Why is there not a match-up discussion?

[*P*L*U*R*]

Seriously, guys. Let's make one.

I dunno much about match-ups but we can have people that ARE knowledgable talk about them.

Yesterday I hosted a tourney at my house and I was playing against this one guy. I 4-stocked his CF, 2-stocked his marth but when he rolled Fox, I got *****.

Arg! that matchup is so dumb.

 

[The Phenom]

Yeah, it would be nice to have one. I know it will definitely help me out in my match ups; to bad other legit G&Ws' only come here like 2 times in a year. Well let's get started then.

Who should we discuss first???
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CLASS OF 2009!!!

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Who should we discuss first???

Marth or sheik, they seem the hardest for gnw imo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lasers, U-smash, and U-throw combos all are very effective against Game & Watch. His terrible tech roll additionally makes drillshine very good, because you don't need to work hard to follow him after it.

Sheik is additionally horrible ****. Chain grab, automatic combos, her Fair's trajectory is terrible for Game & Watch's mostly vertical recovery, and her needles / D-smash automatically defeat his shield.

 

[The Phenom]

I can deal with Sheik but it's Marth who is hard to keep up with. I think I should spam sausages like a maniac most of the time to keep the pressure to a minimum. Then when I see I can probably fair more than Dtilt.

Please give me your input on the Marth match up guys; ps: Thanks for the discussion =) .
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CLASS OF 2009!!!

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

THe way I play against marth with Gaw is the way I play against him with IC, which is dancing around outside his range until you can get an opening. I find that IC and GaW actually play very similiarly.

 

[The Phenom]

They do? I guess I have to redeem myself from getting to close then.

As for how you dance with him; set your spacing. I recently added a Neutral Ground into my spacing game. I think that this type of empty shffl or just shuffle could possibly be the best shuffling mix up into Game and Watch's spacing/dancing. It's quick and flashy at the same time and offers obscurity of show as to what the player is doing; I like it =).

Back to Marth...his speed...how do you deal with it *P*L*U*R*.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

They do? I guess I have to redeem myself from getting to close then.

As for how you dance with him; set your spacing. I recently added a Neutral Ground into my spacing game. I think that this type of empty shffl or just shuffle could possibly be the best shuffling mix up into Game and Watch's spacing/dancing. It's quick and flashy at the same time and offers obscurity of show as to what the player is doing; I like it =).

Back to Marth...his speed...how do you deal with it *P*L*U*R*.

You mean attack speed or movement speed? What I do is Dash-dance around alot into empty short-hops and wavelands. Sometimes I waveland into his range hoping that he misspaces a FAir so I can grab him. Or I CC a misspaced Fair into a Utilt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not good but I find that works for me. Marth still wrecks this match-up. >_<

 

[runningbrave]

Mr. G vs Marth, Fox, Sheik, Peach, Samus... all impossible match-ups. It is fun playing Fox though. You can do some very mean and creative stuff.

 

[The Phenom]

I agree. I'll still do the matches though for a couple of matches then go to my secondary; FOX, to feel all better LOL.

ps: Hi Runningbrave =)



edit: ooh yeah!!!! I have 10 minutes worth of orgasmic Mr.Game and Watch combos =D !!! You guys better watch it when I release it!!! Trailer to be released on the day of my high school graduation date; June 18, 2009. Get hyped Game and Watch players and all other types of character mains!

 

[ChivalRuse]

GaW's uthrow ***** Fox. Not only can you chaingrab, you can pretty much do anything out of it (hammer included, woohoo!) depending on DI.

Yes, Fox's tech chases hurt. But don't forget: you can tech chase him back. Own his getup options. If you manage to get him on the ground, jab him (thunders) to grab or just land a strong hit. Get him off the stage and edgeguard with dtilt, fsmash, fair, nair. You can combo him as well as he can combo you. Don't forget about the amazing utilt!

