Worst Smash Bros. Moveset Reworks

[Dededekage Kira]

What were the worst fanmade reworks of Smash movesets you've ever seen?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Anything that completely changes Wario to be nothing but Wario Land references.

 

[Perkilator]

Anything that focuses too hard on shoehorning as many references as possible.

 

[Oracle Link]

Removing Sonic being a ball! Brawl had the right ammount of ball moves they are unique in smash and fit the character perfectly! At most give sonic a boost for side specdial and perhaps rfeplace some Kick or Punch moves with kicks and punches from frontiers! SONIC attacks as a ball (or ramming) 99%Ä of the time

 

[FazDude]

I hesitate to directly name names, but I'll go ahead and list some rework tropes I dislike:

• Anything that goes overboard with references.
• Most implementations of DK having a barrel
• Focusing specifically on BoTW/ToTK Link's toolkit for the main Link
• Samus Ice Beam toggle
• A Showtime-focused rework for Peach
• Young Link transformations
• Dead Man's Volley projectile for Ganondorf (except as a reflector or something)
• Wario reworks that are just Wario Land. Like, I agree, there needs to be more Wario Land representation, but you can strike a balance between that and Ware.

 

[Oracle Link]

• Wario reworks that are just Wario Land. Like, I agree, there needs to be more Wario Land representation, but you can strike a balance between that and Ware.

Whats your opinion on these Specials:
B: Shoulder Bash
Side B: Bike
Down B: Waft
and Up B: Bubble Wario?

We kept the two good smash moves and added two great Wario land reffrences!
Also if you press Down A in the air you get the ground pound and his throws are from Wario Land 2 and 3

 

[FazDude]

Whats your opinion on these Specials:
B: Shoulder Bash
Side B: Bike
Down B: Waft
and Up B: Bubble Wario?

We kept the two good smash moves and added two great Wario land reffrences!
Also if you press Down A in the air you get the ground pound and his throws are from Wario Land 2 and 3

Kinda mixed; Change Neutral B to a command/cargo grab and keep his current Up B.

 

[Quillion]

Giving Donkey Kong a barrel throw, and for the same reasons why Ganondorf having a projectile is a bad idea.

THAT SAID, I can get behind reworking side-B to be animated by DK smashing a barrel in front of him. Keeps the vital immobilization aspect, gives it more range, and adds the weaponized barrel in some fashion.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

• Wario reworks that are just Wario Land. Like, I agree, there needs to be more Wario Land representation, but you can strike a balance between that and Ware.

Except that Wario's moveset isn't a Ware moveset at all to begin with. The vast majority of it that isn't Land references as is are just made up goofy moves, which are just as much "Land" as they are "Ware". The bike and Wario-Man are the only Ware things in Wario's kit.

Not using this to say that Wario should be nothing but direct Land references, I don't want a strictly Land moveset either, but just because two of the most prominent moves are Ware references doesn't at all mean that is current kit is a Ware one (and I'm so tired of people treating it as one).

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The Waft I will give you since it's reflective of Wario's gross nature in general (especially in supplemental material in Japan), but Chomp is blatantly a Ware thing ripped right from Hot Dog Hog.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Mario reworks that don't seem to get it's normal for him to be a simplistic jack-of-all-trades in his home series, not just that he's meant to be basic even by 64/Melee moveset standards.

 

[FazDude]

Except that Wario's moveset isn't a Ware moveset at all to begin with. The vast majority of it that isn't Land references as is are just made up goofy moves, which are just as much "Land" as they are "Ware". The bike and Wario-Man are the only Ware things in Wario's kit.

Not using this to say that Wario should be nothing but direct Land references, I don't want a strictly Land moveset either, but just because two of the most prominent moves are Ware references doesn't at all mean that is current kit is a Ware one (and I'm so tired of people treating it as one).

This is entirely fair - I struggle to see many Ware references beyond the two you mentioned. I think for most people it's about Smash Wario having the tone of WarioWare as opposed to direct references (more grossout as opposed to the "macho" depiction of the Land games), which I was trying to play at with my initial post.

I overall still feel that current Wario is mainly orientated on Ware, but moreso in tone rather than ripping stuff directly from the games. I want to strike a balance between that and the "macho/adventurer" tone of Land, since the combination of grossness and badassery is what makes Wario appealing to me.

 

[Kirbeh]

I've seen plenty of reworks I don't like over the years but I can't really think of any that stick out in particular. A lot of the stuff being listed so far, I honestly don't have a problem with so much as it is trying to find a satisfactory implementation of the idea. Concept vs Execution.

On paper I'm okay with Dead Man's Volley for Ganon or Samus with an ice beam, but (well, I guess also on paper in this case) I just haven't seen someone work them in in a way that feels, idk cohesive?

It's ultimately all subjective of course but outside of a few exceptions I think most reworks I've read have offered at least one neat idea or two even if I don't necessarily want it to actually happen.

 

[Quillion]

I overall still feel that current Wario is mainly orientated on Ware, but moreso in tone rather than ripping stuff directly from the games. I want to strike a balance between that and the "macho/adventurer" tone of Land, since the combination of grossness and badassery is what makes Wario appealing to me.

