Tips for ledgedash ftilting?

[LovinMitts]

I have trouble getting a smooth enough ledgedash to ftilt immediately out of it. What's a way I can improve and/or practice this? I do have 20XX if that helps.

 

[Scroll]

Do you mean Ftilting while intangible?
There are basically 3 components that you need to have down in order to do this.
1st is a Shino Stall
2nd is letting go of the ledge on the frame Sheik hangs completely vertical
3rd is doing a perfect ledge dash and starting the Ftilt on the first possible frame.

That's quite a task.

I am far from having this down myself so I can't give you insight in a projected learning curve.
What you can do, to start off with, is to be able to do it in Develop Mode frame by frame.
Learn the mechanics of it inside and out.
Then work on getting it down, possibly doing it in Training mode at slow speed at first and moving on up.

Please share your learning experience as you get better at it!
This is a very strong tool that any Sheik can benefit from.

 

[Sharpman767]

If you hold the angle you do your waveland onto the stage you can just hit A at the right frame and you'll ftilt.

 

[Azotal]

What sharpman said, I think that intangibility isn't as important as just getting it to be smooth. This is all practice, and learning when to press A after the ledgedash (which you have to practice separately) is just something you need to test.

 

[NastyNard]

This is definitely something that needs to be approached in steps, like Trip was getting at, so I'll try and break it up as best as I can. I'm gonna try and really go into some depth here, because this is something I'd like to improve at too and I don't think I've given it enough thought before now.

1. Learn (AKA commit to muscle memory) the timing for letting go of the edge. This is critical! There's a good chance you're aware of this already, but for anyone who's not, it's important to understand how a ledgegrab works. First off, a green ring appears around your hand when you grab the edge, which corresponds to the beginning of your invincibility. Sheik then enters a short animation during which she transitions into her "hanging" position. As soon as that animation is complete and she is hanging, you can let go. It's hard to see at normal speed, but if you slow it down in practice mode you'll see what I mean. Anyway, to practice, I'd recommend starting at 2/3 speed (I personally NEVER go slower than that) and either planking or shino stalling repeatedly until you start to get it, then switch to normal speed.

2. Develop long wavedashes - I would actually practice the WD on stage before applying it to this technique. The reason I say that is because ideally you're gonna want a nice long, crispy wavedash back on stage, so you want to make sure you're not practicing a crappy short WD that will get you punished. A long WD has the advantage of (1) getting you closer to center stage, (2) making you harder to hit/react to, and (3) putting you in your opponent's face faster. To get a feel for it, practice running across the stage and then tilting just slightly below the horizantal to get nice juicy WD's. Like Sharpman said, you'll ftilt if you keep the stick held in the direction of your WD and press A, so add that to the end of each WD. You can't attack right away after initiating a WD, so it's important to have a good feel for how long you have to wait (the natural tendency when you're doing a ledgedash-ftilt is going to be to rush the ftilt).

3. Refine the wavedash - One mechanical issue of ledgedashing is that your control stick is not going to be facing the stage when you first let go of the ledge; instead it will be directed either away from the stage or down, depending on how you decided to let go. Personally, I recommend NOT pushing down to let go because that puts you into a fastfall, which makes it a lot easier to mess up the timing on the ledgedash and kill yourself. Pushing away however means you have to move the control stick farther to execute the WD, so this is the next thing I would practice. To do so, practice running forward and then WD'ing back. Again, you want the WD to be as long as possible, which is why I recommended getting that down first. Once you've got that down, just add the ftilt back in to simulate the full technique.

4. Putting it together - Finally, you're almost ready to execute the whole thing. The last thing to work on is learning the timing to start the air-dodge after the double-jump. This is kinda tricky - as far as I can tell, there's two reasons why people SD doing this: 1. They air-dodge before they get the control stick aimed toward the stage and 2. they are too slow and drift too far away from the stage when they let go of the ledge, and their air-dodge misses the stage as a result. I've experimented with it, and it seems to me that the trick is to jam the control stick towards the stage as fast as possible - I don't think it's possible to be "too fast" as long as your control stick is correctly placed when you air-dodge, but I could definitely be wrong. Getting a feeling for this timing is really the key to the whole thing, though, so it's super important. Once you've got it, you're good to go with the whole technique, and it's all about just practicing and refining it from there.

