What are King Dedede's primary weaknesses?

[Rango the Mercenary]

What do you find yourself cursing your main at on a daily basis because he can't get done what others can? I've always found that Dedede's huge range, kill power, aerials, grab range, and survivability make him a true boss character - advantage over most of the roster, and enough to be a secret high tier character, yet one that's largely underrepresented. I feel that the way Dedede goes low and has a super armor and fast Up B makes him very hard to gimp.

Yet, again, I notice he seldom places in tournaments and there aren't many noteworthy users. Sakurai himself, on the loading transitions, insists Dedede is perfect, so I'm wondering if he really has any true weaknesses?

 

[williamsga555]

Poor frame data, poor mobility, large hurtbox, lack of reliable kill confirms, and general inability to force approaches.

Can't go into too much detail at the moment, but biggest one imo is frame data.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

He his pure combo bait,a lot of his moves come out relatively slow and end relatively slow,his only projectile gets reflected by like everything,his inhale is pretty much useless in competitive play, and he has a lot of bad matchups most of which are higher tier characters which are used more in tournaments and stuff. I really want to use this character but those weaknesses are too much to look past

 

[FrostBlitzkrieg]

Poor aerial mobility, no great approach options, he gets easily zoned, recovery only good on paper as it can get stuffed by meteor smashes, and you need great spacing and be able to deal with pressure to play him well.

I'll agree that his frame data is a big proponent to this. If they changed him to have moves come out faster, have hitboxes that make sense (down tilt has not hitboxes near Dedede), and they had Gordos stick to any wall they hit instead of having a chance to stick (or whatever, it'll stick if you're frame perfect, but that's too hard ) then he could be top tier easily.

 

[cwjakesteel]

The difficulty of handling projectile spam, and not having a neutral. Every other complaint I have could be called nitpicking apart from this.

 

[dreamastermind]

Back air, forward air, and down air easily cancel when too close to the ground making you vulnerable to punish. His kill moves do kill at low % but they require the opponent to make a mistake and aren't very safe. His down air can spike which is great, but I wish it was like brawl. Same with back air being so fast and usable at any closeness to the stage in brawl.

With back air, It happens to us all the time. We can get it right but we still misjudge distance every now and then, cancel a back air, and end up getting punished for it. It's like, the only move we can "safely" throw out consistently though. So it's very predictable.

Gordos are amazing, but require perfect spacing and timing. So that can be a weakness. DDD might be "perfect" but we aren't and mastering gordos is as challenging as trying to toss a ping pong ball into a plastic cup 10 feet away. But imagine someone else also occasionally hitting it back at you.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Gordo seems to give Dedede an invincibility frame. Also, if you're too close, that is some seriously painful combo damage. I have a hard time reading Dedede's recovery and going for a meteor smash, especially since it comes up so fast and you don't have to be at the very low point of his recovery to snap the ledge. It's also inconsistent, since the same Dedede player I faced was launched by Eruption and also survived it via armor on the ledge.

He truly is combo fodder, though. But I feel his hammer range makes up for his lack of aerial mobility, making him dangerous. I've always had a big problem with the matchup, and I feel part of it is that I don't know what to do a lot of the times. His grab range is also really good, and some of his attacks seem to outrange Ike's by just a hair, or come out faster to beat them out.

One thing I learned, though, is that launching the Gordo back is the best possible time to go in for a potential approach and attack Dedede.

 

[Soul Train]

Gordo seems to give Dedede an invincibility frame.

He truly is combo fodder, though. But I feel his hammer range makes up for his lack of aerial mobility, making him dangerous.

His grab range is also really good, and some of his attacks seem to outrange Ike's by just a hair, or come out faster to beat them out.

One thing I learned, though, is that launching the Gordo back is the best possible time to go in for a potential approach and attack Dedede.

Gordo Throw has a total ~57 frames of vulnerability. Definitely no invincibility frames.

Hammer range would help with lack of aerial mobility...except the startup frames for all hammer moves are absurd. The endlag of hammer moves also makes them unusable near the ground, meaning D3 can't approach due to bad frame data, nor punish due to bad horizontal mobility. Ugh.

