Why the hate on smash4?

[lijero13ss]

I am being absolutely serious, and am trying to find answers to the one question i have been wondering about the most. Please i would love for there to be serious replies in this thread and no "Smash4 is for noobs/casual" or "melee is only spacies" talk here.

I joined the competitive scene when smash 4 came out, i dont play melee competitively, so just some background info there.

Now, i have noticed whenever i watch any cool smash 4 tourney videos, or also apex 2015, there has been a lot of comments from mostly (i understand not all), but mostly Melee fans bashing on smash 4. And apparently this happened with brawl as well, which if im not mistaken, died off as a popular competitive game.

So being pretty much new to the smash scene and all, i never understood, Why the hate on Smash 4? Is there something the Melee scene is afraid of? Do you think Smash 4 might overtake Melee popularity? Or tournament game spots will put in Smash 4 instead of Melee? Are you afraid that Smash 4 will kill the Melee scene? Real talk, why all the hate? I mean, i don't see why the Melee community shows some sort of need to bash on Smash 4, when they can enjoy the great game that Melee is instead.

Thanks

 

[Beach]

Well for one Smash 4 takes significantly longer and is slower in general, with less hype and tension.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Well some people are always going to be losers about anything if they can help it.
People also want to feel good about themselves and their tastes, and joining in bashing the opposing side can give them confidence that they are 'right' in their own tastes.
Some people may be trying to discourage Smash 4 competitively out of fear, yes.

Not saying this IS anyone's motivations, just stating possibilities.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I tried to start explaining why smash 4 is bad and then realized I would run out of post space
So I tried to start writing a book about why smash 4 is bad and then I realized I didn't have enough paper
So I went to tech school and tried to build a super computer that could process and understand for me why its terrible
And then my computer crashed because the reasons it found exceeded its memory capacity

So then I looked to lucid dreaming and I tried to learn how to slow down time in my dreams so I could have 1,000 years of life every night I sleep trying to finish coming up with reasons
And then I realize I would die IRL before I could finish finding them all

So then I looked into finding the answer to immortality so that I could live for billions of years to finally come up with all the reasons why it is bad
And then I realized the universe would end before I found all the reasons

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I don't get the hate for any Smash game, quite frankly. Each one has its flaws (yes, even Melee, all you fanboys out there), and each one plays radically different from the others. Smash 64 is Hitstun the Game, Melee is Super Turbo Combo Space Animals, Brawl is Positioning Away from Meta Knight, and Smash 4 is Hoo Hah City Melee Meets Brawl: New Mechanics Galore. If you don't like one of these -- absolutely talking to more than just the Melee community (though most heavily towards them) -- then just shut up about it and don't play it. It's not going to take your precious away from you.

Toxicity is what tears a community apart, and we've already seen this with the Smash Civil War back in the Brawl era; we don't need to see that again. Just play your damn game(s) and have fun.

Well for one Smash 4 takes significantly longer and is slower in general, with less hype and tension.

Most Smash 4 tournaments I've seen have actually had matches completed faster than the average Melee match. For reference, more often than not, matches have ended in under 2 minutes. You can say "2 stock vs. 4 stock" all you want, but Smash 4 has revamped ledge mechanics & larger blast zones that make 2 stock ideal. I'm dead certain Smash 4 was designed with a 2 stock format in mind for its metagame, given that this is the first game in the series to actually acknowledge that competitive play is a thing.

I tried to start explaining why smash 4 is bad and then realized I would run out of post space
So I tried to start writing a book about why smash 4 is bad and then I realized I didn't have enough paper
So I went to tech school and tried to build a super computer that could process and understand for me why its terrible
And then my computer crashed because the reasons it found exceeded its memory capacity

So then I looked to lucid dreaming and I tried to learn how to slow down time in my dreams so I could have 1,000 years of life every night I sleep trying to finish coming up with reasons
And then I realize I would die IRL before I could finish finding them all

So then I looked into finding the answer to immortality so that I could live for billions of years to finally come up with all the reasons why it is bad
And then I realized the universe would end before I found all the reasons

It's toxic (and laughably pathetic) posts like this that make outsiders & newcomers hate the Melee community and actively seek to avoid it. Congratulations.

