Up-b bouncing off the stage?

[Luk]

I've noticed this happen a few times but it finally happened on video.

https://youtu.be/qXC8nk9a3GE?t=776.

Anybody know what's going on behind this weird effect where Greninja will bounce off the ledge instead of snapping to it? Even if I hit too low to grab the ledge, I'd have expected to just push into the side of the stage for a second and then fall to my death. But I can't make sense of the weird bouncing effect.

 

[MASTER719]

Greninja is not allowed to excel.

 

[The pig-keeper]

I must say that every time it happens to me it is due to the angle of the UpB that propels greninja against the structure of the stage.
But here.. *confusion face*

I believe it really depends on the type of ledge. Here we clearly see that the ledge is "round" making it harder for an up-B'ing Greninja to grab it therefore it has something to do with both hurtbox and hitbox.

I can't really tell, and it is to be feared that "misfortune" contributes to this weird effect.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai hates us.

 

[ArcGale]

It also applies if you hit the edges on Lylat Cruise while using a horizontal Hydro Pump.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

In this game there is a sweet spot and a sour spot and the sour spot is not forgiving. This can happen with other characters too though not just Greninja s don't feel like we are being hurt in any way. I play with a friend who uses Ness often and I have seen this happen many times off his PK Thunder. Simply one more skill you need to be good at.

 

[Luk]

In this game there is a sweet spot and a sour spot and the sour spot is not forgiving. This can happen with other characters too though not just Greninja s don't feel like we are being hurt in any way. I play with a friend who uses Ness often and I have seen this happen many times off his PK Thunder. Simply one more skill you need to be good at.

I thought sweet vs sour spots were specific to hitboxes. So Greninja's hitboxless up-b has sweet and sour spots that apply to ledge-snapping?

 

[Snackss]

Bouncing off of the stage restores Ness's PK Thunder for a few frames, though.

 

[Luk]

Bouncing off of the stage restores Ness's PK Thunder for a few frames, though.

Really? I wonder if this is true of Greninja's up-b as well.

 

[Makani]

Really? I wonder if this is true of Greninja's up-b as well.

Nope.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

so then what do you do? I know you can shadow sneak out of it but thats it as far as I know.

 

[Snackss]

Nothing. You die, because no one knows what they were thinking.

 

[Luk]

so then what do you do? I know you can shadow sneak out of it but thats it as far as I know.

You can? It seemed to me at the time like I just entered free-fall with no control except to slightly control the direction of my fall.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Yeah Sakurai made it to where you still cant jump though.

 

[Shack]

Seems to happen when you hit a wall/edge at a perpendicular angle.

 

[Thejewishpeople]

If this happens, you can side b and then up b gets refresh I'm pretty sure.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Its not refreshed.

 

[MASTER719]

Side B: Yes
Up B: No

 

[Luk]

Side B: Yes
Up B: No

"Yes"/"No" with regard to what? Not sure what you're saying here. Getting bounced off-stage can refresh Side B but not Up B? Is that what you're saying?

 

[ColoredCadence]

This happened to me in a tournament match a couple weeks ago on Omega Palutena's Temple.

I got home and went straight to training mode to try to replicate it, and yeah, it seems like if you hydro pump horizontally to the edge at just the appropriate height, Greninja will bounce off and die. The thing is, Greninja only bounced off above the curvature of the stage. Where you'd normally expect a ledge snap, Greninja would bounce off. I tried doing this plenty of times, and out of ~50 tries I'd say Greninja bounced off maybe 10. I assume the bouncing effect occurs at an exact height, but it occurs frequently enough so that it's just not worth the risk recovering horizontally.

In generally it seems like it's best to recover diagonally or vertically on stages with rounded edges. That sucks, 'cause it just makes Greninja's recovery more predictable.

 

[Luk]

This happened to me in a tournament match a couple weeks ago on Omega Palutena's Temple.

I got home and went straight to training mode to try to replicate it, and yeah, it seems like if you hydro pump horizontally to the edge at just the appropriate height, Greninja will bounce off and die. The thing is, Greninja only bounced off above the curvature of the stage. Where you'd normally expect a ledge snap, Greninja would bounce off. I tried doing this plenty of times, and out of ~50 tries I'd say Greninja bounced off maybe 10. I assume the bouncing effect occurs at an exact height, but it occurs frequently enough so that it's just not worth the risk recovering horizontally.

