Things we should be doing more of

[BluEG]

As my hiking trip winds down into its final weeks, I'd like to divulge some thoughts that I've had out here.
There is way too much time to think tbh. Maybe this is stuff I think I should be doing more myself but I think it expands out to the general Luigi population.

1. Shryuken (Up-B)

This is Luigi's ultimate punish killing as early as 60-80% on many characters. Furthermore, as the general population becomes more adept at DI, our typical finishers (Chop, Dair) become less effective as the result is that we just put our opponent in a poor position that we must leverage (and have the opportunity for error) where-as a well-timed shryuken can just take a stock.

Up-B is a pillar of Eddie Mexico's and Vudujin's play style and (Eddie especially) they have demonstrated time and time again that it is an efficient way to grind stocks.

Where do we go from here?

Identify situations where you are choosing a suboptimal option. This means shield-grabbing when you could of Up-B out of shield. This means Down-smashing when you could have Dash -> Up-B on a tech chase. This means regrabbing a fox during a chain grab when you could have done an Up-B (this situation happens more often than you think). Identify the situations and train yourself to use the optimal punish instead.

Identify when Up-B is guaranteed. Best example of this I can think of is when Marth whiffs a Fsmash into your shield. WD OOS -> Up-B is typically doable at almost any %. Another example is when Sheik recovers.

Identify situations that you can use it as an aerial combo-finisher. Soft Nair -> Double Jump -> Up-B is the real deal on floaties and even Spacies at high % on certain stages (Yoshi's comes to mind). Using it in the air is far more unintuitive than on the ground and (although it's weaker) has a lot of room for exploration.


2. Less Wavedashing

Everytime we wavedash we commit ourselves. We lose options that we would have otherwise had if we were standing still. Most Luigi play looks like we've got a serious case of ADHD, wavedashing around willynilly. We need to stop, think, and Wavedash with purpose. If you are not moving yourself to a better position or approaching intelligently, you SHOULD NOT be wavedashing. No more wavedashing because 'there isn't anything else to do'. More often than not, holding your ground should be the priority. Hold your ground and watch your opponent and the moment to wavedash (and when not to) will be that much more apparent.


3. Adjusting Wavedash Length

We have this in our arsenal. Most of the time we do the same wavedash each and every time, but in reality we should learn to use each length properly. This is a relic of learning how to perfect wavedash, and a matter of habit and muscle memory. Using a variety of wavedash lengths creates unpredictable movement and keeps our opponents off kilter.


4. Pivot Ftilt

Seriously the (theoretical) best thing ever. One of us needs to figure out how to do it consistently.


5. Wavedash -> Dash -> JC Up-Smash

The amount of distance on this technique is absurd. It's powerful and has a low-ceiling of % to take a stock from floaties. Luigi also slides a bit while performing the upsmash, extending the distance reached slightly. It's fast, extremely useful, and pretty easy to perform and rely on.

6. Misfire Combos

There are some situations that a soft Side-B can be worked into a combo. If the Side-B ends up being a misfire, we get a free kill. I think there's a lot of room to explore in this regard. By that I mean finding ways to work the Luigi Missile into our game with low risk and having a misfire end up being an incidental reward every once in a while.


7. Downthrow Techchasing

Watching DruggedFox and Plup at the majors this Summer has me convinced. Luigi can orchestrate similar situations where we repeatedly downthrow fast fallers and tech chase on reaction. I'm not sure if it's doable yet, but it's the first thing I'm going to be exploring when I get home.


8. Fundamentals

Full-hopping instead of a wavedash or rolling instead of a WD OOS is detrimental. Practice fundamental skills and the fancy stuff will come with it. No excuse to lose a stock because of a full hop. These errors need to be ironed out and if they still occur, practice practice practice!!



Any thoughts? Cheers.




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I wanted to add some thoughts

Overall I think every Luigi player needs to be much more patient. Consistently, I see Luigi players (myself included) overextend and do something unsafe or give up stage control when just maintaining their position was a much better option. Offstage is really bad for Luigi, we can cover very limited options with our slow air speed and trades are not in our favor here. Keeping stage and edge control in many offstage scenarios is the ideal way to play. I think Luigi should take ledge almost 100% of the time as the invincible ledgedash or aerial is the best option unless they can go high (fox, peach).

The neutral game is where Luigi's tend to overextend and make mistakes the most. We really should abuse our insane movement and play very defensively to frustrate opponents or make them complacent then quickly react and punish as much and as hard as we can. We should not approach very often, unless we can punish something unsafe but we should know the best approaches. Theoretically the best options for approaching out of a wavedash are to pivot Dsmash, Usmash or ftilt at max range, wavedash through a shield and attack (jab - grab, or crossup Usmash can send you even further away) or to dash dance or empty pivot and threaten space near the opponent. We should not be moving into an opponent and risking shield grabs or other oos punishes. I know I approach extremely poorly a lot of the time just because I can move so fast and I've seen top players like Abate and Eddy do the same when fishing for really unsafe moves. I also think that challenging most opponent's in the air above you by full jumping is a lot riskier for Luigi then other characters as it can put him in a really bad position, generally I would only full jump for a punish or to waveland onto a platform. USmash would be a better choice overall if it is timed correctly as it has a large hitbox with invincibility on the head.

