Things that you EXPECT will be in Smash in the future but dread/don't want

[Quillion]

Expectations =/= wants, so let's have a thread about that concept.

• Link being semi-reworked to reflect the most recent game again (at least with no real alternative for the "older" Links).
• Another starter Pokémon (they get the bulk of marketing focus nowadays, but there's WAY more to the franchise than just them). Don't care either way about what gen they come from.
• Another Fire Emblem sword lord (same as above, but for Fire Emblem).
• Another Xenoblade "numbered series" protagonist (same as above, but for Xenoblade and the current "early stage" content gives Xenoblade room to nip the issue in the bud).
• Another unnecessarily different Classic Mode (Melee's was perfect; just go back to that! Ultimate's is a good idea, but maybe add a few little cutscenes here and there and make it a separate "Arcade Mode" if anything).
• Continued focus on ported/recreated stages (I would love to see iterations of "existing" settings with new stage layouts, tbh).

That's all I can think of; what say you guys?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

There's a few things that come to mind, but if I were to try and list them in a similar manner to the OP...

• The continuation of "hype" as a big driving factor for the series' marketing, to the detriment of the series' identity. This is possibly a little specific; I'm not against the inclusion of "fan favourites" or "big third parties" by any means, but I think the movement toward cultivating a culture of "hype" around the series both hurts the fanbase around it by driving up toxicity, while also kind of eating away at unique elements of the series' vibe as a whole.
  
  
• A continued lack of variety in general stage "themes", with a lot of "grass/plains" type stages while other general themes and vibes go really underexplored by comparison. Yes, "plains" type stages tend to be the first levels in a lot of the games being represented, but at the same time, there's so much more stuff to pull from from the majority of games getting stages in the first place.
  
  
• Content from third-party companies continuing to be almost entirely limited to just the franchises represented with playable characters, with little to no other stuff beyond that in things like stages or music. (Spirit events and Mii costumes are neat and all, but why stop there?) When you look at the ridiculously extensive library of companies like SEGA, Bandai-Namco or Capcom, it's a little weird that the amount of stuff from those companies is so limited; I suppose the Pac-Man franchise is loosely kind of "Retro Namco" themed and SNK's music list is pretty extensive, but those are massive outliers.
  
  
• On a loosely related note; the continued practice of all DLC essentially boiling down to either the character packs in season passes or purely cosmetic stuff like Spirit Events. You could never really get more unorthodox stages akin to Sm4sh's Miiverse or Super Mario Maker because of the format - having to include a dedicated "pack" - and I also think it's another driving factor behind the whole "hype" thing. Sure, having themed packages would be cool on its own, but being so limited to specifically one character, one stage, a Spirit Board of no more than 16 Spirits and a music list is kind of limiting to what stuff you could actually include otherwise.

I suppose I have other things, but these come to mind as main points.

 

[Quillion]

The continuation of "hype" as a big driving factor for the series' marketing, to the detriment of the series' identity. This is possibly a little specific; I'm not against the inclusion of "fan favourites" or "big third parties" by any means, but I think the movement toward cultivating a culture of "hype" around the series both hurts the fanbase around it by driving up toxicity, while also kind of eating away at unique elements of the series' vibe as a whole.

TBF, it IS a crossover. Hype of several different IPs coming together is too ingrained in the nature of a crossover, not necessarily Smash's gameplay function as a platform fighter.

Smash probably just needs spin-offs of its own right (to explore different avenues with the crossover premise) instead of acting as a sole "unified spin-off" to everything.

A continued lack of variety in general stage "themes", with a lot of "grass/plains" type stages while other general themes and vibes go really underexplored by comparison. Yes, "plains" type stages tend to be the first levels in a lot of the games being represented, but at the same time, there's so much more stuff to pull from from the majority of games getting stages in the first place.

I'm torn on that one. The "green hill zones" of the various source series are usually the ones that appear in all the marketing BECAUSE it's the first level. Also, most games rely on the same biomes anyway: green hills, deserts, seaside, forests/jungles, icy mountains, volcanoes, the sky, then the villain lair. It's a tough question to solve IMO. I'd love to see more variety, dgmw, but I think a lot of it is just a subset of a wider problem too.

