Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

Frame 12 Dair with 30 frames of landing lag and 30 frames regular lag anyway, an UpB that if read in advance leads to even harder punishment, a frame 15 command grab that lasts for 2 frames, and a B-reverse that doesn't lose to shield only situationally/if you found the time to charge it, I'd say Robin's pretty low on the landing options scale too.

Or rather, if any single one of his options gets called out, he'll get punished harder than anyone else.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I find it hard to believe that Bowser Jr has bottom 5 landing options, considering that he can strafe through the air with side-b, has an item to throw downwards, an at least passable nair to cover himself when fast falling, and his up-b which drops an explosive. It's obviously a weakness for him, but bottom 5 is a stretch imo.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Does Robin have any airstalls? It's a character I hardly ever see in action and I honestly forgot.

I find it hard to believe that Bowser Jr has bottom 5 landing options, considering that he can strafe through the air with side-b, has an item to throw downwards, an at least passable nair to cover himself when fast falling, and his up-b which drops an explosive. It's obviously a weakness for him, but bottom 5 is a stretch imo.

His aerial mobility still isn't that great though so the Koopa Kart jump cancel (which you can only use once) isn't exactly super elusive plus he falls when you use it and the ending lag for the spinout in the air is especially bad. The mecha koopa drops at an angle so they have to be practically underneath you and to the side for it to hit plus a read air dodge allows them to grab it. It's also not good because, if you miss, Bowser Jr falls straight down and the ending animation for the mecha koopa is fairly lengthy so there's a decent chance that you'll still be in the animation by the time you hit the ground. If they're coming after you in the air, it's not exactly the best option and, if they stay on the ground, they can easily grab it. That said, it works much better in the state of advantage than neutral or disadvantage. This also points out that, when fighting Bowser Jr., unless your character has a lot of quick aerial combos like Mario or Metaknight, it's better to just stay on the ground and wait for Bowser Jr. to land.

As for having a mecha koopa in hand while recovering, that's very situational and even then it's a high pressure situation because, unless it was re-caught (again, situational), it will explode if you don't throw or drop it fast enough. Nair is okay overall but it has a lot of the same problems as Dedede's, if they shield it, it's very easy to punish. Finally, abandon ship doesn't do as much shield damage as it should so it's very easy to shield and it's bad news bears if they perfect shield it because now you're a goofy tumbling koopa kid who can be stunned into free fall if they use the right attack (ie; one of the more BS things about the Villager matchup). Again, it's a move that's a lot better in the advantage than the disadvantage state. Bowser Jr is kind of designed from the ground up to try to run with the advantage or set up elaborate traps that put him there.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been playing Dedede a lot the last month or so, sometimes I pull him out at tournaments because he can beat players inexperienced in the MU pretty reliably. But I think he's bad and I don't understand why Japan has him ranked so high.

He loses to so many playstyles it's unreal, zoning in particular, even by characters that aren't great zoners, just totally craps on him, sword fighters generally beat him, and the rush down as well. He has a terrible matchup spread and he does not secretly beat any top/high tiers at all.

Huge hurtbox plus almost non existent air speed plus slow on the ground is a terrible combination, but for whatever reason his combination of weight, fall speed, and gravity is absolutely perfect for making him get put into tech chases all the dang time, even by random moves that don't put hardly anyone else in the cast into a tech chase situation. He may very well be the worst at CQC in the game, not only is his jab frame 10 but it doesn't link properly on many characters. His dtilt might keep it from the worst in the game, but regardless, it's terrible.

He has a big grab with big reward. Gordo is pretty good, especially for ledge traps, his neutral is moderately good with his aerials, ftilt, I guess his command grab lol, and his grab, but it's easily sub par and ruined by any amount of zoning from the opponent. And his stinking frame 6 jumpsquat and 6 frame hard landing lag, he can't wall as effectively with aerials as he could otherwise.