I agree strongly with your point about using Up B. I think it's good to know some good setups for it as well. At certain percents you can combo the aerial up B with drop cancel nair, if they don't DI perfectly, which is hard for a DC nair. Another strong setup for it is to force a tech chase on a platform as it can really limit their options. Weak nair can combo at high percents into it as well on most characters depending on DI. You can land it on spacies after utilt depending on DI again.

 

[Poccoishere]

*crawls into the lab with green sheik*

 

[Flurb18]

Upthrow chaingrabs on spacies / fastfallers?

 

[Blitzbuster]

Thank you for #2. I'm very new to the competitive scene, but I have noticed that I get caught wavedashing too much. Let's be honest, most of us luigi's love playing because of his fun wavedash movement. I noticed after a while of playing luigi though, that I am pitiful at moving normally with walking/dashing/running and often don't even consider it an option. I'm wondering if anyone has a good way to practice luigi's not-wavedash movement. It's just too hard to play luigi and NOT wavedash- I almost have as much fun wavedashing around the stage as I do playing real matches. Is there a character with similar run speed and dash-dance to pick-up for that specific reason? I played falcon for a while to get used to the feeling, cuz I thought that's maybe why Abate sometimes uses him, but falcon's amazing dashdance doesn't transfer to luigi. Also, #5. Thank you- I'm going to work on that. Maybe run-cancel (with a crouch if I'm thinking right) can also be brought up? I'm not sure how useful it is for luigi, but it's food for thought.

What do you think about up-air? Again I'll say I'm new to the scene, so take my words with a grain of salt-- but I think overall we don't use up-air as well as we could. I haven't done a detailed analysis or anything, but I've always been impressed with Eddy's use of up-air. Personally, I have no idea where it will launch my opponent, but it seems Eddy knows where they're going even before he hits them.

Do you think wavedash into shield is overused? I like it as a rare mix-up but I feel like often-times we get punished hard and don't get much out of it-- all it does is gets us closer to our opponent than we want to be. What is maybe a better option, wavedash --> pivot, wavedash -->shieldstop, or wavedash -->wavedash in place? Is there one of these we should focus on more, or should our real focus go toward adjusting the length of our wavedash? Also, would it be good to mix-in a spot dodge OOS if they catch on?

(last thing I promise) I'm sorry if this should be under a new post but as long as we're talking about advancing luigi's level of play, I was wondering if anyone has found anything regarding the properties on luigi's F-smash. I read somewhere way-back that luigi's F-smash has the highest scaling knockback in the game, but it's really a gamble sometimes since it can stop the momentum on our wavedash. In my mind, a down-tilted F-smash would be one of our best kill moves and it would be great if we knew what was causing our momentum to stop.

Thanks BluEG, I really enjoy reading all your posts! These are really good things to think about as we push luigi to the next level. All other luigis, please don't be afraid to comment if you can shed some light/ have some other areas in which we can improve-- the more ideas the better!

 

[MurphyPrime]

I feel like the Shryuken sometimes limits potential combos. Like at above 80, absolutely do it every time. But would it make more sense to use something like a neutral air to some air like forward/down? I'm just curious what you think about it.

 

[Poccoishere]

Thank you for #2. I'm very new to the competitive scene, but I have noticed that I get caught wavedashing too much. Let's be honest, most of us luigi's love playing because of his fun wavedash movement. I noticed after a while of playing luigi though, that I am pitiful at moving normally with walking/dashing/running and often don't even consider it an option. I'm wondering if anyone has a good way to practice luigi's not-wavedash movement. It's just too hard to play luigi and NOT wavedash- I almost have as much fun wavedashing around the stage as I do playing real matches. Is there a character with similar run speed and dash-dance to pick-up for that specific reason? I played falcon for a while to get used to the feeling, cuz I thought that's maybe why Abate sometimes uses him, but falcon's amazing dashdance doesn't transfer to luigi. Also, #5. Thank you- I'm going to work on that. Maybe run-cancel (with a crouch if I'm thinking right) can also be brought up? I'm not sure how useful it is for luigi, but it's food for thought.

What do you think about up-air? Again I'll say I'm new to the scene, so take my words with a grain of salt-- but I think overall we don't use up-air as well as we could. I haven't done a detailed analysis or anything, but I've always been impressed with Eddy's use of up-air. Personally, I have no idea where it will launch my opponent, but it seems Eddy knows where they're going even before he hits them.

Do you think wavedash into shield is overused? I like it as a rare mix-up but I feel like often-times we get punished hard and don't get much out of it-- all it does is gets us closer to our opponent than we want to be. What is maybe a better option, wavedash --> pivot, wavedash -->shieldstop, or wavedash -->wavedash in place? Is there one of these we should focus on more, or should our real focus go toward adjusting the length of our wavedash? Also, would it be good to mix-in a spot dodge OOS if they catch on?

