by the way, so that the last hit doesn't rebound you upwards off the stage and combo into an Usmash.
I understand that at low percents the knockback would not be high enough to knockdown and opponent.

I don't understand why ASDI down and DI sideways would cause a tech roll?
If you ASDI down, wouldn't knockback be calculated as if you were on the stage and the rebound would occur?
and DI to the side would just move you away after the rebound.

When the hit connects the game checks whether you are grounded or airborn (before hitlag). In the first case the "bounce" occurs (if the knockback is high enough) and you are knocked upwards as if the hit had send you at a 90 degree angle (but with more hitstun than a upwards hit of the same strength would have, the bounce graphical effects etc.). If you are airborn you are sent downwards. As the check doesn't occur after hitlag, it doesn't matter that you SDI up, because you are still knocked upwards with no opportunity to tech.

ASDI down and DI to the side is the normal double stick teching procedure for this kind of knockback. If the upwards knockback is lower than the ASDI distance you hit the ground on the first frame after hitlag. DI to the side minimizes the upwards knockback of 90 degree angle knockbacks, thus allowing ASDI down to work longer. Again, bounce/meteor is decided before hitstun, so you can treat the knockback angle as 90° in this case.

 

[Kipcom]

What does everyone here think about the fate of the Magnet stalling?
I know it makes his recovery extremely good, but am I the only one who thinks that it being gone would remove some of his shield pressure options?

http://gfycat.com/ComplexUnrealisticFallowdeer

Do you think that things such as this will no longer be possible after the next update if they decide to do something about the magnet stall (removing it)?
I think that Lucas should still "stall" in midair after a magnet, but just take away any horizontal movement when doing so.
Of course, this would take away from the magnet pull, making that no longer a thing. It's a shame, It was a great tool to use to go out there and attack those recovering.

I also don't really see the issue with his recovery, to be honest. People have found ways to punish it and it's not the same free recovery it used to appear to be. Maybe lowering it's length would be the best option since it IS somewhat long. I just want to say, his Up-B Recovery is pretty bad. At least Ness's Up-B has farther length, the bolt moves faster, and has more knockback. I don't think Lucas should have to depend on Up-B for recovery, so I hope the tether nerf isn't too extreme.

As for Lucas's Offense Up charge, I honestly expect the knockback on every OU smash attack to be severely nerfed, but that's okay as long as the attacks still remain viable as kill moves. Even a percentage nerf would be fine on them. I also expect the Offense Up charge to lose it's usage after even a successful hit on an opponent, which I can understand.

Honestly, I feel like Lucas is fine as he is and only needs a few minor changes to his overall charge and knockback, as well as his tether. Other than that, I find Lucas an already well established character and not really broken. He's a good character, really good, but I don't think that he's the best or strongest character.

In the end, I'm already sure Lucas is going to get nerfed way more than he actually needs to be, which is disappointing. I don't want his potential as a good character to be thrown away just because people see someone like Pink Fresh taking wins at Xanadu and assuming it must be because Lucas is too good of a character to beat...

 

[NeonApophis]

I might make a more detailed post later, but I just want to say that Lucas's magnet definitely does not need to do more shield damage. It already allows for the best shield pressure that I'm aware of, and it was just ridiculously broken before they changed it. I don't think anyone would be able to beat my Lucas if magnet still did so much shield damage.

 

[Eisen]

How do you guys feel about Neutral B being changed to a single-smash-only charge move?

Somebody told me it's dumb and needs to be removed entirely, and while I agree it's dumb right now, I don't agree that it needs to be removed entirely to make Lucas fair. It gives Lucas a unique style I think, like gives him this aspect that's not all that different from Samus having a charge shot and DK having DK punch. These kinds of moves are uncommon as a rule in Smash, so I think there's no good reason to remove it for being "too good" if it's just toned down a little.

I think with how fast the charge is now, it needs to be a one-time, one-smash move. Right now, you can hit Fly Guys on YI and still keep it, among other objects. It also stays out insanely long, and is HUGE in UpSmash's case. Case in point: one mechanic with this move I've been abusing lately is that if an opponent falls onto a platform above Lucas, all the Lucas has to do is sit under the general middle of the platform, read the timing on the getup/tech/roll and then just OU UpSmash accordingly. It hits ANYWHERE on the platform on any character. That's 32% right there. It's super good and put me ahead a lot in the last regional tournament I went to, despite only just learning it was an option. There's no reason at all to do anything OTHER than upsmash in that case. 32% for one move that's basically not-punishable in that situation is too good an opportunity for smart and aware players to not utilize. Something with that much power, I feel, doesn't need to be handed out like candy... even if Lucas Is a little kid. : P

But seriously, also consider that this move is DACUSable, which in turn is also something Lucas can combo into pretty easily. If just the multi-charge-on-hit effect were removed, I think a lot more people would take Lucas seriously as something other than a gimmick character. Like, I get so many negative jabs about how good OU upsmash is. And I kind of agree. Further, his Smashes are already super strong without the charge, albeit harder in my opinion to land in the case of Downsmash with its long startup.

Regardless, my point stands. Any thoughts?

If I had any coding knowledge, I'd experiment with a moveset like that... Anyone know if there's someone who might be able to do just this for us to mess with?