 

[The Phenom]

There is this one combo that I still yet have to record. It's a bair to a uair to a utilt to a up smash and rest any appropriate follow ups. This works on Fox, Falco, pretty much all heavies. It's very nice. All the hits should connect; meaning they are stunned for the time being when executing the combos.
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CLASS OF 2009!!! NOW WITH 10 MINUTES WORTH OF EXCELLENT G&W COMBO MATERIAL!!!! YESSSS!!!!!!!!!

 

[j00t]

Fox is GnW's easiest top tier matchup... GnW can chaingrab Fox and Falco with dthrow from around 55% until they DI off the stage. Then you just fsmash.

Sheik is easily GnW's worst matchup. No need discussing that one

I feel that Marth vs. GnW isn't as bad as I once thought, but it's still like 65/35 in Marth's favor at the least. Marth is going to keep his distance most of the time, so you just have to approach at the right time. And then get grabbed lulz

Falco vs. GnW is just mean. GnW has ridic combos on Falco but Falco has lasers and dair + other stuff, no need discussing that one either

Captain Falcon vs. GnW is actually almost even IMO. If not then 60/40 Falcon. Falcon usually has around even matchups vs. most of the low-tier cast, and GnW is no exception. To me it's just a matter of who is playing better at the time, because GnW can counter or atleast trade on most of Falcon's approaches.

Peach vs. GnW... don't even try. It's bad.

Jigglypuff vs. GnW is actually a doable matchup, not in GnW's favor but it's a possible matchup at the least. Jiggs will just space her bairs but you can get a solid fair in if you time it right. And dthrow -> nair always works.

ICs vs. GnW... ugh. >_>;

And that's my short GnW matchup review, if you want me to go into more detail then... just tell me.

 

[The Phenom]

First up; what's up JWT2K6! and good match up review.

This clears up the Jiggs match up for me. I had to fight Jiggs once and I just tried my regular play strategy and didn't go so well. The Fair seems to be the only option it seems in order to keep up and have a chance to capitalize on a mistake later on for the kill.

Captian Falcon; I had no idea it was almost a even match up; possibly.


For the Falco vs. Game and Watch match up. Do you run and duck the lasers and approach this way? I'm thinking of brushing up on this more to see how useful it can be. I haven't heavily applied it before. Maybe you have and have a opinion about it?

 

[j00t]

First up; what's up JWT2K6! and good match up review.

This clears up the Jiggs match up for me. I had to fight Jiggs once and I just tried my regular play strategy and didn't go so well. The Fair seems to be the only option it seems in order to keep up and have a chance to capitalize on a mistake later on for the kill.

Captian Falcon; I had no idea it was almost a even match up; possibly.


For the Falco vs. Game and Watch match up. Do you run and duck the lasers and approach this way? I'm thinking of brushing up on this more to see how useful it can be. I haven't heavily applied it before. Maybe you have and have a opinion about it?

I have a lot of trouble vs. Falco. I think Falco can laser low enough so that it hits a ducking GnW - I'm not entirely sure on this though. All I know is that GnW is a sitting duck for lasers anywhere he is - on the ground or in the air. I'm seriously contemplating trying the bucket

 

[The Phenom]

Yes; Falco could laser Game and Watch when he is ducking low but it takes some work for them to get there lasers very low. If we are in the air we will get shut down and if we stay down we well get spammed and then shield pressured. Well I'm going to apply it and see what happens.

New subject; on any match up type.

I also started to play a more slower style tempo. This allowed for better concentration. I would play a much faster tempo before because playing at faster tempo allows for better understanding of your opponents actions more as said by a couple of other smashers.

ummm...What tempo speed do you fight on. How well do you do.

 

[ChivalRuse]

My Fox and Falco are all about pressuring, but I try to throw in a lot of mindgames at random moments. The reason for this is because if you pressure someone enough, they're going to start making easily punishable mistakes, and that's when it helps to read them.

With GaW I have a completely different style. I just waveland around the platforms waiting for an opportunity to drop through a platform with a fair/bair. If I get cornered I just throw out fsmashes and pray my opponent runs into it. Sometimes I'll CC > dtilt too though.

