Why is Bowser so underrated?

[firedude953]

Seriously, why is Bowser so low on the tier list now? His position on the r/smashbros April tier list was okay, but now, on the r/smashbros June tier list, I feel he is placed way too low! Bowser is good because his speed is good for his weight, Bowser Bomb can break shields and can safely get Bowser to a ledge, some of Bowser's moves are quick for his weight, and he can punish well. May someone please explain why he is placed so low?

EDIT: Bowser can also punch through almost all [of] the projectiles.

 

[Zelder]

If I had to guess, Bowser isn't underrated that very much. He's low on the tier lists he's not very good.

He's better than he's ever been in any other Smash game, mind you. Also, I wouldn't pay too much attention to community voted tier lists.

 

[dyr]

Bowser has insane killpower and some fast moves, but he's ultimately too slow I think. His weight and size make it easy to combo him for a lot of characters. He's pretty good, and I would put him at like low B tier maximum but not any higher.

 

[Link24242]

One big problem is that Bowser doesn't have many (or maybe even any) good approach options. In a game that's as defensive as this one is, that holds him back a lot. There's quite a few characters that can zone him out all day without much effort.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

His landing lag is so bad that it feels like you are falling into a pool of tar every time you land with an aerial. Or heck, even his Up B.

Smash 4 Bowser is easily the best Bowser in the series, but this one huge flaw will continue to hold him back from being viable.

 

[Gibbs]

He placed low because he has losing match-ups against all of the high/top tiers. Bowser-Shiek, Bowser-Luigi, Bowser-Pika, Bowser-Ness, Bowser-Rosa/luma, Bowser-Sonic, Bowser-Mario, Bowser-ZSS, Bowser-Yoshi, Bowser-Villager. These match-ups are all 40:60 at best, with the majority probably being worse.

 

[Cassius.]

...Disregarding community voted lists (what are we in, the tenth month now?) here are a few reasons why his position is steadily declining. These are problems that he's had for years, now.

• His landing options are pretty bad. His air speed is meh. Makes it hard for him to escape ****.

• He has a blind spot below him (see first point). He has no low-risk options available to him to get down to the ground safely (air dodge, BBomb, DAir, NAir, ...any aerial. They all have some considerable lag to them) and some of the more gimmicky options don't even cover his bottom (Klaw, firebreath). To that end as well, he doesn't have any options to really get out of anything either aside from what the game has already given us, and UAir/FAir/NAir in degrees of usefulness for that.

• His MU spread against the top cast is mediocre, even with the rage mechanic and his survivability. It's not like...bottom 10 bad, but it's still not anything to write home about. It's like Brawl Bowser style where he had 40:60s across the board (on paper, but it's early meta so people are still bad and rage is fun to play with.)

• Frame data does matter. Even though he has seen improvements, the consensus amongst your average players is that he's slow, and they're partially correct. Partially. his fastest attack is six frames, and that's his OoS option. His jab is one frame slower (7), his pivot grab, despite how funny it is, is 11 frames, and all of his tilts are around 10. Compare that to other characters in the game.

• To add to that point, Whirling Fortress does have a reasonable risk to using it, and you can no longer retreat to the ledge if you happen to mess up. In a lot of MUs (hello, Mr. Green), this is a very big problem, because that's a stock. The best Bowser players, and players with brains have a great understanding of the risk-reward with this move, and situational awareness in general, but that point still stands.

• A lot of his attacks extend his hurtbox. Some of his aerials do have intangibility. Positioning and attack placement are important things that any Smash player has to be aware of, but consider this; if Bowser does happen to get in a situation where he's forced to trade, and he ends up airborne or loses stage control, what happens?

• Player representation also matters. If you're not on Twitch or YouTube, it is (unfortunately) pretty safe to say that you do not exist. There are a lot of Bowser players, surprisingly...or not, but a large bulk of these Bowser players are decent at best. At the mid and high level, a lot of Bowser tournament videos are of him losing. The Bowsers, myself included, don't make any noise at the high tournament level. There are a few good Bowser players I can list that do have good wins and do *reasonably* well, but the rate at which that does happen is not good enough for the stats to matter, and the wins can often be attributed to match up inexperience. We don't pull any weight. MD/VA seems to have the most Bowser players, but all of us that play him in tournament have to put in a lot more work and show up to more tournaments in general.

• He can lose to a lot of really odd stuff in this game. He does require a lot of work, and a VERY different kind of player to use him effectively. People don't want to work hard, and they really shouldn't have to, especially in this game. I wouldn't really suggest anyone to play Bowser (strictly talking tournament) unless they really want to lol

• This matters to way more players than it really should, but he doesn't have any throw combos or consistent throw setups.