(last thing I promise) I'm sorry if this should be under a new post but as long as we're talking about advancing luigi's level of play, I was wondering if anyone has found anything regarding the properties on luigi's F-smash. I read somewhere way-back that luigi's F-smash has the highest scaling knockback in the game, but it's really a gamble sometimes since it can stop the momentum on our wavedash. In my mind, a down-tilted F-smash would be one of our best kill moves and it would be great if we knew what was causing our momentum to stop.

Thanks BluEG, I really enjoy reading all your posts! These are really good things to think about as we push luigi to the next level. All other luigis, please don't be afraid to comment if you can shed some light/ have some other areas in which we can improve-- the more ideas the better!

I would go Sheik. Luigi is the green Sheik; Auto cancel fair, chain throws, amazing edge guard options, decent recovery, and good mobility. She also has the same cons; poor air mobility, poor dash dance, relatively easy edge guard. Falco is also of the same vein but with ALOT more tech. You rely on your wavedash to continue your combos and your favorite move sends your opponent upwards with another of the many pluses being that you can have an insanely easy spike(compared to luigi down air).

Being a lower tier character Luigi hasn't been fully explored because there are simply other characters, so yes there is ALOT more that we could a should be doing. I would recommend you look at everywhere at once it has what you are looking for about luigi movement(haven't read it but it looks amazing from what I have read).

 

[Poccoishere]

I feel like the Shryuken sometimes limits potential combos. Like at above 80, absolutely do it every time. But would it make more sense to use something like a neutral air to some air like forward/down? I'm just curious what you think about it.

I think OP is looking more for a combo into up b instead of up b into a combo. Luigi uses up b more as a read than a true option.

 

[Flurb18]

Luigis are using wavedash as the primary, start to an approach. This is a great combo starter in a lot of situations going towards them. However, if you're a medium distance away, with both characters in neutral, against a highly mobile character (Falcon, Fox), the wavedash can be seen and punished. I am of the opinion that dash forward should be utilized more.

a) its very short, and thus not as committal, as a wavedash. Unless you're some kind of god who can choose the length of their wavedash at will every second and shorten as much as possible, dash forward is a safe option that gains a little ground and is a bit safe than wavedashing, because of the following reason.

b) It has a ton of options. You can always wavedash forward out of a dash towards the opponent. You can wavedash back. You can dash back. You can JC upsmash. You can SHFFL. You can fulljump. You can shield. etc. Pretty much all the options of a wavedash, plus wavedash forward (sudden increase in speed throws off opponent) minus dsmash and ftlit (but that doesnt matter because we're just trying to approach while staying safe - not actually attack yet. The attack will come after we decide the opponent is scared of our forward dash, and wavedash forward).

Basically its a safer, shorter wavedash because it doesn't commit... its like dipping your toe in the water instead of jumping in, so you can just test what the opponent is thinking and how they will react.

 

[BluEG]

I would go Sheik. Luigi is the green Sheik; Auto cancel fair, chain throws, amazing edge guard options, decent recovery, and good mobility. She also has the same cons; poor air mobility, poor dash dance, relatively easy edge guard. Falco is also of the same vein but with ALOT more tech. You rely on your wavedash to continue your combos and your favorite move sends your opponent upwards with another of the many pluses being that you can have an insanely easy spike(compared to luigi down air).

Being a lower tier character Luigi hasn't been fully explored because there are simply other characters, so yes there is ALOT more that we could a should be doing. I would recommend you look at everywhere at once it has what you are looking for about luigi movement(haven't read it but it looks amazing from what I have read).

The purpose of my making this thread is to generate discussion on pushing Luigi's metagame, not to refer people to another character. Yes, characters like Sheik have a pushed metagame and our in general better than our beloved plumber (lets be honest here). However, I play Luigi because of his fun, unique playstyle, and the fact that I believe he has the potential to reach a level of effectiveness close (ish) to the top characters in the game given time and development of his metagame. This is what the thread is about. Not about switching characters. Lets try to stay on topic

I feel like the Shryuken sometimes limits potential combos. Like at above 80, absolutely do it every time. But would it make more sense to use something like a neutral air to some air like forward/down? I'm just curious what you think about it.

Definitely limits combos. I guess I wasn't super clear before, but yes, you should not be using the Shryuken unless it is getting the kill. I see some circumstances when it is a defensive option OOS, but typically you won't be using it except as a finisher. Recognizing when you can succesfully perform it as a killing blow is key. I know for a fact that I miss opportunities all the time and I'm going to try to watch videos of myself and pinpoint situations that I forego it as an option because others are more obvious.

Thank you for #2. I'm very new to the competitive scene, but I have noticed that I get caught wavedashing too much. Let's be honest, most of us luigi's love playing because of his fun wavedash movement. I noticed after a while of playing luigi though, that I am pitiful at moving normally with walking/dashing/running and often don't even consider it an option. I'm wondering if anyone has a good way to practice luigi's not-wavedash movement. It's just too hard to play luigi and NOT wavedash- I almost have as much fun wavedashing around the stage as I do playing real matches. Is there a character with similar run speed and dash-dance to pick-up for that specific reason? I played falcon for a while to get used to the feeling, cuz I thought that's maybe why Abate sometimes uses him, but falcon's amazing dashdance doesn't transfer to luigi. Also, #5. Thank you- I'm going to work on that. Maybe run-cancel (with a crouch if I'm thinking right) can also be brought up? I'm not sure how useful it is for luigi, but it's food for thought..