And he can't kill very well. I can't wrap my head around why Dedede was designed with so much trouble killing, what exactly were the developers going for? It's not unusual to have to wait until 160-180 to get kills with Dedede, unless you land a stray uair, or dsmash with a good read, or bair with a really good read/mistake by the opponent.

I've played Samus vs Dedede from both perspectives and it is atrocious for him. Samus' ability to force tech chases and Dedede's inability to avoid them leads to CS over and over, any hit confirm leading to 40+ damage easily with his size, zoning with zair made exponentially easier by his size, Samus' frame data wrecking him especially CQC, Dedede's trouble killing Samus but Samus getting kills much more easily off CS tech chases, there is just so much wrong with this MU. It's a random 30:70 MU Dedede really shouldn't have.

He has strengths, yeah... He has a really good grab game (wish it could kill), strong disjoints, his recovery is great, 5 jumps... But his weaknesses are huge.

As for the whole, "Buffing him is dangerous thing," no it isn't at all. I think it would be ridiculously challenging to make Dedede an actual dangerous or overpowered character lol. People used to always tell Samus mains that she didn't need buffs that were too big because it was a, "slippery slope," whatever. Samus got huge buffs and she isn't exactly dominating the meta. Bowser and DK got kill confirms, they don't dominate, Dedede absolutely deserves big buffs and I really want to see them.

Does Japan even have him ranked high anymore?
Great post. I agreed with everything you said. It's absolutely appalling how him and have gotten nothing positive from patches in this game's lifetime. Dedede's one of my favorite characters in the series and it really saddens me to see that he'll fall behind in the meta as it progresses.

That said, even I'm somewhat pessimistic over what characters Dedede has a solid advantage over besides other superheavies (and even then DK isn't a pleasant MU in the slightest). Every character is capable of finding the rather gaping holes in his gameplan and exploiting them. Even characters like Zelda have ways to just lame it out against Dedede.

 

[Shaya]

he played insanely campy. He won game 2 by timeout (2 stocks left | of 3) and Game 3 would've been a timeout as well but he didn't secure the lead and had to approach and that didn't end well for him.

so I think it's even if you play that ugly..

To be fair Yikarur, your/Yoshi's play style of a lot doing full hop retreating aerials and then moving away continuously was ensuring no consistent engagements ever occurred. Gregs was not comfortable attempting to call out your jumps except at the crucial moments for a stock and then you mostly maintained playing the exact same way WITH DEFICIT - of course it was conducive to see a time out occur. And I know you can do more than that too, so maybe it's an FD thing, but w/e.

Your set(s) at Beast for me originally was very eye opening for the issues Yoshi has. If the opponent / Sheik were more capable of calling your full hops I doubt it would've gone as well for you. If Sheik doesn't have the tools for that I can respect a near-even match up although at least on a stage with no platforms, but that play style begs the opponent to time you out because why engage someone who isn't engaging you either?
The fair range nerf was probably quite detrimental to Sheik being able to keep close and apply pressure without fear of being naired out of things though - When are sheik's going to start using back air more? :O more range [at least now, I think@_@], faster start up, as safe on fast fall as forward air is, a fantastic disjoint underneath her leg [kinda like Brawl Falco Bair]

Although months earlier, we saw that play style giving your opponent time to learn how to punish it when little mix ups are involved, your loss against Ixis which was slowly dragged out gave him the time to adapt to the non-committal ac dair/retreating nair/double fair jumps and him picking up on your panic air dodge when dashing inside you as you come in to land without rising dair; resulting in a pretty one sided final match.

If a strategy is relying on non-interactivity through discomfort in punishing, and the easier answer to that is to not just run/jump into it, people are going to do that.
It's significantly smarter than letting yourself get frustrated by at least attempting to have the opponent adapt their game instead.
You could play differently and things wouldn't be so "campy", but can Yoshi do as well under those circumstances? Not that we get to see often.
It shouldn't be that surprising to see long-drawn out games with Yoshi.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Technically Nosferatu airstalls, but it's got significant endlag and the stall is so minimal that anyone can just hop up and bop him.

