Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[blackghost]

most ganon player shave the mindset that they only need to get in once. and really its a much higher skill requirement to keep someone out all game without messing up than to get in twice and do major damage. watch ganonthebeat play and you'll see.

 

[adom4]

What do you do against needles? Pellets? Slingshots? Swords? Diddy's Fair and Dtilt? Sonic? Rosalina?

Ganon doesn't have the tools to deal with all this.

I'd rather fight against those people than against people who constantly pressure him upclose, he hates heavy pressure on his shield much more than camping.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How does Ganon close the gap?

 

[LancerStaff]

Eh, there is no gap between the Pits, just small differences. You can't define which Pit is straight up better because it's up to your playstyle and MUs. Arrows are no gamechanger nor is stronger side b. Besides, Dark Pit's arrows are better on neutral because they are faster and stronger but Pit's are superior off stage for obvious reasons. They both have the same amount of end lag in the air and there is little reason to use full hop arrows all the time because it has longer startup, they can't be charged and you put yourself in a bad position.

Pit's ftilt is better but it's not reliable killing tool by any means because you need the sweetspot and fthrow is usually a better option at the ledge anyway.

So there you have it, they are literally equal. I really don't understand how some people place the Pits, say 2 places away from each other.

If they were equal then Dark Pit would be played just as much... He isn't. I can't remember the last time Earth used him in singles, and I don't think has any notable solo mains like Pit does. The only way they'd be literally equal is if they were exactly the same, but they're not. One is going to be better.

 

[Yoshister]

If they were equal then Dark Pit would be played just as much... He isn't. I can't remember the last time Earth used him in singles

This is because Pit's arrows can be angled much more than Dark Pit's. Since Earth uses Pit's angled arrows a lot, Earth would never use Dark Pit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Something I've noticed Clouds in my area (8 of the PR here in OK use him, lol) do recently is, instead of LCSing recoveries as they predict they'll move up at that time, they instead dash off and B-reverse Limit Blade Beam onto the ledge corner itself.

LBB activates there and most characters have no choice but to go right into it. The knockback angle is low enough to ensure a stage collision at the corner, and because of the variance in hitlag when characters rise into a long lasting move like this, it becomes very difficult to time the wall tech correctly.

idk, just something to think about. It guarantees the 2-frame so for characters like Sonic and Corrin, this may be superior over LCS catching.

Dawg where have you been?

I said cloud could do this week one.

 

[FullMoon]

I'd rather fight against those people than against people who constantly pressure him upclose, he hates heavy pressure on his shield much more than camping.

So, following that logic, what are Ganon's worst MUs? A few of the campy characters mentioned above also have some pretty good shield pressure like Megaman (I think) or Sheik.

 

[Dusk Pit]

If they were equal then Dark Pit would be played just as much... He isn't. I can't remember the last time Earth used him in singles, and I don't think has any notable solo mains like Pit does. The only way they'd be literally equal is if they were exactly the same, but they're not. One is going to be better.

There would be zero notable Pit mains if Earth didn't play him. And obviously Pit is better for him because of how much he uses arrows.
It's a funny thing that Nairo and Zero think that Dark Pit is better...

 

[adom4]

How does Ganon close the gap?

Mostly by getting into dash attack/D-tilt range where they can't throw out their projectiles safely.

So, following that logic, what are Ganon's worst MUs? A few of the campy characters mentioned above also have some pretty good shield pressure like Megaman (I think) or Sheik.

Sheik does better against Ganon by just going ham on his shield because his oos sucks, Megaman is annoying but the MU got way more tolerable after the wizkick buffs since lemons don't auto win the neutral against him anymore.
Also imo some of his worst MUs include, Pikachu, Bayo, Sheik, Greninja, Pikachu and Sheik just pressure his shield incredibly hard while Bayo and Greninja are just incredibly hard to hit for Ganon (Greninja's hurtbox is beyond bull****)
As @Blobface also said, Ganon just hates characters that he can't abuse their disadvantage state well, which the characters i mentioned above also have against Ganon.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about.

Besides are sliding PP utilt, their movement is the same. And jab set-ups can all be jumped out of.

Not to argue with your point, but I was under the impression that the jab set-up is similar to a 50:50 situation.

