A counterpoint to the SSBB being simplified... and more

[maelstrom218]

What's DJC? And if by sweetspotting, you mean like Link's hookahot and Lucas' snake rope, I'm sure that you won't automatically grab the ledge if you're too low from the egde

DJC = Double Jump Cancel. It's a technique where you jump, then double jump, then perform an aerial in quick succession. Overall, a DJC'd aerial is faster and more effective than a shffl'd aerial. They didn't remove Peach's DJC'd aerials, but they did remove it from Yoshi. Which makes no sense, because Yoshi needs all the help he can get.

Yes I have. Your point? Would you still be playing this game, let alone claiming it's as deep, if it only featured original charfacters? I know for a fact that fanboyism for the Nintendo characters can do that.

You don't seem to understand. Or either, what you're saying doesn't make sense to me. It's not the characters that give the game depth, it's the engine, and the associated techniques that give a game depth, like airdodging, wavedashing, DI, %-dependent combos, edgeguarding. . .

For example, Guilty Gear is deep because the engine provides you with a lot of freedom in any given situation to be aggressive and/or defensive. There's FRC'ing to cancel lag and increase combo potential, there's guaranteed knockdown moves that can lead to oki (aka pressuring the opponent to block and eat chip damage), there's bursting (to escape combos), there's Dead Angle Attacks (to escape combos), there's air-dashing, there's damage scaling (to prevent excessive damage from extended combos). Guilty Gear is hella deep.

. . .there's a lot of stuff that the engine provides, and it's this stuff that makes the game have depth. Not the fact that there's original characters vs. hidden characters.

And furthermore, this argument about whether or not Brawl is deep is pointless. What we know is that Brawl is NOT Melee, in that a lot of the stuff we know and love has been taken out or dumbed down--wavedashing, jab resetting, DJC'ing (for Yoshi, anyways), manual sweetspotting, etc. But Brawl may have it's share of advanced stuff. E for All just simply wasn't enough time to discover everything.

NINTENDO KNOWS PEOPLE!!!

No they don't. Ever read that Nintendo Power article on competitive SSBM? Half of it was pure garbage.

 

[Ban Heim]

Okay guys, let's not be ******** here. Brawl added advanced techs? Like what?

Here's a list of things that Brawl got wrong:

1. Auto-sweet spotted up B's - Makes it easier to recover, thus dumbing the game down. You don't need any skill to get the perfect sweetspot to avoid that charged F-smash waiting at the top of the stage. -Depth

2. New Airdodge - No, this does not offer more versatility. You can't control where you go so your movement is much more predictable. And no, moving afterwards is not that big of a deal. You have a 1-2 second delay after airdodging during which a good opponent would already kick your face in.

3. Homing Tether Recoveries - Guys, it's obvious they won't reach if you're far away. That's given so stop saying it. What's bad about it is that you don't have to have any skill to pull them off. Just hit L and bam, as long as you're close to the ledge, you got it. This reduces depth and dumbs the game down once again.

4. Auto-L cancel - Now how the hell is this not dumbing the game down? It does it automatically for you as long as you are doing an aerial while you land.

5. Floatier Characters - Not as big of a deal but this makes everyone predictable, which reduces versatility, which again, reduces depth.

6. Much easier to DI - Not as big of a deal, but it is being dumbed down since you have more time to DI, it's more effective, and it's easier.

7. DJC removed - Again, less versatility and depth (this is starting to get redundant). Characters are much more predictable and easier to kill.

8. Turning around with B moves Removed - Not this is a horrible, horrible idea on Nintendo's part. Characters like Marth, Samus, and a bunch of others made very good use of this technique. There were so many uses for it that it isn't even funny. Having it removed makes no sense. I mean, if you can now grab the ledge without facing it, why wouldn't you include this as well?

9. Being able to Grab the ledge without facing it - Again, another perfect example of dumbing gameplay down. I guess people were too stupid to turn around and face the ledge before attempting to grab it. It makes sense though in a way since they removed turning around with B moves (yay for ****ty "additions").

