What if Ultimate had more dev time?

Perkilator · Jan 1, 2023

I got this thread idea from a post by

TCT~Phantom in the Next Smash thread:

TCT~Phantom said:
One fun idea I had is this Smash what if: What if Ultimate had that extra year of development time? Here are my rules/guidelines for Ultimate in this scenario.

1. We still only get two fighters passes. Our DLC characters top our at 11 or 12 depending on if Plant makes the base game.
2. In terms of unique characters, the base game might get somewhere between 4-new ones in this scenario. Echos idk, that’s up to your judgement.
3. I doubt in this scenario EiH is gonna suddenly not happen just because we move the release date from 12/8/18 to 12/8/19 or so. I’d assume broadly speaking the characters that made it into ultimate, for better or for worse, won’t make it.

So that’s the lens for this what it. I’ll give my thoughts.

I am gonna be a bit boring for the base game and just say that we get Plant, Min Min, and Aegis in the base game instead of during the DLC lifespan. Arms and Xenoblade 2 mainly didn’t make it into the base game due to timing. With that extra year of time, I do not think they would have as many issues there. Plant also does seem to have been worked on earlier than the other DLC characters, so I will just put her in the base game.

One of the only base game characters I think is in true danger to get the axe is Incineroar. In this timeline, Gen 8 would be coming out right before the new smash and I think there is a very good likelihood that instead of the cat we get a Gen 8 Pokémon. Out of the Gen 8 roster, I think Cinderace would be the pick in this hypothetical scenario. As for when Ken gets revealed, idk. Maybe he gets in this trailer or someone else’s, who knows.

For my last pick or two, I wanted to go with some picks that had reasonably high demand. I also wanted to have one first party and one third party character be the picks. You could honestly slot any reasonably popular first party in this slot imo. I went with Isaac for the base game. As for third party, I did not want to just assume Nintendo could negotiate with someone entirely new, so I limited myself to the companies that were in Smash during Ultimate’s lifespan. For this, I ultimately went with the Dragonborn. I debated between the Mii costumes in the Kazuya reveal since they all had their popularity noted. I almost went with Lloyd over him. Stages would probably be Venus Lighthouse and the Throat of the World. Choosing a Skyrim stage was hard but I thought the aesthetic of the mountain was neat.

Real quick as for echoes, I’m just gonna add a small number. Shadow, Dixie Kong, and Galacta Knight are my picks. I don’t have much to say on these. I guess I’d stick Shadow in the reveal trailer for Dovakhin or Isaac, idk.

Finally, DLC changes a good bit with the timetable changed. I think that some things that missed the mark content wise are more likely to get content with their characters. Maybe we get FFVII remake and Persona 5 Royal music for example. The meatier thing is that now we have two open dlc slots with Aegis and Min Min being in the base game. I think the main candidates are first party characters that would or did have big successes on the switch. My picks here are Officer Howard and Bandana Dee. I guess I would do Zone 36 as Astral Chain’s stage, predominately based on the Eastside Highway. Bandana Dee you can do either Waddle Dee Town or Alivel mall. I think Forgotten Land content would be fine given the timeframe we are working with for this game. If Sakurai could get work on Byleth done before that game even launched, I don’t doubt he could do it for a different first party.

TLDR: our base roster loses Incineroar and gets Cinderace, Isaac, Dovakhin, Aegis, Min Min, and Plant as unique picks and a couple echos. We also get Plant and Officer Howard as DLC.

And so I wanted to make my own interpretation of an SSBU with an extra year of dev time. Just a few things I want to make clear:

Everyone is Here! is still going to be a thing, so the only changes will be for characters who specifically made their Smash debut in Ultimate.
There will still only be two Fighters Passes.
I didn't make this thread with the intention of being realistic. You're free to express your own ideas in this thread.

