Upgrade Your Offense With Attack Canceling

With Super Smash Bros. Ultimate finally out, we're already starting to see some new tech emerge, and My Smash Corner brings us one that could be a game changer in the form of attack canceling. It's possible to cancel the early frames of any grounded normal - be it a jab, tilt, smash or dash attack - into a jump. It's also possible to cancel a dash attack into a grab.

There are two notable applications for this. For one, attack canceling a dash attack will produce a neutral jump rather than a forward jump like one would normally perform out of a dash, making this useful for spacing aerials with characters like Marth or Toon Link. Attack canceled forward-tilts can also be used to quickly perform turn-around aerials from a standing position.

My Smash Corner goes more in-depth with applications for the technique in the full video - including some character and matchup-specific variations. He also presents a similar technique in the form of Instant Reverse Aerials, a technique comparable in utility to Reverse Aerial Rush, but with an input similar to an attack cancel.

Those familiar with traditional fighting games will likely recognize this as a type of kara cancel - canceling an action's early frames into another action. Usually this is possible due to leniency measures designed to prevent mis-inputs for actions that involve certain button combinations, and it wouldn't be surprising if that turned out to be the case here.

 

Great now this game is gonna turn into glitch fest melee where so called "competitive" players will says they're good at the good because they know how to do glitches

 

Great now this game is gonna turn into glitch fest melee where so called "competitive" players will says they're good at the good because they know how to do glitches

It's a leniency feature, not a glitch.

 

even assuming that it is a glitch, how does that damage its competitive integrity? it only marginally affects gameplay and what little it does adds just a little more depth to the game.

 

This looks crazy weird/cool, but mostly just seems one more way for me to get destroyed online

 

It's a leniency feature, not a glitch.

don't fall for obvious bait.

 

It's a leniency feature, not a glitch.

Find me the interview where sakurai talked about this glitch. This is the fault of his team for leaving it in and all of you "competitive" players for breaking the game like you did with unfinished melee

 

Find me the interview where sakurai talked about this glitch. This is the fault of his team for leaving it in and all of you "competitive" players for breaking the game like you did with unfinished melee

Implying Brawl and Smash 4 are any more finished than Melee...?

 

Please refrain from Melee vs Brawl vs Smash 4 vs Ultimate debates, it does nothing but cause problems.

 

even assuming that it is a glitch, how does that damage its competitive integrity? it only marginally affects gameplay and what little it does adds just a little more depth to the game.

I could see what the others are talking about so let me try to explain: It inherently lowers the skill ceiling for doing well in a match, just like using a GC controller over a pro controller does (since the notches make it easier to rest the stick in the specific direction you want it to be in, rather than having to get used to the full rotation of a stick; don't get me wrong, I love GC controllers but this is definitely a thing to really think about.). They just want those with an actual skill level to succeed over those that over-use the oversights in the game.

 

Implying Brawl and Smash 4 are any more finished than Melee...?

Those games didnt have glitches like wavedashing and l cancelling, which is the only reason why "competitive" smash players enjoy that mess of a game

I could see what the others are talking about so let me try to explain: It inherently lowers the skill ceiling for doing well in a match, just like using a GC controller over a pro controller does (since the notches make it easier to rest the stick in the specific direction you want it to be in, rather than having to get used to the full rotation of a stick; don't get me wrong, I love GC controllers but this is definitely a thing to really think about.). They just want those with an actual skill level to succeed over those that over-use the oversights in the game.

That is not what I am talking about at all. A gamecube controller is not a glitch. This glitch will make this game like overrated melee where people only like the game because of glitches.

 

Those games didnt have glitches like wavedashing and l cancelling, which is the only reason why "competitive" smash players enjoy that mess of a game

You do realize smash 64 had z-canceling (which is even more powerful than l-canceling) was purposely added to the game, right? And stfu with the "competitive" BS, all smash games that you say have dumb glitches that ruin the competitive scene have so much more than just those glitches. You have to be joking when you say that players like M2k, Leffen, and Hbox are fake players because they wavedash. Super smash bros as a whole is a game about reading your opponent and adapting to their habits to beat them. Glitch or no glitch that is the core of this game, and pro players are able to do that to a very high level. Before saying that players are not actually competitive because they wavedash, maybe you should learn how to play the game.

