When Ike fights with his Friends: 2 VS 2 Battles. Current Discussion - LUCARIO

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, I don't see anyone else jumping at the chance to do this, so it might as well be me. Credit to Kinzer for doing this for the Sonic boards, asking the Ike boards for input, which in an odd way got me to stop being lazy and actually type the stupid thing out. >_>

This topic is all about discussing a smaller, but still important part of the Smash Bros. series: the Team Battles. Where good characters can become not so good, and where bad characters can become forces to be reckoned with. Or, the good can just get better, and the bad just get worse. A key aspect of these Team Battles is how well two characters work together. If the two flow smoothly and easily support each other, the battle will be theirs. If the two are constantly getting into each other's way or disrupting each other's fighting patterns, they are toast. The goal here is to find out the best friends partners for Ike to fight with in these team battles, and how exactly the two would take on their opponents.

Just Remember, before you post in this topic, things can potentially get ugly. There is always that risk in match-up topics or ranking topics of any type. Don't start spazzing or having a hissy fit over something you don't like. Debate it, don't flame it. And make sure you
Prepare yourself!

credit to Keaton at Brawl Snapshots. Temp Pic until I can find a better one....

Ike's partners will be rated using these categories: (please keep the scores to the first decimal place)

General Co-operation: A basic generalization of how well they work with Ike. Do their playing styles help or hinder Ike? Out of 10 points. 10 being it was if they were meant to be together, 0 being they will be too busy at each other's throats to fight the other two. This should closely reflect the overall score, but not necessarily exactly like the overall score but just to 10 instead of 100

What they Bring: Do they cover Ike's weak points? Strength his strengths? Just generally support Ike in all methods? Out of 30 points. 30 being that they are a huge support Ike, 0 being they don't help Ike in any way, shape, or form.

What they Take: What will be the weak link of these two fighting together? Will Ike be too busy trying to keep his partner alive to be able to fight effectively? Will Ike basically be fighting a 1-on-2 battle? Out of 30 Points. 30 being that Ike's team mate needs no help at all from Ike, while a 0 means he's relying 110% on Ike to keep him or her alive.

Survivability: Do they have what it takes to survive well in a Team Battle? Weight and Recovery are the key things here. Out of 10 Points. 10 being they will out last Ike with ease, 7.5 being they will last about as long as Ike, and 0 being they will probably be out ASAP.

Worse Comes to Worse: A very general statement on how well they would do if Ike was knocked out, and the other two were still left. Assume last stock for all three of the remaining characters, and approaching KO level for all three. While not too much stock can be taken in this as there are too many variables, it can't hurt to have some idea of how they would do. Out of 10 Points. 10 means they can take the two on with no difficulties and win handily, 0 means that the partner jumps off the edge to save some time because they don't have a hope of winning.

Stage Selection: How many ideal stages do you have with this partner? Do they flourish on almost any stage, or do they only have 1 stage to work with in a team battle? Out of 10 Points. 10 means you can go to any stage with them and slice some heads off, 0 meaning you better play one one stage, and one stage only if you want a chance to win.


Too Long, Didn't Read/Quick Glance/Overall Score This is where I rap everything up in a quick summery. About to go to a tournament and suddenly your friend mentions he's going to use a different character? Check here for a quick review and the overall score out of 100, which will be in THIS COLOR.

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Ranking Chart

*no character discussion has been completed yet*

Discussion #1: Sonic

Credit to the Smash Dojo for Picture

Well, seeing as it was the Sonic version of this topic that got me to finally make this topic might as well start off with him. The fact we just finished discussing this on the Sonic boards doesn't hurt either. Sonic is a whirlwind of a character. Fastest ground movement speed not counting glitches, and is a blue blur of attacks. How well with he work with Ike's slower movement and attacks?

Discuss.

Write up will come up sometime Saturday Afternoon after SAT test, provided I'm not too fried from the 4 hour test to do so

Discussion #1: Lucario

I shouldn't have to explain this joke about what happens to Lucario's powerlevel when he has over 180% damage.
Credit to Calamitas at www.brawlsnapshots.com for pic

As requested by someone visa PM

Spoiler

inb4waveofpmrequests

, Mewtwo's "replacement", Lucario. Will the chaos of a 2 on 2 strengthen his aura to maximum power, or will it be too much to handle in the thick of battle?