D3's Ftilt does outrange Ike slightly, but it's unsafe on shield. Otherwise nothing else we have is faster/better than Ike's options.

And honestly, unless you're Bowser/Ganondorf/DK, it's smarter to make D3 approach you. Reflecting Gordos back is great, but a good D3 will never let that happen without a reflect option of his own.

Keep up the D3 complaints, boise. We just might get those buffs yet.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

That would be a very scary thing.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Keep up the D3 complaints, boise. We just might get those buffs yet.[/QUOTE]

Ok. Dedede needs less startup and end lag on everything and he needs complete super armor on his up-B also gordos shouldn't be so easy to knock back. And gordo throw shouldn't have as much start up or end lag. Down B needs more range. Up smash needs less end lag. Dairs spiking hit box needs to be larger and the move itself needs less startup. And make Nair come out frame 1 so he can get out of combos easier.
That last one might be a bit of a stretch but you get the idea. In fact anything that could allow him to not be complete combo food would be perfect.

 

[Endurrr]

Keep up the D3 complaints, boise. We just might get those buffs yet.

Ok. Dedede needs less startup and end lag on everything and he needs complete super armor on his up-B also gordos shouldn't be so easy to knock back. And gordo throw shouldn't have as much start up or end lag. Down B needs more range. Up smash needs less end lag. Dairs spiking hit box needs to be larger and the move itself needs less startup. And make Nair come out frame 1 so he can get out of combos easier.
That last one might be a bit of a stretch but you get the idea. In fact anything that could allow him to not be complete combo food would be perfect.[/QUOTE]
Frame 3 not frame 1, lets be realistic here and lets not forget that dedede needs better out of shield options too.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Ok. Dedede needs less startup and end lag on everything and he needs complete super armor on his up-B also gordos shouldn't be so easy to knock back. And gordo throw shouldn't have as much start up or end lag. Down B needs more range. Up smash needs less end lag. Dairs spiking hit box needs to be larger and the move itself needs less startup. And make Nair come out frame 1 so he can get out of combos easier.
That last one might be a bit of a stretch but you get the idea. In fact anything that could allow him to not be complete combo food would be perfect.

Frame 3 not frame 1, lets be realistic here and lets not forget that dedede needs better out of shield options too.[/QUOTE]
Yeah frame 1 is definitely a bit of a stretch. And maybe make up smash come out faster so he can use it out of shield better. But if they were to make him less combo food more actually getting some hits in I'd probably use him as one of my mains.

 

[Endurrr]

weird reply fail pls delete

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I feel Dedede is a godmode on Ike online. Offline may be different, but I've faced so few of them it's hard to tell. Having the same reach, but more kill power, more weight, and grab range that extends nearly as long as our Nair and DTilts on shield, even spaced, makes him a completely antithesis to Ike online. Fighting Dedede is extremely scary, and though the Ike boards would agree Dedede not a bad matchup on Ike, it's hard to really tell with so few Dedede players offline to base it off of.

 

[Cook]

Did someone say inhale is almost useless in competitive play? Loooool, ok.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Did someone say inhale is almost useless in competitive play? Loooool, ok.

What use is there for it other than disrespect? And healing small percents from certain physical projectiles

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What use is there for it other than disrespect? And healing small percents from certain physical projectiles

Beating people like me who shield too much.

 

[Cook]

It's an amazing move for beating shields. Plz.

 

[Soul Train]

Inhale is D3's main answer to defensive options. Yes it needs slight frame data buffs to match the utility of Wario's Bite, but even still it's very usable. Spaced right Inale beats shield, spotdodge, and backroll. That's quite a lot. Also, you instantly gain stage control - either the opponent doesn't mash and has to eat an edgeguard (D3's best situation period), or mashes and faces a Uair/Fair mixup. Furthermore, as D3's throws suck for killing, opponents usually know to just shield at high %s until D3 opens himself up. Inhale beats this, as % doesn't affect how far opponents get spat out - I've gotten many clutch KOs with a nice Inhale -> Uair read.