 

[Kipcom]

I'd had the same exact feelings that you have about Lucas's Offense Up. If they're going to nerf it (which they obviously will), I feel the best decisions would be to make it a one shot hit, similar to DK's Giant Punch or Samus's Charge Shot, as you said. It's practically the same concept, except it's a smash attack instead of a special. That would probably be the best way to tone it down without completely removing it, in my opinion. I don't want the charge completely gone, it's unique, and it's also an extremely useful move. I also think that it's going to get a % and knockback nerf. 32% for an up smash is just...huge.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Isn't usmash the only one with an actual KB increase, though? It's easy to say that Samus should expend the charge when she gets 25% and a completely new KO option, but Lucas charging up just for an extra 10ish percent and no new KO opportunities (also read: anything other than usmash) would just be a terrible trade-off, potentially making usmash even more centralizing. Even usmash would be somewhat lacking, opening up few extra KO setups and at optimal use essentially being saved every stock to end death combos 2 or so hits sooner than without (the extra 10% damage would not only be lackluster, but strategically useless).
Design-wise, there are only a few things I'd want to consider changing on OU at the moment;
-Leaving the damage of 2nd hit dsmash unaffected by OU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the second hit just about incapable of hitting with OU damage without the first connecting as well? If you miss with the first, you'll revert to normal damage on the second hit anyways.
-Cutting down on the hitbox size increase for OU usmash. Seeing as the whole point is to use the move skillfully to avoid losing a charge, the amount by which OU makes it easier to connect with could stand to see a few balance changes.

Otherwise, OU is far from the crux of Lucas's balance. I'd much rather keep it and make smaller adjustments than overhaul or get rid of it at this point.

 

[Farkle the Oddly Shaped]

@ Eisen while I acknowledge that upsmash is really good, I don't think it needs to be changed that drastically. If they do change it, I would prefer just a (slightly) smaller hitbox when using OU. The reason I say that is because, compared to Fox's upsmash, it's bigger, but it's also got much more startup lag. No one's going to change Fox's vertical killing options, so why does Lucas', which like I said is bigger but laggier, have to get nerfed?

As for the OU, I'm actually ok with making it like an exclusively finishing move where you use one smash attack and it's gone. I would; however, vouch for it not canceling upon use of OU Burst (meaning the charge only goes away for smashes, not for neutral B). I've seen some crazy stuff done with the Burst and I use it for fun myself because of how quick it comes out, but I'd like for the Lucas community to be able to explore it a little more as a move before we ask the PMBR to change it to one and done for any use of the OU.

 

[NeonApophis]

Here's a balance post I made a while ago with some additional notes:


Offense up isn't really broken. It is useful, which is the point, but the power boost is pretty reasonable given the limitations. The biggest limitation is that you can't partially charge it and then continue charging later, which makes it more difficult to get a charge. The only time you can charge it without giving up anything is after killing them off the top, since any other kill will let them get back soon enough that you have to charge it near the edge of the stage to stay safe, meaning that you accept bad stage positioning right when an invincible opponent respawns. If you went off stage for a gimp, you might not have time to charge it at all by the time you get back to the stage, so there are definite limits on charging after a kill. The other main time to charge it is when you respawn, and even though you can do that safely, you give up your invincibility to do it, and at high levels that's a pretty significant trade off.

Addition: OU up smash specifically seems relatively well balanced, since it is so slow. Yes, you can combo into it, but it still has only a little more knockback than Fox's up smash, which is much faster and does not require you to sacrifice invincibility or stage positioning at the start of each stock in order to charge it. It might be good to shrink the hitbox to the size of a normal upsmash, but I'm not sure how much that would matter.
Lucas should also retain his charge after landing a hit, since as mentioned, he cannot cancel his neutral b and save a partial charge like Samus, DK, and every other character with a charge move of this sort. If he lost the charge after one use, it would be much less useful, since it would not be worth charging during your invincibility imo. If they changed it so that he could cancel and save the charge, then I'd be fine with it only being able to hit once, since he could charge a lot more easily like other character that have one time use charges.

Up throw is fine. The only real use of up throw is guaranteeing a kill, but at a higher percent than you could have killed with something else that would work as long as you don't mess up (like dair -> up smash or dthrow -> (dacus) up smash). It would probably be more broken for Lucas to have an up throw that didn't send them so far, allowing for better combo follow ups on more characters than just the fastest fallers. Right now up throw has a very specific use, which is guaranteeing a kill on floaties at high percents, even though other things can fill that role more efficiently.

Lucas's tether is really not as good as people think. Maybe the most overrated thing in the game. It is fairly easy to edgeguard since you know that he is going to the ledge, and he has no hitbox during the tether. Lucas can cancel it to attack out of it and/or air dodge again, but it's still quite hard to get back against a good opponent. Most people are just bad at edgeguarding and/or don't know how easy it is to intercept the tether recovery.

Addition: Magnet stalling is also not really a big deal. It extends his recovery somewhat, but his maximum recovery distance is pretty average as far as PM goes. Considering how easy it is to gimp his tether and how punishable pk thunder is, I don't see any real issue with magnet stalling.
Dair is really good, but as others mentioned, you can SDI it, and a combination of good DI and not missing techs allows you to get out of most dair combos. Also, because it has a small hitbox right that doesn't extend very far in front of Lucas, it's pretty difficult to land a dair except in a situation where you could land pretty much whatever other move you wanted, and I think this need for a setup helps balance its obvious usefulness when you do manage to land a dair.