Content from third-party companies continuing to be almost entirely limited to just the franchises represented with playable characters, with little to no other stuff beyond that in things like stages or music. (Spirit events and Mii costumes are neat and all, but why stop there?) When you look at the ridiculously extensive library of companies like SEGA, Bandai-Namco or Capcom, it's a little weird that the amount of stuff from those companies is so limited; I suppose the Pac-Man franchise is loosely kind of "Retro Namco" themed and SNK's music list is pretty extensive, but those are massive outliers.

Eh, these video game companies are getting increasingly worse and worse about being stingy with their IPs (like Nintendo). So I don't think Sora Ltd. has much control on that front.

On a loosely related note; the continued practice of all DLC essentially boiling down to either the character packs in season passes or purely cosmetic stuff like Spirit Events. You could never really get more unorthodox stages akin to Sm4sh's Miiverse or Super Mario Maker because of the format - having to include a dedicated "pack" - and I also think it's another driving factor behind the whole "hype" thing. Sure, having themed packages would be cool on its own, but being so limited to specifically one character, one stage, a Spirit Board of no more than 16 Spirits and a music list is kind of limiting to what stuff you could actually include otherwise.

Stages could probably be its own pack if anything.

Ooh! Maybe it could be a solution to the "iconic green hills"/"same biomes" problem I talked about earlier: Like they can have a "Volcano Stage Pack" or "Seaside Pack" or "Villain Lair Pack".

Overall though, these are some good and valid concerns.

 

[fogbadge]

Hmm there's a few characters I don't want but I'll go with some other things

• this one may just be a me thing but I'd hate if the villager stuck with his current look. I'd like him made taller like in his home series.
• I agree with knee that we may be stuck with more grassy stages
• The music variety not increasing much and we get yet more remixes from the same old games
• more intrusive stage bosses

 

[Quillion]

this one may just be a me thing but I'd hate if the villager stuck with his current look. I'd like him made taller like in his home series.

Agreed; I think their animations would look a lot better that way.

more intrusive stage bosses

IKR? Might as well just make those guys bosses for other modes.

 

[SnakeFighter64]

Fortnite content

 

[Quillion]

I just remembered one: another early console release.

Like seriously, I know Smash being an early console release is tradition at this point, but why celebrate the stuff on a console that's on the way out when the celebration is on a new console?

 

[Perkilator]

The only thing I outright dread going into the next Smash is more BS in the speculation scene, if the state of it as of Ultimate is anything to go by. Otherwise, here are things I expect for the next Smash generally:

• A considerable amount of cuts, and with it:
  • More room for more newcomers in the base roster
  • Better single-player content
  • More changes afforded to veteran movesets
  • More new stages in the base game
• Launching early in the next console’s life cycle (two years in at the latest)
• A graphical upgrade from Ultimate
• New gameplay mechanics
• A variety of newcomers—ranging from fan favorites to shill picks to left field picks
• An already-represented franchise getting the glow-up of the century in terms of meaningful representation
• More Switch era representation in general
• Memes. Lots of memes.
• Characters who couldn’t make it as fighters in the base game (be they veterans or newcomers) get a second chance via DLC
• Generally higher production values, thanks to Ultimate’s success
• A minimum of 8 alts per character
• Only a handful of 3rd party newcomers in the base roster, with more to come as DLC

…Annnnd I just realized I went this whole post without making a Metroid Dread pun.

 

[Quillion]

On a moveset-design-philosophy-wide scale, I expect but dread the continued focus on trying to make as much moves and mechanics as possible be a "reference" as opposed to a healthy mix of picking the best, most iconic elements to represent while padding them out with made-up stuff where necessary.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Character trailers, bad gameplay, fan demand picks, and the continuation of the obnoxious edgy/prestigeous tone that's been a tumor on this series since Melee.

I also think EIH again and early-series character reworks are super likely as well, but not as likely as those others thankfully, just on virtue of being status quo changes.

