What would you change about Greninja?

[Jaguar360]

What would you like to see changed about Greninja in a future Smash 4 update or in the next game? This can relate to anything: his moveset, customs, alternate costumes, voice, etc.

Personally, I would like:

• A new forward tilt: I think having his kick replaced with a quick tongue whip would be highly beneficial to Greninja's neutral. A new fast ground option with good range would be a godsend.
• Less lag on shurikens: The nerf to Water Shuriken's lag in Smash 4 was highly detrimental to Greninja and it would be great for it to be reversed. Greninja needs more safe options at long and mid range.
• Improved standing grab: Greninja's grabs have odd properties. The have pretty good range for a non-tether grab, but his standing grab is slower than even most dash and pivot grabs. It should either be sped up to be closer to his dash grab or get improved range to be better.
  
• An Izuna Drop: Without Ryu Hayabusa in Smash, my Izuna cravings continue to grow. Having one of his throws changed to an Izuna would make my day. Both Greninja's throw animations and rewards are pretty average and an Izuna Drop would certainly spice things up in that area.

 

[FullMoon]

I really just want pre-1.0.4 shurikens back. Maybe a better standing grab and a slightly better frame data, but overall I just want shurikens.

 

[Coffee™]

What ^ said.

 

[Kikaioh]

I wish he just had overall less lag on his moves. Especially off of his neutral air (over the edge sometimes can be a death sentence).

 

[joaoTforce]

honestly just a better f-tilt and shurikens. Also, waaaayyy back I predicted ryu hayabusa,only to get disappointed. However, we got the ninja frog greninja! So I'm completely fine. Now that I think about it, strider might be even better than ryu.

 

[David Galanos]

I'm fine with how he is, less laggy shurikens would be nice

 

[Talazala]

I can agree on the shurikens. Care to explain why no one is fond of the standing grab? I rather like his grab because it feels like a small, fast tether to me, kind of like marth's grab in melee but smaller and a little weird. Also I like his ftilt a lot.
I must be crazy.

 

[David Galanos]

I can agree on the shurikens. Care to explain why no one is fond of the standing grab? I rather like his grab because it feels like a small, fast tether to me, kind of like marth's grab in melee but smaller and a little weird. Also I like his ftilt a lot.
I must be crazy.

His standing grab is a little slow

 

[Spirst]

I can agree on the shurikens. Care to explain why no one is fond of the standing grab? I rather like his grab because it feels like a small, fast tether to me, kind of like marth's grab in melee but smaller and a little weird. Also I like his ftilt a lot.
I must be crazy.

It has a 14 frame startup. The average grab is 6-8 frames which makes Greninja's pretty slow and hampers his OoS options as well as just being a bad grab for a character with already meh frame data yet has the mobility of a speedster. To top it off, it's not even a fully fledged tether grab either which would at least make up for the slow startup.

 

[chuckthesmashlover]

I would like to see less lag in its attacks in general.

 

[Plague_2]

I'd like to see less lag on his Water Shurikens, a more reliable counter, and a better combo-breaking move. Nair and fair are a bit slow to get out of combos. Also, let us cancel his dair with Hydro Pump.

 

[Funkermonster]

• A better counter that maybe comes out faster
• Improved Ftilt
• Decrease startup on grab
• Change Uair back to the way it was.

That's it, really.

 

[Shack]

- Remove the bounce off a wall when you Hydro Pump into it
- Speed up FAir so it comes out sooner, or increase the knock back/damage
- Match his grab frames to the actual animation
- Shield cancel shurikens and/or shadow sneak

EDIT:
- Remove the float effect when using DAir with upward momentum
- Something else too, but I forgot

 

[Inger]

Substitute needs to come out faster, definitely. I'm pretty happy with his grabs honestly. His standing grab is trash but his pivot and dash grabs have good range and interesting sliding properties, which I feel balances it out. Hydropumping horizontally is always scary. Its so stupid that he bounces off instead of autograbbing the ledge. I think uptilt should cover more range, as well.

 

[Lavani]

1.0.0 Shurikens. 1.0.0 fair and/or uair would be nice too but are less necessary.

 

[Chandeelure]

-Faster Shurikens.
-A better Up Air.
-Faster Down Air.
-More powerful Forward Air.
-A faster or at least more powerful Forward Tilt.
-His Substitute needs to be like Pac-Man's Hydrant (if you attack it, it becomes a powerful projectile).