 

[Kneutronic]

Unfortunately, Dedede is one of the slowest characters in the game, with his aforementioned poor frame data and slow movement speed. His more reliable KO options are weaker than most heavyweights attacks, as well, and his projectile can be easily reflected back at him. To top that all off, his large hitbox and fast falling speed makes him one of the easiest characters to hit and combo.

The best way to play as Dedede is to be extremely patient and read your opponent really well. One of the things Dedede is good at is punishing opponents, so use that to your advantage.

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Inhale is D3's main answer to defensive options. Yes it needs slight frame data buffs to match the utility of Wario's Bite, but even still it's very usable. Spaced right Inale beats shield, spotdodge, and backroll. That's quite a lot. Also, you instantly gain stage control - either the opponent doesn't mash and has to eat an edgeguard (D3's best situation period), or mashes and faces a Uair/Fair mixup. Furthermore, as D3's throws suck for killing, opponents usually know to just shield at high %s until D3 opens himself up. Inhale beats this, as % doesn't affect how far opponents get spat out - I've gotten many clutch KOs with a nice Inhale -> Uair read.

I never knew it beat shields. Maybe I underestimated since I've never seen anyone really use it other than to get a suicide kill. And I never used it because of the startup and end lag.

 

[Soul Train]

I never knew it beat shields. Maybe I underestimated since I've never seen anyone really use it other than to get a suicide kill. And I never used it because of the startup and end lag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFyMsS7UJw Enjoy.

 

[Axel311]

Big weaknesses are:

Bad frame data, huge hurtbox, bad mobility, no kill confirms, most moves are punishable.

And that's why he's low tier. Buffs please, Sakurai. Seriously, buffs are a no brainer at this point.

 

[Ti-Phil]

I never knew it beat shields. Maybe I underestimated since I've never seen anyone really use it other than to get a suicide kill. And I never used it because of the startup and end lag.

It's also useful to mess up with the controls of the opponent :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6TBsPMDq28

 

[BulgeTremmor]

I'd be inclined to say that King Dedede doesn't really have that many weaknesses in the hands of a capable player. His setups with Gordo give him that infinite window of versatility that no other character has.

 

[Girthquake]

I'd be inclined to say that King Dedede doesn't really have that many weaknesses in the hands of a capable player. His setups with Gordo give him that infinite window of versatility that no other character has.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[BulgeTremmor]

I respectfully disagree.

I would love hear your inquiry on this topic then if you must disagree.

 

[Girthquake]

I would love hear your inquiry on this topic then if you must disagree.

My rebuttal would have to be that Gordo Toss has an unreasonable amount of end lag. The FAF on Gordo Toss is a whole 64 frames, making even your fastest attack which would be down tilt almost impossible to get off against most match ups where the opponents pick has great mobility on the ground. Not to mention that perfect shielding is like a magic trick to make Gordo go POOF gone.

I feel your opinion is ill informed.

 

[BulgeTremmor]

My rebuttal would have to be that Gordo Toss has an unreasonable amount of end lag. The FAF on Gordo Toss is a whole 64 frames, making even your fastest attack which would be down tilt almost impossible to get off against most match ups where the opponents pick has great mobility on the ground. Not to mention that perfect shielding is like a magic trick to make Gordo go POOF gone.

I feel your opinion is ill informed.

I fear I must disagree with your statement. Sure, he has a fair amount of end lag on Gordo Toss, but on the hands of a skilled competitor, one can safely zone the opponent with Gordo Toss. In addition, Gordo's properties allow King Dedede to set up traps and create followups by knocking your opponent into the Gordo. These qualities are what give King Dedede the traps, pressure and mind games that set him apart from any character in the roster.

I would advise you to do some research on the several set-ups King Dedede has regarding Gordo before you attempt to refute my claims of King Dedede's potential as a tournament contender.