I think Smash Wario focuses on a fairly minor aspect from Ware tbf, and I can see how some people can see it as the "wrong" aspect.

WarioWare is about all-around wackiness, with grossness just being a comparatively small fraction of it. And honestly, even Land is about all-around wackiness too: Pizza Tower is a direct translation of that, just on better hardware.

I've seen plenty of reworks I don't like over the years but I can't really think of any that stick out in particular. A lot of the stuff being listed so far, I honestly don't have a problem with so much as it is trying to find a satisfactory implementation of the idea. Concept vs Execution.

On paper I'm okay with Dead Man's Volley for Ganon or Samus with an ice beam, but (well, I guess also on paper in this case) I just haven't seen someone work them in in a way that feels, idk cohesive?

It's ultimately all subjective of course but outside of a few exceptions I think most reworks I've read have offered at least one neat idea or two even if I don't necessarily want it to actually happen.

That's actually a really good point. Some moveset change concepts are just implemented so poorly AND frequently that they make the concept itself look bad.

Come to think, that's one of the reasons why I'm more in favor of move changes that focus on changing the animation only rather than overhauling the whole move.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Mostly gonna look at this from a characters-as-characters perspective, since I think reworks - at least for legacy characters - are just a bad idea all around from a characters-are-functions perspective (with Sonic as an exception), unless they take the NASB2 route.

Small thing, but Wario reworks that remove waft and nothing else. Farting is funny. Smash, despite how it may market itself, is an inherently funny game. Let it rip I say. I get it for a "tough guy" WL moveset (even if I don't like the idea, Smash has a good few Blutos and no other Wimpies), but not if you're leaving everything else intact, and that's not even getting into the sym-biotic relationship between waft, bike, and chomp functionally.

I don't get Mansion-based Luigi movesets, maybe it's just because I've never played LM, but I don't really see Luigi as a ghostbuster first and foremost, that's second to being a platform sidekick and kart driver, and Luigi is really endearing in Smash as is for reasons that a Mansion moveset could outright contradict.

PAC-MAN WORLD. OH GOD. PAC-MAN WORLD. PMW is awesome, but Pac-Man's moveset in those games is so generic, even as a NASB1 moveset design defender, I cannot accept the idea of "Spin dash, ground pound, projectile throw" as a special moveset for the Pacster. Plus you'd be losing valuable Mappy representation.

A canon rework I hate: Solo Charizard. Congratulations, you kept the most boring, dull, fade-into-the-background one.

This actually gives me an idea for a thread...

 

[FazDude]

Small thing, but Wario reworks that remove waft and nothing else. Farting is funny. Smash, despite how it may market itself, is an inherently funny game. Let it rip I say. I get it for a "tough guy" WL moveset (even if I don't like the idea, Smash has a good few Blutos and no other Wimpies), but not if you're leaving everything else intact, and that's not even getting into the sym-biotic relationship between waft, bike, and chomp functionally.

Honestly, my problems with Waft nowadays stem mainly from its execution mechanically and not the idea of Wario farting inherently - It'd be a lot better if you had a limited charge to use it, almost like a "microgame" of sorts. Besides, if you want to cut Waft entirely, there's a lot you could do for farts. Luigi literally slams you with his ass for his jab; Why can't Wario?

Never though I'd have this much to say about the flatuence of a fictional fat treasure hunter/video game company CEO, but here we are.

 

[Quillion]

When it comes to moveset changes that IGNORE stuff, any Zelda change that ignores that the Light Bow is her signature weapon across three main series games and two spin-offs.
----
Honestly though, all "top-down" reworks are pretty bad though; that's part of the reason why I'm more in favor of singular, specific moveset changes and avoid the term "rework."

 

[FazDude]

Something that’s super common but I somehow forgot to mention yesterday - Kirby having a ton of copy abilities. So many people write Kirby off as a bunch of kicks with no inspiration behind them when a lot of them do actually have roots in copy abilities.

Plus, overly bloating Kirby’s moveset with copy abilities feels like an antithesis to the simple, beginner-friendly character he’s supposed to be. Most of the copy abilities I see people add are disjoints - That’s fine for teaching players how disjoints work, but when most of the new moves are disjoints, you start to stray away from Kirby’s all-arounder philosophy. (A lot of this also applies to Mario, but Kirby gets it worse from my experience.)

IMO, the best place to give Kirby non-punch/kick Copy Abilities are his smash attacks and specials. Anything else can get real messy real quick.

 

[Oracle Link]

Something that’s super common but I somehow forgot to mention yesterday - Kirby having a ton of copy abilities. So many people write Kirby off as a bunch of kicks with no inspiration behind them when a lot of them do actually have roots in copy abilities.

Plus, overly bloating Kirby’s moveset with copy abilities feels like an antithesis to the simple, beginner-friendly character he’s supposed to be. Most of the copy abilities I see people add are disjoints - That’s fine for teaching players how disjoints work, but when most of the new moves are disjoints, you start to stray away from Kirby’s all-arounder philosophy. (A lot of this also applies to Mario, but Kirby gets it worse from my experience.)