 

[mimgrim]

All I really want is less landing lag on Shuriken. Maybe a more powerful Fair. Anything else is unnecessary really.

 

[Makani]

-Less lag on Shurikens (definitely need better projectiles to keep up with other speedsters that happen to require less commitment than Greninja)
-Remove UpB bouncing off edges instead of sweetspotting (the most frustrating thing ever)
-Faster FTilt (it's basically useless as-is)
-Faster NAir with less aerial lag (good way to SD off-stage)
-Longer lasting active frames for Substitute (the activation frames for substitute are way too short taking into consideration other counter-type moves, looking at you Shulk... Mac...)

That's basically all Greninja needs TBH, would be great to get even ONE of these things... Better nerf Greninja some more .</sarcasm>

 

[ephOE]

- Less lag on Shuriken
- Faster standing grab

Are the biggest two offenders for me. I actually like F tilt because it's faster than F Smash and solves so range issues against characters like Bowser than have much longer reach than Greninja. Also being able to angle it downwards is useful on ledges.

Greninja has some of the worst OoS options in the game because half the cast can safe land autocanceling aerials on his shield and he has no response.

Oh how could I forget:
- Up B splatting ledges for no reason

 

[Neil.]

Correct his color palette on his GOD DAMN shiny alternate. That stomach should be black and his tongue should be solid Red like the pokemon games. Sakurai pls

 

[Jaguar360]

I like the Smash version better tbh, but it probably would make things better if they made it an exact replica of the shiny in the games.

 

[FullMoon]

The original shiny palette is way too dull in appearance. The Smash version has more color and black and yellow look great together.

Plus, in Pokémon the stars in Greninja's legs and the fin on the back of his head are still blue despite everything else being black and it just looks really jarring. The Smash made them all yellow and in general it looks a lot better.

 

[Onyxsbayne]

I'd like to see his Up Smash revived, no more bumping using his Up B, a faster Nair would be nice, a better down b, and maybe some stronger throws. Maybe I'm asking for too much, but that's what I'd like.

 

[MASTER719]

Less startup and lag on Shuriken, frame 3 grab, less lag on SS, fsmash knock back increase, Hydro Pump push back to original 3DS version.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Change Hydro Pump's official name to Aqua Jet.

I mean, c'mon. Its obviously Aqua Jet.

 

[mimgrim]

Change Hydro Pump's official name to Aqua Jet.

I mean, c'mon. Its obviously Aqua Jet.

Doesn't look like he is covering himself in water like Aqua Jet does. Instead looks like he is shooting out a pump or 2 of water out from his hands instead.

Hydro Pump fits better imo. Aqua Jet would mean to be covering himself in water and would have a physical hitbox around his body.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Well, yes, but it's not like the blast of water annihilates people like Hydro pump does in the original game though. Its a quick, weak movement technique that is often so fast the opponent cannot do much about it.

But I was just joking really, I didn't pick up Greninja till after the patch so I don't think there's really anything that needs to change lol. He's a solid, balanced, thoughtful character.

 

[Snackss]

I see even the best Greninja player fishing for forward air KO's. Feels like Greninja's KO options are very unreliable. Not much of a punish game since his up smash doesn't hit in front of him until the later frames and his dash attack has a very short range. Shadow Sneak is high risk. Down smash has very few active frames and a long startup. I have no idea what could be done to help though.

 

[HakuryuVision]

I understand they took out his techs (since they were considered bugs), but i want his original upsmash & watershurikens back, and a better counter/substitue.
All the other counters in the game are excellent, only Greninja's substitute comes out too slow and lasts for too short.
And even IF you manage to get the timing right, your opponent can just shield in most situations. : /

 

[MASTER719]

Jab1 locks

 

[Eji1700]

Substitute to not be completely awful.

More shield stun on fair

Slightly better shurikens.

Rather than forcing B to be his only approach tool, i'd rather see fair approaches be more viable if shielded. Nair can be the go to for standard pressure, with fair against block heavy opponents(should be safe on shield, especially given the startup, and lead to an advantage situation). Makes him less one dimensional.

reverting various nerfs would be nice, or at least finding a middle ground.