It's a fun exercise to play games and literally not wavedash at all. It's confusing at first (and yeah, not super fun haha) but it can help conceptualize what you would like to learn. Something interesting to note is that Luigi actually walks faster immediately after a wavedash. You can also 'slow down' a wavedash by initiating a walk in the opposite direction.

As for characters that mimic Luigi's movement, Marth is probably the best option. He has the same jump squat animation (wavedash timing) and can move in a very similar way due to his excellent wavedash.

What do you think about up-air? Again I'll say I'm new to the scene, so take my words with a grain of salt-- but I think overall we don't use up-air as well as we could. I haven't done a detailed analysis or anything, but I've always been impressed with Eddy's use of up-air. Personally, I have no idea where it will launch my opponent, but it seems Eddy knows where they're going even before he hits them.

Up-air is on my radar. I agree that it's rather underutilized. In fact, this is a topic Blea Gelo and I conversed about at Apex 2015 and he is in agreement also. Up-air is extremely good for setting up combo's and weirdly enough, it can edgeguard rather well too. Unfortunately it doesn't have the same hitboxs as Mario's, which keeps it away from god-tier aerial, but it is extremely useful because of its speed and reach.

I tend to categorize characters into 3 sort of tiers - Fast fallers (Spacies, Falcon), Midweight (Marth, Doc), and Floaties (Peach, Puff). Up-air is at its best against the Midweight tier as a combo tool. Up-air -> Fair is a true combo on Marth from about 35%-55% and is a great way to get him off stage. Against Floaties it's a great spacing tool when they are above you.

Experiment with it more. The up-air, along with all of Luigi's aerials, is very powerful.

Do you think wavedash into shield is overused? I like it as a rare mix-up but I feel like often-times we get punished hard and don't get much out of it-- all it does is gets us closer to our opponent than we want to be. What is maybe a better option, wavedash --> pivot, wavedash -->shieldstop, or wavedash -->wavedash in place? Is there one of these we should focus on more, or should our real focus go toward adjusting the length of our wavedash? Also, would it be good to mix-in a spot dodge OOS if they catch on?

The reason you see Luigi's wavedash into shield a lot is because it is a method of stopping momentum from a wavedash. Dash->Shield -> Wavedash OOS is an effective way to move around the stage and keep control over Luigi's sliding. Do I think it's optimal? No. I think pivoting is a more efficient way to achieve the same purpose for less frame commitment.

I think I read this wrong, but I'm keeping the above in place. Do you mean just wavedashing with a shield raised? Doing so is a risky option and I don't think I'd use it unless playing against an Fsmash privy Marth (a bad marth). I see it being useful as a mix-up, baiting an attack from an opponent. But the better option would probably be to close the distance slightly and provoke the same reaction and then have more options to punish.

(last thing I promise) I'm sorry if this should be under a new post but as long as we're talking about advancing luigi's level of play, I was wondering if anyone has found anything regarding the properties on luigi's F-smash. I read somewhere way-back that luigi's F-smash has the highest scaling knockback in the game, but it's really a gamble sometimes since it can stop the momentum on our wavedash. In my mind, a down-tilted F-smash would be one of our best kill moves and it would be great if we knew what was causing our momentum to stop.

Its really ****ing strong. But it's slow to come out and a little harder to land. Abate is extremely good at landing them so I suggest watching videos of how he uses it. Down-tilted Fsmash is amazing! Also, if you C-stick, the momentum thing doesn't happen.

I'm thinking a lot about optimization of punishes and I think there are certain times that I Wavedash->Ftilt as a punish at highish % when Fsmash would work as well. In that case I should be Fsmashing because it will (probably) lead to taking a stock.

Thanks BluEG, I really enjoy reading all your posts! These are really good things to think about as we push luigi to the next level. All other luigis, please don't be afraid to comment if you can shed some light/ have some other areas in which we can improve-- the more ideas the better!

This forum is generally pretty quiet. Thanks for your questions and thoughts, Blitzbuster! The more the better.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I agree with up special not being used enough but it is such a risky move to use. Like if you whiff on a Shryuken you could get punished hard.

 

[BluEG]

I agree with up special not being used enough but it is such a risky move to use. Like if you whiff on a Shryuken you could get punished hard.

If a Puff misses a rest, so too do they get punished (even harder).

It's all about risk reward. The reward is so high to not use it more often.

 

[MurphyPrime]

That's definitely true. I feel like on floaty characters the Shryuken might be a better punish as opposed to on fast fallers cause of combos. I'm probably just playing too timid with Luigi .

 

[BluEG]

Passive aggression is the name of the game. Play defensive but always be ready to pounce!

 

[MurphyPrime]

Something you mentioned about things Luigi's should be doing which is techchasing. I feel like this is one area where a lot of characters could expand on. Like only Sheik and Falcon players seem to do it, but other characters might be able to do it, such as Luigi, and no one tries to learn it.