Discuss.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, I mgiht as well be the one to tell you what Sonic can do before some random idiot from nowhere says "lulz Shawnik haz no priority or any strogn attacks! Tehy all spam spindash and i cant find teh difference!?"

I would have to say that Sonic is everything Ike isn't. He has a plethora of quick attacks (he is also fast in general...duh!), lots of multi-hit moves and some "combos", and a nice recovery. The only thing Sonic really lacks is K.O. moves. I would have to say 8/10 just because he does lack the K.O. moves

While Sonic cover for everything Ike is lacking in, he doesn't really boster his strength up at all. The both of them can synchronize their attacks and become one character though, so I would say 25/30.

Sonic is more than capable of handle himself on a lot of things, but it is always nice to have somebody there to cover for you. In Ike's case he won't have to worry about Sonic too much, just finish off his opponents while Sonic goes in and weakens the opponent. 28/30 for self-dependence.

I think what makes Sonic's recovery so amazing is the fact that for his average weight, he has a lot of ways to recovery, all of which can get a lot of distance. While they aren't MK or G&W safe, if Sonic isn't getting outright killed, he will be coming back 95% of the time. This is also nice since he can go offstage to save Ike and still have little trouble getting back up himself (Friendly fire on?). 9/10 for just because he can't reliably use some of the recovery methods sometimes (HA method) or that he isn't completely safe. He won't be killed too quickly though, as long as he isn't being ******** and running into your FSmash or something.

Sonic is a great character for one on ones, with a partner he's a little bit above okay, but if he is alone, it doesn't even matter, he is great at stalling the match, in which case it becomes a test of patience for his opponents. The hedgehog can safely attack both of his opponents, dodge and excape, and just play a hit and run style. Especially with friendly fire on, they have to be careful with throwing their attacks out and accidentally hitting their partner, but Sonic is safe knowing that he has no risk except getting himself hurt/killed, and can freely attack both his opponents without worry. It helps that he is annoying to get a perfect 10/10.

Go ahead and take Sonic anywhere, it is debatable that he has no bad stages, maybe Jungle Japes, but that's about it. While this is usually a matter of opinion, on-paper Sonic is flexible. 10/10

TL:DR?! Screw you pal, Sonic is a solid character, and with Ike by his side to cover his lack of "range" and K.O. power, this is one team to be reckoned with.


BTW I feel special knowing that I got you to start this!

 

[S8on95]

My favorite Ike team is with Pit (and this is whithout team attack). Pit angle ray Ike forward smash works every once in a while and is fun to see them go NNNNNNNUUUUUUUUU, I hate that move.

 

[•Col•]

My favorite Ike team is with Pit (and this is whithout team attack). Pit angle ray Ike forward smash works every once in a while and is fun to see them go NNNNNNNUUUUUUUUU, I hate that move.

Pretty much everyone here plays with Team attack on. So does every serious tournament. D:


Anyway, I don't have much experience with Sonic as a Team mate... I'm wondering how Ike does with Zelda/Sheik though, as I'm hosting a tournament in December, and my partner isn't sure what character he should use for teams. He mains Fox, but Zelda/Sheik are his secondaries, and I have a feeling that they'd do better... So yeah... It'd be cool if we could discuss soon.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I honestly doubt sonic is a 9.1 in a scale of 1 to 10 as a partner for Ike. That 28/30 for self dependence seems like its very very very wrong.

 

[Kinzer]

You want to provide some points to argue then Burrito?

I would like to think I know about my half main a little bit better than you, at least not without any proof seeing that you have any interest towards Sonic.

Also what is this?:

"My favorite Ike team is with Pit (and this is whithout team attack). Pit angle ray Ike forward smash works every once in a while and is fun to see them go NNNNNNNUUUUUUUUU, I hate that move."

And Colaya, you don't have to have experience with a team, just have some logic.

The reason why there's nothing like a 2vs2 tier list, is because it would be too complex to cover everything... which is why I have my guide back at the Sonic boards broken down to just how would this partner work with Sonic, like what can they provide for him... what do they have that hinders him... etc.

 

[•Col•]

And Colaya, you don't have to have experience with a team, just have some logic.