With that out of the way, here we go:

Unique fighters
- #64: Inkling
- #65: Simon
- #66: Ridley
- #67: King K. Rool
- #68: Isabelle
- #69: Incineroar
- #70: Piranha Plant
- #71-72: Pyra / Mythra
- #73: Bandana Waddle Dee
- #74: Min-Min
- #75: Banjo & Kazooie
Echo Fighters
- #4ε: Dark Samus
- #13ε: Daisy
- #40ε: Alph
- #56ε. Celica
- #60ε: Ken
- #65ε: Richter

Modes

Group
- Vs. Mode
- Squad Strike
- Tourney
- Special Smash
  - Smashdown
  - Super Sudden Death
  - Coin Smash
  - Custom Smash
Solo
- Arcade
  - Classic Mode (plays more like the 3DS game)
  - Story Mode (each fighter has a predetermined route)
  - All-Star (opponents are fought by game of debut)
- Stadium
  - Home-Run Contest
  - Volleyball
  - Mob Smash
    - Century Smash
    - Rival Smash
    - Cruel Smash
  - Boss Battles
- Creative Corner
  - Mode Builder (create your own Target Test and Story route here)
  - Stage Builder
  - Mii Fighters
Spirits
- World of Light
- Spirit Board
- Collection
- DLC Spirit Boards
Online
- With Anyone
  - For Fun
  - For Glory
- With Friends
- Online Tourney
  - Regular
  - Event
- Spectate
- Shared Content
Vault
- Sounds
- Replays
  - Video Editor
- Records
  - Stats
  - Milestones
  - Battle Data
  - Smash Tags
  - Past Opponents
- Challenges
- Tips
- Movies
- Shop
- amiibo
Dashboard
- Return to Main Menu
- Collection
- Local Wireless
- Training
- News
- Options
- Help

You choose an alternate path out of three choices after Stage 1, with special conditions for certain stages.

Stage 1	Stage 2	Stage 3	Bonus 1	Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6	Bonus 2	Stage 7	Final Stage
		Stage 3	HOME	Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6		Stage 7
	Stage 2	Stage 3		Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6	VOLLEY	Stage 7
Stage 1	Stage 2	Stage 3	RUN	Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6			Final Stage
	Stage 2	Stage 3		Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6	BALL	Stage 7
		Stage 3	CONTEST	Stage 4	Stage 5	Stage 6		Stage 7

Difficulty settings:
- Very Easy
- Easy
- Normal
- Hard
- Very Hard
Possible battles in Stages 1-6:
- 1v1
- 2v2
- 3v1 against a Giant opponent
- 4v4
- 8-player free-for-all
A Bonus game occurs after every three stages
Stage 7 sees you fighting a different boss:
- Giga Bowser
- Galleom
- Ganon
- Marx
- Ho-Oh
- Rathalos
- Dracula
- Gruntilda
Stage 8 sees you fighting a different Hand depending on the conditions:
- If you played normally on any difficulty, you fight Master Hand
- If you went without losing a life, you fight Crazy Hand
- If you went without losing a life on Normal or higher, you fight both Hands

Areas & sub-areas

Light Realm
- Molten Fortress
- Power Plant
- Temple of Light
- Base
- World Tour
- Forest Hill
- DK Island
- Gourmet Race
Dark Realm
- Sacred Land
- Mysterious Dimension
- Dracula's Castle
- Grunty's Furnace Fun
The Final Battle

Bosses

Master Hand
- Light Realm (after you defeat four bosses)
- The Final Battle (where you free him)
Crazy Hand
- Dark Realm (after you defeat four bosses)
- The Final Battle (where you free him)
Galeem
- Light Realm (after you defeat Master Hand)
- The Final Battle
Dharkon
- Dark Realm (after you defeat Crazy Hand)
- The Final Battle
Giga Bowser (Molten Fortress)
Galleom (Base)
Ho-Oh (Temple of Light)
Rathalos (Forest Hill)
Ganon (Sacred Land)
Marx (Mysterious Dimesnion)
Dracula (Dracula's Castle)
Gruntilda (Grunty's Furnace Fun)