It's better to just Elwind and find another landing spot. While niche, I do enjoy that Robin has the Elwind option; only those with burst movement can get back to Robin before he lands if they get hit by the first Elwind cutter, and if they get hit by the second one, they're better off resetting to neutral. It's a frame 8 projectile that goes straight down, it's bound to be used every now and then.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Yikarur vs Gregs on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQQHiwzZG_E

 

[Nobie]

This week's Nebulous finals is Marth (Mr. E) vs. Duck Hunt (@DunnoBro).

Talk about something we probably would have never seen five months ago.

http://www.hitbox.tv/nebulousgaming

 

[BunbUn129]

This week's Nebulous finals is Marth (Mr. E) vs. Duck Hunt (@DunnoBro).

Talk about something we probably would have never seen five months ago.

http://www.hitbox.tv/nebulousgaming

And that's all because they "decreased the power level."

I wish they kept Sheik's 50/50 so the game could be more interesting....

On a further note, it's worth mentioning that it took a while before people started exploiting MK's uair combos, so the process he went through was sort of the reverse of what you'd expect.

 

[Peppermint1201]

How exactly does:

A) Allowing Sheiks to pursue more unique options and the whole of their character's tools

and

B) Removing many high- and upper-mid-tier characters' primary roadblock

make the game less interesting?

also,
ESAM's Pikachu matchup chart:

honestly very shocked by this, he only cites three characters as losing matchups and only cites 4 as 50:50, with the rest being 55:45 or better. thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

I think it's more interesting to see Sheik play their game around their numerous other kill confirms/set ups rather than needing to crutch on shielding and grabbing until it works.

Considering how much of those abilities still exist (don't you enjoy seeing needles to BF? I love it), it's basically superfluous on a power level point (being able to achieve the same things, just with more difficulty). The fair range nerf was more incidental in reducing power level then down throw up air.

 

[Amadeus9]

How exactly does:

A) Allowing Sheiks to pursue more unique options and the whole of their character's tools

and

B) Removing many high- and upper-mid-tier characters' primary roadblock

make the game less interesting?

also,
ESAM's Pikachu matchup chart:

honestly very shocked by this, he only cites three characters as losing matchups and only cites 4 as 50:50, with the rest being 55:45 or better. thoughts?

I think esam is a dingaling. That mu chart cant even slightly be justified.

 

[Y2Kay]

How in the world does ESAM come to the conclusion that Pikachu wins the Lucario (and Mewtwo) match up? That's just ridiculous. All of the evidence says that it's evenly matched up at worst.

@GunbladeSWR A lot of M2 things don't work cuz of size, can still do generic Pika things.

— ESAM (@imESAM) April 11, 2016

I disagree with his reasoning too. It doesn't make much sense.

 

[Ninety]

Frame 12 Dair with 30 frames of landing lag and 30 frames regular lag anyway, an UpB that if read in advance leads to even harder punishment, a frame 15 command grab that lasts for 2 frames, and a B-reverse that doesn't lose to shield only situationally/if you found the time to charge it, I'd say Robin's pretty low on the landing options scale too.

Or rather, if any single one of his options gets called out, he'll get punished harder than anyone else.

Do you know the proper spacing for Robin's frame 48 dair autocancel? Can never hit it right. Man, what I wouldn't give for Cloud's dair.

How exactly does:

A) Allowing Sheiks to pursue more unique options and the whole of their character's tools

and

B) Removing many high- and upper-mid-tier characters' primary roadblock

make the game less interesting?

also,
ESAM's Pikachu matchup chart:

honestly very shocked by this, he only cites three characters as losing matchups and only cites 4 as 50:50, with the rest being 55:45 or better. thoughts?

Kinda surprised ESAM still rates PIkachu so highly. I mean, he's always overrated him, but with ESAM's gradual drop off in results, you'd think he would start to rethink things.