 

[Beach]

-snip-

I mainly was referring to how long each set can take, and personally without having all these flashy combo's and tech to watch it just kind of seems bland. I still find it fun to play but when it comes to these tournaments Melee will always reign supreme because of the developed meta game and the assortment of options.

 

[9Blades]

Because its not Melee

But mainly because it really does take a long time. Everyone can live way longer than they can and the blast zones are too far out.
EDIT: And that chimp named Diddy.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Because its not Melee

But mainly because it really does take a long time. Everyone can live way longer than they can and the blast zones are too far out.
EDIT: And that chimp named Diddy.

Melee Fox is far stronger than Smash 4 Diddy ( in their respective environments ) from what I hear.
The meta game is still undeveloped also.

 

[ZomBiehn]

Brawl brought it upon its self, can't blame the community there, but as for Sm4sh I see it staying and growing more and more every year, it was watched and praised the whole time I was at APEX, I can see tournaments dropping Brawl entirely though

 

[MartianMedia]

I am more of a Smash 4 player, but as far as watching a tournament goes I will take Melee over 4 any day. Apex last night was so hype that I'm going home this weekend and getting my Gamecube just to play Melee again.

Both games are good in their own right, Melee because of its fast-paced, technical play that's fun to watch, and Smash 4 due to it's welcoming style of play. A lot of people (in my experience) don't go to Melee tournaments because it can takes months or even years to learn everything and get it down to a science, whereas Smash 4 can be pretty quickly learned in a few weeks. I've been trying to tell Melee elitists this since Sm4sh came out, but we all have to remember that these games are designed with simple playstyles in mind now. As much as we don't want to believe it, Melee was sort of a happy accident, but it's one that we'll see in tournaments for a long time to come because of the hype it can create.

TL;DR: They're both good games, it's just a matter of how technical you want to be with them.

 

[Beach]

Melee Fox is far stronger than Smash 4 Diddy ( in their respective environments ) from what I hear.
The meta game is still undeveloped also.

It's more that Diddy has several true combos and good/easy kill options in a game where that isn't as common.

 

[EPsilon933]

Pride. People like feeling like they're better than someone else. Just don't let it turn toxic like

I tried to start explaining why smash 4 is bad and then realized I would run out of post space
So I tried to start writing a book about why smash 4 is bad and then I realized I didn't have enough paper
So I went to tech school and tried to build a super computer that could process and understand for me why its terrible
And then my computer crashed because the reasons it found exceeded its memory capacity

So then I looked to lucid dreaming and I tried to learn how to slow down time in my dreams so I could have 1,000 years of life every night I sleep trying to finish coming up with reasons
And then I realize I would die IRL before I could finish finding them all

So then I looked into finding the answer to immortality so that I could live for billions of years to finally come up with all the reasons why it is bad
And then I realized the universe would end before I found all the reasons

Or is that too much to ask for on the internet?

 

[lijero13ss]

So from what i've read so far from the legitimate answers, a lot of it has to do w/ the fact that Smash 4 viewing is sort of boring/bland vs. Melee where there is a lot going on and it isn't boring to watch.

I mean, as a smsah 4 player, i somewhat agree, to a certain extend. Smash 4 definitely has its hype matches, unfortunately there are some MUs that end up being very boring, i will agree with that.

Now, this brings up my question from before: Why do you bash it though? Yes, ill agree it is not as exciting to watch as Melee, but how come you don't just leave it alone in that case?

 

[Beach]

So from what i've read so far from the legitimate answers, a lot of it has to do w/ the fact that Smash 4 viewing is sort of boring/bland vs. Melee where there is a lot going on and it isn't boring to watch.

I mean, as a smsah 4 player, i somewhat agree, to a certain extend. Smash 4 definitely has its hype matches, unfortunately there are some MUs that end up being very boring, i will agree with that.

Now, this brings up my question from before: Why do you bash it though? Yes, ill agree it is not as exciting to watch as Melee, but how come you don't just leave it alone in that case?

Well for Apex yesterday people were getting flustered over the 4 hour long top 8, with a lot of campy game play. Honestly I think most of the hate comes from the fact that Brawl and 4 both require significantly less tech skill. Less skill needed in the eyes of many makes a casuals game and therefor not worthy of the time it takes up.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I mainly was referring to how long each set can take, and personally without having all these flashy combo's and tech to watch it just kind of seems bland. I still find it fun to play but when it comes to these tournaments Melee will always reign supreme because of the developed meta game and the assortment of options.