Some people probably complain about bair as well. Again, it's a pretty good move, but because the trajectory is variable and determined by the exact point at which the bair connects, it requires a lot of timing and spacing precision that isn't always available giving your positioning, which limits bair's applications. You also generally can't use it that quickly, since it comes out slowly and you often need to wait for a late part of the bair to get the angle that you want.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

List of Lucas nerfs, get rid of infinite and reduce knock back on up throw to be vertical equivalent of Ness's back throw(which should get a very minor buff). (In short up throw kills 7-10% later)That is it, there is nothing overpowering with the character. He has a tether , so people are going to rage regardless , and magnet is unique and makes for a quirky play style. Seriously you hear well pink fresh did this so Lucas must be o.p. Can someone please look up zero's fox vs pinkfresh lucas, Lucas is a good character, but can still be out pressured, out spaced and out zoned. The nerf cries have literally tried to turn the game into some sort of smash virtual fighter. The whole point of pm was to bring the viability of the character to Melee's top tier, and when that is done it must be nerfed? Nerfs are reserved for flaws in design, such as mew two, not for limiting diverse play.

 

[TheBOSS]

Neon pretty much nailed it. Lucas is a glass cannon character; high risk high reward. His punish game is insane, however he gets tossed and chaingrabbed by a large majority of the cast. I feel at this point I have a very high understanding of this character, and I truly feel lucas doesn't need any nerfs. The general consensus in Southern Cali is Lucas is somewhere between 6-10 on the tier list with meta, pitt, m2, fox, snake and mario above him (and possibly diddy) roughly speaking. I believe other than possibly slightly nerfing up throw kill, any other nerfs and he shoots further down the tier list.

 

[Eisen]

I don't think Lucas is really "broken" by any stretch, but I don't see why it's necessary that his strongest smash gets bigger with OU charge AND gains 11% damage AND doesn't disappear when used. 32% for one move I just feel is too much for a move so big, mobile, and reusable. Consider how effective his normal upsmash is without the size change.

Also, glass cannon? Lucas? He gets chaingrabbed pretty hard, and combos usually last on him a while, but his recovery is one of the best in the game, he doesn't suffer offstage too hard, and he can interrupt a lot of combos with his 3 frame invincible PK burst. Oh yeah, forgot that OU charge does that for him, too. I will say though that the burst doesn't need to make his charge go away if used and hit, unlike his smashes. I see it as a "get off me" move and it would be silly as hell if they allowed that to only be used once, given how he charges and the nature of smash. On that topic, though, why does PK burst launch so far? lmao. At high %s is basically its own kill move, which Lucas has a decent amount of.

As for recovery as a whole: I don't think he needs to be as bad offstage as Falco, but literally unless the opponent is good at gimping, I'm gonna come back with Lucas if I have my double jump and the angle of my launch isn't too low, which is usually the case. A tactic I see used only by myself so far is recovering from afar with double jump > Pk freeze > magnet glide offstage. It gives Lucas so much more space back. Combine that with his really weirdly long tether and how he can drop it into magnet and such, he has one of the best/most variable recoveries in the game and also has one of the best offenses. His offense isn't so good it requires his recovery to be awful (a la Falco), but it's a little silly how far his tether reaches combined with how well he can just stall back to the stage. His magnet also allows him to control what goes on offstage on a whim, cancelling it whenever the opponent approaches to launch a counteroffensive. Essentially, this makes his recovery game more like a second neutral with high risk/reward and prediction involved.

If he needs changes to his recovery, tether just needs to snap less far so that he relies on PKT2 some, like he should. I literally almost never have to use PKT because his tether is that good. Also, if there were a way he could still keep his momentum with a single magnet for magnet glide and b-reversal shenanigans but remove magnet stalling's effectiveness in getting him back, that'd help normalize him a little as well. I'll accept here though that I haven't played enough high level players to say for sure whether or not it's easy for him to get gimped by them/people I play are just bad at edgeguarding, because there's very possible. I should note though that I think Lucas has just as many options that he can mix up with as the opponent, probably more, which is really good for a recovery.

I know it sounds unnecessary to do all this since he's not OP, but it's also unnecessary that he has SO much good stuff that most characters lack. I think his recovery hasn't been touched since he gained the ability to choose between DJC or full-hop DJ aerial, and if I'm not mistaken, his recovery was initially balanced around him not having the option to FH aerial. I could be wrong there, but either way I often feel like Lucas gets a lot of chances plenty of characters can't even dream of getting offstage.

Tell you what though, if they fixed a few minor things first, and I got to mess with it, I'd tell you how I felt. I'd also need to play better players and flat-out just get better.

Also, I should make it clear that I do not think that OU or his recovery is the biggest problem. The things I'd propose need to be changed first would be (in order of importance):

1 - Fix dair SDI-ability/multipliers OR: Nazo suggested they made it four hits instead of three like in Brawl to make it more SDI-able, but I'm not sure that's necessary or that it'd fix things.

Notes: If anything, I think it'd just make that final hit harder to land on a grounded opponent, though that could be a good thing, as it'd require some good placement of a high-drop DJC to pop the opponent up. I'd feel a little more deserving of my upsmash if I dropped in from higher and popped an opponent up for the kill/% instead of just crossing them up and getting it relatively easily (as is now). Though this is all theory-crafting and mid-level player experience, again. I'd have to play with such changes to really vouch for them.

2 - Fix how upsmash/OU upsmash reacts to hitting a shield. If it's gonna be as good as it is, why should it slide Lucas out of range of punishment if the opponent reads his dacus and then shields? It's just dumb; he should be punished.

