Turn-around B-ing Projectiles?

[yellowdee]

I've been playing using this technique, and it seems to greatly throw off my opponents. I'm not sure if top players are exploited as easily, but this feels to me like Mario/Doc's ticket to a higher spot on the tier list. Doc's approach was never the strongest, and it's an exploited detail that frequently puts the Mario Bros. in a tight spot.

However, by putting yourself within a wavedash length of your opponent, you can goad them into trying to rush you down. At this point, you can run away, short-hop, and immediately turn-around B a projectile at them. It's extremely safe, and pretty often, they simply eat it, and even if they swat it away with an aerial, it throws them off their game just a hair enough four you to wavedash back in with a jab-downsmash or continue to play tricks by deliberately whiffing aerials, retreating capes, etc.

I personally think it's a superb neutral game technique that's underutilized, but what are your thoughts on its usefulness or lack thereof?

 

[TehGuitarLord]

Do you mean reverse b, or reverse pills?

If so, I have been doing this since before I knew any AT's, and yes it is helpful. A lot of people already do this, and if u haven't seen anyone do it then maybe you aren't watching carefully. Also depends on the player and matchup for how much it's utilized.

Ex: Against fox you can do this, but if u run away and pill, he can just laser you as he out ranges you, and racks up a lot of damage fast. In this case, you approach with pills and try to get jab downsmash, up tilt, grab, etc.

However, it works better on characters like peach where she can't really beat the pills or approach if you spam them. Turnips tie with pills, so if you run away and set up a wall they can't do much.

But if you mean you're in the middle of neutral and quickly mix it up, throw a pill backwards, and then go in, that's also really effective.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

I've tried this, it's actually not too safe. As you're throwing out the pill your opponent could possibly attack through the pill and hit you.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

I think the big issue with this is that you're going to be giving up large amounts of stage control. Doc, being the defensive character that he is, has to make the most out of his punishes and make sure those punishes push him to center stage where he can remain relatively safe. Doing just about anything that pushes you away from center stage on a character with comparatively fewer approach options is bad because it makes regaining center stage all the harder.

Also this strategy is completely unfeasible on stages like BF and YS because of their small size and the threat of getting destroyed due to platform shenanigans if you decide to retreat via full jump.

 

[yellowdee]

I think the big issue with this is that you're going to be giving up large amounts of stage control. Doc, being the defensive character that he is, has to make the most out of his punishes and make sure those punishes push him to center stage where he can remain relatively safe. Doing just about anything that pushes you away from center stage on a character with comparatively fewer approach options is bad because it makes regaining center stage all the harder.

Also this strategy is completely unfeasible on stages like BF and YS because of their small size and the threat of getting destroyed due to platform shenanigans if you decide to retreat via full jump.

That's a good point, but I usually wavedash to the ledge in that sort of situation. Mario/Doc feels like the best of the best when it comes to ledge options: you can waveland in for a grab/tilt, throw pills, or down-air depending on your opponent's position. For that reason, I've felt like there isn't really such a thing as loss of stage control for Doc due to the ledge game.

 

[Henrik Lagerholm]

That's a good point, but I usually wavedash to the ledge in that sort of situation. Mario/Doc feels like the best of the best when it comes to ledge options: you can waveland in for a grab/tilt, throw pills, or down-air depending on your opponent's position. For that reason, I've felt like there isn't really such a thing as loss of stage control for Doc due to the ledge game.

Doc and Mario doesn't have any strengths when on ledge against Marth. You can't go grab the ledge against a Marth cause a good Marth that spaces well, will cover all your options. Starting with doing d-tilts to cover your ledgejumps and rolls. And if you do the invincible ledgejump>waveland>f-tilt/grab your best situation would be that you trade hits or he misses... But if he spaces incorrectly you could get the grab.

 

[CoffeeB1ack]

I like to jump past my opponent B-reverse and if my move so happens to clank with my opponent go for the KOBA and F-air them or N-air them. Its pretty fun and catches alot of my opponent of guard