Two Stocks vs Three Stocks: Global Poll Results!

SmashEurope just released a follow-up article to last week’s global poll about the stock count for Sm4sh. The questionnaire ended up getting close to 5000 responses and the results shed light on various questions and assumptions regarding the preferences of players and viewership. Taken together, roughly 58% of the voters actively prefers 3 stocks against roughly 25% in favor of 2 stocks, with the remaining voters being fine with both.

Last week, a collective of European TOs launched a global poll to gather data on stock count preferences in Smash 4. The poll was spread through SmashBoards, SmashEurope, SmashAsia, Reddit and various local communities in order to poll a diverse sample of people. We ended up with 4806 votes from 59 different countries, after removing roughly 50 duplicates and clearly bogus answers. In this article we present the results and some of our conclusions.

These are the results across the entire group polled, regardless of location or role in the community:

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The full article, written by SmashBoards admin Marc , provides tools to look through the data yourself, before it goes on to examine the opinion of Sm4sh players specifically, the common assumption about viewership and how enthusiasts of other Smash games factor into the debate. It also includes full breakdowns by region (US states and European countries) and recommendations for the future. This is the most thorough analysis of the subject to date and well worth the read for anyone invested in the competitive future of Sm4sh.

What do you think? Has this new data changed your opinion? Let us know in the comments below!

 

And 100% of TO's prefer tourneys that run on time. Don't ask for 3 stock at super nationals with 4+ games to run, or smaller tourneys with time concerns

 

This may be because I'm in favor of 3 stocks. But I never understood the argument that 3 stock matches are boring because they are longer. Why does adding and extra minute or so to the match automatically make it boring?

But to be fair though, regardless of stock/time, matches against Villager, Sonic and Rosalina take forever.

 

And 100% of TO's prefer tourneys that run on time. Don't ask for 3 stock at super nationals with 4+ games to run, or smaller tourneys with time concerns

Yet, the TOs polled followed the same voting pattern as the other groups with a clear preference for 3 stocks. Not to mention this was spear-headed by TOs who consistently run large 3 stock events with no issues.

 

Yet, the TOs polled followed the same voting pattern as the other groups with a clear preference for 3 stocks. Not to mention this was spear-headed by TOs who consistently run large 3 stock events with no issues.

Some TO's do it smart and run 3 stock without running other Smash games or starting a tourney earlier to compensate. Post is aimed at people that complain when MLG or EVO will almost always be 2 stock

 

Some TO's do it smart and run 3 stock without running other Smash games or starting a tourney earlier to compensate. Post is aimed at people that complain when MLG or EVO will almost always be 2 stock

Running 3 stocks at a fighting game major in the UK next April. Will be interesting to see if it causes any issues.

 

In general I do feel that 3 stock is the more obvious choice, as it leaves much more room for combacks and generally more comfortable and interesting matches. But the significant problem comes down to run time. 3 stock, most of the time, is going to take more time than even the regular 4 stock Melee ruleset, because that's just how long KOs and matches tend to take in Sm4sh. In a Smash-specific tourney like Apex or Big House, I feel that 3 stocks can be totally fine, because the TOs can plan accordingly to make sure Smash 4 doesn't overshadow other games. Buuuut, when it comes down to an event like EVO or other multi-fighting game tourneys, they're sharing a stage with many other fighting games that generally take much less time than Smash 4 and even Melee. Smash 4 can't be going on as long as it would with a full 3 stock match, or else it would eat up a majority of the tournaments spotlights.

There's really no way of winning here honestly.

 

Tournaments like EVO are not the norm, considering the insane amount of attendance and rigid structure of bracket pools in conjunction with no bo5 till over 95% of participants are eliminated. I still feel that they should schedule for the games they run and respect differences, but this isn't so much aimed at them as it is towards everyone who is frequently involved with Smash 4.

EDIT: Not to mention EVO is known for turning items on in Brawl and customs in Smash 4, so if they're not a role model for those things, there's no reason they should be for other settings.

 

Tournaments like EVO are not the norm, considering the insane amount of attendance and rigid structure of bracket pools in conjunction with no bo5 till over 95% of participants are eliminated. I still feel that they should schedule for the games they run and respect differences, but this isn't so much aimed at them as it is towards everyone who is frequently involved with Smash 4.