• Because of the above, his neutral game is pretty plain. His ability to force situations just relies heavily on good stage positioning and really strong reads to close out stocks as early as possible. He has no business leaving the ground most of the time.

• This also matters to a lot more players than it really should, but he is vulnerable to more combos and prone to taking more damage from random things because of his size. This seriously only matters in MUs where Bowser's kind of on the clock with the damage he takes (kill throw setups, kill throws--so Luigi, Ness, etc.) In any other match up, the fact that he's easy to hit really doesn't matter. Trust me, we want you to hit us.

Those are just a few points. I could go on forever, because I've heard and read it all...for years and years. This is what happens when none of the problems your character has are fixed. I don't really sound like I believe it, but he is in the mid tier, for sure. He has pretty good tools, cool tech and great kill power. In a perfect world, he's anywhere between 25th-30th on a list.

As far as him being underrated (so I actually look like I'm answering your question), it's just that no one really plays him and is shaking up the scene with him. He has flaws that everyone is aware of at this point since its been like 14 years now LOL. I don't think he's underrated or overrated though. He's just...there.

 

[Zigsta]

He placed low because he has losing match-ups against all of the high/top tiers. Bowser-Shiek, Bowser-Luigi, Bowser-Pika, Bowser-Ness, Bowser-Rosa/luma, Bowser-Sonic, Bowser-Mario, Bowser-ZSS, Bowser-Yoshi, Bowser-Villager. These match-ups are all 40:60 at best, with the majority probably being worse.

The only ones that are really bad are Yoshi and Sheik. The rest are all varying degrees of manageable.

 

[firedude953]

One big problem is that Bowser doesn't have many (or maybe even any) good approach options. In a game that's as defensive as this one is, that holds him back a lot. There's quite a few characters that can zone him out all day without much effort.

His approach option is that he can punch through almost all [of] the projectiles. Bowser is usually played defensively by waiting for your opponent to attack, then punishing.

His landing lag is so bad that it feels like you are falling into a pool of tar every time you land with an aerial. Or heck, even his Up B.

Smash 4 Bowser is easily the best Bowser in the series, but this one huge flaw will continue to hold him back from being viable.

You can aerial to a ledge, making you grab it, thus removing the lag.

 

[Dark Phazon]

If I had to guess, Bowser isn't underrated that very much. He's low on the tier lists he's not very good.

He's better than he's ever been in any other Smash game, mind you. Also, I wouldn't pay too much attention to community voted tier lists.

Hes the best heavyweight...if you can get really good with bowser you can beat almost anyone.
Bowser is top 15 imo.
He is really good. WtF...

 

[firedude953]

...Disregarding community voted lists (what are we in, the tenth month now?) here are a few reasons why his position is steadily declining. These are problems that he's had for years, now.

Those are just a few points. I could go on forever, because I've heard and read it all...for years and years. This is what happens when none of the problems your character has are fixed. I don't really sound like I believe it, but he is in the mid tier, for sure. He has pretty good tools, cool tech and great kill power. In a perfect world, he's anywhere between 25th-30th on a list.
[Insert points here]
As far as him being underrated (so I actually look like I'm answering your question), it's just that no one really plays him and is shaking up the scene with him. He has flaws that everyone is aware of at this point since its been like 14 years now LOL. I don't think he's underrated or overrated though. He's just...there.

Here are your points and my responses to them:

• His landing options are pretty bad. His air speed is meh. Makes it hard for him to escape ****. This is true, though ledge cancelling partially fixes this.

• He has a blind spot below him (see first point). He has no low-risk options available to him to get down to the ground safely (air dodge, BBomb, DAir, NAir, ...any aerial. They all have some considerable lag to them) and some of the more gimmicky options don't even cover his bottom (Klaw, firebreath). To that end as well, he doesn't have any options to really get out of anything either aside from what the game has already given us, and UAir/FAir/NAir in degrees of usefulness for that. It is true that he has no low-risk options, but once you practice BBomb ledge cancelling, it becomes easy to do. One more abstract way to get to the ground is to get below the ledge, then use the aerial to grab on to it.

• His MU spread against the top cast is mediocre, even with the rage mechanic and his survivability. It's not like...bottom 10 bad, but it's still not anything to write home about. It's like Brawl Bowser style where he had 40:60s across the board (on paper, but it's early meta so people are still bad and rage is fun to play with.) While this is true, Bowser has some equal matchps and a good amount of advantageous matchups. Since the game is fairly new and it is getting updates, the meta is unstable and that could change, for better or worse.