 

I could see what the others are talking about so let me try to explain: It inherently lowers the skill ceiling for doing well in a match [...] They just want those with an actual skill level to succeed over those that over-use the oversights in the game.

the exact opposite happens with difficult-to-use physics quirks like this. both the skill floor and skill ceiling for competitive play are raised. new players will need to learn how to exploit it, advanced players will have it thoroughly ingrained in their muscle memory as just one of their many options. it's no different from some of the more esoteric intended mechanics in the game.

it lets better players succeed via their superior knowledge on the game on top of being really good; poor players who attempt to coast on game knowledge and nothing else go 0-2.

 

You do realize smash 64 had z-canceling (which is even more powerful than l-canceling) was purposely added to the game, right? And stfu with the "competitive" BS, all smash games that you say have dumb glitches that ruin the competitive scene have so much more than just those glitches. You have to be joking when you say that players like M2k, Leffen, and Hbox are fake players because they wavedash. Super smash bros as a whole is a game about reading your opponent and adapting to their habits to beat them. Glitch or no glitch that is the core of this game, and pro players are able to do that to a very high level. Before saying that players are not actually competitive because they wavedash, maybe you should learn how to play the game.

L cancelling IS a glitch, there is 0 evidence that it was intended for melee, I dont care if there was something kind of like it in 64.

And no, glitches like wavedashing and l cancelling do not ruin the "competitive" scene. The idea alone ruins it. As I have previously stated, "competitive" smash bros is like having a socialist as the president of the united states, the land of free market capitalism. Every "competitive" player, glitch user or not, is a fake player.

 

As I have previously stated, "competitive" smash bros is like having a socialist as the president of the united states, the land of free market capitalism. Every "competitive" player, glitch user or not, is a fake player.

Imagine typing this.

 

L cancelling IS a glitch, there is 0 evidence that it was intended for melee, I dont care if there was something kind of like it in 64.

And no, glitches like wavedashing and l cancelling do not ruin the "competitive" scene. The idea alone ruins it. As I have previously stated, "competitive" smash bros is like having a socialist as the president of the united states, the land of free market capitalism. Every "competitive" player, glitch user or not, is a fake player.

I bet you are not fun to be around at tournaments.

 

L cancelling IS a glitch, there is 0 evidence that it was intended for melee, I dont care if there was something kind of like it in 64.

And no, glitches like wavedashing and l cancelling do not ruin the "competitive" scene. The idea alone ruins it. As I have previously stated, "competitive" smash bros is like having a socialist as the president of the united states, the land of free market capitalism. Every "competitive" player, glitch user or not, is a fake player.

L-Cancelling is NOT a glitch. Please do your research. See references below. Let’s move on.

https://smashboards.com/threads/l-canceling-proof-that-it-was-intentional-not-a-debate.140521/

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/05/05/zlcancel/

 

I bet you are not fun to be around at tournaments.

Lol imagine actually thinking I go to so called "competitive" smash tournaments, where theres no skill or strategy whatsoever, just glitch spam

 

L-Cancelling is NOT a glitch. Please do your research. See references below. Let’s move on.

https://smashboards.com/threads/l-canceling-proof-that-it-was-intentional-not-a-debate.140521/

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/05/05/zlcancel/

Save your effort. This is guy is a textbook troll.


Guys just ignore him and quit feeding off his obvious bait. If his response here arent enough to prove he’s a troll to you somehow, he has this in his post history:

Spirits are liberal communists and communists arent fighters so spirits wont be playable

 

Save your effort. This is guy is a textbook troll.


Guys just ignore him and quit feeding off his obvious bait. If his response here arent enough to prove he’s a troll to you somehow, he has this in his post history:

That message about communists was just to troll to show how dumb the "competitive" community is.

 

Anyways, back on topic: I’ve started incorporating this into my play and the timing is tight, but totally doable after practice. I went with using the right trigger for jump as the video suggests. So far I’ve been able to catch opponents off guard with instant advancing Bairs using the tilt canceling tech. Especially good with Lucina due to her Bair turning her around for easy follow ups. Cancelling dash attack into the extended distance retreating aerials has also been amazing for the neutral game. I’m loving this!!