 

[DblCrest]

honestly very shocked by this, he only cites three characters as losing matchups and only cites 4 as 50:50, with the rest being 55:45 or better. thoughts?

...w-was that intentional? XD

Pretty optimistic, I feel most of the 55-40 should probably be even or lower. But that's just me.

 

[Fatmanonice]

>Supposedly has the advantage against all but three of the high tiers.
>Never won a major tournament.

Makes sense...

To be fair, we all do this to some degree with our favorite characters. Megaman/Wii Fit could literally be push any button, a painful electric shock is sent through your controller, $300 is withdrawn from your bank account and transferred to Sakurai, and they'd explode into a ball of flames and collapse into a pile of ash on screen, and I'd still probably argue that they weren't the worst character in the game.

 

[Shaya]

How in the world does ESAM come to the conclusion that Pikachu wins the Lucario (and Mewtwo) match up? That's just ridiculous. All of the evidence says that it's evenly matched up at worst.

@GunbladeSWR A lot of M2 things don't work cuz of size, can still do generic Pika things.

— ESAM (@imESAM) April 11, 2016

I disagree with his reasoning too. It doesn't make much sense.

"Pikachu is small and X doesn't like small things, and Pikachu's weaknesses don't ever matter"
+1 Pikachu

On repeat for 45 characters.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Hasn't ESAM always been a "theory" guy though? I'm assuming ESAM's matchup chart is based on his view of optimal Pikachu, aka a level no one including ESAM has reached yet.

 

[Y2Kay]

"Pikachu is small and X doesn't like small things, and Pikachu's weaknesses don't ever matter"
+1 Pikachu

On repeat for 45 characters.

I asked him on twitter and he says that M2 isn't that hard to edgeguard, Pika's nuetral is vastly better, and Pikachu's kill confirms work really early.

Should I break the news to him or you?

 

[Shaya]

There's no beating ESAM in a match up discussion.
I would know.
https://youtu.be/MJLmgnFpJg8?t=15s

I'd rather people not acknowledge them then pretend it's worth discussing them beyond 'feels'.
Ironically/hypocritically, his match up spread he just posted for Corrin is basically what I think because Corrin is busted. But only on a purely theoretically level.

 

[thehard]

If you weren't watching Kawaii Kon's twin attack of VoiD vs. MikeKirby and then VoiD vs. Larry, you missed out.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Hasn't ESAM always been a "theory" guy though? I'm assuming ESAM's matchup chart is based on his view of optimal Pikachu, aka a level no one including ESAM has reached yet.

Optimization theory is kind of useless if it doesn't really ever go anywhere. Fox, Metaknight, and Mario have gotten better while Ryu, Villager, and Pikachu have gotten worse. It's like in the Brawl days when people swore up and down that Fox, Peach, and Lucario were miserably underrated and that all they needed was some star player to crush a major tournament or two to prove it. Obviously, this day never came and it's getting more and more doubtful that it ever will happen for Pikachu in this game. Mario has been able to make his weaknesses largely irrelevant, Pikachu hasn't. There's strong evidence that there are roadblocks in the character itself that keep it from doing better and not a lack of skill from their players.

 

[Y2Kay]

There's no beating ESAM in a match up discussion.
I would know.
https://youtu.be/MJLmgnFpJg8?t=15s

wait . . . . that actually happened?

I can't even. Hey I tried to defend Mewtwo though., hehe.

 

[my_T]

Hasn't ESAM always been a "theory" guy though? I'm assuming ESAM's matchup chart is based on his view of optimal Pikachu, aka a level no one including ESAM has reached yet.

pretty much all theory it looks like.

And i strongly agree with the part in bold. Most of the smash community are result junkies so these responses aren't surprising.

People need to that the player and the character are two separate things.