 

[Blitzbuster]

Sorry, Poccoishere was just trying to answer my question about movement practice with his sheik comment. I was just thinking there might be a character with similar movement speed and a terrible wavedash so that I wouldn't be tempted to use it. I do think Marth's movement can imitate luigi, but really when it comes down to it I'll have to just grind it out on luigi and will myself not to wavedash if I want to see my movement get better.

Down-tilted Fsmash is amazing! Also, if you C-stick, the momentum thing doesn't happen.

Thank you~ I've read a lot of stuff on luigi, and somehow I didn't know this.

I think I read this wrong, but I'm keeping the above in place. Do you mean just wavedashing with a shield raised? Doing so is a risky option and I don't think I'd use it unless playing against an Fsmash privy Marth (a bad marth). I see it being useful as a mix-up, baiting an attack from an opponent. But the better option would probably be to close the distance slightly and provoke the same reaction and then have more options to punish.

yes! that's what I was saying. Guess it shows my level of play, but I thought it was worth bringing up. While I'm at it though, In case some luigi's aren't aware of this OoS tool Schmooblidon is an amazing person who made this for us and we should use it:

http://ikneedata.com/heatmaps/oos/luigi.html

Maybe it's not super-duper helpful, but its good to know what your options are and where our strengths and weaknesses lie. But to this I think down-b should be considered, It's slower than nair, just as fast as bair, and in theory we can create distance with it (also, free charge instead of getting punished or wasting invincibility maybe?) If I'm thinking right, it should come out on frame 10.

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

About the UpB. I saw only Eddy use it in the air. It kills spacies after ~105%, so you can land it after an upthrow (if bad DI ofc). Few times, I 've done Upair (If survival DI) into UpB in the air to the kill. It's easier aigainst Falcon who is heavier and have always a foot who is messing around in his hitstun animation.
And after throwing a fox between 90% and 100%, you can Upair to Nair for the kill on FD.

About Upair, against spacies it's THE combo extenser. It's only work if they do a survival DI. So near the edge you can always put an upair before a fair because the oppenent will do 90% of the time a survival DI. And they don't do survival Di, the upair will launch them quiet as far a Fair with Survival Di i guess.

 

[säpo.]

I'd add drop cancelled nairs to the list. Really fast stuff.

 

[lightvash]

don't forget shield drop->aerial for punishing. shield drop -> nair would probably be ideal when luigi gets pressured from below, and maybe shield drop -> fair/bair when someone attacks from above.

 

[jhunter_d]

Upthrow chaingrabs on spacies / fastfallers?

I've been able to get uthrow chaingrabs on Fox from around 0%-60%, but I dunno what to do if they DI away at lower percents.

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

On PAL Fox you can totally do standard chaingrab between 10 to 40% quiet consistent. Quiet hard to pass the 40 to 55% gap but yu can still run to JC grab even if the fox GoodDi. And after you 55% you can WD to grab if they GoodDI . I've already mention somewhere that 68% is the best to shoruyken if BadDI and 78% is the best to WD shoryuken if GoodDi.

On Falco, I didn't do so precise % research. But you can definetly standard chaingrab 0 to 45%. Then to passe the difficult part (between 45 to 55%), i do a WD to uptilt to regrab, Thats not guaranted but give a tech case in the worst case. You can again WD to grab after 55%. 77% is the best to UpB if BadDi. WD to UpB on Falco is way harder than PAL fox, i dont do it but certainly possible.

 

[pkFRASH]

Hey guys! Really interesting read so far!! I'm by no means a good smash player but thought I'd try to contribute something!

I know this isn't a Luigi specific but I'm pretty sure his is one of the fastest, with reference to a ledge canceled jump or a non impact land. The way I'm thinking it could be utilised is with either a simple drop down or a shield drop and jumping on the right frame(s) to get a very quick NILand - jab/grab or something

Eg
http://youtu.be/X_Z0Oi46MLI

I hope I've explained myself well enough! Thoughts?

 

[F-ric]

I wanted to add some thoughts

Overall I think every Luigi player needs to be much more patient. Consistently, I see Luigi players (myself included) overextend and do something unsafe or give up stage control when just maintaining their position was a much better option. Offstage is really bad for Luigi, we can cover very limited options with our slow air speed and trades are not in our favor here. Keeping stage and edge control in many offstage scenarios is the ideal way to play. I think Luigi should take ledge almost 100% of the time as the invincible ledgedash or aerial is the best option unless they can go high (fox, peach).

The neutral game is where Luigi's tend to overextend and make mistakes the most. We really should abuse our insane movement and play very defensively to frustrate opponents or make them complacent then quickly react and punish as much and as hard as we can. We should not approach very often, unless we can punish something unsafe but we should know the best approaches. Theoretically the best options for approaching out of a wavedash are to pivot Dsmash, Usmash or ftilt at max range, wavedash through a shield and attack (jab - grab, or crossup Usmash can send you even further away) or to dash dance or empty pivot and threaten space near the opponent. We should not be moving into an opponent and risking shield grabs or other oos punishes. I know I approach extremely poorly a lot of the time just because I can move so fast and I've seen top players like Abate and Eddy do the same when fishing for really unsafe moves. I also think that challenging most opponent's in the air above you by full jumping is a lot riskier for Luigi then other characters as it can put him in a really bad position, generally I would only full jump for a punish or to waveland onto a platform. USmash would be a better choice overall if it is timed correctly as it has a large hitbox with invincibility on the head.