In generally it seems like it's best to recover diagonally or vertically on stages with rounded edges. That sucks, 'cause it just makes Greninja's recovery more predictable.

Also it just kind of irks me. I was starting to get a feel for how the physics of smash works. (Thanks P:M debug mode). Then things like this happen and it's like "wtf is happening here in terms of bounding boxes and collision detection?!"

It's like when you're playing a new card game with a friend, and you're getting the hang of the rules of how it all works, when suddenly he plays a 2 of spades and declares "I win". Next time you play a 2 of spades but he says "no, it's not a situation where you can do that for the win".

Like, there's a difference, for me at least, in knowing that "there is a 1/10 chance when recovering horizontally that you bounce off" vs why "there is a 1/10..."

 

[Doodle Dork]

It seems to me it only happens when you hold slightly down, trying to do some fancy angle. If you hold down you wont magnet to the ledge and you will bounce off if you go horizontal. So a solution would be to always immediately bring the control stick to a neutral position after you're doing your angle, or recover a bit lower.

 

[Abopo]

So I was testing this out, and might have found a tiny silver lining to this horrible mechanic. I found that on certain stages you can upB diagonally/horizontally into the bottom of the stage and have the rebound animation snap you right onto the ledge. After a bit of practice I got it to be pretty consistent on some stages, most notably Battlefield and Final Destination. It also works on Lylat Cruise (though it's pretty tough and risky on LC, you have to do it into the angled piece near the thrusters on the ship, it has the most significant movement), Windy Hill Zone, Dreamland, the first stage of Castle Siege, and potentially others that I haven't found.

Uses of this would mainly be just to mix up your recovery options, potentially avoiding some stage spike attempts. You can make it look like you're going to recovery straight up, but instead go into the stage and bounce up at a weird angle.

 

[Thulius]

It seems to me it only happens when you hold slightly down, trying to do some fancy angle. If you hold down you wont magnet to the ledge and you will bounce off if you go horizontal. So a solution would be to always immediately bring the control stick to a neutral position after you're doing your angle, or recover a bit lower.

This is what I had originally assumed but it's definitely not the case. It can happen if your stick's perfectly horizontal, neutral, whatever. It's entirely height dependent. If you're at a very specific height and try to recover horizontally you'll bounce off the ledge. Seems to apply to most solid ledges regardless of their shape/angle, but some are definitely more problematic than others.

 

[ninrok]

In this game there is a sweet spot and a sour spot and the sour spot is not forgiving. This can happen with other characters too though not just Greninja s don't feel like we are being hurt in any way. I play with a friend who uses Ness often and I have seen this happen many times off his PK Thunder. Simply one more skill you need to be good at.

Can confirm... I normally have no problem snapping the ledge with Ness/Lucas. Yesterday at a local training session, I bounced clean off the ledge with Lucas' forehead about 6 times, and Greninja twice. Took me a minute to stop being stubborn and aim a bit lower for the edge.

Real WTF moments lol.

It seems to me it only happens when you hold slightly down, trying to do some fancy angle. If you hold down you wont magnet to the ledge and you will bounce off if you go horizontal. So a solution would be to always immediately bring the control stick to a neutral position after you're doing your angle, or recover a bit lower.

Essentially what I ended up doing.

 

[Doodle Dork]

This is what I had originally assumed but it's definitely not the case. It can happen if your stick's perfectly horizontal, neutral, whatever. It's entirely height dependent. If you're at a very specific height and try to recover horizontally you'll bounce off the ledge. Seems to apply to most solid ledges regardless of their shape/angle, but some are definitely more problematic than others.

Ah I see. After testing it for a bit that does seem to be the case regardless of control stick position. I'm not totally wrong though, holding somewhat downwards seems to be a surefire way to not grab the ledge.

Maybe if we complain loud enough Sakurai will fix it.

 

[chipz]

its definitely if you go for the very top of the edge, it will bounce you off and GG

 

[Steve.Stone]

Another thing I don't think many people know, if you do bonk on the stage and the stage has a wall, such as Duck Hunt or Mega Man or the Elite Four, it's possible to move to and cling to the wall. Then you can use your wall jump to get back on stage, but after you jump, you're still technically in free fall and can't act so you only get the one shot.