 

[HeavyLobster]

To be fair, we all do this to some degree with our favorite characters. Megaman/Wii Fit could literally be push any button, a painful electric shock is sent through your controller, $300 is withdrawn from your bank account and transferred to Sakurai, and they'd explode into a ball of flames and collapse into a pile of ash on screen, and I'd still probably argue that they weren't the worst character in the game.

To be fair, they'd still beat Brawl Dorf 55-45.

 

[Shaya]

wait . . . . that actually happened?

I can't even. Hey I tried to defend Mewtwo though., hehe.

Yeah, Hitler was pretty pissed off after finding out.
Almost as much as I was.

Basically the story was, this was the second match up chart project.
Previous MU chart it was set as +1 Marth, ESAM and I debated more than possibly anyone on this website had ever done bar maybe some MK-ban shenanigan things, it lasted weeks. We never agreed, but it got settled for +1.

When the second one came along, the pragmatist in me said "is there anything different or new to be said here? Something which would sway opinions or whatever? Otherwise, the old discussion was pretty GRAND", ESAM agreed that there wasn't much new to discuss.
The final panel opted for putting it to even as it was Pikachu/ESAM which "worked harder" to argue their point (by virtue of being the one to state a summary of the previous discussion rather than me just linking to the summary of the previous discussion).
Most bull **** thing to ever happen, ever. I cried that "so you're saying if I just copy and pasted my old post like ESAM did, it would've stayed +1?" "Probably"
He even agreed that it wasn't fair but HE TOOK THE WIN ANYWAY.

--

TO BE FAIR
ESAM is relying a lot on 'theory', but of a different type, it's pretty dynamic and his opinions can change quickly.
He has a high opinion of Pikachu and that extends from how well he does, he is not going to 'comprehend' the other character unless he has seen it distinctively be something else. Like, I think early mu charts was Pika advantage on Mario, to even, to slight disadvantage to solid disadvantage. It only took like 8 losses to Ally in a row and various other Marios for it to happen!

Late on in Brawl's life ESAM started losing/struggling against the Marths (Ramin / Leon) and ceded that the match up was likely a slight disadvantage (he started opting to play ICs instead), but less so than the other ones [Wario, Diddy, Peach? iirc] so it should still be set as 0/even.
Small victories... small victories.

 

[C0rvus]

ESAM seems to literally base his matchup numbers on what his results are. He thinks that he IS Pikachu. "I lose to Peach a lot? Oh but Peach isn't considered that good. Must be even. PIKA DA BES!" His Corrin chart is infuriating to look at based on this line of thinking. He has clearly shown a lack of exp and knowledge with the character, especially with his showing against Ally at Pound. But he couldn't be humble enough to not make a MU chart for the character. Idk man, ESAM's been rubbing me the wrong way lately.

 

[Kofu]

There's no beating ESAM in a match up discussion.
I would know.
https://youtu.be/MJLmgnFpJg8?t=15s

I'd rather people not acknowledge them then pretend it's worth discussing them beyond 'feels'.
Ironically/hypocritically, his match up spread he just posted for Corrin is basically what I think because Corrin is busted. But only on a purely theoretically level.

I recognize and understand most of the names in that video, lol.

I had an idea earlier today. What if there was a heavyweight who played something like Sheik or Pikachu, dealing death by a thousand cuts rather than several bludgeoning blows. Then I realized that that kind of describes Bowser Jr. who didn't end up so well.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Optimization theory is kind of useless if it doesn't really ever go anywhere. Fox, Metaknight, and Mario have gotten better while Ryu, Villager, and Pikachu have gotten worse. It's like in the Brawl days when people swore up and down that Fox, Peach, and Lucario were miserably underrated and that all they needed was some star player to crush a major tournament or two to prove it. Obviously, this day never came and it's getting more and more doubtful that it ever will happen for Pikachu in this game. Mario has been able to make his weaknesses largely irrelevant, Pikachu hasn't. There's strong evidence that there are roadblocks in the character itself that keep it from doing better and not a lack of skill from their players.

