[#06] Jigglypuff MU Discussion Thread 2010

[Bahamut777]

Finally, someone has a bit of ****ing sense.

Also, may I ask who the Puff player was? I'm just curious is all.

It was Chaudgobay. He's like BR's Ninja Link. He plays well with the entire roster, so I can have a pretty good MU reference. Didn't recorded matches, tho'. Next time I play him, will ask to do some recordable matches. :]

 

[A2ZOMG]

And I also find Shield DI VERY useful on this MU.
You can Grab Puff's Punch if you Shield DI towards her. Really.
You can ALSO grab BAir not perfectly spaced.
ALSO, if you can keep yourself on ground or on low air and REMEMBER THAT AIRDODGES PREVENTS GIMPING, you CAN, and WILL, win this MU.

*sigh* how many Jiggs players forget to use D-air in edgeguards. And no you can't grab Pound unless it wasn't spaced high enough, you should be using SH U-air oos against that. And Jiggs users keep forgetting that their grab is simply better than yours and that Jiggs really doesn't need to do much of anything to put Ganon in a bad position. Honestly the number of mistakes Jiggs users make in this matchup appalls me.

BTW, Jiggz Rollout does NOT hit Ganon when he is on the edge, just hanging there. Even without invincibility frames. Tested today on multiple stages.
If Jiggz is charging Rollout, just waiting for you to come up, remember you're playing BRAWL, the GAYEST GAME IN THE HISTORY and just REMAIN THE **** WHERE YOU ARE!!! Rollout is USELESS in this MU. COMPLETELY USELESS!!
If Jiggz STILL launches one, GERUDO IT! And there you go. FREE KILL! THAT'S THE REASON WHY JIGGZ CAN'T RISK A ROLLOUT!!!

Firstoff, tell me when Ganon gets the lead. He doesn't get the lead in this matchup unless the Jiggs user just completely ****s up their zoning. And between getting gimped or having zero options on the ledge, there is nothing Ganon can do once he's sent offstage.

Ganon can't even retreat safely in this matchup. It's at least 7/3 out of his favor.

 

[Noobicidal]

It was Chaudgobay. He's like BR's Ninja Link. He plays well with the entire roster, so I can have a pretty good MU reference. Didn't recorded matches, tho'. Next time I play him, will ask to do some recordable matches. :]

Please do! I always love seeing different Puff playstyles.

 

[Chaudgobay]

Please do! I always love seeing different Puff playstyles.

I really think I'll disappoint you but I'll try.

 

[Z1GMA]

there is nothing Ganon can do once he's sent offstage.

You're funny, A2.

btw, just curious... What do you think about the Ganon Vs MK Match-up?
I mean the ratio.

 

[Ganonsburg]

you're funny, a2.

Btw, just curious... What do you think about the ganon vs mk match-up?
I mean the ratio.

a2: IT R 1000000:00, DERP. I R RITE N UR NOT. LISEN 2 ME GUYZ. I NO EVEN MOAR DAN DA PUFF N GANON MANES.

....

Yeah....

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon vs MK is 7/3 or worse, really not much different from the Jiggs matchup fundamentally. You're outzoned, you lack good CPs against this character, and you are gimped really easily. Then you have random stuff that might kill MK early and force him to have a brain about his spacing, which unfortunately are impractically hard to land if he's patient.

From playing other Jiggs players, I really think that most of them are just TERRIBLE at zoning and picking good conservative options, and most of them don't know how legitimate baiting works. Crouching and grab are both underused in the matchup as well, and it's pretty dumb if you're a Jiggs user and not edgeguarding Ganon with D-air.

Jiggs vs Ganon is clearly worse than Wario vs Ganon. Wario actually has trouble approaching and edgeguarding Ganon due to his inferior horizontal hitboxes and due to his lack of any real gimp tools (reverse U-air is a legitimate wall against Wario's approaches in the mu). And the threat of grab release F-smash gives you a more realistic way of finishing off Wario quickly, and Wario's low recovery is also easy for Ganon to edgeguard.