3. Reduce how long grab lingers. His grab should be mostly a long-reach move to extend his combos he couldn't otherwise extend. I don't like how my opponent can spot-dodge, but unless they do it near perfectly, they still get grabbed. Perhaps reduce endlag (on normal and/or dash grab) as a result. The change required wouldn't be huge though, I don't think. Maybe just a few frames so it isn't so deceptive. Then again, a LOT of grabs in this game do this. Also, something else to consider would be making the snake stay out not as long, but have the reel last long enough so it matches with the current total frames. But, again, the difference would be minor. It's more of a polish nerf than a "he doesn't need this" nerf.

4. Remove invincibility on OU burst. I don't believe in invincibility, really. Armor yes, but never invincibility.

5. Nerfing his recovery slightly in some way, perhaps by reducing tether's snap-length to, say, halfway between its longest snap in 3.02 and its normal length. Or, only allowing him to glide/keep momentum for 1 magnet in the air.

6. Give OU charge a one-time use, except in the case of OU burst/neutral B.

OR

Give OU a 5% damage decrease from current, maybe make OU upsmash a little smaller. I mean, you can freaking dacus the thing. 28% wouldn't be an unfair punish IMO, and 37% for double downsmash/32% for single would be enough for such a specific and slow move (Kinda leaning towards this one lately, honestly, for reasons stated below).

and of course, for general changes:

Assgrab mechanics fixed.
______________________________
If feel that those are his most glaring problems in the order of being too good. If those are changed, then possible future changes would include:

1- Change OU burst to not-a-kill-move. Perhaps give it a set knockback/etc.
2- Upthrow trajectory changed more akin to / instead of |, and/or perhaps changed to throw slightly higher at low percents but multiply distance less with increasing %. It'd still be a kill throw, just not the best vertical one in the game. Pretty much all his other throws lift for him, anyway, so...

BUT, I think sometimes players are a little quick to ask for too many nerfs. Yeah, tether is REALLY overrated, but I still think it's just a hair on the side of too good. Just a few changes should be enough to balance him out perfectly, depending on what got changed. The other things I've listed are just kinda minor, "why is he silly" kind of stuff. Up throw isn't as good as people think, though. On characters like Falcon and Metaknight, it doesn't kill until about 160-170 or something like that. It isn't very low, is the point.

I just don't agree that the things mentioned that Neon tried to defend are essential to keeping Lucas as a good character. High damage for one move you can use over and over doesn't put him any closer to perfect viability or whatever. It's just a tool for a specific use that it does very well. Better than it should, imo. I should say though I was convinced after reading your post, Neon, about magnet being fine where it is. Lucas' pressure is fine; it's really good, and I see why magnet shouldn't be as strong as it was. I don't agree on your point about magnet stalling. It EXTREMELY extends his recovery, in a game where every little bit closer to the stage is a blessing. I could see his recovery being poor if too much is done to it though. If his safer options (stall, tether) are nerfed, I'd suggest buffing his PKT2, maybe making it a little faster than it is right now, so it's not as easily punishable. About tether and recovery in general though: again, I'm willing to admit I could be wrong since I'm obviously not on as high of a level as you, Neon. I play some rough players, but you're still much better, so I will keep in mind your opinions on the matter. I would hate to have Lucas nerfed, then get to a higher level, and realize his recovery is awful. I know that much. Regardless, I am confident the PMBR won't be too hasty to nerf too hard, and I doubt they'll listen to my opinion yet anyway. I still have more to show for myself and all. Still, I want to throw some ideas out there and hope someone talks them out or considers them.

I think it'd be of good investment to play with some of this other stuff though. I see merits of both potential changes to OU, but it's probably the aspect I'm the most on the fence about/unsure of as far as "how to make the change" goes besides his recovery. Removing multi-charge keeps it as a strong punish move with lots of options/variability, but doesn't render it abusable. Reducing the % but allowing him to keep it on hit confirm would essentially make it a move gives him an overall buff that's not too strong, but more than makes up for whatever Lucas lost by taking the time to charge if used intelligently. I think the latter would keep it a little more in-character and make Lucas unique, but I also think removing the ability to keep the charge but leaving it hella strong would give him an interesting blend between a Samus/DK-like character with a charge kill move, and a super-pressure machine like spacies. I'd love to try either one out, but unfortunately I'm not a playtester, though I'd love to apply soon.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I don't think Lucas is really "broken" by any stretch, but I don't see why it's necessary that his strongest smash gets bigger with OU charge AND gains 11% damage AND doesn't disappear when used. 32% for one move I just feel is too much for a move so big, mobile, and reusable. Consider how effective his normal upsmash is without the size change.

Also, glass cannon? Lucas? He gets chaingrabbed pretty hard, and combos usually last on him a while, but his recovery is one of the best in the game, he doesn't suffer offstage too hard, and he can interrupt a lot of combos with his 3 frame invincible PK burst. Oh yeah, forgot that OU charge does that for him, too. I will say though that the burst doesn't need to make his charge go away if used and hit, unlike his smashes. I see it as a "get off me" move and it would be silly as hell if they allowed that to only be used once, given how he charges and the nature of smash. On that topic, though, why does PK burst launch so far? lmao. At high %s is basically its own kill move, which Lucas has a decent amount of.