In the event that the opponent airdodges or remains in place, they will eat an fsmash. However, as you stated they can jump out of it. The Marth/Lucina can read this with a uair thus ending the stock that way. Mr.E has done this a few times in the past, but of course I have no idea how reliable this method would be. I'm nothing close to a Marcina main- my knowledge is limited in the subject, but I was wondering how accurate this is? Is it possible to avoid this altogether with some kind of DI?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jump airdodge. But yes Marcina still gets very nice positional advantage and its a decent mix-up situation for them.

 

[LancerStaff]

This is because Pit's arrows can be angled much more than Dark Pit's. Since Earth uses Pit's angled arrows a lot, Earth would never use Dark Pit.

Uh... I get that. Earth prefers Pit because the arrows are that much better then Electroshock.

There would be zero notable Pit mains if Earth didn't play him. And obviously Pit is better for him because of how much he uses arrows.
It's a funny thing that Nairo and Zero think that Dark Pit is better...

I'm not just talking about like ESAM tier players man. All our players doing well in locals and regionals vastly prefer Pit. Dark Pit has like Lucina level useage man. Pit has Megaman or Villager level.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Uh... I get that. Earth prefers Pit because the arrows are that much better then Electroshock.



I'm not just talking about like ESAM tier players man. All our players doing well in locals and regionals vastly prefer Pit. Dark Pit has like Lucina level useage man. Pit has Megaman or Villager level.

If you prefer arrows to electroshock fine, but again, pretty much playstyle and MU defines which one is better, not your opinion.

I thought we were talking about notable Pit mains. If not, there are Dark pits like kiraflax, crabby and some others who use both. It's pretty much a general consensus by now that the Pits are equal. Join the discord if you wanna argue about this with other Pit mains.

 

[Dagon97]

How does Ganon close the gap?

you need to coax your opponent into doing something unsafe, cross up empty hops are really good especially if your opponent does not call you out with an aerial which most people won't

 

[LancerStaff]

If you prefer arrows to electroshock fine, but again, pretty much playstyle and MU defines which one is better, not your opinion.

I thought we were talking about notable Pit mains. If not, there are Dark pits like kiraflax, crabby and some others who use both. It's pretty much a general consensus by now that the Pits are equal. Join the discord if you wanna argue about this with other Pit mains.

There's like two MUs where people think Dark Pit is superior and a handful where they're equal.

Everybody who uses both uses both uses Pit more. Most of what I've seen of Kiraflax is of him using Pit as well. Most everything I've seen off the discord suggests that Pit's superior... Electroshock is just highly situational. He gets some mileage just having it, but other then that Pit's arrows just way more useful overall.

 

[blackghost]

How does Ganon close the gap?

ganon doesnt close the gap through a movement option. the ganon PLAYER closes the gap however they can: Powershield,roll, reads, ect. once ganon gets his hands/feet on you it just hurts. in a two stock format ganon is a lot more viable.

 

[sedrf]

Riot made a bayo mu chart

 

[Pyr]

Really don't think she has that many +2s. I mean, that's half the cast. Literally half the cast. Sensing a bit of bias here.

 

[|RK|]

There is nothing Bayo has that makes her +2 over Kirby.

EDIT: Okay, this isn't an MU chart. It's just taking the tier list and splitting it into +1 and +2 with some outliers.

EDIT 2: A +1 over Cloud, Mewtwo, and Sonic? Bold move, Cotton.

 

[Ninety]

Is that for prepatch or what?

 

[ARGHETH]

Dath traded sets with Pink Fresh back at Glitch...the MU's probably +1 Bayo.

 

[FamilyTeam]

So Bayonetta wins against literally every single character in the game with 6 exceptions?
48/54? (Sicne we're not counting ditto)
Seriously, that MU chart makes her look almost as good as Melee Fox.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

If I'm not mistaken, people used to claim that Greninja was a decent character to deal with Bayonetta...And then she got nerfed. Something is very wrong with this MU chart.