 

[Blade Knight]

Fix up tilt's hitbox to be accurate rather than not hitting quite where the tongue is. It hits closer to his body than the model would suggest.
Fix up air, since people often fall out before the last hit for no reason.
Fix standing and dashing grab hitbox so it accurately matches the visual effect.
Less laggy smashes.
Make substitute not punishable on hit.

Mostly just quality of life changes really. Re buffing his shurikens would be nice, but at least shifting shuriken is really good. Also, I would entirely remove shadow strike in favor of another custom variant, that move is utterly useless and if you ever accidentally hit it while off stage you're just dead. Unacceptable.

 

[Rokk Hero]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but I'd really like to be able to cancel the Shuriken charge and hold it... Like literally every other character that has a charging projectile. Being able to throw out a FWS whenever you want the same way Samus and Lucario throw out their Full Charge Shots / Aura Sphere would be awesome. Or even Shiek like and her full stack of needles.

For a speedy character, Greninja has ridiculously long startup on a majority of his moves. It's somewhat difficult to pull of SH Fairs because the blade takes so long to get out. And what's the deal with FSmash not hitting directly in front of him at all? I could understand if it was a weak sourspot but sometimes when a character like Mario is directly in front of you the blade goes right through him. That definitely needs to be fixed.

The Aerial Lag on his Nair is ridiculous. An offstage Nair near the ledge is Greninja donating a stock to his opponent. It's great that Nair autocancels on stage, but if I get grab released near the legde and accidentally whip out a Nair from mashing to get out, I should be able to recover.

I would be okay with either a faster standing grab OR an actual tether grab. At 14 frames Greninja's standing grab has similar laggy startups of tether grabs characters, but WITHOUT the benefit of the range associated with tether grabs justifying such high startup lag. Greninja's grab does have a bit more range than other grabs, but not 14 frames worth of range in my opinion. Trying a grab OoS is typically an extremely unsafe option against most characters.

More active frames for the counter, and make it come out faster. I understand that counters should be risky and definitely should be punishable on whiff. But compared to Little Mac's counter that seems like it lasts forever, and the counter attack is almost immediate, it seems kind of strange the way Greninja's was designed.

That's all for now I guess. I still love using Greninja even with all the nerfs. He's a lot of fun to play with and watch because of his unique style.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but I'd really like to be able to cancel the Shuriken charge and hold it... Like literally every other character that has a charging projectile.

Zelda and her Phantom say hi.

 

[Ludiloco]

It would be nice, but I think the ability to release it whenever you want by just releasing the button is more valuable than having it auto charge and having to tap the button again to release it. Makes it easier to mix up the timing of your release. Also, the little mini shurikens you get by just the tap of the button are way more valuable than Samus' small charge shots or WFT's small sun salutations. I wouldn't sacrifice those for anything not named shifting shuriken.

If I could change anything about Greninja I'd just want the lag off of shurikens honestly. I still feel like he's a great character and can be successful with the kit he has, but that would help immensely. Shadow sneak lag cancel was honestly pretty broken and I don't want it back

 

[Rokk Hero]

Zelda and her Phantom say hi.

Lol. I forgot about Diddy's peanut gun and the ZSS Stun gun too. Even then, at least Zelda can hold on to the full charge and release it at a more opportune time.

I'd also accept being able to hold out the Full Shuriken for better opportunities and being able to roll / shield cancel the charge, in order to preserve the one tap Shuriken @ Ludiloco mentioned. But personally I'd prefer if it worked more like Samus/Lucario/WFT.

 

[mimgrim]

Being able to store Shuriken would be OP on Greninja. There is a reason he isn't able to store them.

 

[Ludiloco]

I don't think it would be overpowered. I honestly prefer it the way it is now. Makes it easy to mix up the timing of your release.

 

[Onyxsbayne]

Maybe it's just me, but I want his Shifting Shuriken Custom changed. I'm not sure how other people use it, but I only use the full charge, the Shuriken that only goes a little in front of me seems kind of pointless, and is only there so the Shuriken has something bad to it. Maybe I'm wrong, and Greninja has some sweet combos with it, but I prefer the long range gravity effect of the full charge.

 

[Ludiloco]

No you're right, the fully charged one is way better and often combos into sweet spot up smash for easy kills. The uncharged covers almost no distance, is slow, and pops them straight up which isn't bad but isn't nearly as good.