What Lucina means for Marth

[Dubble89]

From the looks of things, Lucina is a clone character with an identical (or near identical) moveset to Marth. She seems to be faster, with less landing lag (http:// gfycat.com/FineSentimentalGecko) than E3 Marth. I think it's safe to say that E3 Marth will be tweaked by the time of release, but Sakurai as a designer is forced to make a strong distinction in the feel of these two characters (Wolf's inclusion in Brawl forced Fox to designed as faster and weaker).

I'm a betting man, so here goes...

1. Lucina moves and feels like Melee Marth (yes I have high hopes of Smash4's overall speed). Yet she has Roy's sweetspot.

2. Marth is slower, most notably in the air. Packs definite KO power at his tip. He is less graceful, but more intelligent. Purely a defensive fighter. Expect terrible matchups with projectiles.

From a game design perspective, it makes sense that a rushdown variant would have the shorter sweetspot.

What do you all think?

 

[Binary Clone]

From today's post we have confirmation of a few things.

First, she is a clone of Marth with an identical moveset. She does not have Roy's sweetspot, or any sweetspot for that matter. Her attack strength is balanced throughout her sword.

From the little gameplay we've seen from Lucina compared to what we've seen of Marth, it looks like Lucina is also faster than Marth. That in mind, I'd guess that she's weaker and faster with less of a focus on spacing. Overall, I think this will work to her detriment unless the speed difference is fairly dramatic. The loss of tipper sweetspot is a substantial handicap to a Marth clone, and will severely hurt her KO power in general.

But if she and her moves are fast enough, she could be a character that can combo much more effectively than Sm4sh Marth, which also means a lot.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Unless the Marth in Smash Wii U has new ways to get KOs beside a tipper f-smash, poorly DI'd dancing blade, and reverse dolphin slash, he will suffer from a lot of terrible matchups and probably be low tier at best.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Marth will always have that lovely DAir spike with his tipper and I feel like even if Lucina is faster, the lack of a tipper will mean she will reap less rewards in general, even if she has more reach. Sure her KO power looks fine, she'll likely be a beginner's version of Marth and all that, but I feel like she still won't top the real deal, regardless of his slight range nerf.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, but who knows what the reality will be in theory vs in practice. Sheik was a "noob-friendly" character in Melee who turned out to actually have plenty of depth and take lots of skill at higher levels.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, there's no real way to tell. I feel like if they Lucina is exactly how I saw it, she'll be a lot easier to pick up and do well with, but a little less rewarding. Alternatively she could just outclass him. It's a shame I won't get to find out until like, 3 months from now : (.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I'm starting to wonder if Lucina will become the Brawl-type Marth, and Marth the type of fighter that Chrom should / could have been, which is the middle ground between Ike and Lucina

 

[Binary Clone]

The recent news from Famitsu says their strength and speed is nearly identical.

Unfortunately that means that Lucina almost definitely won't play as well as Marth on higher levels because same strength without tipper = weaker.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

The only case in which Lucina "means" something in regards to Marth is if the gameplay footage we saw of Lucina shows her to indeed be faster and less laggy than Marth's build at E3.

If what they said about them sharing the same speed (almost) is true, then that means Marth might have been rebuffed after E3.

 

[Sparklepower]

The main thing I"m worried about are the two characters being TOO similar. I'm fine with clones, some of them have become really huge characters for the smash franchise (i.e. Falco and Luigi), but I just don't want this to end up like a Mario vs. Dr. Mario situation where they're so similar, and one has such a clear competitive edge, that one of them becomes pointless to play on a competitive level.

I wish Sakurai would go more into depth for the differences, all he's really said so far is that Lucina is shorter and doesn't have tippers, which makes me worried if those were the only things he would say at the top of his head.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

The recent news from Famitsu says their strength and speed is nearly identical.

Unfortunately that means that Lucina almost definitely won't play as well as Marth on higher because same strength without tipper = weaker.