Wouldnt Ryu actually turn completely unbeatable?

 

[FullMoon]

There's no beating ESAM in a match up discussion.
I would know.
https://youtu.be/MJLmgnFpJg8?t=15s

I'd rather people not acknowledge them then pretend it's worth discussing them beyond 'feels'.
Ironically/hypocritically, his match up spread he just posted for Corrin is basically what I think because Corrin is busted. But only on a purely theoretically level.

Thank you for linking that video because I remember seeing it the first time but I had lost the link, it's so great.

 

[KakuCP9]

To be honest, I'm so used to ESAM overestimating Pika that I stopped caring about his MU charts. I'm more worried about people such as his twitter followers who will take it seriously.

 

[sedrf]

"esam amking a mu for a secondary he rarely plays"
also shaya apparently has some bad blood with esam.
Brawl was a weird time.

 

[Trifroze]

The idea of rating characters from a more ambitious optimal play perspective (basically what optimal play should be / will be in several years) is interesting, but that perspective in itself doesn't justify anything. You still should explain why you see things the way you do, especially if your opinion is unconventional and you want to persuade anyone to be convinced by it.

I could say my character has long range disjoints that are unpunishable on powershield and a frame 1 OoS option in powershield -> jab and therefore she's the best character in the game in the magical theory meta of the future, but meta development will never make our reaction times any faster or change the fact that as a result, you always have to take a guess in every single exchange whether your action is 1 frame or 25 frames because the opponent might have already inputted shield or spotdodge by the time you input your attack and it was impossible for you to react to it. You live roughly a quarter of a second in the past at all times.

So, if you have to guess right several more times than your opponent and you're punished harder for your incorrect guesses (i.e. Pikachu vs most top and even high tiers) on top of not having particularly good tools to make lower risk / higher reward plays, the only thing that can change this weakness without buffs is finding a way for your character to do more damage on a single conversion than before and/or finding more reliable KO setups for your character. Unless you're certain that such things exist and the problem is simply that nobody utilizes them, you can't say that your character is better in the magical theory meta of the future, otherwise the same argument can be made for literally every character. This is only a valid argument when your character possesses tech (that is humanly possible to execute reliably) that no one is utilizing yet, and as far as Pikachu goes I don't see any.

pls no uthrow RAR thunderino

 

[sedrf]

Wait I'm confused how does rosa lose to pikachu?
At the same time maybe pikachu is like and needs alot of optimization to the point where he is considered the best character.Like the way esam describes pikachu/corrin it makes them seem more stronger tha to be expected. It usually happens when an inadequate character is overrated and a broken character is undervalued. I feel esam's questions to alot of answers come off a offhanded. Like when everyone was causing a stir about bayo he just sad "just sdi". not to say sid ing is n't important vs bayo, he didn't went into depth like zero did in his tweets or his video about bayo. Like if sding was that easy she wouldn't be doing **** in japan like at all where they seem to have more idea on di ing bayo combos due to her being rather common their.
At the same time the comment could possibly just him bot wanting to be part of the large rissue.

 

[nannerham]

KKON16 top 16

Spoiler: results

1st: Larry Lurr (,,)
2nd: VoiD ()
3rd: Mike kirby ()
4th: Dren ()
5th: 6WX ()
5th: ZekkenB ()
7th: K0rean ()
7th: Wing it ()
9th: Ninjalink (,,)
9th: Jalex ()
9th: Kennypu ()
9th: Fruitbasket ()
13th: Brigade ()
13th: DanM()
13th: Snappy (,)

13th: Deno (???)

I couldn't find anything on deno for the life of me, if you guys know what character he uses let me know.

 

[Luco]

Good day for Yoshi, it seems. Dren getting further than 6WX and Ninjalink is quite an achievement. Interested in who he went up against.