The sets were long because they were best 3/5 the entire Top 8... for whatever reason. Best 2/3 goes by at a solid pace.

Melee will definitely garner more hype no matter what, though, that's for sure. It's had over 13 years to develop its metagame, and with it basically being one giant technical oversight, its AT runs rampant.

 

[Kuraudo]

Meanwhile Melee actually took longer than Smash 4 did.

 

[Beach]

Yeah the 3/5 was too much, but Melee has the strings and tactics that can drastically change momentum of a game which is why I believe it is found to be more interesting. Brawl and Smash 4 are more simplistic and straight forward with what is happening. @ Kuraudo While it did take longer people complained about smash 4 because it was delaying melee's top 8 and that Dabuz was going all out camping so it wasn't all too exciting or hype.

 

[Kadano]

Smash 4 is Melee Meets Brawl: New Mechanics Galore.

Joined: Tuesday

“Smash 4 = Melee + Brawl” is really not the case, but I can see how it might seem that way to new players.
You can ask every Melee player out there how they feel about Brawl and Smash 4, and 90+% will tell you that what they love about Melee is neither in Brawl nor in Smash 4.


Our problem is unity. #OneUnit is a hoax, every smash game is its separate unit. As long as livestream channels host the brackets of Melee and Smash 4 in succession instead of parallel on different streams (or, even better, have Melee-exclusive and Smash4-exclusive tournaments), Meleetists (which I identify as) will rant about Smash 4 because all they care about is Melee and they don’t want to sit through hours of a game they find boring.

Also, concerning the character viability thing: One good thing about Melee is that its best characters are both fun to watch and fun to play. Hell, Fox could be the only character in Melee and I would still love that game. As @MaNg0 put it: “1 good smash is worth 10000 bad smashes”, and to me, the same is true for characters. I prefer Melee Fox over 10000 Smash 4 characters any day.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

. . .
So being pretty much new to the smash scene and all, i never understood, Why the hate on Smash 4?
. . .

There are multiple reasons why people express anger towards Smash 4, or its players, here are a few:

- People impatiently desire that Smash 4 players learn Melee over Smash 4
- People feel jealous when they see Smash 4 getting hype and praise
- People acknowledge that Melee gets praise, so some players want to 'get in' on that praise by exclaiming their status as being part of the Melee in-crowd

There are some more subtle reasons but these are the major ones. I feel fairly confident saying that many players who speak out against Smash 4 just do it 'hastily' - ironically, because they don't want the negative conversations to be had, and they do this as a feeble attempt to dissuade anyone from drawing attention to the game, so it can become a 'non-issue', if that makes sense (people do this with other topics all the time, if you notice). Some top-level smashers see Smash 4 as not a competitively 'viable' title, or at least not in any way that Melee is, for that matter, and so some heavily-informed opinions do exist on the matter (pro players are heavily-informed on the subject). A recent example.

But, like these top-level players, more mature Melee players would soon recognize the differences between Smash 4 and its counterparts (I even kept silent until I played the game myself, just to be sure), and would either keep silent on the matter or speak their opinion on the matter and leave it be (a recent example I think does a good job of this), or even then patiently and kindly talk about Smash games as a whole, acknowledging that some people prefer Smash 4, just like any person may, and accepting that fact (even if that person may appear stubborn to you, which may be a perceptual difference and not fact). People often aren't persuaded overnight, especially when you come at them with criticism instead of *cough* combo videos (show them the moves).



As for the Brawl-Melee debates (some history here), I observed largely that people produced poor arguments for either side, and neither of the vocal groups were able to communicate with each other publicly and this created strife. I look at the Washington Smash scene for an example: Brawl came out, was actively played for a short while, and then quietly Brawl stopped being talked about and Melee resurged as the competitive Smash title in the state. Many tournament-going players just weren't interested in the game, and there were players who started on Brawl who eventually came to play Melee. Brawl was still a very active game in the dorms of universities and the average person would talk about it you asked them about smash, but it wasn't really found at your local Smash meetups, the players who went to compete.

 

[Ohsm]

Kadano with the truth.

90% of the people at Apex wanted to see Melee. Leffen slayed the last god, the 1000 $ MM was about to happen, the crowd went wild and then ... Smash 4 top 8 started.
The most anticlimactic Hype-Killer ever.
No wonder everyone goes crazy.