As for recovery as a whole: I don't think he needs to be as bad offstage as Falco, but literally unless the opponent is good at gimping, I'm gonna come back with Lucas if I have my double jump and the angle of my launch isn't too low, which is usually the case. A tactic I see used only by myself so far is recovering from afar with double jump > Pk freeze > magnet glide offstage. It gives Lucas so much more space back. Combine that with his really weirdly long tether and how he can drop it into magnet and such, he has one of the best/most variable recoveries in the game and also has one of the best offenses. His offense isn't so good it requires his recovery to be awful (a la Falco), but it's a little silly how far his tether reaches combined with how well he can just stall back to the stage. His magnet also allows him to control what goes on offstage on a whim, cancelling it whenever the opponent approaches to launch a counteroffensive. Essentially, this makes his recovery game more like a second neutral with high risk/reward and prediction involved.

If he needs changes to his recovery, tether just needs to snap less far so that he relies on PKT2 some, like he should. I literally almost never have to use PKT because his tether is that good. Also, if there were a way he could still keep his momentum with a single magnet for magnet glide and b-reversal shenanigans but remove magnet stalling's effectiveness in getting him back, that'd help normalize him a little as well. I'll accept here though that I haven't played enough high level players to say for sure whether or not it's easy for him to get gimped by them/people I play are just bad at edgeguarding, because there's very possible. I should note though that I think Lucas has just as many options that he can mix up with as the opponent, probably more, which is really good for a recovery.

I know it sounds unnecessary to do all this since he's not OP, but it's also unnecessary that he has SO much good stuff that most characters lack. I think his recovery hasn't been touched since he gained the ability to choose between DJC or full-hop DJ aerial, and if I'm not mistaken, his recovery was initially balanced around him not having the option to FH aerial. I could be wrong there, but either way I often feel like Lucas gets a lot of chances plenty of characters can't even dream of getting offstage.

Tell you what though, if they fixed a few minor things first, and I got to mess with it, I'd tell you how I felt. I'd also need to play better players and flat-out just get better.

Also, I should make it clear that I do not think that OU or his recovery is the biggest problem. The things I'd propose need to be changed first would be (in order of importance):

1 - Fix dair SDI-ability/multipliers OR: Nazo suggested they made it four hits instead of three like in Brawl to make it more SDI-able, but I'm not sure that's necessary or that it'd fix things.

Notes: If anything, I think it'd just make that final hit harder to land on a grounded opponent, though that could be a good thing, as it'd require some good placement of a high-drop DJC to pop the opponent up. I'd feel a little more deserving of my upsmash if I dropped in from higher and popped an opponent up for the kill/% instead of just crossing them up and getting it relatively easily (as is now). Though this is all theory-crafting and mid-level player experience, again. I'd have to play with such changes to really vouch for them.

2 - Fix how upsmash/OU upsmash reacts to hitting a shield. If it's gonna be as good as it is, why should it slide Lucas out of range of punishment if the opponent reads his dacus and then shields? It's just dumb; he should be punished.

3. Reduce how long grab lingers. His grab should be mostly a long-reach move to extend his combos he couldn't otherwise extend. I don't like how my opponent can spot-dodge, but unless they do it near perfectly, they still get grabbed. Perhaps reduce endlag (on normal and/or dash grab) as a result. The change required wouldn't be huge though, I don't think. Maybe just a few frames so it isn't so deceptive. Then again, a LOT of grabs in this game do this. Also, something else to consider would be making the snake stay out not as long, but have the reel last long enough so it matches with the current total frames. But, again, the difference would be minor. It's more of a polish nerf than a "he doesn't need this" nerf.

4. Remove invincibility on OU burst. I don't believe in invincibility, really. Armor yes, but never invincibility.

5. Nerfing his recovery slightly in some way, perhaps by reducing tether's snap-length to, say, halfway between its longest snap in 3.02 and its normal length. Or, only allowing him to glide/keep momentum for 1 magnet in the air.

6. Give OU charge a one-time use, except in the case of OU burst/neutral B.

OR

Give OU a 5% damage decrease from current, maybe make OU upsmash a little smaller. I mean, you can freaking dacus the thing. 28% wouldn't be an unfair punish IMO, and 37% for double downsmash/32% for single would be enough for such a specific and slow move (Kinda leaning towards this one lately, honestly, for reasons stated below).

and of course, for general changes:

Assgrab mechanics fixed.
______________________________
If feel that those are his most glaring problems in the order of being too good. If those are changed, then possible future changes would include:

1- Change OU burst to not-a-kill-move. Perhaps give it a set knockback/etc.
2- Upthrow trajectory changed more akin to / instead of |, and/or perhaps changed to throw slightly higher at low percents but multiply distance less with increasing %. It'd still be a kill throw, just not the best vertical one in the game. Pretty much all his other throws lift for him, anyway, so...

BUT, I think sometimes players are a little quick to ask for too many nerfs. Yeah, tether is REALLY overrated, but I still think it's just a hair on the side of too good. Just a few changes should be enough to balance him out perfectly, depending on what got changed. The other things I've listed are just kinda minor, "why is he silly" kind of stuff. Up throw isn't as good as people think, though. On characters like Falcon and Metaknight, it doesn't kill until about 160-170 or something like that. It isn't very low, is the point.