I also second numbered protags and everything in KneeOfJustice's post

 

[Oracle Link]

Some stuff i expect:

* Potentially All the young Links are gone and no replacements are added! I hope it doesnt happen cause a smol link whoever it is perfectly pairs up with adult link!

*No Cross game costumes for the zelda characters if i had to guess everyone (of the main trio) is gonna get a costume i just hope it isnt limited to Champion and wild link, Champion and zonai Zelda and t5he two ganondorf forms!

* Sakurai Bias for the kirby series

* Atleast 2 non esantial picks for mario, pokemon or fire emblem (i would be fine with toad but come on we dont need another starter)

*Letting the musicians "decide" Again! Meaning we get 10 Konami remixes and 1 Kirby or zelda one

*Awful English localization choices (gallem and darkhon for example)

*Sans being chosen as the undertale rep

* heavy 3d Zelda focus for the 5th time (the only exception was 3ds a bit)

*no Mirror World Costumes for kirby and dedede

and the continuation of the obnoxious edgy/prestigeous tone that's been a tumor on this series since Melee.

THIS! I hate how self serious smash is i get that you want some epicness But sakurai killed of the entire smash cast 3 Times Already (By TAbuu, By Kyra and in the sora trailer) 3 TIMES
They couldve had all the characters wave us of in the sora trailer but no have them die and have a third party character save them which also happend twice!
Also smash has super ugly washed out colours, Consistently features these Orchestral choir themes it doesnt have to be silly but how about something groovy or rock or something calm similar to cha la head chala from db!

I think the type of tone meele and brawl had was fine for those games but even 4 had that tone friggin 4 You know the game WITHOUT a story mode?
Like Sonic gets called edgy but sonic most of the time earns its serious moments and varies the main themes compsition style it also has a lot of goofy stuff to balance the epicness! The only goofy stuf in smash is gameplay related and a couple of little jokes in the cutscenes but theres barely any leviaty!

Sure have the game end by fighting god but learn from kirby sakurai and have it start in a beautiful colorful area with a goofy boss (which couldve worked in brawl but they somehow tried to make petey more serious)

 

[Opossum]

*Awful English localization choices (gallem and darkhon for example)

You could have picked one of the many instances of Treehouse actually botching something, like the trophy descriptions in 4, and you chose as your example...a case where they actually did a good job?

The pun for Galeem's Japanese name wouldn't have worked in English so he gets a new light-related name, and Dharkon is like, an almost objective improvement over Darz.

 

[Quillion]

* Potentially All the young Links are gone and no replacements are added! I hope it doesnt happen cause a smol link whoever it is perfectly pairs up with adult link!

As much as I dislike "random references" animation sets in movesets, I think at least Toon Link could make it work by virtue of his cartoony design. I'd still want his move functions to remain mostly the same though.

At least that's a reason at least to keep TL around.

*No Cross game costumes for the zelda characters if i had to guess everyone (of the main trio) is gonna get a costume i just hope it isnt limited to Champion and wild link, Champion and zonai Zelda and t5he two ganondorf forms!

I'm really hoping they take a certain approach that allows for those kinds of alts for the Zelda characters:

• Make the hitboxes ONLY part of a 2D plane. The models and animations are 3D, but the hitboxes themselves are 2D. Kirby Triple Deluxe itself does this trick. This would allow nicely shared hitboxes between the lefty and righty Links.
• For the Zeldas, have their idles, taunts, and endposes change with their alts. OoT and TP Zelda get the more "serene" animations, while ALttP, SS, and Wild Saga Zelda get the more "lively" animations.

Kinda a pipe dream, but we'll see.

* Sakurai Bias for the kirby series

Remember what KneeOfJustice99 said about "non-grassy stages" though:

A continued lack of variety in general stage "themes", with a lot of "grass/plains" type stages while other general themes and vibes go really underexplored by comparison. Yes, "plains" type stages tend to be the first levels in a lot of the games being represented, but at the same time, there's so much more stuff to pull from from the majority of games getting stages in the first place.

I honestly think Kirby suffers from the problem of its "most suitable" stages just being generic "green hill zones" anyway, so they might as well go for the "green hill zones" of the earlier games instead of the later ones.