I really only spam fairs/dtilts/fsmashes, when I'm not running around the stage looking for openings.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Falco vs. GnW is just mean. GnW has ridic combos on Falco but Falco has lasers and dair + other stuff, no need discussing that one either

I've noticed that most Falcos don't even bother to get their lasers super-low. That can kinda help you with powershielding if you shield the laser when its right above you when you're crouching.
The falco I play against go about even in our Falco vs GaW matchups but I've actually been thinking a little lately. I was thinking about whether I could immediately Utilt out of a crouch and whether that would be active soon enough to cut through his Dair so that **** would ensue.

It's definitely Falco's advantage but if you can SOMEHOW get past his laser game, it's almost even because they both combo the **** out of each other. You can also edgeguard his brains out really easily.

Captain Falcon vs. GnW is actually almost even IMO. If not then 60/40 Falcon. Falcon usually has around even matchups vs. most of the low-tier cast, and GnW is no exception. To me it's just a matter of who is playing better at the time, because GnW can counter or atleast trade on most of Falcon's approaches.

For the most part, Falcon's priority is so low that you can beat him on 90% of his approaches it you call him on it. But that's true for just about all characters. The tricky thing about CF is getting through his Dash-dance camping and NOT getting grabbed. If CF grabs you, you are ****ed because GaW is so easy to tech-chase and CF's tech-chasing potential is broken. Overall, they both combo the balls off of each other but CF just has more options. One of my favorite High tier match-ups.

Peach vs. GnW... don't even try. It's bad.

LOL Dash attack clanks with Dsmash. :3
I do better in this matchup with GaW than I do with my IC. Either way, yeah, it's dumb. I'm certain that our Bair is godlike in this match-up through. I'm positive that it cuts through everything that Peach has. The bad thing is that she can shield-pressure better than probably anyone in the game and GaWs shield is stupidly bad.

ICs vs. GnW... ugh. >_>;
Space Fair on shields. NEVER miss that L-cancel. Dtilt immediately afterwards. Bair usually bites toes if done of a partially worn shield so don't be afraid to throw it out sometimes.
Still IC's advantage I guess, though, I dunno. I haven't gone against any good ICs, apparently. :/

Bolded stuff

 

[QERB]

Bolded stuff

good **** there P*L*U*R*

just to add on some of the things...

Falco

I feel like against falco's d-airs, it's more of a prediction to get out the u-tilt in time rather than a reflex. you have to guess when falco's going to stop lasering and get you with the d-air, and begin u-tilting before his jump, because the u-tlit has too much pre-lag to treat it as a reflex out of the crouch when you see the d-air coming. and if you do hit him with the u-tilt, you're in really good shape and you can potentially take a stock quickly. if he's at low %s, you can grab out of the u-tilt, if he's at mid %s (50-70 ish) you can d-air out of the flag and do the bombsoldier combo or simply just n-air out of the flag at higher %s.

Also against falco's lasers, if you're playing a falco that can shoot every laser that scrapes the ground perfectly...then that sucks... but EVEN IF the falco does shoot lasers pretty well, you can still approach using a full jumped d-air, as it has more priority than all of falco's aerials (if placed correctly). you just have to watch out for falco shield grabbing or shining out of the shield. also as p*l*u*r* mentioned, power-shielding a few lasers here or there definitely disrupts falco's approach. so it's not too bad. and if there are platforms, dodging lasers should not be a huge trouble. obvsiously FD sucks against falco, since he can get his mathos laser spamming on. but GW can also cg the **** out of falco on fd and get nice gimps at the edge.

Yes falco can combo GW, but I dont think it's as good as GW can potentially combo falco. GW can DI out of the shine at fairly low %s (except for on stages like battlefield, I would say, because the platforms are placed at good spots for GW).

All in all falco definitely has the advantage over GW, but I would definitely say it's a better matchup for GW than what it says on the Melee Matchup Chart in the Melee discussion which says 20-80 in falco's favor. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234220 I don't think it's that **** of a matchup for falco.

 

[The Phenom]

Hey I remember you QERB ! Good insight on utilting before Falco's jump. I completely undermined the reality of the opening lag for the utilt; thanks for putting that out there. I seriously have to bear that in mind lol.
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Trailer June 18-19? 2009. CLASS OF 2009!!!