• Frame data does matter. Even though he has seen improvements, the consensus amongst your average players is that he's slow, and they're partially correct. Partially. his fastest attack is six frames, and that's his OoS option. His jab is one frame slower (7), his pivot grab, despite how funny it is, is 11 frames, and all of his tilts are around 10. Compare that to other characters in the game. While this is important, Bowser is usually played defensively, so you wait for your opponent to attack, then punish.

• To add to that point, Whirling Fortress does have a reasonable risk to using it, and you can no longer retreat to the ledge if you happen to mess up. In a lot of MUs (hello, Mr. Green), this is a very big problem, because that's a stock. The best Bowser players, and players with brains have a great understanding of the risk-reward with this move, and situational awareness in general, but that point still stands. This is true.

• A lot of his attacks extend his hurtbox. Some of his aerials do have intangibility. Positioning and attack placement are important things that any Smash player has to be aware of, but consider this; if Bowser does happen to get in a situation where he's forced to trade, and he ends up airborne or loses stage control, what happens? What happens is that Bowser grabs onto a ledge using either Bowser Bomb, or going below it then using Whirling Fortress. Bowser then pushes the opponent away with either the ledge attack, side-tilt, or firebreath.

• Player representation also matters. If you're not on Twitch or YouTube, it is (unfortunately) pretty safe to say that you do not exist. There are a lot of Bowser players, surprisingly...or not, but a large bulk of these Bowser players are decent at best. At the mid and high level, a lot of Bowser tournament videos are of him losing. The Bowsers, myself included, don't make any noise at the high tournament level. There are a few good Bowser players I can list that do have good wins and do *reasonably* well, but the rate at which that does happen is not good enough for the stats to matter, and the wins can often be attributed to match up inexperience. We don't pull any weight. MD/VA seems to have the most Bowser players, but all of us that play him in tournament have to put in a lot more work and show up to more tournaments in general. This is true, though Bowser's position on the tier list contributes to this.

• He can lose to a lot of really odd stuff in this game. He does require a lot of work, and a VERY different kind of player to use him effectively. People don't want to work hard, and they really shouldn't have to, especially in this game. I wouldn't really suggest anyone to play Bowser (strictly talking tournament) unless they really want to lol [no comment]

• This matters to way more players than it really should, but he doesn't have any throw combos or consistent throw setups. Since he is heavy, combos don't really matter too much.

• Because of the above, his neutral game is pretty plain. His ability to force situations just relies heavily on good stage positioning and really strong reads to close out stocks as early as possible. He has no business leaving the ground most of the time. While it is true that Bowser doesn't go off the ground a lot, Bowser can go off the ground to Up-Air or Neutral-Air. He also can KO by using his Back-Air, especially when the opponent is trying to recover.

• This also matters to a lot more players than it really should, but he is vulnerable to more combos and prone to taking more damage from random things because of his size. This seriously only matters in MUs where Bowser's kind of on the clock with the damage he takes (kill throw setups, kill throws--so Luigi, Ness, etc.) In any other match up, the fact that he's easy to hit really doesn't matter. Trust me, we want you to hit us. Agreed.

 

[Gibbs]

Hes the best heavyweight...if you can get really good with bowser you can beat almost anyone.
Bowser is top 15 imo.
He is really good. WtF...

If you go down the list of top tier characters, take Zero's for the sake of argument, and compare Bowser character by character against the rest of the cast, I can't imagine him placing in the top 15. For sake of argument we ask; Is Bowser better than:

Shiek: needs no explanation
Rosa/Luma: same as above
Luigi: same as above
Pikachu: same as above
Diddy: same as above and still has impressive tournament placings in spite of numerous nerfs
Ness: All his aerials are godlike, have great frame data, and kill crazy early or combo hard. Backthrow is stupid, throw combos are easy. PK Thunder 2 also stupid.
Mii Brawler: Kill confirm out of downthrow, great speed, ok projectile
Sonic: Has close to even matchups with the rest of top tier, great defensive play, insane mobility/groundspeed
Villager: Amazing stage control and zoning game, customs or not. Good match-ups against top tiers
Fox: Larry Lurr combo videos
ZSS: Zoning, mobility, recovery, kill set ups, she has it all (shame her grab is ass)
Mario: great combos, kill moves, frame data, good projectile, great matchups in against high tiers.
Olimar: Dabuz' and Myran and Rich Brown's results, I know the character is good but I don't understand him yet. Still better than Bowser
Falcon: Combos into knee, great mobility, kills early, great combo game
Yoshi: Way cuter than Bowser, overall great moveset, kills early and lives long with super armor DJ and his weight class.
PIt/Dark Pit: Decent disjoints, good projectile, decent ground speed and combo game, great edgegaurd tools
Wario: Good frame data, set ups into waft, great recovery with bike, good combo game. Abadango's tournament results
R.O.B.: Amazing zoning game, kill throw and a throw kill set up (beep boop), great recovery

And Here at spot 18 we have reached the point where I think it's first plausible to place Bowser. All the characters above this point hands down smoke Bowser in the neutral, have better frame data and mobility, have much better recovery, and most importantly have high placing tournament representation. Even below 18th I have a hard time placing Bowser over Megaman, DHD, Kirby, Meta Knight. Not to mention he's definitely worse than Roy and Lucas. Newly buffed Ike and Link also probably outplace him now. I'd put Bowser at around 35th on the tier list.

