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What are the differences Between Melee Luigi and PM Luigi ?

kireavan

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
27
Location
Los Angeles California, Sun Valley
title is self explanatory, I main luigi in melee but when I play him in PM he just doesn't feel the same, he feels really different and I would like a explanation or a list on the differences between the two.

Thanks.
 

Riceykins

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
16
PM has an extra 1 frame buffer so when your wavedashing it'll feel different.
His misfire is a lot slower but can be stored by holding shield while flashing.
Down b is easier to mash and doesn't need to be charged on the ground to be used as a recovery option, if started on the ground can gain height easily for combos.
Something I've been feeling while learning melee luigi is it seems his wavedashes carry momentum better when wavelanding from platforms in melee but it might be imaginary.
Luigi's fireball is also a lot more useable and can be wavelanded from a short hop.
 
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Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
PM has an extra 1 frame buffer so when your wavedashing it'll feel different.
PM doesn't have a buffer as far as I'm aware, but it does have a universal one frame delay on all momentum calculations.

The timing for wavedashing is still the same, but you have one extra frame to release the jump button in order to perform a short hop (Melee checked whether you were holding the jump button on the second-to-last possible frame of jumpsquat, whereas Project M checks on the last frame). This is a universal change and is separate from the momentum calculation delay.

Luigi's physics feel significantly different; I'm not sure what it is, but it seems to have something to do with the different way that Project M handles momentum changes (not just the momentum calculation delay, but I'm just guessing). To me, he feels a lot worse and harder to control, though a lot of that is just because of being more used to Melee and preferring the feel of Melee's physics in general. Certain things feel more different than others (like wavedash back->walk forwards). Besides this he hasn't actually received very many changes, just a few significant ones:

• Fireball has much less ending lag, making it possible to waveland it from a short hop (though with somewhat strict timing).

• Down tilt doesn't pop up anymore. It now does more damage, extremely low knockback, and extra shield damage while having less ending lag.

• Tornado requires less mashing to reach maximum height and doesn't need charging anymore. You can also rise with it from the ground (in which case the mashing is easier than when starting in the air). I would say this is by far the most significant buff to Luigi; it makes the tornado a much more effective combo tool, makes it better against shields and crouch cancelling since you can rise and throw out a safe aerial or retreat after you hit your opponent, and makes it a better approaching tool in general since your approach now leads into combos much more easily and is less risky on shield and crouch cancel while still clanking out half your opponents moves like in Melee.

• The misfire now works like Russian roulette; one in every six missiles is always misfire, and after a misfire is used, then the missiles are "reloaded". When you're charging a missile, if it is going to be a misfire then Luigi will flash green. Holding the shield button as you release the missile will store the misfire (you can do this as many times as you want). Misfires also have a lower top speed and may or may not accelerate more slowly. Misfires have extremely low priority (they will clank with just about anything), but I'm not sure if this was in Melee too since it's hard to test and misfire clanks don't come up very often in normal play.

• Luigi can sweetspot the ledge with a missile.

• Luigi has much more aerial control after an up-B (allowing him to land on stage after using an up-B from below the ledge), and can also grab the ledge from behind him after it.

• Dash attack may or may not be better somehow.

• I cannot perform platform drop cancel nairs (while I can do them moderately consistently in Melee), so either the execution is different somehow, they no longer exist, or I'm just incompetent.
 
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Broasty

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
252
Location
Orlando, Florida
• Dash attack may or may not be better somehow.

• I cannot perform platform drop cancel nairs (while I can do them moderately consistently in Melee), so either the execution is different somehow, they no longer exist, or I'm just incompetent.
Dash attack is super useful for punishing dingus's who think they can CC next to the ledge by pushing them off. If you know the matchup, you can set your self up for a finishing Dair or Bair.

Believe it or not, the window for Shield drops are more lenient in Melee compared to Brawl and PM, as such it's understandable why you're having trouble when using Melee muscle memory.

Continuing on:

Bair and FTilt (Upper Angle does extra knockback, Lower Angle does more shield damage) have drastically improved knockback, making them a more viable neutral game punish.

Throw animations are faster.

You can Wave Bounce with Fireballs (AND Waveland it).

Wave Scuttle (only towards the left direction atm)

Footstool allows you to punish scrubs who think they can just shield grab you when you drop from above. This allows you to Footstool->Waveland->Grab for essentially a "Command Grab".

You can taunt cancel on the ledge (you'd be surprised what kind of mind games you can do when you're edge guarding).

Fastest means of moving in one direction is Alternating WDing and Dashes due to the game physics.

Instant Getup (Ledge Release->Backflip->Waveland) timing requires faster input and if you want the optimal distance you have to be very precise to release but not move away from ledge (the input requires a very small translational input on the Stick).

To be honest, I do think that momentum lag does make Melee Luigi a tad more smooth in terms of movement, but really overall I personally love PM Luigi, you'll see next year him being called "top-tier". ;)
 
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Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
Believe it or not, the window for Shield drops are more lenient in Melee compared to Brawl and PM, as such it's understandable why you're having trouble when using Melee muscle memory.
I know shield drops are different, but by "platform drop cancel nair" I mean this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn7ZdA-dTx4

Also, are there any videos of your Luigi? You seem to really love this character and you're always ready with the in-depth theory, so I'm sure people will be able to learn a lot from it.
 
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Broasty

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
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252
Location
Orlando, Florida
I know shield drops are different, but by "platform drop cancel nair" I mean this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn7ZdA-dTx4

Also, are there any videos of your Luigi? You seem to really love this character and you're always ready with the in-depth theory, so I'm sure people will be able to learn a lot from it.
Woah that's freaking awesome!