I agree strongly with your point about using Up B. I think it's good to know some good setups for it as well. At certain percents you can combo the aerial up B with drop cancel nair, if they don't DI perfectly, which is hard for a DC nair. Another strong setup for it is to force a tech chase on a platform as it can really limit their options. Weak nair can combo at high percents into it as well on most characters depending on DI. You can land it on spacies after utilt depending on DI again.

 

[ForTheLulz]

I was thinking about pivot ftilt

Would wd in to dash back to pivot ftilt be a good option since the dash back basically kills momentum?

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

I was thinking about pivot ftilt

Would wd in to dash back to pivot ftilt be a good option since the dash back basically kills momentum?

Yes that's the purpose of pivoting. To hit/shield poke someone and keep a good spacing after the hit. And not sliding in the shield of is oppenent.

But Tilt from pivoting is really hard. Dsmash and jab could be an easier option but a bit less optimal

 

[ForTheLulz]

Yes that's the purpose of pivoting. To hit/shield poke someone and keep a good spacing after the hit. And not sliding in the shield of is oppenent.

But Tilt from pivoting is really hard. Dsmash and jab could be an easier option but a bit less optimal

Many top level sheiks do it
If they can do it so can we

 

[BluEG]

I wanted to add some thoughts

Overall I think every Luigi player needs to be much more patient. Consistently, I see Luigi players (myself included) overextend and do something unsafe or give up stage control when just maintaining their position was a much better option. Offstage is really bad for Luigi, we can cover very limited options with our slow air speed and trades are not in our favor here. Keeping stage and edge control in many offstage scenarios is the ideal way to play. I think Luigi should take ledge almost 100% of the time as the invincible ledgedash or aerial is the best option unless they can go high (fox, peach).

The neutral game is where Luigi's tend to overextend and make mistakes the most. We really should abuse our insane movement and play very defensively to frustrate opponents or make them complacent then quickly react and punish as much and as hard as we can. We should not approach very often, unless we can punish something unsafe but we should know the best approaches. Theoretically the best options for approaching out of a wavedash are to pivot Dsmash, Usmash or ftilt at max range, wavedash through a shield and attack (jab - grab, or crossup Usmash can send you even further away) or to dash dance or empty pivot and threaten space near the opponent. We should not be moving into an opponent and risking shield grabs or other oos punishes. I know I approach extremely poorly a lot of the time just because I can move so fast and I've seen top players like Abate and Eddy do the same when fishing for really unsafe moves. I also think that challenging most opponent's in the air above you by full jumping is a lot riskier for Luigi then other characters as it can put him in a really bad position, generally I would only full jump for a punish or to waveland onto a platform. USmash would be a better choice overall if it is timed correctly as it has a large hitbox with invincibility on the head.

I agree strongly with your point about using Up B. I think it's good to know some good setups for it as well. At certain percents you can combo the aerial up B with drop cancel nair, if they don't DI perfectly, which is hard for a DC nair. Another strong setup for it is to force a tech chase on a platform as it can really limit their options. Weak nair can combo at high percents into it as well on most characters depending on DI. You can land it on spacies after utilt depending on DI again.

pretty much perfect. Gonna add to the OP

 

[wiiqwertyuiop]

I think as far as neutral goes, we should for the most part be playing defensively and be actively trying to bait the opponent into whiffing an attack or doing something unsafe so we can punish it; Luigi is VERY good at punishing whiffed moves because of his speed and overall range.

I think the only time it is safe to go in on the opponent too, is if you go in on their "off-beat", when they aren't expecting to get attacked or they think they are safe (which they never really are because of how big Luigi's range is), this is to make them uneasy and aids in getting them to preemptively whiff moves more often if we are being tricky with how we bait. Obviously this gets harder to do against good players, but we should be paying attention to how they move so we can get in at these moments.

I also personally have been looking for more situations to where dash dancing could be useful with Luigi, and it is something I don't see Luigi's doing often.

 

[F-ric]

pretty much perfect. Gonna add to the OP

Hey BluEG, what do you think of using shield-stops, dash-dancing and empty pivots in neutral to control momentum? I've been doing immediate shield-stop jump cancel up smash and it's similar to a pivot up smash, it's more inputs but requires less precision. Performing a shield-stop towards a landing opponent can be a really good punish setup especially against non-spacies. Empty pivot is probably the best option during tech chasing but it is hard to perform consistently and in the neutral game I don't think empty pivots are really better than shield-stops and dash-dancing. Personally I've been practicing staying mid range from my opponent and just try to make them uncomfortable with max speed wavedashes and stopping quickly with these options and I feel like my play has improved significantly recently by focusing on outmaneuvering my opponent.