 

[blackghost]

Riot made a bayo mu chart

He must be trolling. She has a ton of even matchups with few wins. She only cleanly beats a handful of characters.
Also Megaman isn't even.
Ryu is even
She isn't plus 2 on zss
How can she be minus one Mario and plus 2 on doc? That makes no sense.
This is either awful or he's trolling.
Greninja has the ability to get out of a stairway combo and then mash his side b and kill her for free. Itso not a guarantee. An experienced bayo can avoid it but ito still a very good ability

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Maybe we're sleeping on this character. Or maybe Riot is the ESAM of Bayonetta. Who knows?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Speaking of Bayonetta how exactly are you supposed to DI/SDI out of her combos now after the changes? People say she no longer gets free extended combos but I've definitely seen even at high level, Bayonettas still pulling off 50+ percent strings sometimes leading to death off the top or the side of the stage.

Which makes me believe her biggest nerfs were in neutral, big combos are still possible with her. Unless no one knows how to DI to avoid them.

Anyway Anti recently posted his current top 10 player list.
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/755402904446656513?lang=en

Interestingly there's no character repeats on this list...except for Mario. Which means Mario is the most represented at top level play, 2X more than anyone else.

Also Kamemushi only travelled to one international event thus far, he could potentially be a lot higher on this list if he travelled more, it will be interesting to see how he does at Genesis 4. Japan in general has a lot of hidden killers, I wonder how many of them would be ranked top 10 if they constantly travelled to American tournaments.

At any rate I'd argue Megaman already has the results of a top 12 character given CEO, Evo and various Japanese tournaments.

 

[TDK]

Decided to compile who lost to who at EVO, for the top 32. Maybe this will help us with matchups?

Spoiler

--- 1st ---
Ally
Sent to Losers by: N/A
Eliminated by: N/A

--- 2nd ---
Kamemushi
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: Ally

--- 3rd ---
ZeRo
Sent to losers by: Mr. E
Eliminated by: Kamemushi

--- 4th ---
VoiD
Sent to losers by: Kamemushi
Eliminated by: ZeRo

--- 5th ---
Ranai
Sent to losers by: Abadango
Eliminated by: VoiD

Abadango
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: ZeRo

--- 7th ---
Dabuz
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: Ranai

Larry Lurr
Sent to losers by: Abadango
Eliminated by: ZeRo

--- 9th ---
Trela
Sent to losers by: Ranai
Eliminated by: Dabuz

Marss
Sent to losers by: Dyr
Eliminated by: Ranai

Earth
Sent to losers by: Kamemushi
Eliminated by: ZeRo

Vinnie
Sent to Losers by: VoiD
Eliminated by: Larry Lurr

--- 13th ---
(Oni) Day
Sent to losers by: Dren
Eliminated by: Trela

Mr. E
Sent to losers by: Vinnie
Eliminated by: Marss

KEN
Sent to losers by: VoiD
Eliminated by: ZeRo

Nairo
Sent to losers by: Ranai
Eliminated by: Larry /

--- 17th ---
Mr. R
Sent to losers by: Kamemushi
Eliminated by: Trela

Rich Brown
Sent to losers by: Komorikiri
Eliminated by: Mr. E

Xaltis
Sent to losers by: Earth
Eliminated by: Day

Komorikiri /
Sent to losers by: Dabuz
Eliminated by: ZeRo

dyr
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: KEN

Ito
Sent to losers by: Mr. R
Eliminated by: Nairo

Regi
Sent to losers by: VoiD
Eliminated by: Marss

Pugwest
Sent to losers by: Earth
Eliminated by: Larry

--- 25th ---
Hyuga
Sent to losers by: Vinnie
Eliminated by: ZeRo

Tyrant /
Sent to losers by: Regi
Eliminated by: KEN

K9
Sent to losers by: Shaky
Eliminated by: Ito

Dath
Sent to losers by: ANTi (?)
Eliminated by: Pugwest

SS /
Sent to losers by: Pink Fresh (?)
Eliminated by: Rich Brown

Ned
Sent to losers by: NAKAT (?)
Eliminated by: Marss

ESAM
Sent to losers by: NickC
Eliminated by: Trela

6WX
Sent to losers by: Abadango
Eliminated by: Day

Enjoy.

Also, Pugwest made a Marth MU chart (Hint, the numbers are backwards)

Spoiler

 

[C0rvus]

Riot is kind of a memer, I doubt that's a wholly serious MU chart. And if it is... LOL
Does he still play Bayo? Would be cool if he did, but I thought he went back to DK post nerf. I'll admit I haven't been following his play.