 

[Dumbfire]

Yeah.. But were talking about normal JIgglypuffs that actually know what theyre doing not some random people that dont know how to space, zone and bait..

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah. Funny. I was really hoping people understood that a Jiggs player that knows how to space, zone, and bait is nearly impossible for Ganon to wall, and thanks to her combo and gimp game is able to kill Ganon a lot faster and more easily than most characters can (not to mention that Ganon really can't get up from the ledge). But then again, most Jiggs players just play this matchup wrong, and overlook other tactics that also screw over Ganon.

 

[Noobicidal]

But then again, most Jiggs players just play this matchup wrong, and overlook other tactics that also screw over Ganon.

Alright, so it's not so much that you're wrong, it's just that the entire Jigglypuff community is wrong.

It all makes perfect sense!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Judging from how you approach the matchup against me, I think it's fair for me to assume that. Granted it was Balanced Brawl where Ganon obviously has more tricks, but I have reason to believe that you don't understand how to properly counter Ganon. I don't intend to lose to Jigglypuff players that play the matchup wrong and let me anti-air them with Ganon's ground game. I expect them to destroy me, probably at minimum 2stock me if they actually learn how to play this game.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

The only thing I don't quite get is the dair edgeguard. How does work against Ganon so well?

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-air beats Ganon's Up-B and semispikes him. And it lingers pretty long, so the margin of error for applying it successfully is huge.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

D-air beats Ganon's Up-B and semispikes him. And it lingers pretty long, so the margin of error for applying it successfully is huge.

Umm, did you mean the margin for error is small?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty sure I stated that correctly. It's pretty hard to make a mistake by just randomly throwing out Jiggs's D-air to edgeguard Ganondorf.

 

[Noobicidal]

Judging from how you approach the matchup against me, I think it's fair for me to assume that. Granted it was Balanced Brawl where Ganon obviously has more tricks, but I have reason to believe that you don't understand how to properly counter Ganon. I don't intend to lose to Jigglypuff players that play the matchup wrong and let me anti-air them with Ganon's ground game. I expect them to destroy me, probably at minimum 2stock me if they actually learn how to play this game.

Granted it was Balanced Brawl where Ganon obviously has more tricks, but I have reason to believe that you don't understand how to properly counter Ganon.

Granted it was Balanced Brawl

Alright kids, gather around while I explain a few of the differences between vBrawl and BBrawl regarding Ganon. Ganon has SUPER ARMOR when using Ftilt. He is INVINCIBLE when he uses Wizkick. His Dtilt TRIPS the opponent.

To have the audacity to even THINK about using BBrawl as a comparative standard in the REGULAR BRAWL METAGAME is idiotic. I was playing BBrawl that night simply because someone else mentioned they have the new codeset, and I had yet to try out the recent changes. By all means, congratulations! You beat a player that had little to no idea about how to react to Ganon's new shenanigans in a game that they hardly ever play since TP went to college last year.

In regards to Dair, here's the frame data as it is written in our thread.

Hits on Frame: 5-6,8-9,11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-24, 26-27
Duration (All 8 hit): 73
Hitlag: 4
Landing Lag: 30
Blockstun: 0
Blockhitlag: 4
Base Damage: 2% Per Hit (Max 8 hits)
Knockback:
Angle: 90 Degrees
Base: 2084.1 (At 147 Damage)*
Growth Rate/ variance: 7.45

*Dair has literally no knockback, absolutely none at all until 147 damage (tested thoroughly). However, starting at 147 damage, it gets a knockback of 2099 and increases at a rate of 7.45.

Alright, so at 147%, you can "Semi spike" Ganon at a 90 degree angle. PROTIP KIDS: YOU CAN GIMP GANON AT 147% AS JIGGLYPUFF.