 

[Cosmo!]

I'm actually pretty curious about G&W cause I used him in like 2005

the metagame is vastly different now and G&W is a really interesting character in terms of what his strengths and weaknesses are. I wouldn't be surprised to see G&W have some very decent matchups against certain high-top tiers, even in todays metagame. seemingly untapped potential, but i dunno

 

[j00t]

I tried the whole "utilt before Falco dairs" thing and it is extremely hard for me to do, especially out of a crouch trying to dodge all the lasers.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

How about a chair? Is the hitbox high enough to intercept his shorthop and active soon enough to be able to?

I have no one to play against ATM so I can't test it.

 

[QERB]

I tried the whole "utilt before Falco dairs" thing and it is extremely hard for me to do, especially out of a crouch trying to dodge all the lasers.

you're right, up-tilting out of the crouch is pretty difficult and time consuming to catch an approaching lasering falco. One thing that definitely helps with this is, do not stay stationary while falco approaches. don't stay in a crouched position dodging falco's lasers while he approaches sincethat makes it way too easy for him to start his combos. you should be wd'ing back and/or forth as he approaches to make it difficult for him to land that d-air.

I think one of the best tactics to do right when falco is about to d-air at you is wd backwards. if he misses it, you can throw a d-tilt and prop him up. also, it's much easier to u-tilt out of a wavedash rather than a crouch.

a full jumped d-air is not a bad choice either right before he gets close, although it sounds weird. anything that forces falco to put up his shield helps. if you land in front of him, you can d-tilt him before he can shield grab which is nice. but if he keeps his shield up during the d-tilt, that leaves you open for a d-air out of the shield, so its a risk.

if you land behind him, you can u-tilt out of the d-air, expecting him to jump out of the shield (which falco frequently does). I feel like up-tilting a falco's shield is a pretty a good idea since falco's jump out of the shield so often. if you don't wanna does this you can just wd away and space out.

man falco's annoying lol...

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm actually pretty curious about G&W cause I used him in like 2005

the metagame is vastly different now and G&W is a really interesting character in terms of what his strengths and weaknesses are. I wouldn't be surprised to see G&W have some very decent matchups against certain high-top tiers, even in todays metagame. seemingly untapped potential, but i dunno

GaW sort of has the curse of being different (like Pichu and ICs; the first damages himself = HUGE turnoff and is SUPER light; the latter is two characters, which means you have to develop an entirely different playstyle and slowly go through the learning curve that is ICs desynching/metagame).

GaW's drawbacks are:

1. Worst shield in the game. You must master lightshielding.
2. Three of his aerials cannot be l-cancelled.
3. Uber light.

Those are just some things that make people say "heck, no" when it comes to GaW.

I think when you decide to pick up a character you have to accept its weaknesses and just focus on minimizing them while maximizing its strengths.

Things like, GaW has:

1. A modestly good recovery.
2. A great grab game.
3. Disjointed hitboxes.
4. Above par range on his aerials.
5. A fast wavedash.
6. Excellent edgeguarding abililty.
7. A projectile.
8. Reliable finishers.
9. A fast jab, and easily controlled a combo.
10. Judgement hammer.

 

[Cactuar]

So, I can't seem to really find any GaW tournament match videos... wanna like... point some good ones out for me? Preferably recent ones.

 

[runningbrave]

Cactuar, I'm like 99% sure there are no recent Mr. G vids out. I don't think any of us who claim to use him have actually used him in tourney as of late.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

So, I can't seem to really find any GaW tournament match videos... wanna like... point some good ones out for me? Preferably recent ones.

The only good gnw vids are dire from mlg events lol

 

[j00t]

Cactuar, I'm like 99% sure there are no recent Mr. G vids out. I don't think any of us who claim to use him have actually used him in tourney as of late.

I used him in tourney at TO4 :x

Too bad they weren't recorded!