 

Please return to the topic at hand. Continuing in the above conversation is considered spam.

 

Anyways, back on topic: I’ve started incorporating this into my play and the timing is tight, but totally doable after practice. I went with using the right trigger for jump as the video suggests. So far I’ve been able to catch opponents off guard with instant advancing Bairs using the tilt canceling tech. Especially good with Lucina due to her Bair turning her around for easy follow ups. Cancelling dash attack into the extended distance retreating aerials has also been amazing for the neutral game. I’m loving this!!

yea i definitely feel like the quick advancing bair is the most useful thing to try to incorporate into my game, but with how i consistently wiff it in the training room its going to be a bit till i actually bust it out in online play

 

This is godlike!!!!!

 

i like it I support it and Simon will whip it out as well.

 

yea i definitely feel like the quick advancing bair is the most useful thing to try to incorporate into my game, but with how i consistently wiff it in the training room its going to be a bit till i actually bust it out in online play

I have definitely noticed that I will sometimes get a forward air with momentum, definitely going to lab it out.

 

I might have to watch this a few times to put the whole thing together, because the controller interaction between it all is kinda tough to wrap my head around completely... particularly on how the movement stick and the second stick interact with each other.... because MSC quickly goes into the practical applications after sharing how to do it, and doesn't show the inputs while demonstrating it... I find it a bit difficult to follow.

I THINK there was something similar in Smash 4, but none of my characters had any noticeable gains, so I ignored it...

 

The tech is really cool and all but I doubt it will see much use at a high level or at least won't see use for a while. It's possible to get consistent with it in training but in tournaments while under pressure and actually playing against strong opponents it's going to be too inconsistent to use and gets punished extremely hard if it's messed up.

This feels like perfect pivoting in Smash 4 where it's cool and useful but too inconsistent to ever executed unless someone finds something like Bidou for Smash Ultimate.

 

The tech is really cool and all but I doubt it will see much use at a high level or at least won't see use for a while. It's possible to get consistent with it in training but in tournaments while under pressure and actually playing against strong opponents it's going to be too inconsistent to use and gets punished extremely hard if it's messed up.

I’ve had regular practice and imo the instant advancing bair is the real deal. I could easily see that showing up in high level play for certain characters. I don’t know if all fighters can make use of it but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it being a large part of some movesets. The other tech shown in the video is undoubtedly more difficult to pull off consistently and could take a while for anyone to bother learning. I’m assuming it will take a dedicated player to prove its worth at a high level before it catches on.

 

I’ve had regular practice and imo the instant advancing bair is the real deal. I could easily see that showing up in high level play for certain characters. I don’t know if all fighters can make use of it but I wouldn’t be surprised to see it being a large part of some movesets. The other tech shown in the video is undoubtedly more difficult to pull off consistently and could take a while for anyone to bother learning. I’m assuming it will take a dedicated player to prove its worth at a high level before it catches on.

Yeah the Bair is definitely viable and pretty simple to execute consistently. You can also do it by flicking forward on the Left Stick, jumping, and then flicking back which I find personally more consistent.

The other ones are definitely questionable imo because of the difficulty of executing them in a normal game let alone under the pressure of tournaments.

 

People will figure out combos with this even if they're difficult. I've heard the it's "too hard" thing before back in Melee when I was 12 (hoo wee that was 2005!), and I believed it myself too when it came to the space animals. But now look at where the meta for that game is.

No it's not going to be just something that everyone's gonna pick up and play with attack cancel combos instantly. This will take a lot of training, especially in the middle of a match where you have to contest your own feelings of tension. But it's something that definitely is worth experimenting with and practicing, because someone already is and someone will be pulling this off in tournaments sooner or later.

 

People will figure out combos with this even if they're difficult. I've heard the it's "too hard" thing before back in Melee when I was 12, and I believed it myself too when it came to the space animals. But now look at where the meta for that game is.

No it's not going to be just something that everyone's gonna pick up and play with attack cancel combos instantly. This will take a lot of training, especially in the middle of a match where you have to contest your own feelings of tension. But it's something that definitely is worth experimenting with and practicing, because someone already is and someone will be pulling this off in tournaments sooner or later.