I don't think this is quite how it should be interpreted. The tipper has been removed and the entirety of Lucina's blade now does knockback/damage above that of Marth's non-tipper, but below his tipper. This means that the properties of all of her attacks will be affected and her playstyle will revolve less around spacing, but around getting as many attacks in as possible and rushing down the opponent. If she was *exactly* the same but without the tipper, then I'd agree - but that's not what Sakurai's getting at.

 

[FirestormNeos]

The recent news from Famitsu says their strength and speed is nearly identical.

Unfortunately that means that Lucina almost definitely won't play as well as Marth on higher levels because same strength without tipper = weaker.

It also makes her the more noob-friendly character, as players just getting into Smash won't have to make sure to hit things with the tip of the blade for KOs.

(Though yeah, possibly weaker)

 

[smashingDoug]

The recent news from Famitsu says their strength and speed is nearly identical.

Unfortunately that means that Lucina almost definitely won't play as well as Marth on higher levels because same strength without tipper = weaker.

so she is confirmed to be 100% clone

 

[FirestormNeos]

so she is confirmed to be 100% clone

I'd go with 99% clone and 1% Casualer.

I have no idea what I just said. Is "Casualer" even a word!?!

 

[TeaTwoTime]

so she is confirmed to be 100% clone

Probably more like 90-95%. Think Dr. Mario, Melee Falco, etc. Same movesets, but with different properties that have a larger effect on their playstyle.

 

[Binary Clone]

I mean, "clone" basically refers to two characters that have the same moveset, which certainly applies. Ganondorf is a clone of Captain Falcon, for example. They certainly play differently and have different strengths due to differences in speed or power, changes in their weight of fall speed, etc., but it is the moveset that makes the clone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that definition is the one we generally use, which makes Lucina a clone.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I mean, "clone" basically refers to two characters that have the same moveset, which certainly applies. Ganondorf is a clone of Captain Falcon, for example. They certainly play differently and have different strengths due to differences in speed or power, changes in their weight of fall speed, etc., but it is the moveset that makes the clone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that definition is the one we generally use, which makes Lucina a clone.

She's a clone, for sure. The thing that separates her from other clones is the way that she was built to be a costume and then given her own slot, but this doesn't change the fact that she is now a separate character with a cloned moveset.

 

[ellord]

I don't think this is quite how it should be interpreted. The tipper has been removed and the entirety of Lucina's blade now does knockback/damage above that of Marth's non-tipper, but below his tipper. This means that the properties of all of her attacks will be affected and her playstyle will revolve less around spacing, but around getting as many attacks in as possible and rushing down the opponent. If she was *exactly* the same but without the tipper, then I'd agree - but that's not what Sakurai's getting at.

At high level of competition, players know how to space especially with a sword user. So it means lucina is a weaker/casual version of Marth.

 

[adumbrodeus]

At high level of competition, players know how to space especially with a sword user. So it means lucina is a weaker/casual version of Marth.

Not necessarily, depending on movement options superior speed translates into effective zoning control. I mean look at melee fox.

Moot because they're supposed to have about the same speed/strength

 

[ellord]

Not necessarily, depending on movement options superior speed translates into effective zoning control. I mean look at melee fox.

Moot because they're supposed to have about the same speed/strength

My argument was based on what Sakurai said, i only consider tipping as the only difference in my argument. So movement option and speed is the same.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Even so, it's gonna depend entirely on combo potential and finishers, sweetspot does tend to give an advantage in the latter but not necessarily the former.

 

[ellord]

If its same speed and same range, combo will be the same. If the knocback is better on lucina she will does less combo at early pourcent. And like i said, at high level of competition, people know how to space especially with a character based on it. Sakurai said himself its a easier version of Marth. She can't outclass Marth in high level in this situation.

 

[Dragon1128]

depends just how much marth's damage is distributed when not hitting with the tip.

If lucina is sitting at 1-2% lower than marth if not at the tip, but 3-4% higher everywhere else or some crazy crap, with similar knockback, speed, weight, range(Honestly don't know if that's the case, don't know much about her.) etc. she's likely going to be better in most situations. Especially with people who get in your face. Admittedly though, I don't know much about Lucina. Haven't been following.