 

[j00t]

you're right, up-tilting out of the crouch is pretty difficult and time consuming to catch an approaching lasering falco. One thing that definitely helps with this is, do not stay stationary while falco approaches. don't stay in a crouched position dodging falco's lasers while he approaches sincethat makes it way too easy for him to start his combos. you should be wd'ing back and/or forth as he approaches to make it difficult for him to land that d-air.

I think one of the best tactics to do right when falco is about to d-air at you is wd backwards. if he misses it, you can throw a d-tilt and prop him up. also, it's much easier to u-tilt out of a wavedash rather than a crouch.

a full jumped d-air is not a bad choice either right before he gets close, although it sounds weird. anything that forces falco to put up his shield helps. if you land in front of him, you can d-tilt him before he can shield grab which is nice. but if he keeps his shield up during the d-tilt, that leaves you open for a d-air out of the shield, so its a risk.

if you land behind him, you can u-tilt out of the d-air, expecting him to jump out of the shield (which falco frequently does). I feel like up-tilting a falco's shield is a pretty a good idea since falco's jump out of the shield so often. if you don't wanna does this you can just wd away and space out.

man falco's annoying lol...

Well yah, I never stay in place against a Falco. I tend to ban FD against him (obv.) and use platforms the best I can whenever Falco's being gay and sitting back.

Wavedashing backwards is better than utilting, but it is still easy to punish because it is pretty much your best option when Falco approaches you. They can just predict it and wait on their dair.

I'm trying to master lightshielding currently, for me it's just about the mindset.My main is Falcon so I don't need to lightshield much at all.

/doublepost

 

[Cosmo!]

is "half" lightshield better than "full" (z buffered) lightshield for G&W?

even though it covers his body better, full lightshielding has more shield hitstun

 

[j00t]

is "half" lightshield better than "full" (z buffered) lightshield for G&W?

even though it covers his body better, full lightshielding has more shield hitstun

Full lightshielding is easier to do, and IMO the extra shield stun isn't too big of a concern. I say full is better. Your main concern should be not getting hit while shielding regardless.

 

[Cosmo!]

anybody have info on G&W's dashgrab VS JC grab? is dash grab ever worth it? I can't really tell how far he's reaching or the duration. seems it stays out for awhile though? (messing w/ chaingrabbing a little bit)

 

[j00t]

anybody have info on G&W's dashgrab VS JC grab? is dash grab ever worth it? I can't really tell how far he's reaching or the duration. seems it stays out for awhile though? (messing w/ chaingrabbing a little bit)

I'm pretty sure his dash grab is terrible, as in it goes nowhere.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Somebody needs to just master GaW and play him with (at least some) success in tourney. That would be epic.

 

[QERB]

Somebody needs to just master GaW and play him with (at least some) success in tourney. That would be epic.

Well if Dire was still playing as G&W we could get alot of insight from him. But his style with G&W was very laid back and not as combo-oriented. too mindgamey lol. And i think he started playing yoshi or something. i dunno of any other tourney lvl gw's other than maybe bombsoldiers...but he always played falco in tourneys.

That's why we gotta pool our gw experience together so we can get better! lol there's probably only like 8 of us or so anyways /=

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well if Dire was still playing as G&W we could get alot of insight from him. But his style with G&W was very laid back and not as combo-oriented. too mindgamey lol. And i think he started playing yoshi or something. i dunno of any other tourney lvl gw's other than maybe bombsoldiers...but he always played falco in tourneys.

That's why we gotta pool our gw experience together so we can get better! lol there's probably only like 8 of us or so anyways /=

I guess we should all just get better together.

Play good people, post videos, and discuss discuss discuss everything.

 

[The Phenom]

Out of all times the game and watch board is active I have no internet =( . Well after getting to play 2 more
Melee smashers who both live in a 15 minute radius of where I live, I feel happier =) There are 20 Melee smashers in my area within 25 minutes!

I have this one method of getting a grab on opponents who don't have projectiles. I simply toss out a sausage/bacon to my opponents. They would either take the hit or shield allowing me enough time to grab them. I have done this many times and I find it sufficient enough to attempt all the times I want a grab.