 

[Guimartgon]

This issue comes up incredibly often, we should just have a sticked threat saying Why Sakurai despises us that's just a video compilation and an explanation about our up B.

Lucas and Ness have this issue too but they get to Up B again right after they hit the wall, you can see Nakat and other Ness mains do it a lot. Pacman also suffers from it with his side B but can just up B afterwards. Lucario has the same issue and encounters it a little more because of how his upB works with bouncing into walls(he kinda just spins there and dies, like Rosaluma) and is actually screwed.

Therefore sakurai is not a pokemon fan.(?)

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

in my experience it seems to happen more frequently if I upb slightly above the edge and also seems to not care about which stage it is on; it's happened to me on T&C, Battlefield, Duck Hunt, Dream Land, FD and Omega Palutena's. it's also happened not slightly above the edge, I am not willing to say it's random but it does seem to happen not all the time for reasons I truly do not know

 

[realmwars]

I've only had this happen once, and I cried. OH did I cry. What's worse is Greninja isn't the only one who can suffer from this. has an issue doing that sometimes, and it's no less agonizing when it does happen.

You amphibious shinobi have my sympathy.

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

I've only had this happen once, and I cried. OH did I cry. What's worse is Greninja isn't the only one who can suffer from this. has an issue doing that sometimes, and it's no less agonizing when it does happen.

You amphibious shinobi have my sympathy.

Ness can re use his upb, whereas we cannot.

 

[Mocha]

There is nothing worse than having your momentum killed by something like this happening, or even if you're behind a stock. I wonder how many tournament sets have potentially been lost to this..

 

[Guimartgon]

There is nothing worse than having your momentum killed by something like this happening, or even if you're behind a stock. I wonder how many tournament sets have potentially been lost to this..

Thankfully only 1 on my side. And ever since I've tried to just manouver on top of the stage and slide the hell away until my opponent realizes there's no reason to not challenge upB and hit me, after that I just pray hard that I don't bounce.

 

[realmwars]

Ness can re use his upb, whereas we cannot.

Not all the time. I've had instances where even when I did the timing right I couldn't up-B again.

Plus the timing can be pretty strict on the double pk thunder. Like, it has to be the very second you go off a wall.

 

[Reaper Iz Noob]

Guys please help me explain this! Is this a tech?! Of the exact mentioned above?!
https://youtu.be/AjF_bRK2-I0

 

[realmwars]

Guys please help me explain this! Is this a tech?! Of the exact mentioned above?!
https://youtu.be/AjF_bRK2-I0

I don't know, I could be wrong on this but I was thinking perhaps it was Bayonetta's attack that got you your recovery back, considering she was still shooting at you. Again I could be wrong but that might be a thing.

 

[Smashifer]

I've only had this happen once, and I cried. OH did I cry. What's worse is Greninja isn't the only one who can suffer from this. has an issue doing that sometimes, and it's no less agonizing when it does happen.

You amphibious shinobi have my sympathy.

does too. Honestly these types of things shouldn't be in the game. I shouldn't be punished for "recovering incorrectly". It's a stupid concept. Almost like the whole "Garbage without customs/amazing with" stuff they subjected to . but that's an entire discussion we can save for another day.

 

[realmwars]

does too. Honestly these types of things shouldn't be in the game. I shouldn't be punished for "recovering incorrectly". It's a stupid concept. Almost like the whole "Garbage without customs/amazing with" stuff they subjected to . but that's an entire discussion we can save for another day.

All the more reason I chose to main Palutena because I never believed in that mind set. Never used her custom moves even during the 3DS days.

 

[Megamang]

I believe Palutena is a completed and decent character with her default kit. Of course, everyone loves mobility moves for lots of (good) reasons... But she has other stuff, like invincible moves and that amazing poking fair, and a good grab from jab, really unique usmash. Idk, im not gonna go super into Palutena on the greninja forums, but she is the same completeness as other characters with her normal moves, she just has very unique and powerful ones. And I know she was the example character, idc.


But anyways. This sucks when this happens to you, and we should not recover horizontally to make a ledge snap. If you do want to recover totally horizontally, land on the stage. I'd say its not totally impactful, since recovering from below is one of the safer ways to recover in many situations.