* Atleast 2 non esantial picks for mario, pokemon or fire emblem (i would be fine with toad but come on we dont need another starter)

Oddly enough that's on opposite ends. I dread that Mario gets minor spin-off characters just for "Mario quota" while Pokémon and Fire Emblem get starter and sword lord respectively for similar.

*Sans being chosen as the undertale rep

TBH, I think literally anyone in Deltarune is more suitable for the Undertale series than anyone in the original game.

* heavy 3d Zelda focus for the 5th time (the only exception was 3ds a bit)

All we really need on that front are stages, let's be real.

and the continuation of the obnoxious edgy/prestigeous tone that's been a tumor on this series since Melee.

THIS! I hate how self serious smash is i get that you want some epicness

Hmm, maybe they should model the tone more after Mario Strikers, where the edginess is done in a self-aware manner that celebrates the ridiculousness of it all.
----
I guess I'll also say I expect Spirits to become the replacement for trophies from now on.

But come on; I don't mind the 2D PNG nature of them, but at least they could do more to make them seem more like real objects. I still suggest designing them to be more like "collector's cards". Spirit Cards if you will.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I honestly think Kirby suffers from the problem of its "most suitable" stages just being generic "green hill zones" anyway, so they might as well go for the "green hill zones" of the earlier games instead of the later ones.

It's a weird one in that there's probably plenty of stages from the series that'd be really cool that aren't just "green hills" - one that springs to my mind being Butter Building - but a lot of the more iconic Kirby locations tend to be variations on green hills anyways, and even though there's like four Green Greens variants it's ironically a better representation of the Kirby series than anyone probably realised

That being said, I still think Melee's decision to pull the Fountain of Dreams from Kirby's Adventure of all things was really cool. In fact, that kind of thing would be the opposite to this thread's topic in my mind; more stages pulling from seemingly unorthodox places, like Temple from Zelda II or whatnot.

Hmm, maybe they should model the tone more after Mario Strikers, where the edginess is done in a self-aware manner that celebrates the ridiculousness of it all.

I think this would be really cool. I've always had a love for the "pro-wrestling" aesthetic going on in the first game, and while it's a little bit underbaked there, I'd love to see a return to that; because I think it's a clever way to maintain that "celebratory event" feeling while also not taking things too seriously. Ultimate's a bit disappointing in the theming regard because I think it takes itself too seriously; it's all well and good trying to capture a mix between an office block and a highly-rated JRPG but doing so in the game that has Steve and the Ice Climbers kind of misses the point.

I guess I'll also say I expect Spirits to become the replacement for trophies from now on.

But come on; I don't mind the 2D PNG nature of them, but at least they could do more to make them seem more like real objects. I still suggest designing them to be more like "collector's cards". Spirit Cards if you will.

I love the idea of making them more card-like, honestly. Feels like a really good callback to Nintendo's roots, almost.

 

[Quillion]

That being said, I still think Melee's decision to pull the Fountain of Dreams from Kirby's Adventure of all things was really cool. In fact, that kind of thing would be the opposite to this thread's topic in my mind; more stages pulling from seemingly unorthodox places, like Temple from Zelda II or whatnot.

Admittedly, I do think that with all the "conventional" stages already in the game, they do have a lot more room to bring in more "unorthodox" stages.

I can actually accept the continued focus on ported/recreated stages if they actually take advantage of that room instead of just the same ol', same ol' green hill zones.

I think this would be really cool. I've always had a love for the "pro-wrestling" aesthetic going on in the first game, and while it's a little bit underbaked there, I'd love to see a return to that; because I think it's a clever way to maintain that "celebratory event" feeling while also not taking things too seriously. Ultimate's a bit disappointing in the theming regard because I think it takes itself too seriously; it's all well and good trying to capture a mix between an office block and a highly-rated JRPG but doing so in the game that has Steve and the Ice Climbers kind of misses the point.