The sausage/bacon you would want to attempt a grab after would be the one with the farthest trajectory horizontal wise. I have videos but I'm busy uploading my trailer at the moment lol; I'm kinda late on uploading my combo video trailer =P.
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CLASS OF 2009!!!

 

[yuki]

/Bump

Hi there, as my first input in these G&W boards I'd like to try and input some information on the GAW - Falco and GAW - Shiek match-ups as these are matchups I come across frequently.

GAW vs Falco
Alright Falco is obviously a really hard matchup. I find that you can usually duck under a couple of his lasers before he gets it and shoots lower. Some falco players mess this up because the timing is different so they have trouble with their muscle - memory. So duck, a lot under his lasers. When he tries to approach with pillaring there are three things you need to do.
Anticipate, Space and payback.

E.G. Falco comes at you and you anticipate this. I like to wavedash backwards or short hop backwards out of his dair range . if you space this correctly you can generally payback with an arial (I like dair, followed up by dtilt) or you can d- or f-tilt out of your wavedash (Obviously depending on the situation.) As many have said before me you can combo the bird so combo the bird. Try to get him to come to the edge. I like to counterpick FoD Because it meese up his short hops and you can nair through the platforms. O and one more usefull thing I found is that if you do get pillared by the bird. Try DI'ing it upwards sometime. This sometimes throws falco players off resulting in them missing the sweetspot of the followed-up dair leaving at lower percentages this can lead to you being above him which opens up possibilities for dairs and all the good that can come from that.

GAW vs Shiek
Here in Holland there's loads of shiek players. Shiek is a ***** your puny shield is no match for her dsmash and needles are a true horror too. you CAN however duck under her needles if she throws them from the ground (Which some of them do out of teched dthrows and such) always keep this in mind cause the more you dodge the longer you'll live. Secondly depending on the percentage you can quite easily combo a d- or u-throw into a fulljump nair which I always find helpfull and can set up for an edgeguard. About edge-guarding: There's one trick that I always found very effective against shiek. If you hang from the ledge you know shiek has to go up on the stage in order to survive. Now if you anticipate this correctly the moment the liitle explosion happens (or even the first couple of frames before that where she sort of hops ) you can get on the stage and punish her wind down lag with a smash attack or a hammer (If you're feelling lucky) I also once hit her with the pan out of which my sausages come and that sent her in quite a nice angle back off too.

Hope this was helpful and hope this works in the american version as well.
Sorry for my bad grammar

 

[The Phenom]

GAW vs Shiek
Here in Holland there's loads of shiek players. Shiek is a ***** your puny shield is no match for her dsmash and needles are a true horror too. you CAN however duck under her needles if she throws them from the ground (Which some of them do out of teched dthrows and such) always keep this in mind cause the more you dodge the longer you'll live. Secondly depending on the percentage you can quite easily combo a d- or u-throw into a fulljump nair which I always find helpfull and can set up for an edgeguard. About edge-guarding: There's one trick that I always found very effective against shiek. If you hang from the ledge you know shiek has to go up on the stage in order to survive. Now if you anticipate this correctly the moment the liitle explosion happens (or even the first couple of frames before that where she sort of hops ) you can get on the stage and punish her wind down lag with a smash attack or a hammer (If you're feelling lucky) I also once hit her with the pan out of which my sausages come and that sent her in quite a nice angle back off too.

Hope this was helpful and hope this works in the american version as well.
Sorry for my bad grammar

I didn't know I could duck under needles from Shiek; I'll test this out later to see if it works for our verison of the game.
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Jigglypuff vs. Game and Watch


One of the toughest matches for Game and Watch is Jiggs. It is very hard to approach her with most of game and watches moves. What I like to do is hurl sausages/bacon on Jiggs until she gets hit by one and I fair her instantly. It does good damage and it puts pressure on Jiggs to float out of the area. If she tries to puff herself over the sausages/bacon you are hurling to her, just jump as how high she is in the air and hurl some more; it's all about pressuring Jiggs so the player can make a mistake and get hit by a sausage/bacon so you can follow it up with a fair.
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CLASS OF 2009!!!