 

[blackghost]

Speaking of Bayonetta how exactly are you supposed to DI/SDI out of her combos now after the changes? People say she no longer gets free extended combos but I've definitely seen even at high level, Bayonettas still pulling off 50+ percent strings sometimes leading to death off the top or the side of the stage.

Which makes me believe her biggest nerfs were in neutral, big combos are still possible with her. Unless no one knows how to DI to avoid them.

Anyway Anti recently posted his current top 10 player list.
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/755402904446656513?lang=en

Interestingly there's no character repeats on this list...except for Mario. Which means Mario is the most represented at top level play, 2X more than anyone else.

Also Kamemushi only travelled to one international event thus far, he could potentially be a lot higher on this list if he travelled more, it will be interesting to see how he does at Genesis 4. Japan in general has a lot of hidden killers, I wonder how many of them would be ranked top 10 if they constantly travelled to American tournaments.

At any rate I'd argue Megaman already has the results of a top 12 character given CEO, Evo and various Japanese tournaments.

Bayo combos are way easier to escape now. Fair 2 should be directed away from and witch twist has an sdi multiplier of 2. You should get out. Sdi in any direction (even down) to escape. In a normal situation bayo cannot carry anyone to the top of the screen or a side without witch twist.
She completely lost her dabk as an offensive option. Bayo relies on fair 1 and dtilt to get going. Her neutral gane was never good now it's below average

 

[SaltyKracka]

Bayo combos are way easier to escape now. Fair 2 should be directed away from and witch twist has an sdi multiplier of 2. You should get out. Sdi in any direction (even down) to escape. In a normal situation bayo cannot carry anyone to the top of the screen or a side without witch twist.
She completely lost her dabk as an offensive option. Bayo relies on fair 1 and dtilt to get going. Her neutral gane was never good now it's below average

Yes, yes, her neutral game with her unpunishable uncontentestable approach and combo starter from a weird angle was never good.

For an encore, MK just wasn't that good in Brawl.

 

[bound_for_earth]

Roy got nerfed hard

 

[DanGR]

Decided to compile who lost to who at EVO, for the top 32. Maybe this will help us with matchups?

Spoiler

--- 1st ---
Ally
Sent to Losers by: N/A
Eliminated by: N/A

--- 2nd ---
Kamemushi
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: Ally

--- 3rd ---
ZeRo
Sent to losers by: Mr. E
Eliminated by: Kamemushi

--- 4th ---
VoiD
Sent to losers by: Kamemushi
Eliminated by: ZeRo

--- 5th ---
Ranai
Sent to losers by: Abadango
Eliminated by: VoiD

Abadango
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: ZeRo

--- 7th ---
Dabuz
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: Ranai

Larry Lurr
Sent to losers by: Abadango
Eliminated by: ZeRo

--- 9th ---
Trela
Sent to losers by: Ranai
Eliminated by: Dabuz

Marss
Sent to losers by: Dyr
Eliminated by: Ranai

Earth
Sent to losers by: Kamemushi
Eliminated by: ZeRo

Vinnie
Sent to Losers by: VoiD
Eliminated by: Larry Lurr

--- 13th ---
(Oni) Day
Sent to losers by: Dren
Eliminated by: Trela

Mr. E
Sent to losers by: Vinnie
Eliminated by: Marss

KEN
Sent to losers by: VoiD
Eliminated by: ZeRo

Nairo
Sent to losers by: Ranai
Eliminated by: Larry /

--- 17th ---
Mr. R
Sent to losers by: Kamemushi
Eliminated by: Trela

Rich Brown
Sent to losers by: Komorikiri
Eliminated by: Mr. E

Xaltis
Sent to losers by: Earth
Eliminated by: Day

Komorikiri /
Sent to losers by: Dabuz
Eliminated by: ZeRo

dyr
Sent to losers by: Ally
Eliminated by: KEN

Ito
Sent to losers by: Mr. R
Eliminated by: Nairo

Regi
Sent to losers by: VoiD
Eliminated by: Marss

Pugwest
Sent to losers by: Earth
Eliminated by: Larry

--- 25th ---
Hyuga
Sent to losers by: Vinnie
Eliminated by: ZeRo

Tyrant /
Sent to losers by: Regi
Eliminated by: KEN

K9
Sent to losers by: Shaky
Eliminated by: Ito

Dath
Sent to losers by: ANTi (?)
Eliminated by: Pugwest

SS /
Sent to losers by: Pink Fresh (?)
Eliminated by: Rich Brown

Ned
Sent to losers by: NAKAT (?)
Eliminated by: Marss

ESAM
Sent to losers by: NickC
Eliminated by: Trela

6WX
Sent to losers by: Abadango
Eliminated by: Day

Enjoy.