I really really doubt she'll end up being better if you know what you're doing, but you never know. They make some terrible decisions sometimes.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If its same speed and same range, combo will be the same. If the knocback is better on lucina she will does less combo at early pourcent. And like i said, at high level of competition, people know how to space especially with a character based on it. Sakurai said himself its a easier version of Marth. She can't outclass Marth in high level in this situation.

That's a very simplified view, having the same strength and speed doesn't mean the angles will be the same which is what primarily defines what combos are possible, and furthermore same average knockback doesn't mean same knockback on all their moves.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

depends just how much marth's damage is distributed when not hitting with the tip.

If lucina is sitting at 1-2% lower than marth if not at the tip, but 3-4% higher everywhere else or some crazy crap, with similar knockback, speed, weight, range(Honestly don't know if that's the case, don't know much about her.) etc. she's likely going to be better in most situations. Especially with people who get in your face. Admittedly though, I don't know much about Lucina. Haven't been following.

I really really doubt she'll end up being better if you know what you're doing, but you never know. They make some terrible decisions sometimes.

So basically, you're implying that the fact Lucina doesn't have the Tipper is what will make her better in the long run?

Personally, I'm not sure about them two. But what I do know is that if most people decide to use Marth then they might as well use Lucina, who will be able to handle herself fine without spacing, making her an all-round better choice than Marth /: Personally I hated Lucina in Awakening so I'm not inclined to use her. But I definitely do think that she's better overall than Marth now... and that's because she lacks the tipper.

EDIT: And nobody can say "hit with the tipper" because that's unreliable even to the best Marth users that I've seen. That's why I think Marth's non-tipper hits are going to be stronger than in Brawl, to make it so the user doesn't have to completely rely on tippers.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

We just can't accurately determine which will be "better" on the whole until we've seen them play. Sure, we could very safely state that a Marth that hits every tipper will be more successful, but pulling that off consistently just isn't a realistic prospect. There are bound to be moments where you hit non-tippers even if you have remarkable spacing. If Lucina's blade's knockback and damage are good enough to compensate for not having the slightly higher power of Marth's tipper, then she may very well see more success than Marth. It's just not possible to make a definitive analysis either way until we know more.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

We just can't accurately determine which will be "better" on the whole until we've seen them play. Sure, we could very safely state that a Marth that hits every tipper will be more successful, but pulling that off consistently just isn't a realistic prospect. There are bound to be moments where you hit non-tippers even if you have remarkable spacing. If Lucina's blade's knockback and damage are good enough to compensate for not having the slightly higher power of Marth's tipper, then she may very well see more success than Marth. It's just not possible to make a definitive analysis either way until we know more.

Yes, true. But it would be senseless to make a Marth clone without the tipper and not compensate for that. If the damage is even all around the blade as Sakurai had said, then the logical compensation would be higher damage than Marth's non-tipper as well as higher knockback. That would mean Lucina is much more versatile in which she doesn't have to rely on spacing to win. Not to mention her attacks are hypothetically better overall because of damage and knockback.

Well, Marth was able to beat his clone the first time, but not the second time unfortunately /:

Though I'm still just assuming. But unless they changed Marth completely I still believe Lucina is better. Who knows, maybe Marth's non-tippers now have better knockback. Maybe Sakurai's modeling Marth in a way that Tippers don't have to be relied on and serve as more of a critical hit.

 

[Sparklepower]

Yes, true. But it would be senseless to make a Marth clone without the tipper and not compensate for that. If the damage is even all around the blade as Sakurai had said, then the logical compensation would be higher damage than Marth's non-tipper as well as higher knockback. That would mean Lucina is much more versatile in which she doesn't have to rely on spacing to win. Not to mention her attacks are hypothetically better overall because of damage and knockback.

Well, Marth was able to beat his clone the first time, but not the second time unfortunately /:

Though I'm still just assuming. But unless they changed Marth completely I still believe Lucina is better. Who knows, maybe Marth's non-tippers now have better knockback. Maybe Sakurai's modeling Marth in a way that Tippers don't have to be relied on and serve as more of a critical hit.