IMO, the best place to give Kirby non-punch/kick Copy Abilities are his smash attacks and specials. Anything else can get real messy real quick.

However Hammer should be a buffed Meele version with The Ability to charge
And give kirby somehow his sword Yes its a disjoint but its basically Kirbys Fireflower!
Potentially swap out up b for something more efective (heck maybe make Sword upper that move considering it would be a better final cutter)

But yesah kirbys kick and punches are heavily based on fighter!

 

[Quillion]

(A lot of this also applies to Mario, but Kirby gets it worse from my experience.)

Admittedly, I wouldn't mind Mario getting his F-Smash swapped for a hammer move, but the current F-Smash animation needs to be preserved somehow. I came up with this idea one time:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/1fp8svx

 

[FazDude]

Admittedly, I wouldn't mind Mario getting his F-Smash swapped for a hammer move, but the current F-Smash animation needs to be preserved somehow. I came up with this idea one time:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/1fp8svx

I’m not a big fan of a hammer F-Smash myself, but your idea does remind me of something Brawl Minus did with the Firebrand from Superstar Saga.

 

[Kirbeh]

Admittedly, I wouldn't mind Mario getting his F-Smash swapped for a hammer move, but the current F-Smash animation needs to be preserved somehow. I came up with this idea one time:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/1fp8svx

I've admittedly always been pretty mixed and more often than not against giving the Bros. hammers. Feels like a waste for them to be utilized for a single move but I also don't want to change half of their attacks to hammer strikes.

The other part of it is that I've always associated the hammers with the RPGs. I know they've appeared well before then but at the same time they don't really see much use in the mainline 2D and 3D platformer titles. The RPGs are where they really get to shine.

I do prefer Mario as he is for the most part (aside from a handful of moves like FLUDD and Down Air).

Divisive as it may be, the only way I'd be satisfied with introducing the hammers would be if you added alternate versions of the Bros. based on the Mario & Luigi games.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't really get why some people treat having a hammer as a "Mario Thing" when the only two series where he uses them with any frequency are

1. A sub-series mainstream demographics are apathetic to (RPGs)
2. A sub-series Nintendo diehards are wrongly apathetic to (Arcade DK)

Doesn't really effect its status as a Smash move (there's more than enough problems with it without that factor, and if Mario weren't made to be a shoto it'd be fine as a single move and maybe even be the best way to give Mario a unique but consistent gameplay hook), but still, strange thing I occasionally see pop up in Smash specualtion

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't get the "Diddy is too much like a monkey" criticism. I kinda get it with DK, even if I don't really agree, but Diddy has never really had unique abilities, except in DK64... and those abilities are already in Smash. I guess there's the spring tail, but functionally I imagine it'd be quite close to rocketbarrel (imagining NASB Rocko grounded up strong), and the DKR items, but they're in legal hell. I think a good one-sentence elevator pitch is really important to moveset design, and "gorilla fighting" or "chimpanzee fighting" is more that than "gorilla with grenades and barrels and he summons a giant ass rhino and he also shoots out of a cannon" or... whatever the alternative is for Diddy

 

[Quillion]

I don't really get why some people treat having a hammer as a "Mario Thing" when the only two series where he uses them with any frequency are

1. A sub-series mainstream demographics are apathetic to (RPGs)
2. A sub-series Nintendo diehards are wrongly apathetic to (Arcade DK)

Doesn't really effect its status as a Smash move (there's more than enough problems with it without that factor, and if Mario weren't made to be a shoto it'd be fine as a single move and maybe even be the best way to give Mario a unique but consistent gameplay hook), but still, strange thing I occasionally see pop up in Smash specualtion

Hey, if the "main series" should be the sole definer of what the "main idea" of a moveset is, Peach would be a Mario clone.

Also, don't you disdain the fandom's strict delineation of spin-off and main series anyway?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Hey, if the "main series" should be the sole definer of what the "main idea" of a moveset is, Peach would be a Mario clone.

Also, don't you disdain the fandom's strict delineation of spin-off and main series anyway?

I didn't even use the word "main series" or "side series" here, just "sub-series", a series within a series, doesn't really define any priority alone and you could use it for the platformers as well.

 

[FazDude]

I don't get the "Diddy is too much like a monkey" criticism. I kinda get it with DK, even if I don't really agree, but Diddy has never really had unique abilities, except in DK64... and those abilities are already in Smash. I guess there's the spring tail, but functionally I imagine it'd be quite close to rocketbarrel (imagining NASB Rocko grounded up strong), and the DKR items, but they're in legal hell. I think a good one-sentence elevator pitch is really important to moveset design, and "gorilla fighting" or "chimpanzee fighting" is more that than "gorilla with grenades and barrels and he summons a giant ass rhino and he also shoots out of a cannon" or... whatever the alternative is for Diddy

I actually like a lot of Diddy's normals in spite of their "monkey-ness" - I've always seen Diddy as an acrobatic character, and there's a few moves in there that fit that bill, like dash attack and up smash. I'd change a few moves (I think Diddy balancing on the opponent for Down Throw like he does for DK would be hilarious), but overall the main problem for me is his voice.

(also simian spring would be a cool down b like zero suit samus')