The heed given to the players' health at this tournament makes me discount all of this. The conditions were laughable. The mistakes they made left and right were so plainly inconsistent with normal top level play. I'm disgusted with EVO and its organizers.

 

[Das Koopa]

So tomorrow is also Umebara apparently?

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy got nerfed hard

...From what, PM? Roy hasn't been directly nerfed once in SSB4, just the opposite actually with some minor frame data buffs once. His initially mixed reception quickly settled on him being bottom 15, especially after the Marth buffs.

 

[Piipp]

So tomorrow is also Umebara apparently?

KTAR Saga is also tomorrow I'm pretty sure.

 

[blackghost]

Yes, yes, her neutral game with her unpunishable uncontentestable approach and combo starter from a weird angle was never good.

For an encore, MK just wasn't that good in Brawl.

But regardless the conversation was about how to escape her post patch combos and how her neutral game is now. If you neutral game is reliant on one move and that move is nerfed how is it a good neutral?
But I'm forgetting can't have a conversation about current bayo on this forum without someone bringing up prepatch bayo.
Contribute or don't answer. This thread is about the current state of the game. What she had last version isn't relevant at this point.

 

[BTVolta]

Riot made a bayo mu chart

There's a lot of +2s on this chart cause Riot believe "an ass mu is an ass mu all the same".

Does he still play Bayo? Would be cool if he did, but I thought he went back to DK post nerf. I'll admit I haven't been following his play.

He plays Bayo with Dk and Pac-man as pockets now. I saw him use Ryu at CEO, but he doesn't mention it anywhere, so I don't know if he's keeping it secret or if he thought his opponent was free(it was right before playing Umeki so the latter doesn't seem too likely).

If I'm not mistaken, people used to claim that Greninja was a decent character to deal with Bayonetta...And then she got nerfed. Something is very wrong with this MU chart.

I don't recall seeing Frog do too well against pre-patch Bayo. Particularly watching iStudying lose to Tyroy(Best Frog(?) Vs. best Bayo(?) at the time).

 

[Dusk Pit]

There's like two MUs where people think Dark Pit is superior and a handful where they're equal.

Everybody who uses both uses both uses Pit more. Most of what I've seen of Kiraflax is of him using Pit as well. Most everything I've seen off the discord suggests that Pit's superior... Electroshock is just highly situational. He gets some mileage just having it, but other then that Pit's arrows just way more useful overall.

I'm sorry but simply everything in that post is wrong...
Look, I don't mind if you think Pit is better but don't think that is the ultimate truth, cause it isn't. I don't know what you have seen or what you have been told but i know it's incorrect.

 

[SaltyKracka]

But regardless the conversation was about how to escape her post patch combos and how her neutral game is now. If you neutral game is reliant on one move and that move is nerfed how is it a good neutral?
But I'm forgetting can't have a conversation about current bayo on this forum without someone bringing up prepatch bayo.
Contribute or don't answer. This thread is about the current state of the game. What she had last version isn't relevant at this point.

Except for the bit where you were complaining about how prepatch Bayo's neutral game "was never good". Which I called you out on.

Now stop trying to make yourself out as a victim, boyo.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm sorry but simply everything in that post is wrong...
Look, I don't mind if you think Pit is better but don't think that is the ultimate truth, cause it isn't. I don't know what you have seen or what you have been told but i know it's incorrect.

It's true that Kiraflax mostly uses Pit and that Electroshock is more situational than standard arrows.

Not really sure where the misinformation in his post is. Dark Pit is very rarely seen and as far as I can tell even most mentionworthy Pit mains don't use him or use him frequently.