In melee, one of the biggest things about Marth is that he could alternate between tipped and non-tipped attacks to perform different combos. For example, the Ken Combo, depending on the character and percentage, would sometimes be more effective with a tippered forward air into down air, and sometimes more effective with non-tippered forward air into down air. Not having that option could be a serious nerf for Lucina in terms of versatility and combo potential.

I really hope that Lucina has more changes, and is a lot more than just an "easy Marth." I don't really like the idea of a character being in game just to be introductory to another, because they would become absolutely pointless at high level play. As I've said before, think of the Dr. Mario vs Mario situation in melee, one was clearly better at high level play.

 

[ellord]

That's a very simplified view, having the same strength and speed doesn't mean the angles will be the same which is what primarily defines what combos are possible, and furthermore same average knockback doesn't mean same knockback on all their moves.

Same moveset mean same angle. More knocback mean better finisher but less combo. Also, she's is identical to Marth on anything but the tip and damage on the rest of the blade Sakurai said. It mean it's the same proportion of knocback on every move if we consider the damage change.

 

[ellord]

Yes, true. But it would be senseless to make a Marth clone without the tipper and not compensate for that. If the damage is even all around the blade as Sakurai had said, then the logical compensation would be higher damage than Marth's non-tipper as well as higher knockback. That would mean Lucina is much more versatile in which she doesn't have to rely on spacing to win.

It also mean a accurate Marth user especially with the hitbox tip increased will outclass a Lucina user. She's definitively a "easy marth". I just hope Sakurai will make more difference than just what he said.

 

[Binary Clone]

I think it's odd to assume that Lucina is going to be better at this point. It's been explicitly said that Lucina is an easier character to play than Marth. If Lucina is better overall, that seems indicative of bad balancing to me. Having more difficult execution for a lesser payoff would be awful balance.

At a high technical skill, with good balance, one would think Marth should be more powerful, otherwise the balance is kind of thrown.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

In melee, one of the biggest things about Marth is that he could alternate between tipped and non-tipped attacks to perform different combos. For example, the Ken Combo, depending on the character and percentage, would sometimes be more effective with a tippered forward air into down air, and sometimes more effective with non-tippered forward air into down air. Not having that option could be a serious nerf for Lucina in terms of versatility and combo potential.

I really hope that Lucina has more changes, and is a lot more than just an "easy Marth." I don't really like the idea of a character being in game just to be introductory to another, because they would become absolutely pointless at high level play. As I've said before, think of the Dr. Mario vs Mario situation in melee, one was clearly better at high level play.

Yeah I agree, Marth's Melee abilities were amazing for the fact that the non-tipped hits actually meant something. But in Brawl, I feel like Marth has no pay-off unless you take advantage of his tipper which is pretty difficult to do even for the best Marth-players.

I think the Tipper should serve as more of a critical hit than serve as his entire game, especially with Lucina defying the tipper. That could be the thing that he has over Lucina. Lucina can deal more damage overall while Marth can deal less damage on non-tippers but with just as good knockback (plus the higher damage on tipper).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Same moveset mean same angle. More knocback mean better finisher but less combo. Also, she's is identical to Marth on anything but the tip and damage on the rest of the blade Sakurai said. It mean it's the same proportion of knocback on every move if we consider the damage change.

Same moveset means clone status, same strength and speed means generally the same level of mobility and same average knockback.

They are not gonna be 100% identical except one has tippers and one doesn't and which will actually be more powerful depends on the release character.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

The bright side is... on the minimal games I got to see Marth in, it definitely looks like Marth has gained knockback on non-tippers compared to Brawl. Maybe we'll get to see more on Marth tomorrow.

 

[ellord]

Same moveset means clone status, same strength and speed means generally the same level of mobility and same average knockback.

They are not gonna be 100% identical except one has tippers and one doesn't and which will actually be more powerful depends on the release character.

This is exactly what im trying to say since the beginning, she's identical on everything but the tipper.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Unless the Marth in Smash Wii U has new ways to get KOs beside a tipper f-smash, poorly DI'd dancing blade, and reverse dolphin slash, he will suffer from a lot of terrible matchups and probably be low tier at best.

have you even played brawl?