EDIT: Not to mention EVO is known for turning items on in Brawl and customs in Smash 4, so if they're not a role model for those things, there's no reason they should be for other settings.

Evo perhaps isn't the best example, I can agree with that.

Still, it's the same verse for events like MLG and other multi-fighting game events.

 

Hey guys, Me and Marc spearheaded this poll along with a couple of others. so ask us any questions you may have about this!

For those of you talking about 'TOs cant finish on time with 3stock'. I did a previous study on this and a 3stock tournament runs faster than 2stock w/customs. We heard 'it doesnt take long to sort it out!' constantly when the scene pushed for customs, did we not? Here's the answer to your question.

If the T.O is using the excuse of '3stock is too hard to run' then they either have absolutely 0 spare time to finish (which means they'll run overtime the instant something goes wrong, even in 2stock) or your T.O needs to work on his craft.

 

Im willing to just go with whatever is chosen for Tristate and EC tournaments.

 

Hey guys, Me and Marc spearheaded this poll along with a couple of others. so ask us any questions you may have about this!

For those of you talking about 'TOs cant finish on time with 3stock'. I did a previous study on this and a 3stock tournament runs faster than 2stock w/customs. We heard 'it doesnt take long to sort it out!' constantly when the scene pushed for customs, did we not? Here's the answer to your question.

If the T.O is using the excuse of '3stock is too hard to run' then they either have absolutely 0 spare time to finish (which means they'll run overtime the instant something goes wrong, even in 2stock) or your T.O needs to work on his craft.

Notice how you only mentioned WITH customs. Customs require a lot more caution and lame play than standard matches, so obviously they'll take longer.
It's not exactly about TOs finishing on time, it's about TOs having to prioritize Sm4sh in order to keep it from not getting enough spotlight, or too much spotlight at that.

Again, in the case of a smash-centric tourney that isn't an issue. But if we'really talking a multi game, multi series fighting game tourney, then Smash is NOT the only reason that tourney is being held. They could keep it off stream more, but then people may miss some great matches. They could keep it on stage/stream more, but then other games would get over shadowed.

 

I have the funny feeling this suddenly is relevant again....

 

You could run 4 stock on time at a regular event, given enough setups and a clear schedule. Why stop at 3 when 4 is an even better test of who's better / can adapt better

 

better yet, 3 stock 6 minutes. Make everyone play faster and publicly shame anyone who times out

 

better yet, 3 stock 6 minutes. Make everyone play faster and publicly shame anyone who times out

You can't shame people like me.

Spoiler

 

What if it was 3 stocks the first game, then 2 stocks for the next games in the set?

 

And 100% of TO's prefer tourneys that run on time. Don't ask for 3 stock at super nationals with 4+ games to run, or smaller tourneys with time concerns

True, 2 stock tournaments will always be faster than 3 stock tourneys (assuming every other parameter is the same), but I think the critical question is "what's fast enough?"
Brawl played with 3 stocks 8 minutes, and games were often expected to go to time. Smash 4 is a faster game, but it's given less time.
Tournaments must finish in a reasonable amount of time, or they won't be hosted at all, but for a tournament to be successful, players have to be satisfied with the results. Basically, more stocks makes for a more enjoyable tournament, so if it is possible to run a 3 stock tournament on time - and we know that it is - why should we stick to 2 stocks?

The length of each game is only one factor in deciding how long a tournament takes, having more setups, making sure setups are used efficiently, starting on time, and processing results quickly all play an important role too. These are all things majors should be better at than locals, so if my local scene can run 3 stocks 8 minutes, and finish tournaments an hour before we have to leave the venue, why can't events with 5 or 6 digit prize pools do the same?

That said, 2 stock events are easier to run, and I'd rather see 2 stocks than no tournament, so it's totally reasonable for smaller events to stick with the 2 stock rules, just like some events do best of 3s all the way through grand finals, but more serious tournaments have best of 5s for the entire top 8. I'm not saying we should add a stock part way through a tournament, just reminding everyone that the rules can vary a bit, and if larger events want to switch to 3 stocks, that doesn't mean every event has to do the same.