I'm sick and tired of arguing with you and dealing with your unverified bull****. It's 35:65, Jigglypuff's favour.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, honestly the fact you were even in range to be F-tilted is part of why I didn't think much of your Jiggs. Jiggs has no business getting F-tilted in either game. Nor wizkicked. That part of the matchup is the same in both games. A lot of those instances could still have been trades had you played me in vBrawl. Ganon's wizkick and F-tilt, vBrawl or BBrawl, are not viable moves in this matchup. Nor is his D-tilt, since he's not landing Flame Choke in this matchup either. And his D-tilt actually is slightly more punishable should he be trying to poke with it in BBrawl since it has extra ending lag to prevent infinites. I expected better vertical spacing from you. It should be standard for Jiggs at this point, BUT YOU PLAYED THE MATCHUP WRONG EVEN FROM A VBRAWL PERSPECTIVE. It's not like "oh Jiggs actually has to respect Ganon's F-tilt and Wizkick which are VERY EASY TO LAND ON HER". No. You should not be in range of those moves in the first place. And you can duck under both as I recall.

lol don't give me nonsense. You don't understand your options at all. You D-air Ganon, take away ALL OF HIS HORIZONTAL MOMENTUM AND FORCE HIM TO GO LOWER. That's as good as semispiking him to a guaranteed death at low percents. In fact basically all of your lingering aerials besides U-air do just fine at gimping Ganon. D-air however beats his Up-B and pretty much stops his recovery cold the most consistently for gimps. I've been gimped by that move enough times.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

you can definitely gimp ganon at certain point below the stage with dair, you just have to follow him immediately after the action that gets him that low

 

[A2ZOMG]

At any rate, I don't think I have to explain that Jiggs does a very good job of forcing Ganon to recover low, since he can't really stop her offstage assault with his aerials or by jumping, which essentially forces him to airdodge.

In case you were wondering, I believe 65/35 is the ratio for Jiggs v Ganon in BBrawl. It's much worse than that in this game.

Something else occurred to me. I don't think Ganon actually has very many good options for punishing Jiggs for airdoding to the ground, since her landing animation also reduces her hurtbox size (much like her crouch). I probably should test it, but I believe there is a strong possibility Jiggs can literally powershield Ganon's wizkick after airdodging to the ground.

 

[Noobicidal]

blah blah BBrawl

You kept using Ftilt as a horizontal anti-air move due to the SA it receives. Ftilt's range isn't exactly crappy. It took me several games to adjust to the fact that "lol sh bair" doesn't seem to work. No Ganon in vBrawl uses Ftilt like that, so I had no precedent to work with. I have no problems dealing with Wizkick in vBrawl due to it not clanking with Bair, but when you're dealing with a move that grants the user INVINCIBILITY frames that covers half the length of SV, it's a bit hard to deal with.

Once again, BBrawl isn't vBrawl, so quit mentioning it.

lol don't give me nonsense. You don't understand your options at all. You D-air Ganon, take away ALL OF HIS HORIZONTAL MOMENTUM AND FORCE HIM TO GO LOWER. That's as good as semispiking him to a guaranteed death at low percents.

But that isn't semi-spiking, and the empirical data that I presented before you proves that. I'd much rather just get grabbed by Up-B and just Fair Ganon out of it, or land a soft Nair into Fair, or any of the other options that Puff has against Ganon off-stage. Dair isn't her best option.

I've been gimped by that move enough times.

You just suck at recovering as Ganon.

:3

 

[A2ZOMG]

You kept using Ftilt as a horizontal anti-air move due to the SA it receives. Ftilt's range isn't exactly crappy. It took me several games to adjust to the fact that "lol sh bair" doesn't seem to work. No Ganon in vBrawl uses Ftilt like that, so I had no precedent to work with. I have no problems dealing with Wizkick in vBrawl due to it not clanking with Bair, but when you're dealing with a move that grants the user INVINCIBILITY frames that covers half the length of SV, it's a bit hard to deal with.

Once again, BBrawl isn't vBrawl, so quit mentioning it.