 

[Dark Phazon]

If you go down the list of top tier characters, take Zero's for the sake of argument, and compare Bowser character by character against the rest of the cast, I can't imagine him placing in the top 15. For sake of argument we ask; Is Bowser better than:

Shiek: needs no explanation
Rosa/Luma: same as above
Luigi: same as above
Pikachu: same as above
Diddy: same as above and still has impressive tournament placings in spite of numerous nerfs
Ness: All his aerials are godlike, have great frame data, and kill crazy early or combo hard. Backthrow is stupid, throw combos are easy. PK Thunder 2 also stupid.
Mii Brawler: Kill confirm out of downthrow, great speed, ok projectile
Sonic: Has close to even matchups with the rest of top tier, great defensive play, insane mobility/groundspeed
Villager: Amazing stage control and zoning game, customs or not. Good match-ups against top tiers
Fox: Larry Lurr combo videos
ZSS: Zoning, mobility, recovery, kill set ups, she has it all (shame her grab is ***)
Mario: great combos, kill moves, frame data, good projectile, great matchups in against high tiers.
Olimar: Dabuz' and Myran and Rich Brown's results, I know the character is good but I don't understand him yet. Still better than Bowser
Falcon: Combos into knee, great mobility, kills early, great combo game
Yoshi: Way cuter than Bowser, overall great moveset, kills early and lives long with super armor DJ and his weight class.
PIt/Dark Pit: Decent disjoints, good projectile, decent ground speed and combo game, great edgegaurd tools
Wario: Good frame data, set ups into waft, great recovery with bike, good combo game. Abadango's tournament results
R.O.B.: Amazing zoning game, kill throw and a throw kill set up (beep boop), great recovery

And Here at spot 18 we have reached the point where I think it's first plausible to place Bowser. All the characters above this point hands down smoke Bowser in the neutral, have better frame data and mobility, have much better recovery, and most importantly have high placing tournament representation. Even below 18th I have a hard time placing Bowser over Megaman, DHD, Kirby, Meta Knight. Not to mention he's definitely worse than Roy and Lucas. Newly buffed Ike and Link also probably outplace him now. I'd put Bowser at around 35th on the tier list.

I hate that tiers are based on how good a characters does against the top 5 or so...although it does make sense...because in tourney thats who every1 is gonna play as...i hate more so that smash is revolved around speed chars...the fastest chars are always the best...
I dont play much over fighting games but is it like that for all fighting games? Or just more so for smash....

I think that yoshi should be abit light...i think its complete Bull* at how strong Ness is...
He shouldnt be that strong...

So many kill options...
B_Throw
FSmash
Both super strong.

Back Air very strong.

UpAir and NAir also kill at decent percents...

PK thunder into himself is crazy also its bull how you cant go off stage and stop him..because if you hit the lightning ball it just goes through himself into him then him into you and you are dead...

WtF..
Also..how is Villager a top character?
Are we talking customs?
Is there something i dont know about him?

 

[Gibbs]

Villager, Rosalina and Luma, Olimar, R.O.B. , and Duck Hunt Dog can all be played well competitively and they're not slow. Tiers are only useful when talking about competitive viability, or to show where the current meta is. A Bowser main doesn't have to be dejected about his mid placing, he can use the tier list to direct his match up study. I think there's a Ganon main at the top of some midwest states PR. So at a regional level you can be a low tier hero and succeed, but if you're looking to win Apex, CEO, or EVO then Bowser isn't your best bet.

Tiers can't tell you how to have fun with the game, if the competitive meta grind isn't fun for you than you don't have to play. Everyone I've met at tournament would be more than happy to play against bowser mains in friendlies or bracket. Look at all the love aMSa and Green Ranger get over on r/smashbros. The community loves an underdog.

 

[Cassius.]

@ Gibbs I'm not going to ask about how you go from placing 18th to 35th on a tier list and only list 8 characters in between lol. Like I said before, he's anywhere between 25th and 30th. If we were to list all of those characters you had up there, that's like...26 or something. That's still in between the perfect ballpark. 27th is fine. 28th is perfect. 30th is amazing. It's not a problem. He's still in the range. Bowser is nowhere near top 15, anyone who thinks that is insane LOL. Everyone in the top 15 (you can argue for 20 and I wouldn't fight back) has proven their worth and all have great tools that shows they deserve those spots. Bowser is a different case.