Edit: I realized some of my assumptions in 4. were wrong when I tested out my own advice, so I tried to correct it as best as I could =P

 

[NastyNard]

I also wanted to bring up some of the other options you have after a ledgedash beside f-tilt. Personally, I'm a big fan of jabbing, which has the advantage of being faster, and it usually leads to a grab if it hits. I like just straight up grabbing too, or even just running by the opponent to re-establish stage control.

What do you guys normally think about / take into consideration when you decide between the different options available after a ledgedash?

 

[Azotal]

I ledgedash ftilt for range/to get a hitbox out that is fast and scary, without really committing to a move. It's more of a ploy to gain some space on the stage (and if it hits, free fair usually).

I ledgedash turnaround grab if they're camping too close to the edge, but just waiting for me to get up. Usually it's faster than reaction time, and bad players get scared when they get grabbed so close to the edge. Follow up with fthrow, some needles, a fair or bair or ledgegrab, and you have a kill.

I ledgedash jab if they're dashdancing right around my ledgedash range and I'm scared to get hit while ftilting. I usually follow it up with a DD grab, or just a reset to neutral.

Thoughts?

 

[Scroll]

When people get used to your ledge dashes they know an Ftilt might be coming.
And so it's important to note their percentage before choosing your option.
If they have such a low percentage that they can CC the Ftilt, then it's a bad idea. That would mean they could get a free grab or what ever they want depending on your percentage.
I would rather want to get to center stage if possible if this is the case. In fact in most cases.
That would mean an emediate dash asap out of the Ledge Dash, possibly as an (extended) empty pivot and adress the situation from there.
You could also go to the platform and shield.

 

[Azotal]

an (extended) empty pivot

As in run to center stage and turn around to face the opponent?

 

[Scroll]

As in run to center stage and turn around to face the opponent?

So you can turn around, in one frame, at any point during your initial Dash animation, which is 7 frames long, by inputting a Smash Turn.
You can extend your Dash animation by simply letting go while the Dash animation runs and extend the Dash to 21 frames. In this animation that same rule applies with the Smash Turn.
If you turn around in your Dash it's called a Pivot.
If you extend your Dash by letting go we call it Extended Dash.

The Extended Empty Pivot is therefor done by inputting Dash and letting go on the 7th frame or earlier. And then inputting Back while in this animation. The Empty part means that you don't do anything but turning around. You are actionable after this one frame though so you can do what ever you want.

Lemme know if that explains it well enough for you

 

[Azotal]

So you can turn around, in one frame, at any point during your initial Dash animation, which is 7 frames long, by inputting a Smash Turn.
You can extend your Dash animation by simply letting go while the Dash animation runs and extend the Dash to 21 frames. In this animation that same rule applies with the Smash Turn.
If you turn around in your Dash it's called a Pivot.
If you extend your Dash by letting go we call it Extended Dash.

The Extended Empty Pivot is therefor done by inputting Dash and letting go on the 7th frame or earlier. And then inputting Back while in this animation. The Empty part means that you don't do anything but turning around. You are actionable after this one frame though so you can do what ever you want.

Lemme know if that explains it well enough for you

Got it, thanks. I knew about this, but didn't realize it had a name lol

 

[Scroll]

Got it, thanks. I knew about this, but didn't realize it had a name lol

Great. What caught my eye was you said "Run" which is a different action state than dash.
Since you mentioned it, that's a fairly safe option too. Run to center stage and crouch and let go. When you stand up from the crouching animation you can turn around.
I will try do that more often

 

[Azotal]

The reason my mind jumped to running is because it's something I notice M2K do when he wants to reset to neutral. He'll ledgedash and get into his dash while still invincible, no one contests it, and then he just runs back to the middle.