As for videos, I managed to find a CRT with a Video component output, all I need is a capture card for my computer. Believe me, I've been wanted to make videos for awhile haha. I was also at CEO a while back and sat in the stream seat...but for some reason they weren't recording. :p
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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3,303
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does dsmash have less ending lag/does usmash have less startup because dsmash to usmash at lower percents is a thing in pm while it seems to not be a thing in melee

I'm like 90 percent sure dsmash has a few less frames of lag than in melee
 

Cubelarooso

Smash Lord
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Mar 19, 2007
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Dsmash is the same. Usmash has the same startup and but extra active frames, but because of the animation it should actually hit in front later. No difference in hitbox properties either. Are you using it on the same characters in both games?
 

Mr.Pickle

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He also has 5 frames of invincibility, starting on frame 13, on his side b. Looks pretty convenient for you guys considering the last frame it's invincible the hitbox comes out.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
608
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Luigi's platform game overall is better, allowing him to keep his wavedash momentum when he phases through a platform and attack with any aerial. It sort of makes up for his awful air speed and is a very, very good tool for approaches. He can't really do this in melee. I can link you a video where it shows this. Although i really don't want to as it was about 10 months ago and i was awful then. I'll link it, whatever. Go to 5:42- 5:47 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW87Dd2PoJE and notice how I go from the right platform to the left side of the stage. This is 3.0, but you can do this in 3.5 too. And you can go farther if you have a full waveland. All chars with a good wavedash can do this, but luigi's is the most effective. Also I played horribly that set (still won, but i'm much, much better now).

Luigi can also hold R or L while facing away from ledge and carry the wavedash movement with him, allowing you to go extremely far and close to the side blastzones and finish your opponent with a back air. It's very akin to a vududash except it's easier to do (although vududash isn't too hard) and the only aerial you can really use is bair (you can jump out of this after about half a second and bair)

Luigi is also able to wavescuttle, essentially an extremely fast and funny looking crawl. Basically you do a full wavedash forward, and then crawl backwards (crawling from right to left), allowing you to keep the wd momentum. It's kind of like a regular wavedash back but is a bit faster and allows you to avoid projectiles that the opponent might shoot (reflected fireballs from a nayru for example). You can also do smash attacks a bit faster this way.

Vududash is still possible

Luigi's down b is much better. You don't have to charge it, it's easier to rise with it (much easier) and it's a great onstage approac option. You can also rise with it on the ground and follow up with an aerial. 3.0's cyclone was the best as it had less ending lag, but this one is great, as well. I've gotten a lot of tornado to misfire combos hehe.

Misfire is a bit weird. One in every six green missile will give you a misfire (you can store the misfire as well). This makes recovery a lot better as you are free to choose when to use the misfire (although it takes away some randomness and surprise). It's also a great combo finisher when combined with your regular aerials. It's a great change but i hear a lot of complaints about it being too cheap. Thing is the hitbox is on luigi's neck, so any hitbox or projectile stops it dead on its tracks. It's also slower and does less knockback.

Fireballs are a lot better. They go a farther distance, are bigger, and have less endlag. You can sh fireball -> to waveland, which is an amazing tool for approaches (timing is strict however).

Platform cancel aerials are a bit harder to do as the timing is a lot faster. I also find ledgedasing in PM tougher than in melee for some reason, but it's easy once you get the hang of it.

Up B now has horizontal movement, so it's easier to use for recovery and escape punishment if you whiff. as you have a much better chance ledge cancelling it. Up b also seems easier to hit with now. Out of shield up b's are so nice, it also seems to go higher than melee's and has less landing lag.

Dtilt has been changed as it doesn't pop the opponent up anymore. but is a mr saturn type move that does more damage. It does 15% no matter what, has no knockback, and does considerable shield damage. It's also great for jab resets as you can rack up damage with it and finish with an up b once the opponent gets up. Great change.

Dash attack is also much better. It's not really unsafe on shield anymore as it does considerable shield damage, and it's no longer really unsafe on hit because the opponent is knocked back. It's great and a much needed change.

Side B can grab ledge but you have to be directly underneath the ledge.

Luigi in general is a lot better in my opinion. His platform game, punish game/combo game have drastically improved, and his approach options aren't so limited anymore. I do think that he still loses to a lot of matchups, but if he puts in the work, he can still do really well. I put him a solid mid tier right now comparatively to the rest of the cast.
 
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Xykness

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XYKman
Luigi is a god in this game. He has so many buffs compared to Melee Luigi. Vaporeon pretty much covered it all. He still struggles against certain characters such as Fox though.
 
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Johnohue

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Messages
35
Another thing no one has really talked about are his grabs. When you grab someone u smash likeding you'll keep sliding; you would immediately stop in melee. His throws also aren't as good in PM. All of his throws can be DI-ed behind him and he won't get any follow ups on anyone but spacies. Some characters can be hit with turn around dsmash at low percentages though. He does have guaranteed setups to misfire with throws on fast fallers though.

dsmash has a slower first hit in PM but hits longer. Not quite as useful if a combo tool as in melee because you can di behind him to get out most of the time, but it's still useful. Also if they crouch it at a low percent and don't tech if they flop, you can hit them with both hits.

Usmash is slower but hits behind him prety far. This makes for good wavedash back usmash approaches. It pushes both of you back far enough that you can't punish it off of shield.

Luigi is also able to do ariels more easily due to the change tl to iasa from melee. This makes it so that you can short hop double fair and still double jump. Or short hop double bair. Really useful for consistent shield pressure given luigi is about smothering your opponent.

and yes invincible ledge dash is much harder in PM with luigi. This is because of his collision boxes pushing him away from the stage. The best way in pm is to fall away from the stage by holding away (not down). In melee though the best way was to fall away by holding down since the air physics are different in melee and pm.

not sure if melee luigi has invincibility on some of his up b, but he has it in pm much like luigi missile.
 
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