This problem could be solved easily if we had two streams, one for Melee and one for Smash4, but our new glorious sponsorship with Nintendo would never allow that. The viewercount would plummet to the abyss for Smash 4 because a huge amount of people would switch over to the Melee stream in a heartbeat. The 80 k viewers would go down to around 10-20k.

The main thing that annoys me the most as a so called "Melee-Elitist" is that Smash 4(/Brawl) would be nothing without Melee.
If the Melee scene never existed Smash4(/Brawl) would be as competitively played as Mario Party and Nintendo knows this by now so they used the sucsess of Melee to promote there new game.
As a result the Melee players where forced to watch a game they don't want for a whole 3 to 4 hours. No wonder the whole crowd began with a Melee chants directly after Zero won Smash4.

What did we got from the Nintendo sponsorship?
No PM?
No Pot Bonus?
Forced to watch Smash 4?

Imo, just split the communities in two.
Melee/Project M with the strong grassroots community
and Smash 4 with the new Nintendo sponsorship.

People need to realise that the only thing the two games have in common is the name "Super Smash Brothers", other than that they are like black and white.
I have absolutly nothing against Smash4 at all as long as it won't interrupt Melee.

But that's just my 2 cents.

#OneUnit

 

[AirFair]

To be honest I don't have any problems with it, I have all of the smash games. The thing is that like what was said above, the matches take longer and and not as hype as Melee was.

The reason Melee took so long was not only because of the venue change (true for both actually) but because we also had 1,000+ entrants as well. Like what Kadano said, #OneUnit is pretty much a farce. I could cope with more than one game on a stream, but a lot of people would rather have had the two separate.

 

[Kadano]

What did we got from the Nintendo sponsorship?
No PM?
No Pot Bonus?
Forced to watch Smash 4?

It seems Nintendo delivered sixty-four Melee setups, according to @hectohertz. That does seem helpful to me; enough to make me feel positive about them. I mean, sure, they are still pretty reluctant when they could make easy money and gain community love by simply re-releasing Melee in some way. Yet, I interpret them providing Melee setups as them seeking a symbiotic relationship, instead of only milling the Melee community so they sell more Smash 4 stuff.

 

[ssknight7]

This is getting old. Everyone knows how bad smash 4 is and why. Instead of getting baited into this anymore, whenever smash 4 comes up just say "it's fine" and the more they try to press you on it just say "yeah you're right it really is a great game"

Melee should go it's own way and let the others go theirs. these games have nothing to do with one another

 

[N00B64]

>all of these people who use "toxic" as a word
I want SJWs to leave


but seriously, people hate smash 4 because its slow.
it purposefully made combo's hard as **** or completely free, landing lag is so terrible besides for a select few characters that can autocancel decent moves out of short hop, and just like brawl the game caters heavily twords defensive play, and punishes agrro.

without movement options you can't even bait people well without the game just becoming a rock paper scissors fight.

its boring to play, its boring to watch, and nintendo is pushing it and wasting everyone's time when the game can't even play better then the first game in the series.

its alright for you to like it, but it does not have any place taking the spotlight from better games in the competitive smash scene, at least until SLHG is used for tourny, but that will never happen.

 

[Ohsm]

It seems Nintendo delivered sixty-four Melee setups, according to @hectohertz. That does seem helpful to me; enough to make me feel positive about them. I mean, sure, they are still pretty reluctant when they could make easy money and gain community love by simply re-releasing Melee in some way. Yet, I interpret them providing Melee setups as them seeking a symbiotic relationship, instead of only milling the Melee community so they sell more Smash 4 stuff.

Ok didn't know that, I just heard that they brought Smash4 setups, well it's something.

A rerelease of Melee (in HD with more stages) would be awesome but I think this would mainly lie in Sakurai's hands and we all know his mindset towards the competitive community.
He would never approve a remake of Melee, well we can dream <3

 

[PixelPerfect]

Well if it's mainly focused on Apex, there was a possible 1000 dollar money match waiting to happen between Leffen and Mango, plus some camping from a certain player and 3/5 sets didn't help much either. Personally, I don't see why people hate Smash 4. I have often been attacked just for saying "I like playing Smash 4" and I really don't see why all of that is needed, online or offline. Disliking the game and not participating in its competitive scene is something that I understand but the constant insults really aren't needed. We should understand that it's different and accept it since, unfortunately, I doubt Nintendo will ever make Melee HD or a Smash game with Melee physics. I don't like this battle between games at all. This whole war is preventing newcomers from wanting to join the scene in any Smash game, heck, after the Apex stream I almost wanted to drop Smash 4 out of fear of being insulted. We all love Smash in one form or another, so why can't we respect that and let people play what they prefer.