New Donk City Hall
Great Plateau Tower
Clash at Castle Dedede
Melemele Island
Garreg Mach Monastery
Cloud Sea of Alrest
Moray Towers
Spring Stadium
Dracula’s Castle
Spiral Mountain

Vol. 1
- #76: Joker
- #77: Hero
- #78: Crash Bandicoot
- #79: Estelle Bright
- #80: Terry Bogard
- #81: Steve
Vol. 2
- #82: Byleth
- #83: Dr. Eggman
- #84: Sephiroth
- #85: Ring Fit Trainee
- #86: Kazuya
- #87: Sora

Fighters Pass
- Mementos
- Yggdrasil's Altar
- N. Sanity Beach
- Arseille
- King of Fighters Stadium
- Minecraft World
- Garreg Mach Monastery
- Dr. Eggman's Incredible Interstellar Amusement Park (shortened to "Egg Planet Park" in all regions
- Northern Cave
- Ring Fit Adventure
- Mishima Dojo
- Hollow Bastion
Free updates
- Final Destination (Melee)
- Midair Stadium

Labo VR
Smash Run

Oracle Link · Jan 2, 2023

Okay i try tro be semi Realistic so we get 4 Extra Characters for base game + Maybe some more polish on other sides Okay here we go:
Normal written is the same Under scored is rearranged Thick is New and both is a Favourite of mine!

Unique Newcomers

Inkling
Simon
Ridley
King K Rool
Melinda
Min Min
Banjo and Kazooie
Hero
Edelgard
Rex
Cider Ace
Bandana Waddle Dee

Echos

Daisy
Dark Samus
Ken
Richter
Black Knight (Ike Echo)
Impa (Shiek Echo)

Stage Editor and Home Run are now in the base game
and new
MAKE YOUR TARGET SMASH

New Donk City Hall
Great Plateau Tower
Moray Towers
Dracula’s Castle
Spring Stadium
Cloud Sea of Alrest
Spiral Mountain
The DQ Stage i forgor
Ganons Tower (OOT)
Clash at Castle Dedede

Pre Order Character:
Octorock

Alt Costume:

1. Fighters Pack
Joker
Mementos

2. Fighters Pack
Terry Bogard
KOF Tourney

3. Fighters Pack
Steve
Minecraft World

4. Fighters Pack
Sephiroth
Northern Crater

5. Fighters Pack
Kazuya
Mishima Dojo

6. Fighters Pack
Sora
Hollow Bastion

7. Fighter Pack
Dark Matter

Terminus Caelis

8. Fighters Pack
Shantae
Scuttle Town Siege

9. Fighters Pack
Dr. Eggman
The Death Egg

10. Fighters Pack
Crash
Jungle

11. Fighters Pack
The Human

Snowdin

Level Creator using the stage builder!
World Of Light Very Easy, Very Hard and Extreme Difficultys!
Smash Run with a ton of customization!
And Playable Smash run enemys and wol Bosses!

Huff Puff im done!

nirvanafan · Jan 3, 2023

Base Roster Additions

: think we would have gotten 1 new 3rd party fighter, remembering the passion behind in the presentation video & that fp 1 was determined before the game released i believe Terry would have been the one prioritized for base roster.

,

/

Black Shadow would be added, not classified as an echo but not really a full newcomer, is kind of the return of melee Ganondorf.

Echoes: Dixie Kong, Shadow

Bonus DLC Fighter:

FP1:

,

,

, Rillaboom

FP2: Andy,

,

, DJ Octavio, Dante,

Homerun Contest & maybe Stage Builder are in base game.

I think the race to the finish thing we got in classic mode would have been bigger, maybe an extra stage or 2 & bonus challenges like defeating as many koopas spread out in the stage within a timelimit.