 

[F-ric]

I also personally have been looking for more situations to where dash dancing could be useful with Luigi, and it is something I don't see Luigi's doing often.

I have been using it to position myself better in several ways. In neutral dash dancing can help you maintain stage control after a long wavedash, some examples include dd under platforms for wavelands onto them, dd just outside of the opponent's range (dash grab/tilts/SHFFL) and dd for a tech chase jc grab or up B. I like to dash dance before grabbing the ledge as it allows me to time the invincibility frames for an edge guard or perfect ledgedash with more precision. It's very nice for positioning yourself when not immediately threatened. I think it should be used a lot more personally and combining max speed wavedashes with precise dash dancing would allow for excellent stage control and maximize the potential movement in a way that doesn't require pivoting.

Another option is to dash and shield, called a shield-stop, and you will immediately stop. With both of these options you have access to wavedashing and all jump cancelled options so I recommend practicing all of these before trying to implement them.

 

[The Carpenter]

All really insightful stuff! I've been realizing too lately that we need more of this kind of passive aggressive play. For the longest time I got the impression from watching top Luigis that Luigi was generally a super aggressive momentum machine and that's how he should be played. Now that I'm more experienced, I realize that it only appears that way because of our monster punish game and combo game. Once Luigi has control, he does become that aggressive character using momentum but to gain that control is easier said than done as basically all high tiers theoretically should win neutral against us. We need to make them mis-judge and make a bad decision that leaves us with an opening especially if it's a character like Marth who has unreal stage coverage. I've played against almost nothing but Marth for a long while now and I think that's what made me realize the need for safer/smarter play.

The reason the top Luigis look so aggressive is because they have the eyes to recognize when it's their time to approach and do what Luigi does best and they capitalize those moments more than most because they notice when the moment exists far more often that the average Luigi. I feel that most of the time for us to win neutral we need to be ambiguous and keep them guessing what we are trying to do, try to bait them into doing anything that give us the opportunity to approach and (if we make the right options) put them into the pressure game where they will have to contend with our combo power. Luigi should be like a wolf in the wild, making himself to appear menacing but remaining passive until he has a good reason to attack and when he does attack, the attack ought to be viscous.

One other thing I'd like to add to the list is fireballs, I see Eddy use fireballs so intelligently to do things that wouldn't be possible without yet I find most Luigis hardly use them at all. I've been using them way more lately as jab resets, as combo extenders when my aerials cant reach, as a safety wall while recovering high, to pressure dash dancing opponents into backing off or to make them do an unsafe approach, I've even gotten a hand full of fireball gimps recently (stopping a spacies Up B with one can also set us up to hit them back out.) Fireball may not be that great of a projectile but when used tactically, it can work wonders and we're putting part of our character to waste if we're not using them. Even the worst moves have their time and place, I've seen D tilt and dash attack used for some amazing stuff in rare situations and they are widely known as terrible moves generally speaking. We're not high tier, we need everything we can get and need to know the time and place for everything if we wanna make it.

 

[BluEG]

Hey BluEG, what do you think of using shield-stops, dash-dancing and empty pivots in neutral to control momentum? I've been doing immediate shield-stop jump cancel up smash and it's similar to a pivot up smash, it's more inputs but requires less precision. Performing a shield-stop towards a landing opponent can be a really good punish setup especially against non-spacies. Empty pivot is probably the best option during tech chasing but it is hard to perform consistently and in the neutral game I don't think empty pivots are really better than shield-stops and dash-dancing. Personally I've been practicing staying mid range from my opponent and just try to make them uncomfortable with max speed wavedashes and stopping quickly with these options and I feel like my play has improved significantly recently by focusing on outmaneuvering my opponent.

The three 'momentum cancel' options all work to accomplish the same goal, but they have slightly different properties. I think in a perfect world we should learn how to use all of them.


Shield-stop: Takes the most frames (have to put up shield, drop shield, etc.) and should honestly be used the most sparingly IMO. Despite Luigi having excellent OOS options, at high level play, being in a shield is just not where you want to be. It limits your options greatly, and if you mess up your spacing, you will be at the whim of your opponent. Because of this, I typically use shield stops when I am retreating/ far away from my opponent.

Where shield stopping SHINES is when you have conditioned your opponent heavily. The best example I can think of is a Marth that you have been approaching upon with Wavedash - JC grab, Downsmash, Ftilt. An EXCELLENT mix-up is to wavedash in and immediately shield stop in front of them. If you've played correctly, 9/10 out of ten, the Marth will panic and through out a Fsmash / similar option and then you are free to WD OOS to punish them.
That being said, if you can not WD OOS consistently, practice until you can, otherwise shield stopping is next to worthless. I recommend using two different triggers to shield and WD, its highly beneficial.

Blea Gelo uses shield stops liberally and is probably the goto for videos if you want to understand when you should be using it.



DashDance: This is my goto personally, it leaves you open to WD in either direction depending on how your opponent reacts (you can easily retreat or approach them if they throw out a poorly spaced attack). Dash-dancing in itself is excellent and something many Luigi's don't utilize as much as I think they should.