Also, in the Smash Brothers documentary, weren't some of the pros saying how they would love to have Nintendo support the competitive scene and when they do people just complain about it?

This is all coming from someone who enjoys both Melee and Smash 4 competitively.

 

[Charlesz]

HYPE FANSSSS

 

[PixelPerfect]

Ok didn't know that, I just heard that they brought Smash4 setups, well it's something.

A rerelease of Melee (in HD with more stages) would be awesome but I think this would mainly lie in Sakuria's hands and we all know his mindset towards the competitive community.
He would never approve a remake of Melee, well we can dream <3

Sakurai has stated that he is most likely not going to work on the next Smash game. The chance of a rerelease of Melee is still unlikely but there is a slight bit more of a chance.

 

[Kadano]

A rerelease of Melee (in HD with more stages) would be awesome but I think this would mainly lie in Sakuria's hands

They could re-release the Gamecube version without any changes (well, maybe PAL with the 480p query back) and people would buy it like crazy. Used copies are at 50$+ right now, if they started selling it for 20-30, they’d be sold out as quickly as the GCC-USB adapters. There are threads with people asking how to obtain Melee every day, and right now there is no way for them to do so that has Nintendo profit from it.

Also, in the Smash Brothers documentary, weren't some of the pros saying how they would love to have Nintendo support the competitive scene and when they do people just complain about it?

The only thing Nintendo did for Apex that is publicly known well is to have Project M banned. It does seem to me like their no-transparency-policy is hurting them here. If they issued a statement saying “we supported all Smash games by providing dozens of consoles and games at Apex 2015 and want to see all of their competitive scenes grow” or something similar, it would be a lot easier for people to not be suspicious of their intentions.

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

@ Twilight Emblem I'm sorry you got a warning for that, true artists are never understood in their time.

I agree with Kadano, because he tends to be objectively correct about most things, as all Marth players know. The FGC seems to dislike smash, especially its categorization as a fighting game, as its mechanics stray far from traditional fighting game tropes. While this seems like nothing more than semantics (which is the dumbest reason to argue ever), I think it may illustrate something important: smash-style games seem to be a genre of their own. All smash games follow a format, but may vary quite a bit between one another. Comparing Melee to Smash 4 is the equivalent of comparing Street Fighter to Marvel; the two are distinct series, despite overlaps existing. If Smash 4 were made with no ties to Nintendo but with the exact same gameplay, I am positive that it would not have any representation on this site. Does anyone know what happened with Playstation All-Stars? I sure don't. If the only thing tying these scenes together is the Nintendo brand, I don't see why the communities are trying to be so incestuous.

I think I rambled a bit too hard there, my b

 

[fatman667]

Melee elitism honestly exists, at least for me, whenever you bring up another fighting game in my local area (of course it also applies to Smash 4 a lot more). Someone even said to me at a smash tournament, after I mentioned that my main game is Guilty Gear, to drop it and stick with Melee only. Not everyone in my community was like that though, some people are really open about it. All Ipm saying is that Melee elitism exists wherever there's an active scene for it in any area. I love Melee, but the elitists sometimes draws me away from it, since I love Guilty Gear even more. Thankfully not everyone is an elitist in the community. Sorry I didn't speak about Smash 4, but I'm still trying to pick that up, I really enjoy it from the friendlies I joined, and also I needed to get this off my chest for a while now.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

“Smash 4 = Melee + Brawl” is really not the case, but I can see how it might seem that way to new players.
You can ask every Melee player out there how they feel about Brawl and Smash 4, and 90+% will tell you that what they love about Melee is neither in Brawl nor in Smash 4.