 

[Soul Train]

I fear I must disagree with your statement. Sure, he has a fair amount of end lag on Gordo Toss, but on the hands of a skilled competitor, one can safely zone the opponent with Gordo Toss. In addition, Gordo's properties allow King Dedede to set up traps and create followups by knocking your opponent into the Gordo. These qualities are what give King Dedede the traps, pressure and mind games that set him apart from any character in the roster.

I would advise you to do some research on the several set-ups King Dedede has regarding Gordo before you attempt to refute my claims of King Dedede's potential as a tournament contender.

BulgeTremmor , it's good to see someone new on the boards! Thanks for jumping in and getting involved here, you've obviously made an effort to pick up conversations in multiple threads.

That said, two things for you.

• First: please watch this. The D3 boards are no stranger to the potential of Gordo and its traps. Girthquake is being incredibly polite to you, he knows his stuff, I wouldn't tell him to research D3 setups until you've seen his youtube channel.
• Second, it's apparent that you haven't played much competitively with D3. I love your passion for the King - we need it! - but we won't improve our D3 play unless we're realistic. We have some incredible D3s on this board, and most have played in tourneys - and all are acutely aware of D3's frame data weaknesses. You've probably played a lot of For Glory/3DS/with local friends, but unfortunately neither are accurate indicators of character potential. Until the (hopefully great) next patch, right now D3 struggles to compete at high level due to his speed, size, and frame data. Many of us would be glad to show you when we have that first Dedede Hangout Event! There's a lot more to say, but many great posts above this go into detail, please read them. Otherwise, welcome again to the boards!

 

[BulgeTremmor]

BulgeTremmor , it's good to see someone new on the boards! Thanks for jumping in and getting involved here, you've obviously made an effort to pick up conversations in multiple threads.

That said, two things for you.

• First: please watch this. The D3 boards are no stranger to the potential of Gordo and its traps. Girthquake is being incredibly polite to you, he knows his stuff, I wouldn't tell him to research D3 setups until you've seen his youtube channel.
• Second, it's apparent that you haven't played much competitively with D3. I love your passion for the King - we need it! - but we won't improve our D3 play unless we're realistic. We have some incredible D3s on this board, and most have played in tourneys - and all are acutely aware of D3's frame data weaknesses. You've probably played a lot of For Glory/3DS/with local friends, but unfortunately neither are accurate indicators of character potential. Until the (hopefully great) next patch, right now D3 struggles to compete at high level due to his speed, size, and frame data. Many of us would be glad to show you when we have that first Dedede Hangout Event! There's a lot more to say, but many great posts above this go into detail, please read them. Otherwise, welcome again to the boards!

Thank you so much for the warm welcome, SoulTrain. As a matter of fact, you actually served as one of my greatest inspirations when I was researching Gordo setups and followups. Your bracket matches were a tremendous sight to behold that showcased your creativity with Gordo traps and followups. Your Gordo video, which I have watched many a time, is a great showcase of the possibilities of Gordo. However, not to toot my own horn or anything, I feel I do have an expansive knowledge on the subject of Gordo followups and traps.

I would very much like to showcase my skill to you in anyway possible. Unfortunately meeting up would be quite a hassle. I would, however, very much enjoy to play some friendlies with you online during the Dedede Hangout session. I do hope you'll accept my humble offer and allow me to play with you and maybe participate in one of the tournaments.

 

[TimG57867]

Hello. I am no King Dedede main, but King Dedede is the heavy I have most fun playing as (plus I am a big Kirby fan in general so that helps).


On the topic of things to improve, another problem King Dedede has is one that he shares with Kirby: he's got no effective kill throws. On the 3DS Final Destination in training mode, his Forward Throw and Back Throw couldn't kill on the very edge until 180-190%. By comparison, 's Back Throw got the job done at 140%. While King Dedede has a lot of hard hitting moves, they aren't always easy to land and while Inhale is a great way to get around shields, you'll rarely get kills off it in neutral unless the opponent has a bad recovery or you make a good read. I feel that if they made his Forward and Back Throws stronger with more horizontal trajectory, it'd make it much easier for D3 to close out stocks in a pinch.