For @ firedude953 , thank you for your responses. I feel as though you're looking at all of those situations and points I listed at a basic level, though. The tidbits about Bowser leaving the ground to do an attack...of course he can do that! Any character can do that in the game. You're not telling me anything I don't already know. My point for those posts is that when you're stripping Bowser's neutral down to a fundamental level, he is able to play at his best when he is grounded. You're obviously going to leave the ground for some situations to capitalize on whatever advantages you may have; truth be told, Bowser often has more advantage by remaining on the ground in a lot of those same situations where you believe it would be okay to leave the ground for a NAir or an UAir. Situational awareness is really important in determining whether going for a UAir is fine, or whether waiting and punishing something that will come afterward would be more useful.

I know Bowser is meant to be played defensively (if we really want to get technical, he can be used in any fashion to a reasonable degree). You have to wait for your opponent to attack, and then you punish them. But it's not that simple, and I seriously hope you, anyone reading this thread, or anyone playing this game doesn't think that's the case either. Players don't seem to understand yet that no one really has to approach anyone once they've put some damage on the board. I think of it as a luxury that players are still dumb enough to approach when they have a life lead. It makes our job a lot easier. But I can guarantee you that if you play against someone who knows when they're in an advantageous position, it makes that simple "bait and punish" phrase a lot more difficult to use. It's still possible, of course, but you have to be aware that it's a lot easier said than done.

The statement that Bowser is "meant" to be played defensively has nothing to do with the fact that his frame data is pretty average. In fact, I would argue that because his frame data is like that, it makes our role of "playing defensively" more difficult than it needs to be when you're playing against high level players or the top cast. What can Bowser do against a 2-frame jab? Someone mashing their superior buttons in your face? WHERE YOU CAN'T UP-B OOS (you reallyreallyreallyreally shouldn't be doing that, but I just wanted to throw that out there in case someone still figured Bowser could just Up-B everything), and doing that will actually cause you to lose momentum? Where you can't quite get a shieldgrab punish? You would obviously want to reset the situation, and try again, right? That's the easy answer. But what happens if that situation repeats itself again, and again? These are real things that have happened to Bowser players. I have seen it in person, in videos, on streams, and I've had it happen to me as well. You can chalk it up to a number of Bowser's faults, but if it's not his size, or the size of his shield, or a player mistake, what else could it be? His pretty-good-but-still-kinda-lame frame data. What happens if someone is spacing BAir perfectly on your shield so that you can't punish them at all, and you throwing out a button, attempting to punish actually ends up with you getting hit, and being put at an even greater disadvantage? You can try to walk your opponent to the corner, and then force a situation from there so that you can get damage. But, sometimes, it's not that easy. Some players will become aware that they are losing ground in those situations and mix it up, and try to push you back so they can get their stage back. Can you count on yourself to be aware in those situations so that you can actively punish or prevent those options?

And for the biggest question of all--What happens when your opponent has the life lead? You're suddenly forced to approach to even out the playing field. But that's not really playing defensive anymore. You have to hit something, or force a situation. What happens a few months down the line when players aren't scared of Bowser anymore? When the level of tournament play (I sincerely hope) begins to elevate, and your run-of-the-mill tournament player is a lot smarter and harder to beat than before?

Yes, Bowser can use Bowser Bomb to go to the ledge safely. But...is that it? Is the situation is all clear after that? You have to look deeper. It's a good tactic, but all it's doing is putting you on the ledge, where another battle begins. I'm assuming you play Bowser, so you know that's not the end of the story. You have to get back on stage properly, then fight for stage control again to be in a comfortable position to bait and punish. There are characters that can keep Bowser trapped at the ledge or at the corner of the stage for minutes, and stocks, even.

If you're trying to get back onstage from the ledge, Ledge attacks and firebreath especially don't do anything to get someone out of Bowser's face if he's at a disadvantage. Forward Tilt is just about the same.

After re-reading this about three times, it does make Bowser seem like he's a terrible character. He's not, by any means, but I just want to be realistic. These situations really do happen, and it's primarily because everything I'm listing is the exact same **** that has been happening for years in previous Smash games. Next to none of his flaws have been completely removed, or fixed. Player error is still a big factor in Smash 4 since it's a new game, so Bowser is definitely going to prosper. He feeds off of mistakes. He baits. He punishes. Everyone knows that. But you can't really force a mistake out of someone who is never put in the position to make one. If the player doesn't feel threatened (do we have amazing buttons? a 2 frame jab? 5 frame aerials? Our greatest tools lie elsewhere, but can we count on the player to really fear and respect us in neutral?) there's not much we can count on.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

Damn I know you pointed out he's not a terrible character, but that post sure does make it seem like it xD.