Formal Boss rush mode added post launch. Porky would have been an extra boss in base game plus maybe one more new boss (my guess would be something from Pikmin)

Coin Battles would have also came back at some point. Also more spirit battles in general

Additions/Changes

Base Game
Cloud Sea of Alrest
Spring Stadium
KoF Stadium
Alola Pokemon League
Gangplank Galleon
Crafted World
SR388
Happy Home Showcase
Meta Crystal
Order of Heroes (with Byleth being the bonus character think they may have went with something else that could rep fates & other entries in base game)

FP1
Galar Pokemon League

FP2
Cosmo Land
Deep Sea Metro
Temen Ni Gru

Perkilator · Jan 4, 2023

Changes to Spirit Battles

Shadow Queen
Broque Monsieur
Koume & Kotake
Mr. Shine & Mr. Bright
Latias & Latios
Alm & Celica
Kat & Ana
Phyllis & Pelly
Fiora -> Mecha-Fiora
Elma
Rex
Malos
Lora
Pnuema
Squid Sisters

Rattly
Gyarados
Rayquaza
Lurchthorn
Young Cricket
Dhalsim
Fei Long
Spring Man
Ribbon Girl
Ninjara
Master Mummy
Max Brass

Goomba
Enguarde
Moblin
Waddle Dee
Mr. Saturn
Jagen
Chao
Cait Sith

Chain Chomp
Petey Piranha
Petey Piranha (Super Mario Strikers)
Crayzee Dayzee
Whispy Woods
Weezing
Eggplant Wizard
Burrowing Snagret

Chargin’ Chuck
Loftwing
Pidgey
Chansey
Rapidash
Kangaskhan
Abomasnow
Bewear
Ultimate Chimera
Polar Bear
Frillard
Beat
Bear Hugger
Chocobo & Moogle
The Creature & Flea Man
Mumbo Jumbo

Zakawer2 · Jan 12, 2023

If Ultimate had extra development time, then the Echo Fighter label wouldn't exist at all; Daisy and Dark Samus would have fully-fledged unique movesets instead of being relegated to simple clones (yes, I believe that both could've potentially joined the roster without needing to be added as clones first); Chrom would've been more unique (though still somewhat similar to Marth, Roy and Ike, like how Isabelle is a semi-clone of Villager with noticeable similarities and clearly pronounced differences); Richter would've probably been an alt; we wouldn't have gotten Ken at all; and Kazuya and Sephiroth would've been base-roster newcomers, with movesets that remain similar to their current ones, but balanced much more similarly to the base roster (with all of their content integrated into the base game). Also, there would be better singleplayer content, with Home-Run Contest and Stage Builder hardwired into the base game, as well as the return of Coin Battles, actual Event Matches, Target Smash, and a Melee-styled retro Classic Mode.

Additionally, Bandana Waddle Dee and Dr. Eggman would take Sephiroth and Kazuya's respective Fighters Pass Vol. 2 slots.

BritishGuy54 · Jun 19, 2024

Okay, here’s my take.

64. Inkling
65. Ridley
66. Simon
67. King K. Rool
68. Isabelle
69. Incineroar
70. Min Min
71. Terry
72-73. Pyra & Mythra
74. Piranha Plant

Echoes:
04e. Dark Samus
13e. Daisy
21e. Lucina
25e. Chrom
28e. Dark Pit
60e. Ken
66e. Richter

New Donk City
Grand Plateau Tower
Dracula’s Castle
Moray Towers
Gangplank Galleon
Ultra Space
Spring Stadium
Cloud Sea of Alrest
King of Fighters Stadium

75. Joker
76. Hero
77. Banjo & Kazooie
78. Byleth
79. Kazuya

Mementos
Yggsdrasil
Spiral Mountain
Garreg Mach Monastery
Mishima Dojo

80. Ring Fit Trainee
81. Steve
82. Sephiroth
83. Paper Mario
84. Dr. Eggman
85. Sora

Dragaux Stadium
Minecraft World
Northern Cave
Autumn Mountain
Tropical Resort
Hollow Bastion

xavi223 · Jul 26, 2024

It's so much fun to imagine what could've been if Ultimate had more development time. I think it would've been amazing to see more stages from the GameCube era, or maybe even a new fighter from the Pokémon series.