.... Wut? I don't know what you're saying.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

don't see why I need points behind this its common sense. Sonic isn't a great character He has loads of bad match ups and if the battle splits up into 2 1 vs 1s then then he won't be doing good.

Also from what I can remember sonic is played with a lot of hit and run involved like you said and using his specials to travel across the stage then combo people into juggling positions. With 2 extra people this doesn't seem like it will work as if he misses he is wide open for someone else to attack. There is also a very high chance of him getting hit by Ike's attacks.

His style of fighting also seems like he would leave Ike alone even if he can run over and help him he has to be careful not to run into all the chaos and just get Fsmashed by any of the 3 characters.


Seems to me like you over rated sonic and are just doing some wishful thinking. That 28/30 self dependence is way off.

 

[Kinzer]

Use common sense.

Brawl may defy some physics, but if you understand how some of the things work, you can apply that knowledge and put it into use in real battles.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

colya isn't really needed in this conversation no need to make him learning what common sense is XD.


Anyways I think I would give this team a 5.5/10

 

[Kinzer]

don't see why I need points behind this its common sense. Sonic isn't a great characterWTF?!He has loads of bad match ups Sonic is only bad on paper, he is better on the battlefield!! [and if the battle splits up into 2 1 vs 1s then then he won't be doing good. Are you insane? Sonic's "Hit-and-Run" playstyle only makes Sonic a nuisance to deal with, and if Ike is dead then he doesn't have to worry about anything but himself, while his opponents are struggling to hit something on the move and not hit their ally at the same time!

Also from what I can remember sonic is played with a lot of hit and run involved like you said I'm glad we agree. and using his specials to travel across the stage then combo people into juggling positions Only certain Sonic's use their spins to get around. I'm guilty of that most of the time, but there are other ways to move around... There is Spinshot, regular running, etc. As for juggles... eh well that's just a bonus, usually Sonic is about striking from all points, it doesn't matter what hits he lands, as long as he does.. With 2 extra people this doesn't seem like it will work as if he misses he is wide open for someone else to attack A good Sonic isn't going to use laggy attacks unless they are almost certain it will hit, only bad Sonics are going to do stupid s*** to get themselves hurt, especially when it comes down to him being double-teamed.. There is also a very high chance of him getting hit by Ike's attacks. Only if he is stupid enough to start spamming spins too much and roll right into Ike's attacks.

His style of fighting also seems like he would leave Ike alone even if he can run over and help him he has to be careful not to run into all the chaos and just get Fsmashed by any of the 3 characters. Sonic is a precision character, we can't afford to make miSteaks because we'll get easily punished for it. Besides that, he's fast enough to weave around... Ah Hell it his spins go right through people anyway, if he wants to miss Ike on his roll that's absolutely doable. Sonic doesn't run into chaos... HE MAKES IT!


Seems to me like you over rated sonic and are just doing some wishful thinking. That 28/30 self dependence is way off. Maybe I did overdo it, but say anything less than something like 20, and then you're just severly underestimating him

Responses in Deep Skyblue.

And now you're just throwing out a rating? Can't you at least provide some more points? You're being awfully vague.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm not reading that use a color that was just stupid...

edit: you even messed up on what ever you tried to do so I can't tell when my post ends or yours starts god this is awful you should have at least hit enter when your replying, do it after paragraphs to not after every sentence.

 

[•Col•]

Wtf? People insulting my intelligence or something?

Kinzer... I was curious as to which character would Ike be better teaming with, Zelda/Sheik or Fox, and then why which one is better. I never said I needed ". . .to have experience with a team".

I was wondering which team would most likely be better. I know how Fox and Zelda/Sheik works. I'll say it again, I just wanted to know which team would be better.

 

[Kinzer]

Ah the Hell with you, you're being absolutely terrible...

*edits*.

 

[•Col•]

@ Kinzer: What the hell!? What did I do now? -_-



Also, Arturito, how come you always take the "a" out of my name? o.O

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You aren't worthy of having your name spoken or spelled by me.

*shazam*

 

[Kinzer]

That was directed towards Burrito, it's not you Colaya. And I guess we had a little misunderstanding.

And there, I fixed it, and made it prettier, now there's no excuse for you to NOT read it!

 

[•Col•]

You aren't worthy of having your name spoken or spelled by me.

*shazam*

Oh yeah? Well at least my name is underlined with one entire color, while yours looks weird with that little blue underscore.