 

[Cassius.]

Damn I know you pointed out he's not a terrible character, but that post sure does make it seem like it xD.

Yeah, I noted that towards the end also. That's just how I happen to post haha

The thing about Bowser is that he relies on punishes and baits to do good damage. He is also considered a grappler apparently because his pivot grab range is obnoxiously large and his command grab is...not as good as it used to be, but still great for what it's worth. But the concept behind baiting and punishing requires an action to be baited, and an action to be punished, yeah? That requires your opponent to make a mistake, or you forcing them into a situation where they make the wrong move. Player error is, in my opinion, more important to Bowser than a lot of other characters in the game. It's harder for him to force situations, if you compare him to characters in the top 5, then 10, then 15.

This seems to be true when I look at it that way because Bowser has no combos, no consistent throw setups, nothing really abusable on paper. Jab is frame 7 in a game where any jab below 5 frames is normal, pivot grab comes out on frame 11, klaw's range is horrible if you consider what it used to be, but we all know that Bowsers get more mileage out of those moves than they would suggest. In fact, those three moves are really at the core of Bowser's neutral, with a few other moves that depend on the style of Bowser.

He relies on mistakes. Bowser has to stay a character length or half a character length from all characters so he can be in a position to actively punish something, or move back if he needs to reset neutral. He has one of the best skid animations in the game, to the point where it's non-existent. That is for the purpose I just listed--that approximate zone.

The thing that saves him is that his moves actually aren't bad at all. They're just not really good. So, by process of elimination, they're okay. And in this game, "okay" moves are actually pretty great. His damage output is ridiculous. Everything he has does over 10%, and on average, characters are looking to die at 90-120, and that's not counting Smash attacks, or Bowser Bomb, even. Or, the rogue BAirs that we get occasionally to kill characters at 70 off of ledge trumps or air-to-air confirms. That means that as Bowser, I only need to grab someone a few times, hit someone somewhere between 5-7 times, and they're already worried about dying. His punish game, if he is allowed to punish things, is absurd because of this as well.

Bowser relies on the opponent doing the wrong thing. All we have to do is force people into situations where they will likely end up doing the wrong thing. But of course, it's never that easy lol. You have to get into your opponent's head. You have to be able to recognize situations, and understand what your opponent needs to do, and what your opponent wants to do (these are two VERY different things.) Bowser also relies on closing out stocks as early as possible, so it's absolutely imperative that all Bowser players optimize their punish game (i.e., if you can BBomb something, do it.) There will be MUs in the future where characters will literally have no business being near Bowser once a life-lead is established, so Bowser has to get the most mileage out of all of his punishes. You will never know when you'll be able to hit a character like Sheik again.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Cerealisyummy5 Don't be fooled. Cassius' point is that if you don't play sloppy with Bowser, he's truly a mid tier character. That's the reason why he's addressing options that players typically don't consider. He's the best guy to listen to if you aren't religiously following some other top tier player for advice.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

No worries, I understand. I'm a top tier player myself from another world (happen to be the best in the entire world while we're at it) if you look up my name : P. Thank you for the well worded explanation. I'll try my best to make some sort of progress with Bowser at Smash Attack.

 

[firedude953]

@ Gibbs I'm not going to ask about how you go from placing 18th to 35th on a tier list and only list 8 characters in between lol. Like I said before, he's anywhere between 25th and 30th. If we were to list all of those characters you had up there, that's like...26 or something. That's still in between the perfect ballpark. 27th is fine. 28th is perfect. 30th is amazing. It's not a problem. He's still in the range. Bowser is nowhere near top 15, anyone who thinks that is insane LOL. Everyone in the top 15 (you can argue for 20 and I wouldn't fight back) has proven their worth and all have great tools that shows they deserve those spots. Bowser is a different case.

For @ firedude953 , thank you for your responses. I feel as though you're looking at all of those situations and points I listed at a basic level, though. The tidbits about Bowser leaving the ground to do an attack...of course he can do that! Any character can do that in the game. You're not telling me anything I don't already know. My point for those posts is that when you're stripping Bowser's neutral down to a fundamental level, he is able to play at his best when he is grounded. You're obviously going to leave the ground for some situations to capitalize on whatever advantages you may have; truth be told, Bowser often has more advantage by remaining on the ground in a lot of those same situations where you believe it would be okay to leave the ground for a NAir or an UAir. Situational awareness is really important in determining whether going for a UAir is fine, or whether waiting and punishing something that will come afterward would be more useful.