I am currently practicing this! I am doing it at 1/4 speed until it becomes natural and then keep picking up the speed. I have a bit of trouble with reverse aerial rushes, I tend to get my timing wrong or I press jump before using my c stick on 1/4 speed but I’ll get it down. I ain’t exactly practicing combos there more like movement and options first then combos.

 

this looks insanely cool. the more we can find to this game, the better imo. it's gonna be fun learning to master this

 

Great now this game is gonna turn into glitch fest melee where so called "competitive" players will says they're good at the good because they know how to do glitches

dude, are you mentally ill?


Did you just say having technically skilled players is a bad thing??????????

 

so i have to use claw grip to use this without setting a trigger to jump? thats a pain in the ass ngl. i dont wanna learn an entirely new grip lol

 

Honestly it's not that hard everybody. Just go into training mode and try it out at half speed then try it out at normal speed for about a half an hour. If it doesn't work the first time you try it, don't get discouraged! Try again tomorrow, then the next day, and then the next. You can do it, honestly it's just something that comes with practice. When I first tried it I was ready to type right into this message board "It doesn't work with simon", then I went to 1/2 speed and got it to work there, then I went to full speed and worked it out there as well.

The big thing to remember, if I think I'm doing it right is this: The direction the arial you choose will be is going to be the direction you move the left stick in, NOT the c stick. There's a small window of timing after you get it right that you can then move the left stick in, and this determines if the arial will be a forward arial, back arial, up, or down.

 

dude, are you mentally ill?


Did you just say having technically skilled players is a bad thing??????????

dont give the melee haters who cant wavedash attention brah

 

Well after getting off a few attack cancelled arials in online play I can say this new tech is awesome! I'm a Simon main, and before the best thing I could do was shorthop fair or shorthop bair in neutral, but now my jump range is crazy when I land the attack cancel right! The only tough thing though, is getting my smashes off consistently without a c-stick for smash attacks. I know, I know, i should be able to do it easily but it's just sort of a muscle-memory problem a this point. I had a perfect opportunity to get a kill and more than once I just used c-stick forgetting it's set to tilt, so instead of getting a forward smash for the kill all I did was put them off stage with f-tilt. Tell all your friends about this new tech because it's going to make everybody's game a lot better!

also important note: diagonal arials DO work with this, I'm a simon main, and his arial whips have a diagonal angle (diagonal forward up, diagonal forward down, diagonal backwards up, diagonal backwards down).

 

dont give the melee haters who cant wavedash attention brah

Spoiler

I used to be a melee hater and could wavedash easily in it. But that's because I was a stupid kid who was hyped that Brawl just came out and I felt like the Melee community was the "enemy" that tried holding Brawl back. But now I can look back and see that Brawl was holding Brawl back lmao
My point is... actually I don't know what my point is. I think I just got caught up in memory lane >.>

Anyways..! A lot of the applications for attack canceling doesn't appear to help neutral too much. Looks like it's better for combos, unless I'm missing something. I have limited free time to practice with friends locally, so should I focus more on my neutral before I even bother with this?

 

I can definitely get the tilt cancel back air to work, and I can do the dash cancel by tilting the c-stick in the direction I’m facing, but the instant aerial rush I.e. foxtrot input is confusing me. How is this different than a tilt cancel? Is the c-stick during the foxtrot only inputting a turnaround and not an attack?

Moreover, I am having a weird result that I don’t understand from my inputs. What possible reason could there be for full dash+reverse c stick+release control stick +jump to let out a neutral air WITH continuing momentum. (NOT the neutral air from dash attack cancel)?

Basically, when practicing the foxtrot RAR, I find that, obviously, if I press jump before the c-stick I get a bair, if I am in a full dash when I hit c-stick and then jump, I get the dash attack cancel, and if I wait too long to press jump, I get a dash attack. But I’ve noticed that sometimes a forward air will come out. At first, I thought it was just the dash attack cancel with a forward input from the control stick, but then I started letting go of the control stick and ended up getting neutral airs with continuing momentum, which don’t make any sense to me given the backward c-stick input.

Could this perhaps have something to do with the fact that the backward c-stick will occasionally buffer an f-tilt instead of a dash attack?

I hope I explained this well enough. Any help someone could give me would be great, thanks!