Either "pro-wrestling", "crazy sports anime" (like Mario Strikers), or heck, even Silver Age/neo-Silver Age comic book (like Marvel vs Capcom 3) would all be great ways of capturing "epic ridiculousness" that leaves room for both painful ring-out combat and lighthearted competition.

I love the idea of making them more card-like, honestly. Feels like a really good callback to Nintendo's roots, almost.

Oh yeah, the Hanafuda right? Though I think Nintendo did license trading cards for a few Wii games in the past.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

That being said, I still think Melee's decision to pull the Fountain of Dreams from Kirby's Adventure of all things was really cool. In fact, that kind of thing would be the opposite to this thread's topic in my mind; more stages pulling from seemingly unorthodox places, like Temple from Zelda II or whatnot.

I never realy thought about it, but huh, yeah, FOD is kind of a strange pull - it only shows up in a joke fake-out boss, so it's kind of bizarre from a strictly "let's represent the game well" perspective.

 

[Quillion]

I never realy thought about it, but huh, yeah, FOD is kind of a strange pull - it only shows up in a joke fake-out boss, so it's kind of bizarre from a strictly "let's represent the game well" perspective.

It was in Super Star too, though Popstar's FOD only appeared briefly in the intro while you have to visit the FODs of all of Popstar's "moons".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I never realy thought about it, but huh, yeah, FOD is kind of a strange pull - it only shows up in a joke fake-out boss, so it's kind of bizarre from a strictly "let's represent the game well" perspective.

It's important to the plot so think it's a great choice.

 

[Quillion]

It's important to the plot so think it's a great choice.

TBF, 64 and Melee were more about "important to single game (usually most recent)" and not really "important to source series as whole" (a shift that Brawl made and stuck ever since).

And hey, at least for 64 and Melee, the "important to single game" paradigm made a fair bit of sense, considering Mario only took its current form 16 years prior to Melee (in SMB1).

Nowadays... I'll say the fact that Smash juggles so many franchises now and consequentially must focus on the most iconic/surface/series-wide elements of each source is showing its limits. So I don't think we'll really get another "FOD" anymore (discounting that FOD has now become a recurring location in Kirby side games).

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It's important to the plot so think it's a great choice.

I dunno how familiar you are with me, but I have a very strong sentiment that Smash should pull from smaller and unexpected elements of games, with more of a "this is cool" mentality rather than "this is important/popular" - most of my 1P most wanteds are recurring bit players with small-if-existant fandoms (Rambi, Stork, Goomba), most popular 3P requests I have a personal side character preferance (Ripper Roo/Dingodile, Mettaton, King Dice), I tend to lament just how importance centric and objective Smash's roster mentality is (especially in regards to Pokemon), and I've often advocated for repping content like commercials; US-exclusives; and cancelled games - "strange pull" and "bizarre" are being used here as unambigious complements. I feel like Kirby, being a platformer, is ultimately a "gameplay game" first, and the majority of the run-time is in naturalistic environments, so if I was to be grassy-plains-pilled and make a stage roster based on objectives and what best represents the game/series, FOD would not come up to me.

 

[Quillion]

I dunno how familiar you are with me

See, I know you've made a name on the NASB and profile post sides of this site.

...but you sound really narcissistic when you say something like that jsyk.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

See, I know you've made a name on the NASB and profile post sides of this site.

...but you sound really narcissistic when you say something like that jsyk.

Oh yeah, that's a REALLY good point lmao. It was not supposed to come off that way, if anything I meant it somewhat self-deprecatingly, but I do see it. I tend to forget there's parts of this site other than profile posts; unpopular-opinion industrial complex; and NASB. I'll try to avoid that kind of implication in future.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Nintendo trying to do their own thing with competitive mechanics in Smash Bros.

It's literally this.

"Oh you like airdodges that go in a certain direction? Cool! Here's an 'airdodge' that makes your character fall like a rock and you become inactionable for seven years."

 

[Quillion]

Oh yeah, that's a REALLY good point lmao. It was not supposed to come off that way, if anything I meant it somewhat self-deprecatingly, but I do see it. I tend to forget there's parts of this site other than profile posts; unpopular-opinion industrial complex; and NASB. I'll try to avoid that kind of implication in future.