I know Bowser is meant to be played defensively (if we really want to get technical, he can be used in any fashion to a reasonable degree). You have to wait for your opponent to attack, and then you punish them. But it's not that simple, and I seriously hope you, anyone reading this thread, or anyone playing this game doesn't think that's the case either. Players don't seem to understand yet that no one really has to approach anyone once they've put some damage on the board. I think of it as a luxury that players are still dumb enough to approach when they have a life lead. It makes our job a lot easier. But I can guarantee you that if you play against someone who knows when they're in an advantageous position, it makes that simple "bait and punish" phrase a lot more difficult to use. It's still possible, of course, but you have to be aware that it's a lot easier said than done.

The statement that Bowser is "meant" to be played defensively has nothing to do with the fact that his frame data is pretty average. In fact, I would argue that because his frame data is like that, it makes our role of "playing defensively" more difficult than it needs to be when you're playing against high level players or the top cast. What can Bowser do against a 2-frame jab? Someone mashing their superior buttons in your face? WHERE YOU CAN'T UP-B OOS (you reallyreallyreallyreally shouldn't be doing that, but I just wanted to throw that out there in case someone still figured Bowser could just Up-B everything), and doing that will actually cause you to lose momentum? Where you can't quite get a shieldgrab punish? You would obviously want to reset the situation, and try again, right? That's the easy answer. But what happens if that situation repeats itself again, and again? These are real things that have happened to Bowser players. I have seen it in person, in videos, on streams, and I've had it happen to me as well. You can chalk it up to a number of Bowser's faults, but if it's not his size, or the size of his shield, or a player mistake, what else could it be? His pretty-good-but-still-kinda-lame frame data. What happens if someone is spacing BAir perfectly on your shield so that you can't punish them at all, and you throwing out a button, attempting to punish actually ends up with you getting hit, and being put at an even greater disadvantage? You can try to walk your opponent to the corner, and then force a situation from there so that you can get damage. But, sometimes, it's not that easy. Some players will become aware that they are losing ground in those situations and mix it up, and try to push you back so they can get their stage back. Can you count on yourself to be aware in those situations so that you can actively punish or prevent those options?

And for the biggest question of all--What happens when your opponent has the life lead? You're suddenly forced to approach to even out the playing field. But that's not really playing defensive anymore. You have to hit something, or force a situation. What happens a few months down the line when players aren't scared of Bowser anymore? When the level of tournament play (I sincerely hope) begins to elevate, and your run-of-the-mill tournament player is a lot smarter and harder to beat than before?

Yes, Bowser can use Bowser Bomb to go to the ledge safely. But...is that it? Is the situation is all clear after that? You have to look deeper. It's a good tactic, but all it's doing is putting you on the ledge, where another battle begins. I'm assuming you play Bowser, so you know that's not the end of the story. You have to get back on stage properly, then fight for stage control again to be in a comfortable position to bait and punish. There are characters that can keep Bowser trapped at the ledge or at the corner of the stage for minutes, and stocks, even.

If you're trying to get back onstage from the ledge, Ledge attacks and firebreath especially don't do anything to get someone out of Bowser's face if he's at a disadvantage. Forward Tilt is just about the same.

After re-reading this about three times, it does make Bowser seem like he's a terrible character. He's not, by any means, but I just want to be realistic. These situations really do happen, and it's primarily because everything I'm listing is the exact same **** that has been happening for years in previous Smash games. Next to none of his flaws have been completely removed, or fixed. Player error is still a big factor in Smash 4 since it's a new game, so Bowser is definitely going to prosper. He feeds off of mistakes. He baits. He punishes. Everyone knows that. But you can't really force a mistake out of someone who is never put in the position to make one. If the player doesn't feel threatened (do we have amazing buttons? a 2 frame jab? 5 frame aerials? Our greatest tools lie elsewhere, but can we count on the player to really fear and respect us in neutral?) there's not much we can count on.

I agree with you that Bowser is best grounded.

While it is true that it is more complicated than "bait and punish", shield + UpB (on the ground) or shield + grab works with punishing most basic straightforward attacks. Projectile attacks can be rolled away from (towards the player if the attack has enough lag and you're close enough). It is definitely true that it depends on the situation.

I agree about the frame data, though if a patch comes out that improves Bowser's frame data, he will improve a lot.

It is true that Bowser needs to regain control of the battle after he grabs onto the ledge. A good way for Bowser to do that is for him to roll off the ledge, then maybe roll again, depending on the situation. If the opponent tries to get you, you can shield/roll until the attack is over, then punish with UpB or a grab. If the opponent fire projectiles, you can shield for the first one, then punch through the rest of them.