EDIT: And Kinzer, what misunderstanding?

 

[Kinzer]

I had mentioned about taking characters abilities and applying it into the heart of battle... and then... Burrito comes... that response to him being terrible was directed towards him... and now I'm here apologizing.

 

[•Col•]

Oh wait.... Do you want me to join the conversation about the Sonic/Ike team matchup? ._.

Is that what you were going on about before...?

 

[Kinzer]

Well... yes, exactly.

Just post your 2-cents on how you think Sonic would be a nice asset to Ike for 2vs2, or why you think Ike is better off with somebody else or something.

Like Burrito is saying how Sonic sucks, and I'm being the fanboy I am and I'm apparently having a flame war with him...

 

[•Col•]

Well... yes, exactly.

Just post your 2-cents on how you think Sonic would be a nice asset to Ike for 2vs2, or why you think Ike is better off with somebody else or something.

Like Burrito is saying how Sonic sucks, and I'm being the fanboy I am and I'm apparently having a flame war with him...

In that case, yeah, I'm with him on this one. xD You're giving him a bunch more credit than he probably deserves...

I think Sonic probably does worse in teams than he does in singles... <_<

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I can have the same color under my name if I want too if you wanted a blue underscore could you get it?

I don't see how a character can be bad on paper but good on the battle field. I could see it the other way around but not like that.

Hit and run doesn't actually work when there is no room to run in. With 2 characters one could easily get hit by Ike and then sonic is surrounded or hit Ike away and cut off his run path. Hit and run only works because people have to chase you which is not the case in doubles.

I doubt the spin shot is a good move for moving around and I'm pretty sure sonics consider there specials there long range moves. It doesn't matter if he only uses laggy attacks when they hit this is only safe when the person hit is the only one. If sonic is easily punished then it makes him a bad doubles player because suddenly he has to stick to his safe moves even if the hit is 100% guaranteed.

It's funny how you dismiss a lot of things as only if hes stupid though.

I'm pretty sure its under 20 and under 15 even. If the battle splits into a 1v1 thing then he is in trouble because there isn't room for him to do his hit and run thing once again. Also him stalling when he is alone is just stupid. I doubt sonic will win a match that comes down to a 2 vs 1 because he can be grabbed out of everything and no one has a reason to chase him because they have more stocks.

 

[Kinzer]

Nrrrrr... Sonic does fine, sure there are better characters to go with for singles/doubles, but he does not lack in either field, and he does not suck as a character...

And if I am giving him a lot of credit, you are more than welcome to state your opinions in Nidtendofreak's layout, that's what I did.

...God... d***it... Burrito... you must... challenge me... to some Lawl-Fi... and I'll give you... an idea of what Sonic...is capable of...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

This isn't the sonic boards stop posting so much.

edit:

General Co-operation: 6/10

What they Bring: 4/10

What they Take: From the sound of it its a 13/30

Survivability: I would actually say that Ike is more than a 7.5 on this lol. Anyways sonic is probably a 4/10, Gimp is not how you get kills in doubles its trough just flat out killing. Damage builds up fast and sonic is a light character he'll be dieing very soon.

Worse Comes to Worse: 1/10 I might even go 0 because of how this would turn out.

Stage Selection: 5/10 no bad stages but I don't think he has good ones either and if he does I doubt it will be the same as the ones Ike has.

edit2: no...

 

[Kinzer]

I have a reason to post this much, I'm trying to help Colaya know that his opinion is welcomed, and I'm trying to argue your points...

You can't run from Sonic, he's too fast. There is nowhere you can retreat to, especially knowing that Sonic can run Final Destination is 55 frames which is about a second. He will hunt you down whether you bring the fight to him or not.

And Spinshot gives Sonic the most aerial acceleration in the game for the duration of the technique. Also saying that his spins are his long-ranged moves is just ludicrous. It has a hitbox granted, but Sonic has nothing that is better than medium-long range in his arsenal other than his Spring which drops straight down... but that's going from the point. His rolls are nothing more than a means of getting around, they hit at melee range like it should.

*Ugh* D***it my head hurts...