Hitbox sizes are exactly the same. Move safety is pretty much identical in terms of frames. And I do actually anti-air with F-tilt in vBrawl, with a bit less overall success. My playstyle isn't any different in vBrawl as opposed to BBrawl, and yours shouldn't be either. Jiggs however should be playing a better vertical spacing game in the matchup. Ganon pretty much wants you to mindlessly SH -> do stuff since that keeps you in range of his other ground moves. That's why you DON'T DO THAT in either game. And the wizkick is still retardedly unsafe on block or whiff. I can forgive you missing a few whiff punishes for Wizkick, but I cannot forgive your difficulty with F-tilt.

But that isn't semi-spiking, and the empirical data that I presented before you proves that. I'd much rather just get grabbed by Up-B and just Fair Ganon out of it, or land a soft Nair into Fair, or any of the other options that Puff has against Ganon off-stage. Dair isn't her best option.

I dunno, D-air has more range, lingers super long, and still stops Ganon from recovering. I like to pick easy options. But honestly it doesn't matter. Ganon has little to no business recovering against Jiggs.

You just suck at recovering as Ganon.

:3

I personally believe that I'm one of the better Ganon users at successfully recovering. A lot of Jiggs players just seem to fail to gimp me until they actually edgeguard correctly.

 

[Noobicidal]

Hitbox sizes are exactly the same. Move safety is pretty much identical in terms of frames. And I do actually anti-air with F-tilt in vBrawl, with a bit less overall success. My playstyle isn't any different in vBrawl as opposed to BBrawl, and yours shouldn't be either. Jiggs however should be playing a better vertical spacing game in the matchup. Ganon pretty much wants you to mindlessly SH -> do stuff since that keeps you in range of his other ground moves. That's why you DON'T DO THAT in either game. And the wizkick is still retardedly unsafe on block or whiff. I can forgive you missing a few whiff punishes for Wizkick, but I cannot forgive your difficulty with F-tilt.

Once again, BBrawl isn't vBrawl, so quit mentioning it.

I dunno, D-air has more range, lingers super long, and still stops Ganon from recovering. I like to pick easy options. But honestly it doesn't matter. Ganon has little to no business recovering against Jiggs.

Nair has greater range, "lingers" a frame longer, and has less cool-down than Dair.

Neutral Air
Hits on Frame (Sweetspot): 6-8
Hits on Frame (Sourspot): 9-29

Down Air
Hits on Frame: 5-6,8-9,11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-24, 26-27

I personally believe that I'm one of the better Ganon users at successfully recovering. A lot of Jiggs players just seem to fail to gimp me until they actually edgeguard correctly.

I personally think my steaks marinated with soy sauce, Worcestershire sauce, and Italian dressing are better than steaks at five star restaurants. A lot of restaurants serve improper portions and fail to cook the steaks correctly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Counting the strong hit, yes N-air does last longer, although weak hits work better at gimping Ganon, and D-air has a longer series of weak hits that combo into each other and thus can also drag Ganon to a less favorable position. D-air starts faster, and has better vertical range (which I believe is in many ways more important than horizontal range for edgeguards). I personally think it's much easier to edgeguard Ganon with D-air since there is a chance that the range on D-air is more likely to interfere with him if he saves the option of double jump U-air.

And regardless, I am very confident you do not play the matchup as well as you think you do.

 

[Bahamut777]

Just to say that if you have brains, while recovering low and your opponent is going for the (semi-)spike, you'll try to aim the grab hitbox towards the opponent's hurtbox. It will trade with one hit of that attack, outtake it, grab electrify his butt and then you get your *** back on the stage if not punished with a before-frame-6 move.

Just pointing out.

 

[Z1GMA]

I personally believe that I'm one of the better Ganon users at successfully recovering.

After letting us know you get Rollout-***** 100 times out of 100 when you're trying to get back on the stage, I am very sceptical towards your Recovering-skills.

Jiggs has no business getting F-tilted in either game.