I just don't agree that the things mentioned that Neon tried to defend are essential to keeping Lucas as a good character. High damage for one move you can use over and over doesn't put him any closer to perfect viability or whatever. It's just a tool for a specific use that it does very well. Better than it should, imo. I should say though I was convinced after reading your post, Neon, about magnet being fine where it is. Lucas' pressure is fine; it's really good, and I see why magnet shouldn't be as strong as it was. I don't agree on your point about magnet stalling. It EXTREMELY extends his recovery, in a game where every little bit closer to the stage is a blessing. I could see his recovery being poor if too much is done to it though. If his safer options (stall, tether) are nerfed, I'd suggest buffing his PKT2, maybe making it a little faster than it is right now, so it's not as easily punishable. About tether and recovery in general though: again, I'm willing to admit I could be wrong since I'm obviously not on as high of a level as you, Neon. I play some rough players, but you're still much better, so I will keep in mind your opinions on the matter. I would hate to have Lucas nerfed, then get to a higher level, and realize his recovery is awful. I know that much. Regardless, I am confident the PMBR won't be too hasty to nerf too hard, and I doubt they'll listen to my opinion yet anyway. I still have more to show for myself and all. Still, I want to throw some ideas out there and hope someone talks them out or considers them.

I think it'd be of good investment to play with some of this other stuff though. I see merits of both potential changes to OU, but it's probably the aspect I'm the most on the fence about/unsure of as far as "how to make the change" goes besides his recovery. Removing multi-charge keeps it as a strong punish move with lots of options/variability, but doesn't render it abusable. Reducing the % but allowing him to keep it on hit confirm would essentially make it a move gives him an overall buff that's not too strong, but more than makes up for whatever Lucas lost by taking the time to charge if used intelligently. I think the latter would keep it a little more in-character and make Lucas unique, but I also think removing the ability to keep the charge but leaving it hella strong would give him an interesting blend between a Samus/DK-like character with a charge kill move, and a super-pressure machine like spacies. I'd love to try either one out, but unfortunately I'm not a playtester, though I'd love to apply soon.

Some important notes that were lost in your nerf suggestions.
1. The nerf tether cry. The pm team has stated on multiple occasions that they can not alter the distance of a character's tether. It is the reason people felt sheik getting her side b chain tether would be busted, and why samus's tether stretches near half the length of final destination.
2. The only reason Lucas's up throw should be nerfed is because it is meant to be the vertical equivalent of Ness's back throw, yet kills between 15-35% sooner when d.I is taken into consideration.
3. The infinite has to go, ignore the difficulty, infinites are never good for a game.
4. He would be balanced with these minor tweaks as is, but a very slight reduction on the active frames of his grab would be the most they could do without harming the character. Lucas represents a point all the other characters should come close to reaching he isn't broken, and even leaving up throw the same is OK as long as Ness's back throw knock back growth is increased.
5. The charge mechanic is fine, cause he still has to connect, and is only getting +11% and minor range buff for the chance to hit with an up smash, when the length of time it takes to charge neutral b is the time it takes dk to get a 9 stage punch. How often do you hit 3 times in a row with his smash attacks? Though 47% down smash is silly.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm not a Lucas main myself, but as someone who has played a pretty good Lucas, I think he could use a few settle changes.

If you hit someone with a OU charge move, you shouldn't be able to keep the charge. I think that would make the move a bit more fair. If you miss it now, who cares, you can charge it later. If you hit it now, you did mad DMG, huge knockback and you still have it. The risk is low, while the reward is extremely high. If they wanna keep it the way it is now, OU smashes that whiff or hit shield should become extremely free to punish. I also wouldn't mind, if I wasn't sent extra far away when an OU smash hit my shield.

Recovery options could be toned down, some what. At the moment, a good Lucas, almost never uses his up B, because his tether completely overshadows it in every way. I'm not even including his other options right now. I would like to see them do something about the options and see up b more from this character.

In all honesty, characters who have an up b and a zair tether, shouldn't be able do what characters can do, that only have a tether recovery. I hope they make characters with a zair tether only able to latch the ledge once, among other things.

Might as well remove his infinite, IC had all of theirs removed. The smash community as a whole, oppose the thought.

Usmash range could be toned down a bit.(before and after OU charge)

I really don't think those would hurt Lucas at all.

 

[Spice]

As someone who has recently been working on Lucas and studying him and the good people who play him a ton, he doesn't feel OP to me. He is definitely top tier, but he is not oppressive to the game in any way. So far Pink Fresh has been one of the only ones to push him far through major tournament brackets (that I've seen anyways).

If his neutral B only worked for one smash attack that wouldn't be too bad, but right now I think they have absolutely nailed him as a character. No one is considering nerfing spacie shines, and multishines/drillshines are already some of the best and most aggressive shield pressure out there. I really hope that Lucas receives few to no changes from his current build, and nerfs are only really considered if he becomes oppressive in the meta to a decent extent.

 

[Master WGS]

His upthrow needs toned down, and his tether grab grabs/is out for too long. I'm a Lucas main and fully believe those are the only two things that are a little over the top. Not CRAZY over the top, but enough I think it merits changing.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I like how chill this thread is, and how open to change the lucas mains are, even though most of the changes suggested aren't too drastic. The main things lucas has that would seem too much are the OU keeping the charge after hit, the active frames on his grab, and the dair infinite, with potentially other aspects of the dair. Other than that lucas looks pretty good, I always found him pretty interesting.

 

[Burnsy]

Magnet stall should just work like capes and Marth's side-b. The first one behaves normally but all subsequent aerial magnets won't stall him in the air. Removing the stalling effect entirely or only removing horizontal momentum are terrible ideas for what they would do to the characters already established combo/approach/bait games.