Yeah... I guess with massive concerns over the internet about how arrogant people act on the internet, I don't think being self-deprecating about being arrogant is going to work at this current moment.

But I just wanna say it's good that you're open to the criticism on your tone. (I really don't like to use emojis, but I think this is warranted)

Nintendo trying to do their own thing with competitive mechanics in Smash Bros.

Meh, Nintendo's really hands-off on Smash on a gameplay-functional level. I doubt the current airdodge will change.

That said though, if Smash is going to keep with its current "short combo at most" paradigm, the Smash team could stand to outright replace all the i-frame dodges. They just make a slow, deliberate game unnecessarily so.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Yeah... I guess with massive concerns over the internet about how arrogant people act on the internet, I don't think being self-deprecating about being arrogant is going to work at this current moment.

That was less a play on "oh, I'm so arrogant" and more just a play on how in some threads I'm the "Oh ****... this guy again" guy, hard to communicate tone online though.

 

[UserKev]

* More Grassy/plains stages is my biggest pet peeve. It's time to move on to something else.

* Another Menu aesthetic that has no charm or originality. This one is scary o_o

* Stage Builder. I'm sorry. This is the biggest waste of time to me.

 

[Janx_uwu]

* Stage Builder. I'm sorry. This is the biggest waste of time to me.

Stage builder doesn't have to be boring, they just haven't figured it out yet.

Like, is it that hard to just do Mario Maker but for smash bros?

It's cool that the drawing function allows some talented people to make stunning depictions of a Waluigi in the nude, but for everyone else it means uneven platforms and unappealing yarn-looking stages.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Stage builder is good, but very poorly executed. The newer incarnations feel gimmicky rather than practical, and the Brawl version was hilariously limited, especially but not exclusively aesthetically. Wii U is absolutely the worst version though, if only because of how little you could actually visually depict with it compared to how much content was lost from Brawl's. I think a more restricted Mario Maker-style stage builder would benefit from placing hazards from other stages, which could maybe make up for the visual customisation being lost. Maybe you could put DK level assets on the second phase of Reset Bomb's background and call it Bramble Blast or something, I dunno.

 

[UserKev]

I already addressed this topic regarding Stage Builder and I'm not going to waste my energy writing an essay how it could work. Let Stage Builder exist as Stage Editor.

Peach's Castle at night, give us power over specific hazards like Bullet Bill on Kirby Dreamland or Flying Man on Saffron City.

 

[Oracle Link]

I already addressed this topic regarding Stage Builder and I'm not going to waste my energy writing an essay how it could work. Let Stage Builder exist as Stage Editor.

Peach's Castle at night, give us power over specific hazards like Bullet Bill on Kirby Dreamland or Flying Man on Saffron City.

On that point i wanna be able to fight and place enemys on stages! (octorok supremacy)

 

[Quillion]

* More Grassy/plains stages is my biggest pet peeve. It's time to move on to something else.

Again, how are we supposed to move past the fact that "green hill zones" are the most marketed settings in video games?

* Another Menu aesthetic that has no charm or originality. This one is scary o_o

I at least like how the "signature Sakurai menu" is done in Brawl, and even Smash 4 (even if the latter is poorly organized).

In hindsight, Ultimate's weird tablet/smartphone-style iteration of the "Sakurai menu" is too oversimplified.

* Stage Builder. I'm sorry. This is the biggest waste of time to me.

Stage builder doesn't have to be boring, they just haven't figured it out yet.

Stage builder is good, but very poorly executed. The newer incarnations feel gimmicky rather than practical, and the Brawl version was hilariously limited,

The weird thing is that all they really need to do to improve the Stage Builder at this point is to combine and improve stuff from Brawl and Ultimate's versions.

Have a nice grid mode for more symmetrical and/or geometrically pleasing terrain plus more "props" (this time agnostic of background/theme).

AND have a draw mode for the artistically talented and/or fine-tuning, even more backgrounds, and more "layers".

Beyond that, maybe have an option to let certain stuff "bleed" into the "off-camera" and have the ability to adjust space between "layers."