P.S. more stocks and longer timers should actually discourage heavy camping strategies in smash 4. This wasn't as true of brawl because the engine rewarded defensive play a lot more than smash 4 does. Obviously more stocks will make games longer on average, but we should see fewer games go to time, which is better for the games reputation.

 

Oh. And for the record, I would have thought we would have known better than to take fan-organized polls by gospel after the Smash Ballot and the "definitive" fan polls surrounding it.

 

Oh. And for the record, I would have thought we would have known better than to take fan-organized polls by gospel after the Smash Ballot and the "definitive" fan polls surrounding it.

We got Bayonetta and Cloud, so the ballot wan an epic win.... disregarding all the Gokus and Shreks Sakurai had to deal with.

 

Is this the thread in which to make the motion that FD be replaced by Omega Midgar?

 

We got Bayonetta and Cloud, so the ballot wan an epic win.... disregarding all the Gokus and Shreks Sakurai had to deal with.

Nono, That's not what I mean at all, I'm very satisfied with the results.

I was talking about the people who took polls from Reddit and gamefaqs as evidence that characters like K Rool and Shovel Knight were shoo ins.

Is this the thread in which to make the motion that FD be replaced by Omega Midgar?

Buddy, if I wasn't so afraid of Square and their baffling pickInes with copyrighting their music, I'd be there with you.

 

Notice how you only mentioned WITH customs. Customs require a lot more caution and lame play than standard matches, so obviously they'll take longer.
It's not exactly about TOs finishing on time, it's about TOs having to prioritize Sm4sh in order to keep it from not getting enough spotlight, or too much spotlight at that.

Again, in the case of a smash-centric tourney that isn't an issue. But if we'really talking a multi game, multi series fighting game tourney, then Smash is NOT the only reason that tourney is being held. They could keep it off stream more, but then people may miss some great matches. They could keep it on stage/stream more, but then other games would get over shadowed.

Yes, that was the point I was making. I wasn't disputing that 2stock is faster than 3stock, that much is obvious. The point I am making is that 3stock is faster than 2stock with customs.

If you remember back, you'll find that one of the large arguments for pro-customs was 'it doesn't take very long to sort out the custom moves for a set'. And they were correct. So therefore any arguments stating that 3stock takes too long is pretty much invalid as we know that the extra time it takes is....well, not a whole lot

Oh. And for the record, I would have thought we would have known better than to take fan-organized polls by gospel after the Smash Ballot and the "definitive" fan polls surrounding it.

Yeah, this fan poll that totally wasn't done through Smashboards and SmashEurope, and definitely wasn't featured as an article a week ago.

Sorry friend, but this was an official one

 

Nono, That's not what I mean at all, I'm very satisfied with the results.

I was talking about the people who took polls from Reddit and gamefaqs as evidence that characters like K Rool and Shovel Knight were shoo ins.


Buddy, if I wasn't so afraid of Square and their baffling pickInes with copyrighting their music, I'd be there with you.

Ohhh, I see, I really haven't understood that.... Bayonetta being #1 vote was really a surprise, though, even through I knew a lot of people was voting on her.

 

Some matchups are simply too slow to allow 3-stock games in my opinion.

It's mostly villagers who makes 3-stock unrealistic for tournaments, but personally I don't like playing 3-stock anymore either.

Way too many players still going to timeouts and some characters kind of feel like they are designed to do that. Ledge mechanics help but unless they nerf some of the defensive options again we are stuck with 2-stock, get used to it. Lol

 

Yes, that was the point I was making. I wasn't disputing that 2stock is faster than 3stock, that much is obvious. The point I am making is that 3stock is faster than 2stock with customs.

If you remember back, you'll find that one of the large arguments for pro-customs was 'it doesn't take very long to sort out the custom moves for a set'. And they were correct. So therefore any arguments stating that 3stock takes too long is pretty much invalid as we know that the extra time it takes is....well, not a whole lot



Yeah, this fan poll that totally wasn't done through Smashboards and SmashEurope, and definitely wasn't featured as an article a week ago.