 

[Deleted member]

Hello. I am no King Dedede main, but King Dedede is the heavy I have most fun playing as (plus I am a big Kirby fan in general so that helps).


On the topic of things to improve, another problem King Dedede has is one that he shares with Kirby: he's got no effective kill throws. On the 3DS Final Destination in training mode, his Forward Throw and Back Throw couldn't kill on the very edge until 180-190%. By comparison, 's Back Throw got the job done at 140%. While King Dedede has a lot of hard hitting moves, they aren't always easy to land and while Inhale is a great way to get around shields, you'll rarely get kills off it in neutral unless the opponent has a bad recovery or you make a good read. I feel that if they made his Forward and Back Throws stronger with more horizontal trajectory, it'd make it much easier for D3 to close out stocks in a pinch.

Agreed. Also, his up throw needs to be a kill move solely for how hilarious it is.

 

[XakYm]

What use is there for it other than disrespect? And healing small percents from certain physical projectiles

Its a good spacing tool, Whenever I punish an approach I B reverse and shoot 'em of stage. But you pretty much have to get a good read and be unpredictable which is pretty hard since we don't have many moves that's usefull

 

[Mr.PersonSir]

Its a good spacing tool, Whenever I punish an approach I B reverse and shoot 'em of stage. But you pretty much have to get a good read and be unpredictable which is pretty hard since we don't have many moves that's usefull

Yeah I know that now I was facing some guy who kept using that move to get stage control on anthers ladder. The main problem with it is the horrible end lag on it.

 

[XakYm]

Yeah I know that now I was facing some guy who kept using that move to get stage control on anthers ladder. The main problem with it is the horrible end lag on it.

I'm putting him on the side in favor of my other characters due to these hurtfull weaknesses. Hope for these Ike Buffs dude.

 

[DaPlatinumTrim]

I personally believe D3's biggest flaws are not having moves you can just throw out, and have safe poking moves. Ftilt is relatively safe if spaced properly as you can usually get a Dtilt out before you're punished, what really makes me mad is D3's jab he suffers from not having a hitbox on his body at all times along with having his opponent jump or DI out of it and leaving you in a bad position. Inhale is one of D3's best options due to generally people believe you're only landing options are Nair and a spaced Bair but landing above someone with Inhale is a great option.

Also I've been raining D3 since Smash 4 came out but never decided to come here till now.

 

[Silly Symphony]

If you want to know how bad of frame data D3 has, just try and fight a defensive Captain Falcon. You know the one, the ones that constantly dash forward and jump-salto backward. The moment your D3 does his jab or Ftilt, Falcon goes is for the grab, Dthrow and juggle into knee, and there's little if anything D3 can do about that.

I'm up to the point where ZZS are becoming predictable to me in every situation that they're becoming relatively easy, but defensive C. Falcon are a definitive No-No to me.

D3's weaknesses become all immediately apparent in this MU: Bad frame data, no kill confirms that don't rely on punishing mistakes, and difficulty getting in. Thank Sakurai for giving Ike and DK a few speedy moves, giving ROB more defensive, harassing missiles, giving DK and Bowser more super armor moves and shield-breaking moves with less upstart and cooldown, and literally every character a spike (or multiple) that takes much less skill and perfection to perform.

My personal vendetta is against Yoshi's stupid safe, stupid looking, stupid hard to tech, combo-into-a-kill-move Sneeze-Meteor. It's existence is an insult to D3's skill-requirement. Seriously, Big-Nose's sneeze has a meteor, but downward hammer smash doesn't?

 

[Deleted member]

I just wanna say, good lord, can they please make the hitboxes for forward air and back air match the animation? It's maddening how many times those moves miss the opponent when they shouldn't.

 

[Axel311]

I just wanna say, good lord, can they please make the hitboxes for forward air and back air match the animation? It's maddening how many times those moves miss the opponent when they shouldn't.

Seriously. That fix alone would be a significant buff for D3.