KneeOfJustice99 · Jul 26, 2024

Alright, I'll bite. Note that I'm presuming the extra year of development time extends forward instead of backward - so instead of being a late 2018 release, Ultimate would instead be promoted and released throughout 2019, releasing in December of that year. However, design documentation and the like would still be finished up at the same time - specifically, December 2015.

First things first, everyone is here. That's the central conceit of this game to begin with, and I think it makes a lot of sense. There actually aren't many changes on that front. Echo Fighters are broadened a little bit, but not by much. I still think the concept of their inclusion makes sense in the context of the design document - allowing clones to be developed with less time overall.

As such, the newcomer lineup looks a little something like this.

Newcomers
64. Inkling
65. Ridley
66. Simon
67. Alucard - Revealed in the same Direct as Simon.
68. Takamaru - Revealed in the same Direct as Simon & Alucard.
69. King K. Rool
70. Steve - Revealed in his own Direct, not dissimilar to how Isabelle was originally a surprise reveal in a Direct.
71. Isabelle
72. Incineroar
73. Terry - Revealed in the same trailer that revealed Incineroar and Ken.

Echo Fighters
04ε. Dark Samus
13ε. Daisy
21ε. Lucina
25ε. Chrom
28ε. Dark Pit
40ε. Alph - Is revealed alongside Isabelle.
56ε. Celica - Is revealed alongside Chrom.
60ε. Ken
66ε. Richter

I'll explain my logic here;

Alucard was a character considered by Sakurai because of his popularity, but eventually shafted in favour of Simon (and Richter.) That said, I think there's a decent chance he'd have been bumped into a playable role with more time for development, given he already had assets made for his assist role.
Takamaru is picked mostly because of his role as a more outright self-indulgent Sakurai pick, being considered for Sm4sh but cut - leading to his assist role. In a world following his appearance in Sm4sh and Samurai Warriors, and in a larger roster overall, I can imagine them being on board for this.
Steve has been a character in discussion supposedly since as far back as 2015, and I think that makes him a pretty obvious candidate for a "mind-blowing" inclusion if this game releases on the earlier side of things.
Terry is another slightly "self-indulgent" pick, but actually also works well due to SNK's interest in working with Nintendo on stuff. Plus, it gives them the opportunity to lean into the Capcom vs. SNK thing in Incineroar/Ken/Terry's trailer.
Alph is mostly added because of the assets necessary for his inclusion essentially being right there on the table, ready to use. Beyond minor tweaks to his movement and damage, his main change is that he exclusively uses Rock and Ice Pikmin.
Celica works well as a popular Fire Emblem pick who could bring some mechanical uniqueness overall, while still working well if using Robin as a base. Due to Echoes likely being in development toward the latter stages of finalisation, I also think there's a certain promotional element there.

Then, Pirahna Plant is still the pre-order bonus character.

Likewise, there's a big focus on bringing everywhere (reasonable) back where possible - and on another note, I'd say that the Stage Builder would release at launch, and that the VR capabilities would do the same - but also work on 75m and Midgar. Beyond that...

New Stages

New Donk City Hall
Great Plateau Tower
Moray Towers
A Rhythm Heaven stage - Not sure of the specifics, but was apparently planned but removed in development.
Dracula's Castle
King of Fighters Stadium - In light of Terry being a base-roster pick.
Minecraft World - In light of Steve being a base-roster pick.
Small Battlefield - Just comes about from more time.

Returning (but new?) Stages

Miiverse - Planned to be brought back anyway.

might come back to dlc at some point

TheLastMaverickHunter · Aug 15, 2024

I don't have any ideas for a roster or extra modes at the moment, but I would have loved full remakes of 64's stages, like what Project M did.

What if Ultimate had more dev time?

Perkilator

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Oracle Link

Smash Master

nirvanafan

Smash Champion

Perkilator

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Zakawer2

Smash Rookie

BritishGuy54

Smash Ace

xavi223

Smash Rookie

KneeOfJustice99

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TheLastMaverickHunter

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