Sorry friend, but this was an official one

That still doesn't remotely mean that represents the entirety of the smash community, stream watchers, TOs, players or even the majority of Smashboards and Europe.

And again, customs are not commonplace in major tourneys. Meaning the primary argument of which kind of match is faster is irrelevant, because it does not factor in non- custom 2 stock.

This is coming from a guy who PREFERS 3 stock for the record.

 

That still doesn't remotely mean that represents the entirety of the smash community, stream watchers, players or even the majority of Smashboards and Europe.

And again, customs are not commonplace in major tourneys. Meaning the primary argument of which kind of match is faster is irrelevant, because it does not factor in non- custom 2 stock.

This is coming from a guy who PREFERS 3 stock for the record.

you're not seeing how I'm coming at it. That's cool, I'll word it better

The difference between 2stock (no customs) and 2stock (with customs) was fairly small. Like on average, with customs took about a minute extra per set. Admittedly that does add up over the course of a tournament, but if the TO is doing their job correctly, that shouldn't slow down the tournament much more than half an hour, and thats looking at larger events such as the national event I run here in the UK (triple-digit entries)

I'm ALSO saying that when you compared 2stock (with customs) with 3stock, the average 3stock set was actually mildly faster than 2stock with customs. It's a very small difference, but 3stock still works out faster.

Now, if we put 2 and 2 together:
A. 2stock w/customs is ~1min longer than 2stock per set
B. 3stock is marginally shorter than 2stock w/customs per set
we can infer that:
C. 3stock is <1min longer than 2stock per set.

That's the general gist of it. 3stock takes less than a minute longer than 2stock. so the argument of 'it makes the game too long' is a weak argument at best.

 

you're not seeing how I'm coming at it. That's cool, I'll word it better

The difference between 2stock (no customs) and 2stock (with customs) was fairly small. Like on average, with customs took about a minute extra per set. Admittedly that does add up over the course of a tournament, but if the TO is doing their job correctly, that shouldn't slow down the tournament much more than half an hour, and thats looking at larger events such as the national event I run here in the UK (triple-digit entries)

I'm ALSO saying that when you compared 2stock (with customs) with 3stock, the average 3stock set was actually mildly faster than 2stock with customs. It's a very small difference, but 3stock still works out faster.

Now, if we put 2 and 2 together:
A. 2stock w/customs is ~1min longer than 2stock per set
B. 3stock is marginally shorter than 2stock w/customs per set
we can infer that:
C. 3stock is <1min longer than 2stock per set.

That's the general gist of it. 3stock takes less than a minute longer than 2stock. so the argument of 'it makes the game too long' is a weak argument at best.

Alright, I think I see the point you're making now.

Either way, believe me when I say I'd love to have 3 stocks. My local tourney actually does 3 stock... actually it DID. But it switched to 2 last week for no reason at all, we had done 3 stock just fine beforehand.

Iono, just trying to play devils advocate I guess.

 

Alright, I think I see the point you're making now.

Either way, believe me when I say I'd love to have 3 stocks. My local tourney actually does 3 stock... actually it DID. But it switched to 2 last week for no reason at all, we had done 3 stock just fine beforehand.

Iono, just trying to play devils advocate I guess.

Eyy we got there in the end. tbh doing a long-winded post probably made it easier for some other people, I make a lot of assumptions on things like this because I have all the data already.

But yeah, if you want 3 stock and your local tournaments changed randomly for (apparently) no reason, you can do your bit by asking the T.O for the reason why, and even running a poll for your local community to see what they all think. if it's anything like us and you have a 3-stock majority, then hopefully they'll listen and switch back!

 

This may be because I'm in favor of 3 stocks. But I never understood the argument that 3 stock matches are boring because they are longer. Why does adding and extra minute or so to the match automatically make it boring?

But to be fair though, regardless of stock/time, matches against Villager, Sonic and Rosalina take forever.

Not if them or their opponent is the superior player.

Not everyone plays Rosalina defensively all of the time, just some do.

 

I voted two stock, but ultimately time decides what kind of matches will happen.