Since firebreath stuns the opponent while they are in the fire, you can use that to your advantage. Side-tilt pushes the opponent back a bit, slightly evening the playing field. I do agree they are not the best spacing options though.

I do agree with you on the fact that Bowser has some disadvantages. The things I said above in the post were options to overcome those problems in battle, and not full solutions. I think that "niche use" is a bit too overboard though, because I can see Bowser being played at tournaments (depending on the meta, he may be played with secondaries). I think that Bowser should be B+ / 19th - 21st.

EDIT/UPDATE: I did a bit more testing with Bowser, and I found out that Bowser does have more issues with regaining control of the battle then I thought. Doing the method I said in the above post works sometimes. Sometimes it fails to work and Bowser gets hit again.

 

[Glory Blaze]

I agree with you that Bowser is best grounded.

While it is true that it is more complicated than "bait and punish", shield + UpB (on the ground) or shield + grab works with punishing most basic straightforward attacks. Projectile attacks can be rolled away from (towards the player if the attack has enough lag and you're close enough). It is definitely true that it depends on the situation.

I agree about the frame data, though if a patch comes out that improves Bowser's frame data, he will improve a lot.

It is true that Bowser needs to regain control of the battle after he grabs onto the ledge. A good way for Bowser to do that is for him to roll off the ledge, then maybe roll again, depending on the situation. If the opponent tries to get you, you can shield/roll until the attack is over, then punish with UpB or a grab. If the opponent fire projectiles, you can shield for the first one, then punch through the rest of them.

Since firebreath stuns the opponent while they are in the fire, you can use that to your advantage. Side-tilt pushes the opponent back a bit, slightly evening the playing field. I do agree they are not the best spacing options though.

I do agree with you on the fact that Bowser has some disadvantages. The things I said above in the post were options to overcome those problems in battle, and not full solutions. I think that "niche use" is a bit too overboard though, because I can see Bowser being played at tournaments (depending on the meta, he may be played with secondaries). I think that Bowser should be B+ / 19th - 21st.

You really ought to not roll with Bowser. It's slow and punishable, and it's not uncommon for a Bowser to go for an entire match without roling even once, especially since UpB is essentially the same as a roll when it comes to mobility (obviously it's an attack and not a dodge, but you get the point). The method you suggests involves rolling to the ledge (aka FG 101 and then 'rolling until the attack is over', but in a realistic tournament setting if you roll more than once at any given time you will eat a hard punish right in your turtle-y mouth.

Sorry if any of this sounded mean, I'm just worried that you might be trivializing some of our problems a little (although i did notice and appreciate your second post, it does still seem a little pro-roll). Bowsers biggest problem, IMO, is coming out of disadvantage and back into the neutral. In the air, he's super susceptible to juggles - he can't descend with DAir or Bomb unless he wants to eat a grab or even a smash attack, Fire Breath is too laggy and it only covers one side of us anyways, our airspeed is nothing special so double jump fakeouts aren't effective landing strats, and without customs we don't even have Dash (Slash/Slam) to escape pressure or open up air to ground 'combos' (more like strings but w/e). Our only real options are autocancel fair or sideb cancel into option select, and those are hardly one size fits all. They're not even one size fits most.


(On another note, hello Bowser boards! I'm a new tournament player, I repped Bowser and a little bit of Robin at FC Return on the 4th of July, where I drowned in pools. I look forward to improving with both characters!)

 

[Cassius.]

I appreciate the posts, and welcome to the Bowser Boards @ Glory Blaze ! If you need any help with Bowser tech or have any questions at all, don't hesitate to ask us. We usually try to answer to the best of our ability.

You are absolutely correct. One of Bowser's largest problems is actually regaining control of a match once stage control and momentum have been lost. In Brawl, Bowser had a rough time getting out of the corners/edges of stages once he got past 100% (the animations below and above 100% differed in previous games). Against characters like Marth, Bowser was cake food once he was pushed into the corner, but the MU itself was otherwise fine.

That problem of regaining control is still present, and although we have tools to get a quick surprise in (dash in up-b as a pretty interesting anti-air, instant dash attack (tap joystick + c stick down), etc.), Bowser has to play very cautiously, and it's not as easy as a forum post would make it seem lol.

There are a few gimmicks that Bowser has that allow him to take advantage of options that would otherwise seem stupid to use. You can't completely rule out Down-B and DAir as landing options, but you have to pay attention to how your opponent is planning on/is actively punishing your options. It's sometimes easier to play when you're stopping someone from doing something, as opposed to focusing on yourself and gathering your own ground. (general example: "what things do i need to do in/on ____" vs. "how can i stop my opponent from doing things in/on _____")

 

[Ol' King Dedede]

Because people like me, samus, diddy, Yoshi and ness are more played than Bowsie