One area where I've found dashdancing to be optimal is when an opponent is on the ground and likely to get up attack. You can wavedash into them and time your dash away to dodge their get up attack then dash back to punish.



Pivots are a strange beast. My thoughts on them are mostly theoretical at this point, as I have not yet perfected them in one direction and I think they are kinda bleh if you can't pivot perfectly in any direction. Ideally though, this is how I see pivots:

Take the situation where a fox has whiffed an UpSmash on your shield or away from you. One option I almost always take (cause lets be real, downsmash is awesome) is the WD and downsmash. Now, what happens when the Downsmash connects, is that Fox gets hit and Luigi continues to slide past the point of contact. Fox, due to the knockback, gets sent at a trajectory directly above the point of contact (dependent slightly on DI). Because Luigi continues to slide, when he gets the option to act again, he may typically be TOO far away to get a follow up, whereas, if Luigi had pivoted into Dsmash, he would be directly under the Fox and able to make an easy followup in probably 100% of circumstances.



I think my movement in this set in general is excellent, especially in Game 2 despite losing the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4SXnoUXsw4&index=15&list=PLqSexIuL7u4-9sVN0NU8NrmB9CZjBKHc8

Weekly is starting soon and I'm heading out, but I may try to find specific examples and analyze them from my point of few sometime this week.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I've been practicing pivots, and I can see the power they hold (at this point I can only do WD>Pivot Down smash but hopefully more soon). If you WD>dash back>JC Upsmash I found Luigi's momentum gets stopped, so that could be a beginner strategy until you get pivots down (don't know if people do this already). Pivot Ftilt seems crazy hard to me right now, but hopefully someone more techy can get it or it will come with practice.

BluEG
Did you forget to mention Wave dash in place, or was it left out cause of pivots? It's technically a form of MC, but I guess pivot is superior.
Another thing I wanted to ask pertaining to your guide (which is very nice btw) is how would a perfect Luigi handle a Falco/Fox who can projectile camp? Fox I can sort of see cause there's no stun on the laser, but wouldn't Falco shut down this idea a lot? Keep up the good theory crafting, I love seeing the Weegee forums active.

 

[Army805]

Can someone make a flowchart on what to do off grabs on fastfallers on FD? I know from 50%-like 100 or whatever theres the WD back chaingrab, but i'm not sure what to do when they DI in front and you can't get a regrab/up-b and just a normal followup won't kill. Also at lower percents what is the most optimal followup on DI behind for u-throw on fast fallers? Is it possible to just a dash back JC grab at low percent when they DI behind you on u-throw? I know you can get some regrabs if they have no di/di in. Also, is getting an u-smash from u-throw actually guarenteed at low percent?

 

[Focus Attack]

All of Luigi's aerials are great out of shield drop in different situations. Dair is unfortunately too slow to hit people on the platform even with the meteor hitbox which would of course be amazing, but fair, nair, uair, and bair all have great fast hitboxes for punishing people hitting your shield on a platform. Of these, I think fair and nair are the most crucial to implement.

• Fair is a frame 7 hitbox that comes out above and in front of Luigi that hits hard and even auto cancels on the ground. It can be used to hit people off stage or toward the other side of the stage to give yourself more stage control. Not only does it protect Luigi's head as he's dropping but it also comes down and strikes below Luigi's feet, making it great to cover people on the platform and on the ground. It's basically an imitation of Marth and Sheik's fairs which we've already seen used with great success at high levels.
• Nair as y'all know is the frame 3 wonder move that can turn slight inefficiencies or unguaranteed punish attempts into punishes and stocks for Luigi. It can even be drop cancelled out of shield drop, though it's a 3 frame window to go from shield drop to nair which means it's very difficult though extremely rewarding with success.You have a few more frames of leniency to hit someone on the platform without cancelling the drop which can still be followed up on frequently. Nair is also excellent to punish pokes from below the platform like Marth's utilt or Falcon's uair.

We should be doing more shield drops in general and definitely more shield drop uairs and bairs as well, I've just personally been focusing on these two and getting myself in situations where they really work as I feel like they're Luigi's most powerful overall options out of shield drop and off of platforms altogether.

 

[WeegUK]

Something that's been on my mind for a while is effective use of sh aerials wl away, I thought about it when someone commented on mangos aerial drift back to keep safe,

I'm sure this is an extremely useful mix up on approach as we can do it with 4 of our 5 aerials, it basically resets neutral if we wiff, can be turned into a double aerial or down b for a mixup, if it does hit on shield I'm thinking wl through dash towards jc grab?

What's your guys thoughts?

Edit: and as far as side b combos go it seems to me that to keep it safe it needs to be used at around 65-70% min, for no charge not misfired, as anything else would leave us in too much lag and them close enough to punish

I think it only causes knock down at these percentages but I'm not certain!

 

[Focus Attack]

It's possible to option select the misfire attempt by spacing to edge cancel the missile on whiff. I usually go for it after uthrows and utilts. Great thing about it is there are more setups on fastfallers but misfiring is so powerful that it will still kill a floaty after utilt at mid percents.