When I say "Melee Meets Brawl", I don't mean literally. Obviously lots of Melee's tech is non-existent in Smash 4, but you gotta remember that a huge chunk of that tech wasn't even intentional, right down to wavedashing -- not all of it by any means, but I'd argue that it's the bulk of it, especially in modern day. It's understandable why they're absent, especially with Sakurai not wanting the series to be absurdly technical in order to strike a balance between casual & competitive (something that, quite honestly, only the original Smash & Smash 4 have truly nailed, with Melee being too far on the competitive side, and Brawl being too far on the casual side).

What I mean by "Melee Meets Brawl" is that changes were made coming off of Brawl that have made numerous aspects about the game reminiscent of Melee prior to the discovery of all its technical oversights, while also carrying over the best elements of Brawl to create an ideal Smash game.

Sorry for the confusion.

Edit: Also, what does the time of me joining the forums have to do with anything? It's not like I joined the competitive scene a week ago. I just never got around to making an account here until then. For reference, I've been playing the series since Smash 64, and got into competitive early 2014 (hence my username) with Project M 3.0. I'm a relative newcomer to this scene, so I'm still learning proper execution & mindgames, but I mentally understand all the different games' tech & nuances.

and nintendo is pushing it and wasting everyone's time when the game can't even play better then the first game in the series.

Please explain how a game that runs at 60fps as opposed to 24, has far more input options, and is remarkably more balanced doesn't play better.

This is exactly the kind of mentality that's being referred to as "toxic". It's not social justice, it's reality

 

[AirFair]

I mean, I love melee, because of it's history, and my history with it. It's honestly such an amazingly designed game. But when you make the sequels so drastically different, you can't expect to please everyone. Nintendo should be given the utmost respect for giving us this chance.

 

[Hitzel]

It's pretty simple, really. When there's a passionate cult following for a videogame (Melee) that gets sequels (Brawl, 4) that disappoints that following, the sequels get a lot of hate.

Smash of course isn't unique in that regard, and there are also plenty of games with sequels that didn't disappoint to demonstrate the opposite effect. This phenomenon really isn't special.

So, all you really need to know is that there are a lot of people who are very passionate about a game they really love, who feel very let down by the sequels from a gameplay perspective. That's where all of the negative comments come from.

*edit*

Also, no need to call out Melee players for being scared or whatever. Chill with the backhanded comments if you want the game-hate ones to stop too.

 

[m0ll0y]

I played smash 4 for about a month , and i just wasnt really into it , sure the online play is really cool and you can get some really good games , but its so hard to be aggressive in that game , and you are really rewarded for being defensive . Also the entire edge game is lost too , being that it is much easier to get back to the stage in smash 4 and near impossible to edge grab someone . Just alot of the things that made melee so hype were shrunken down in smash4

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

It's pretty simple, really. When there's a passionate cult following for a videogame (Melee) that gets sequels (Brawl, 4) that dissappoint that following, the sequels get a lot of hate.

Smash of course isn't unique in that regard, and there are of course plenty of games with sequels that didn't dissappoint to demonstrate the opposite effect. This phenomenon really isn't special.

Read: Street Fighter III to Street Fighter IV.

Edit: D1 just said it best.

 

[Hitzel]

99% of the time people try to criticize the other side while sneaking in insults so good luck with that.

A sequel that satisfies everyone is usually the only way to unite everyone.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Because the game is slow, the skill ceiling appears to be lower (I said APPEARS TO BE!!!), the combos are more rigid vs the Melee free-form style, and hoo hah. I would venture as far to say Melee is a better game from a competitive aspect, mostly due to the skill cap. But it also makes it less accessible, so it is a double edged sword.

And this is not to say sm4sh is not a good competitive game, namely that Melee is a very good one. In the end, play what makes you happy. If you like Brawl best, ffs play brawl. But Melee players do get really irritated when sm4sh players say things like "wow guys you need to move on" or stupid nonsense like that.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Does anyone else think that good Smash 4 Diddys and Sheiks are actually decently exciting to watch? Sure watching Rosalina stall until her Luma respawns is pretty dull, but Diddy and Sheik are, or at least can be, effective and exciting rushdown characters. I also enjoyed some of Pac-man's tricks, but unfortunately Rosa can negate them a bit too easily. It's obviously very different when compared to Melee, but it's certainly much more spectator-friendly than Brawl MK vs. ICs.

 

[EPsilon933]

its alright for you to like it, but it does not have any place taking the spotlight from better games in the competitive smash scene, at least until SLHG is used for tourny, but that will never happen.

SLHG would be legit