 

And 100% of TO's prefer tourneys that run on time. Don't ask for 3 stock at super nationals with 4+ games to run, or smaller tourneys with time concerns

Did you miss the 8-minute time limit? Exact same limit as on games in Melee. Sm4sh is a slightly slower game so they lower the stock count by 1 from Melee to sm4sh and everything's good. Anyways, outside of TBH5, I don't think any super major has ever run fully on time.

 

Although I prefer three stocks (more stocks = more smash), as a Mega Man main, I realize that it would lead to some absurdly long sets. There are quite a few characters like Diddy and Villager who can force the match to time with relative ease if they decide not to approach Mega Man at all. Those sets are very un-fun to play, so I have to side with the 2-stock crowd unless items get enabled to make the stocks go by faster (more stocks also mitigates the influence of randomness).

 

Never even heard of this poll till now. I don't want 3 stock, it's not necessary.

 

ZeRo won like 55 of 56 tourneys with 2 stock, 6 minute format. Any arguments that we need 3 stock for lower variance reasons are invalidated by that statement. Get good people. There is no need for 3 stocks. We're trying to fix something that isn't broken...all this will do is divide the community...and make tournaments unnecessarily longer.

 

ZeRo won like 55 of 56 tourneys with 2 stock, 6 minute format. Any arguments that we need 3 stock for lower variance reasons are invalidated by that statement. Get good people. There is no need for 3 stocks. We're trying to fix something that isn't broken...all this will do is divide the community...and make tournaments unnecessarily longer.

he was also sent to losers by a relatively unknown player in round 1 at a tournament. zero is undeniably the best and he was affected by variation. what would have happened if it were 3 stock?

what would have happened if the tourney he was finally beaten at were 3 stock instead? if he were to go on another win streak (unlikely now that other people are starting to catch up to him), that loss would be considered variation that 3 stock may have helped weed out.

don't use zero's record as proof that 2 stock eliminates the need for less variation in results. 2 stock only gave us an idea of what 3 may have been.

 

What made brawl suck? Long, boring matches. Watching a one stock brawl match made it a lot faster, worth watching, and still shows the rightful winner. Sm4sh is the same in that theres no need for 3 stocks when 2 works well and shows the rightful winner. Being a spectator for melee and sm4sh, i value how quick matches are for both games. adding time and a stock will only make matches longer...yeah pretty self explanatory. Trust me adding a stock won't change the order of the top 16 players.

 

What made brawl suck? Long, boring matches.

This isn't a Brawl vs Melee thread. Don't make it one.

 

he was also sent to losers by a relatively unknown player in round 1 at a tournament. zero is undeniably the best and he was affected by variation. what would have happened if it were 3 stock?

what would have happened if the tourney he was finally beaten at were 3 stock instead? if he were to go on another win streak (unlikely now that other people are starting to catch up to him), that loss would be considered variation that 3 stock may have helped weed out.

don't use zero's record as proof that 2 stock eliminates the need for less variation in results. 2 stock only gave us an idea of what 3 may have been.

Zero came back and won that tournament, lol. This is why we run double elimination, to cover that kind of variance. It worked to perfection at big house. Going 3 stocks is overkill. And don't tell me to not use Zero's record as proof, that's the single best proof out there that the theory we need 3 stock to cover variance is BS. The best player almost always wins smash tourneys in the current format. And outside of Zero, we see the best players in top 8 almost always. Nairo is pretty much always top 3. ESAM, Ally, Dabuz, ect. are almost always top 8. In my area, the same 3 players have gotten top 3 at every tourney the past few months. 2 stock works. I wish we could just go forward with 2 stock and stop trying to fix something that isn't broken...it's only going to hurt this game's appeal and make tourneys longer for no reason.

 

Though I am in favor of 3 stock, I have one problem with it...

It's 8 a minute timeout.

I know everyone wants to run on time, but 2 stock gets a 6 minute timeout. That's 3 minutes per stock, while 3 stock gets 2.67 minutes per stock. The timeouts aren't proportional, possibly making 3 stock a disadvantage for whoever is losing because of time.

I know it's not much, and the matches probably won't get timed out because the second and third stocks are usually quicker, but it isn't proportional and it bugs me :/

3 stock, 9 minutes!!