 

[Spice]

Magnet stall should just work like capes and Marth's side-b. The first one behaves normally but all subsequent aerial magnets won't stall him in the air. Removing the stalling effect entirely or only removing horizontal momentum are terrible ideas for what they would do to the characters already established combo/approach/bait games.

Is the ability to stall multiple times in the air really that bad? It doesn't seem oppressive, and in fact the only complaint about a gimmicky mechanic I hear about in regards to Lucas is the fact that his neutral B charge lasts as long as you keep getting hits. If they removed that aspect I don't think any Lucas mains would be too upset, since it is not at all important to his game, and might make him a tad more balanced.

In terms of things that NEED to be nerfed though, Lucas has yet to make even top 3 at a major P:M event (that I have noticed, someone point out one if I am wrong please). He is not at all oppressive to the meta currently. I think nerfing before a character even becomes an issue is kind of silly. Just my two cents.

 

[drummaniac28]

Magnet stall should just work like capes and Marth's side-b. The first one behaves normally but all subsequent aerial magnets won't stall him in the air. Removing the stalling effect entirely or only removing horizontal momentum are terrible ideas for what they would do to the characters already established combo/approach/bait games.

Lucas main here; I think this is actually really fair. Magnet stalling makes it super easy to get close enough to a stage that airdodge -> tether will almost always be able to grab the ledge, hence people complaining about the tether being too long. If Lucas could only do it once, there would most likely be more occasions where the player would have to opt to use PKT to get back, which I feel has a lot of mindgames and skill associated with it. PKT sort of reminds me of Fox's up-B, as there are so many angles and options with PKT that can keep the person edgeguarding guessing. Lucas can go straight at the stage, recover high, sweetspot the ledge, etc. But while Lucas has these options, it is up to the player to be skilled enough to get the angles required to play the mindgames.

That in my opinion would be an example of an almost, if not perfectly designed recovery. When Lucas is off-stage, the advantage is clearly with the person edgeguarding, as Lucas' recovery is fairly easy to gimp, however if the Lucas player is skilled enough to perform the recovery correctly, he has options that can keep the person edgeguarding guessing. Currently, Lucas' best option is clearly to always try to tether, causing the edgeguarding mindgames to focused around that. You can either try and airdodge -> tether as fast as possible to catch the opponent off guard, or stall it out to make them whiff an aerial and then recovering, among other things. I would love to see PKT be more incorporated into Lucas' recovery as I think it has a lot of potential for mindgames that aren't currently being utilized. Maybe in its current state it's too easy to gimp, so maybe making PKT1 or 2 faster could remedy this, but I'm not 100% sure. All I know is that I would welcome a change that would make PKT a larger part of Lucas' recovery.

 

[Badge]

Magnet stall should just work like capes and Marth's side-b. The first one behaves normally but all subsequent aerial magnets won't stall him in the air. Removing the stalling effect entirely or only removing horizontal momentum are terrible ideas for what they would do to the characters already established combo/approach/bait games.

Agreed. Ideally the non-stalling magnets should be DJC-able to still allow proper multi-magnets and keep consistency with the rest of his aerial moveset (afaik the aerial DJC coding doesn't apply to specials, so this has to be added seperately). I can get behind nerfing magnet for recovery as long as you don't destroy the rest of Lucas' magnet game.

In terms of things that NEED to be nerfed though, Lucas has yet to make even top 3 at a major P:M event (that I have noticed, someone point out one if I am wrong please). He is not at all oppressive to the meta currently. I think nerfing before a character even becomes an issue is kind of silly. Just my two cents.

Nerfs at this point are less about balancing Lucas and more about perfecting his design. His recovery, UpThrow-strength, charged smashes or the active frames on grabs may not be overpowered, but they aren't integral to Lucas' game while simultaneously being stuff that many people complain about, so nerfing them for the sake of making the character less obviously ridiculous and more fun to play against/interesting to play as is a legitimate reason.

That aside, I think Lucas currently is at a perfect power level, but he'd probably still be very good even with all of the above nerfed. It'd just take some time again until the character's meta is developed enough. On the other hand, e.g. reworking NeutralB to be less of a gimmick (and I consider the whole idea of OU a gimmick on a character like Lucas, but that may be just me) would probably be a buff in the long run, i.e. improving his design may also make him better in some areas.

and multishines/drillshines are already some of the best and most aggressive shield pressure out there..

If spacie shield pressure was too good, magnet would be absolutely broken. Shine pressure is a bit easier than, but barely in the same league as proper magnet shield pressure. True comboing into an infinite, kill moves or a combo off of a forward moving magnet that hits shield should be pretty good once people start using it.

If they wanna keep it the way it is now, OU smashes that whiff or hit shield should become extremely free to punish. I also wouldn't mind, if I wasn't sent extra far away when an OU smash hit my shield.

Lucas' smashes are extremely free to punish on whiff. Up-Smash has 40 frames cooldown, and F-Smash still 30 (which is about the same as Bowser's FSmash). The only one that's not a guaranteed punish is DSmash, but it's really slow with not that great of a hitbox. If the smash hits your shield, the distance it creates makes punishing a lot harder, but Lucas also looses the charge, so you won the exchange if you just manage to reset to neutral.

All I know is that I would welcome a change that would make PKT a larger part of Lucas' recovery.

PKT is super fun to recover with, that much is clear.

 

[Spice]

I like his current neutral B, it doesn't feel like a gimmick to me. The ability to keep charge with connected hits is a bit absurd, I think anyone who is even half decent with Lucas wouldn't mind if that was taken away though.