Please don't compare vBrawl & BBrawl.
Even though it's true that Jiggly has no business getting F-tilted in either game, both opponents' mindsets around Ftilt are completely different in BBrawl > vBrawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah, Jiggs users practically never get me with Rollout edgeguards even on FD. They just happen to suck at the matchup and don't know how to option limit. I think a lot of people don't know how proper edgetrapping works frankly. Most importantly it's clear to me that Ganon does not have the tools to avoid an intelligently applied Rollout after RCO lag is factored. Just be glad there's not many people at the moment smart enough to realize it or to edgetrap in other extremely easy ways that result in Ganon getting KOed.

Just to say that if you have brains, while recovering low and your opponent is going for the (semi-)spike, you'll try to aim the grab hitbox towards the opponent's hurtbox. It will trade with one hit of that attack, outtake it, grab electrify his butt and then you get your *** back on the stage if not punished with a before-frame-6 move.

Yeah, I get away with that a lot honestly, and it depresses me.

 

[Bahamut777]

Jiggly matches. We don't have a very good Jiggly mainer around here, but here are some challengers.

Vs Claus. (Dedede Mainer. First Jiggly attempt ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvThQAGa_U4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiMDqGSJdiE

vs Chaud (Wolf mainer. Second "serious" Jiggly attempt)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGuDEr55gMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKshtiZD2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF0AcahxdCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzaNrn6sYvs

 

[Kofu]

Nair has greater range, "lingers" a frame longer, and has less cool-down than Dair.

I was going to post something like this but you covered it.

NAir kind of ***** linear recoveries.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Reading through this thread, I have only one thing to say.

I personally believe that I'm one of the better Ganon users at successfully recovering.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Those videos are pretty horrible representation of the matchup. On both sides. Both Ganon and Jiggs in those matches did not pick very good options generally speaking.

Jiggs users generally had HORRIBLE spacing. Got hit in several situations that were very unnecessary and didn't know how to edgetrap at all.

And your Ganon needs to learn buffered SH U-air out of shield. It's pretty much the only thing Ganon is actually allowed to do in the matchup. When you consider how many spacing mistakes the Jiggs users made, it's equally appalling that you didn't use this option to punish.

Virtually nobody plays this matchup right, and furthermore understands how truly awful it is for Ganon.

 

[Bahamut777]

Those videos are pretty horrible representation of the matchup. On both sides. Both Ganon and Jiggs in those matches did not pick very good options generally speaking.

Jiggs users generally had HORRIBLE spacing. Got hit in several situations that were very unnecessary and didn't know how to edgetrap at all.

And your Ganon needs to learn buffered SH U-air out of shield. It's pretty much the only thing Ganon is actually allowed to do in the matchup. When you consider how many spacing mistakes the Jiggs users made, it's equally appalling that you didn't use this option to punish.

Virtually nobody plays this matchup right, and furthermore understands how truly awful it is for Ganon.

SHUAirOoS? Against Jiggz? Who isn't even hit by normal SHUAir?

Yeah right.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You use it to anti-air and option limit aerial crossovers, two areas where Jiggs normally gets away scott free a lot in this matchup (since hardly anyone plays it right anyway). It's one of the few GOOD tactics Ganon actually has in this matchup yet nobody I know besides myself actually understands how it works. I could name like dozens of instances where you could have punished poor aerial spacing on Jiggs' part with a buffered SH U-air out of shield, yet it never happened.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, UAir OoS is a great anti-air option. I don't tend to use it in friendlies, I'm conditioning my friends to think aerial approaches against me are safe.

 

[Wilmenz]

You can up taunt to dodge Jiggz rollout

 

[Heartstring]

I'm probably going to get infracted, But i'm posting to keep this thread in the forefront, because A2 is really stupid

 

[Mizter Ultimaman]

IF you get Rested, try to time a Warlock Punch on the way down. If you die, it doesn't matter what you do. If you live, you Warlock Punch her.