Sonic does have safe moves... Uair can score easy Star K.O.s, Nair has minimal landing lag or none at all if done at the right height, Bair can be SHed and have no landing lag, and Forward Smash comes out fast and for as fast as it is has decent K.O. power. Those are examples, but still... I might have been emphasizing his lack of safe moves just a wee bit too much.

 

[•Col•]

Lol, I never said Sonic sucked as a character. I think he's really fun, and he's OK...

I think he's worse in teams because he's even more difficult to control then. It's going to be difficult for him to not attack Ike, and focus on the other team.

Sonic being fast/weak don't really balance out with Ike's strong/slow...

And arturo, I think it's funny how you attack everyone... xD

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Who the hell runs away from sonic? just wait there and own him.

Him moving fast doesn't matter in doubles there are hit boxes at every corner. All of his safe moves have crap range too so I doubt they are safe on shield.

The more I look at it the worse it seems. I think that 6/10 was to nice.

 

[Kinzer]

Argh, why should I even argue this, I am getting a headache out of nowhere, and this isn't helping.

Go ahead and look at Sonic as a bad character, I really couldn't care less anyway, so many people have the same mindset that it isn't worth it. I would know, having to deal with the SBR's "Sonic's dash attack doesn't pick up Diddy's Bananas" Bulls***.

Say whatever you want, all that I need to know is that while people look at Sonic as a terrible character, it only makes winning easier when they aren't expecting Sonic to come back and it only makes victory all the more satisfying.

I also noticed that since you have a friend-code, so if somebody challenges you, you have no excuse not to accept it other than "I am busy working on a guide" or something, and you have nothing to lose either because Wi-Fi is frowned upon. I'm not denying that it sucks, but if your opponents know not to take anything that comes out of it seriously, it's not like you're going to die if you lose a few Lag-Fi matches.

 

[YagamiLight]

Personally, I don't see what Sonic brings to Ike in doubles. Ike is amazingly good there, considering that most of his fears are lessened by the hectic nature of doubles and the fact that, as AB said, you need to be flat out killing in doubles, which Sonic doesn't seem capable of doing. I think in any doubles match, Sonic will be weighing down his teammate.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I suppose I have nothing to loose with wifi but it annoys me how things that are supposed to work don't. I could just say I don't like it why isn't that good enough of a reason.

I'll play you if you want now though.

 

[Kinzer]

*Hmph*

Then let it be known, that Sonic is a bad character on paper, that when played under the right conditions, can be annoying just as Sonic was built to be.

You may have the honors to make the room, and you can leave when you get tired.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

get on aim if you have your computer near you.

Also lol at the hypocrisy of you trying to show me what sonic can do yet saying no one takes wifi seriously.

 

[Blad01]

LOL. Arturito Sonic is better in teams than Ike. He has Hit&Run tactics, can't be gimped (which is common, well at least against good players. You are even sometimes edgeguarded by the two players), he can rack up damages pretty fast, help his teammate, gimp easily (good against space animals).

Ike has power/range and his job is mostly to kill his opponent. He's so easy to edgeguard in doubles ahah XP

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm not even going to answer that...

 

[•Col•]

I'm not even going to answer that...

I was going to, but then I really didn't know how to go about rebutting it. All I could think is "Wtf????"

 

[SaltyKracka]

LOL. Arturito Sonic is better in teams than Ike. He has Hit&Run tactics, can't be gimped (which is common, well at least against good players. You are even sometimes edgeguarded by the two players), he can rack up damages pretty fast, help his teammate, gimp easily (good against space animals).

Ike has power/range and his job is mostly to kill his opponent. He's so easy to edgeguard in doubles ahah XP

Sorry, Blad, but I'm going to have to contradict you here. The problem is that while Sonic can have good and bad characters to team up with, any team including Sonic is never going to be above mediocre. Sonic just gets in the way far too much.

 

[Kinzer]

Eh... that went off track, I wasn't s'pose to go Ike... but seeing as how you were using Snake and Mk, I guess we were just fooling around... and then we did some Ike dittos. XD

I proved nothing... but at least I'm in a better mood. Smash is a nice way to relive stress!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

well wheren't you supposed to show me what sonic was going to do? using snake and MK was part of that.

My views still stand as sonic being a horrible partner for ike.

 

[Kinzer]

That's okay, I feel good now, I have a new avatar, and I finally got to get a Wi-Fi match after weeks of being deprived.

Do whatever, I feel good again!