I really am hoping tether does not get nerfed, as without it Lucas would easily have among the worst recoveries in the game.

 

[TheBOSS]

It's funny to see the complaints about lucas and talk of him being OP when he's winning how often? Exactly...he's not winning tournies often at all. This character is somewhere between 6-10 on the tier list at best. He should definitely retain his neutral b charge after connecting a hit with it. If you take that away the charge becomes useless as basically the only time to get a charge is during invincibility on a new stock. Leave his magnet alone, it was already nerfed! For those of you complaining about lucas's recovery you're just noobs. I can name at least 8-10 characters with better recoveries, plus, Lucas can get gimped super easily. Characters that are proficient at over the ledge battling or characters with multiple jumps can dominate lucas once over the ledge (meta, m2, kirby, d3, ect). As for his dair infinite...show me someone abusing it and then i'll agree to change his dair at all. The only merited nerf I can agree with is raising the percentage on upthrow kill by around 8/9% or so.

The real truth is, kids getting salty about lucas because they can't DI properly and hit their techs and don't have enough mind games to figure out how to punish his recovery so they say NERF him. Learn to adapt.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Just because a character doesn't win tournaments often (although there are several Lucas players with great placings) doesn't mean there aren't grounds for the character being changed. Outside of balance it's important for a characters DESIGN to be fluid and as well handled as possible. Also, winning tournaments isn't the only criteria for a change/nerf/buff, for example, Magnet lost the ability to Absorb and be jumped out of for Ness (and Lucas too I think?) and neither were winning things.

It's important to take in a variety of criteria in regards to changing a character. I also find it funny that you would agree with what is possibly the silliest change, especially considering 8/9% is just a single hit difference.

 

[TheBOSS]

I agree with your logic; tournament placings wasn't the main point of my post. My personal opinion on lucas is leave him alone completely but I could see some sense in nerfing his up throw kill slightly to appease the lucas hate.

I have been to countless tournaments for both melee and pm over the span of 8 years or so where i can tell you every bit of % matters, every hit can make or break a victory or loss.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

And I'm not disagreeing with that, so if such a small number would appease some people (Which... I don't actually see happening. I get the feeling people don't want it to kill for a long time) then by all means. It's just for a character like Lucas, that is fairly insignificant.

 

[Master WGS]

My thought is he in no way NEEDS the kill-throw, and that's why it should be altered. Killing is not something Lucas has trouble with otherwise at all. It's just an easy route for bad players.

 

[Spice]

My thought is he in no way NEEDS the kill-throw, and that's why it should be altered. Killing is not something Lucas has trouble with otherwise at all. It's just an easy route for bad players.

Mario doesn't have trouble with killing. Like literally half his moves are relatively good and safe kill options. And his fireballs do 8% damage. Having a bunch of kill options isn't a bad thing, and up throw kills only really work well on certain maps. Mewtwo also has a better upthrow kill and he has plenty of kill options too.

If it got neutered I wouldn't mind, but like TheBOSS said above, I really don't see the need for much in terms of changes for Lucas. He is not an oppressive character, not in the competitive environment and not to newbie players either (good luck just picking him up as your first character out of the blue).

In general I think nerfs are mostly unnecessary unless there is a universally agreed upon problem, and it should mostly be minor tweaks.

 

[Kipcom]

Honestly, the complaints about Lucas's up throw kill are kinda petty, especially when a lot of characters have a throw kill anyway (Mario, Ness, Peach, Roy, Diddy, Mewtwo, Lucario and Bowser's command grabs).

I mean, even if they nerf it, whatever, but so many people make a big deal out of something that a handful of characters also have... but I hardly ever see them receive complaints.
But I guess if we're talking about what he needs, then no, he doesn't need the kill throw. Then again, no characters need one in PM.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

My thought is he in no way NEEDS the kill-throw, and that's why it should be altered. Killing is not something Lucas has trouble with otherwise at all. It's just an easy route for bad players.

Uhhhh... Killing isn't difficult no matter what you choose as Lucas. Lucas doesn't just get grabs for free, either, haha. The confirms into grab (PK Freeze, DThrow I guess) confirm into other kills too. Honestly, something like Footstool > DJC Bair is easier than a grab kill considering Footstool can't be blocked either but doesn't have a cooldown window if you miss it. I'm surprised more people don't complain about his DThrow, but since UThrow outright kills I guess it's easier to complain about...

 

[Lukingordex]

I see no reason to nerf Lucas, he has exploitable weaknesses that actually shut him down (like the Link match up irc)

People who complain about Lucas are almost always ones who don't know how to play the matchup correctly.

 

[Spice]

I see no reason to nerf Lucas, he has exploitable weaknesses that actually shut him down (like the Link match up irc)

People who complain about Lucas are almost always ones who don't know how to play the matchup correctly.

This is true of most matchups.

"Oh I keep dying from this thing that isn't easy to pull off and requires a proper set up but I don't want to learn how to deal with it so plz nerf"

The only time I see nerfs being reasonable is when a character is oppressive to a meta game (think Meta Knight in Brawl) or if a strategy is extremely effective, safe, and oppressive and in no way difficult (like spamming fireballs with Mario)

 

[Jacob29]

I was thinking.

Does Lucas honestly need his up-throw to kill at all?

He has plenty other ways of killing people.

D-Air offstage, B-air, up-smash. Does he truly need a guaranteed tether grab kill throw? Just seems like it's icing on the cake.