 

[Djent]

6WX lost to spots 1 (Larry) and 2 (VoiD), NinjaLink to spots 3 (MikeKirby) and 2, and Dren to spots 5 (6WX) and 2. He made it further because of the quirky bracket that resulted from VoiD's early upset; the caliber of player he lost to wasn't higher. It is still a great day for Yoshi, but in this case it's not because he outplaced known threats.

 

[bc1910]

Wow, ESAM put Greninja/Pika as even? Considering he only put 7 characters even or worse, that's pretty incredible.

And considering you might as well bump the entire MU chart down by 5 points, we should be entertaining the possibility of Greninja/Pika being 45:55 Greninja favoured.

There's no beating ESAM in a match up discussion.
I would know.
https://youtu.be/MJLmgnFpJg8?t=15s

I'd rather people not acknowledge them then pretend it's worth discussing them beyond 'feels'.
Ironically/hypocritically, his match up spread he just posted for Corrin is basically what I think because Corrin is busted. But only on a purely theoretically level.

It's funny because I don't think that spread is that bad either.

Speaking from a Greninja perspective, Greninja's not a big fan of swords in general due to stuff like Marth-Fair-in-the-blindspot but he can still outcamp almost all of them and generally has a better advantage state. Corrin is the only one besides Cloud whom I think Greninja could actually lose to, especially on stages like Battlefield where Greninja's camping is mitigated even further by Side B. Though I think the 2% reduction to full charged DFS made a big difference in this MU since an uncharged shuriken will clank with it now. Enough of a difference to see it as even anywhere except BF, at least. And maybe DL but Greninja kills pretty early there.

I still think Corn is just obnoxious, not busted. Even in theory the big moving wall can be limited by the best gunners. You have to have the movement speed to punish side B though.

...he might be theory-busted on BF.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard took top 16 at a regional.

Please let this be a sign that people are actually playing him now.


Honestly, Zard, Miis and Duck Hunt are screwed over because people straight up don't play them when they have potential.

They can do some seriously crazy things.

 

[HoSmash4]

I think I was the only Yoshi saying that Yoshi vs. Sheik might've been even prepatch but everyone was sure it's -1 so I settled with it.
The MU was about even if you managed to avoid the 50:50 and so it's probably pretty even to +1 (for Yoshi) right now. The MU is no fun for Sheik because she has to play super defensively/safely because she can die really early to Yoshi moves and Yoshi is really really good in avoiding Sheiks killmoves. She is still superior framewise and if she plays really campy and safe all the time Yoshi has a really hard time getting in the game.

I played Gregs at Avalon and he played insanely campy. He won game 2 by timeout (2 stocks left | of 3) and Game 3 would've been a timeout as well but he didn't secure the lead and had to approach and that didn't end well for him.

so I think it's even if you play that ugly.. but I have to gather more data on that MU post patch. Didn't play the new Sheik MU much so far. It just felt prepatch that the MU was about even (or a very weak -1)
I've never lost to a worse sheik and played along the best sheiks my region had to offer. (Mr-R dropped a game to a Yoshi before and twittered prepatch that he thinks Yoshi is 55-45 for sheik)

AT LEAST Yoshi doesn't lose that MU anymore imo.


E: Sheik was not a roadblock. Diddy is the roadblock and that will probably never change..

Perfect sheik play shuts down a lot of yoshi options but in a game of reads, that isn't possible and sheik mosquito hits aren't good enough.

I think it's more interesting to see Sheik play their game around their numerous other kill confirms/set ups rather than needing to crutch on shielding and grabbing until it works.

Considering how much of those abilities still exist (don't you enjoy seeing needles to BF? I love it), it's basically superfluous on a power level point (being able to achieve the same things, just with more difficulty). The fair range nerf was more incidental in reducing power level then down throw up air.

I wish people weren't oblivious to the fact that top level sheiks used every tool in their book pre-patch... especialy Ramin/Void. Although the downthrow 50/50 was the best kill setup by far it's easy to fall into that assumption.