@Green Kirby: If you don't know what DJC is, you really haven't been to a good tournament, therefore your opinion on Melee's depth means about as much as the **** I took last night.

@Psydon: About SMG: Yeah, the story mode/early stars are easy but so are the others. That's my gripe. None of the stars take more than 4-5 attempts (and there are only a few that require that many attempts). Bouldergeist Daredevil run, which is supposed to be one of the "tough" stars took me around 3-4 attempts. IMO, the whole game should be a daredevil run.

You've already decided this before the game is even released?

Yes. Like I said, these are my expectations. Expectations are something you have before something else happens. Hope all you want, but I know I'll be right in the end. Brawl won't touch Melee in terms of depth.

 

[C00P]

lol what "plethora" of techniques are you talking about? cuz last time i checked we only have 1-2 advanced techniques yet they removed nearly all the major ones we had from melee


btw op is basically saying, "NINTENDO IS GOOD I R FANBOY"

Dude... I'm basing my OP of hard evidence. Anyone who watched that press conference heard it too and I bet a lot of people watched it considering it was a new systems first public demo.

I am a Nintendo Fan, they make good games and systems... If I called you stupid for your opinion with no reason, this 13 year-old bad grammatical fanboy crap people have become so inclined to flame with, would be justified.

The news is slow, people who have played this game said they enjoyed it (OMG) even without wavedashing! All games have some exploit others will find and these will be labeled as the advance techniques because they are not in the instruction manual. That means they probably won't be posted on the Dojo and we won't discover them ourselves until we have had time with the game.

Too everyone arguing that Mario is not hardcore because its too easy. Yes I agree it was a bit on the easy side. There were about 15 stars that were actually hard, but try it after you get Luigi, his controls are more slippery and just that much more harder to use.

What truly makes Galaxy a hardcore game is the originality mixed with throwback nostalgia. If you are the casual gamer you can beat it... not in one sitting, not in a repetitive wash rinse repeat manor... you are forced to get better (with some hand-holding to start) but those casual can beat it and have fun. The hardcore however IM TALKING TO YOU YUNA will proceed through the game after it's beat to clean up anything they have missed before.

WHO HERE HAS ALL THE COINS FROM EVERY LEVEL?! until I see someone show me proof of this then this game has never been completed. It's been beat... not completed.

All because a game is easy does not make it less hardcore. Those who are truly hardcore will not let an item or secret get by, they will beat the game so that there is nothing left to do. To do that in galaxy is tough and I'd respect you for doing it.

Finally, I think Smash Bros. will have the same appeal. I remember almost no one I know used "advanced techniques" when the game first released. Why? Because they were being developed. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE PHYSICS ENGINE COMPLETELY WITHOUT HOURS WIHT THE GAME.

Like my first post... Don't get your panties in a bunch until the game is released. Honestly if it isn't a "Hardcore" game... it sure as hell will be a fun one... relax

 

[Ban Heim]

Like my first post... Don't get your panties in a bunch until the game is released. Honestly if it isn't a "Hardcore" game... it sure as hell will be a fun one... relax

Nobody is arguing that. Like I said, it'll be a fun "party" game, but it will not be nearly as deep and as good of a fighter as Melee was.

And about getting all of the coins in SMG...that's not hardcore. That's having no life. There's a big difference between the two.

 

[C00P]

No they don't. Ever read that Nintendo Power article on competitive SSBM? Half of it was pure garbage.

Who reads Nintendo Power?... That whole magazine is pure garbage. I'm saying all the best games for a Nintendo system are first party titles.... even when matched up against systems for an older audience... Nintendo games are more if not as much fun.

That is how they know

Please don't associate NP with the actual company. Magazines like EGM get more exclusives from Nintendo than NP. Nintendo Power is propaganda... don't poison your mind.

 

[GreenKirby]

Um, Melee is an incredibly deep game, you need to explain yourself as to why you do not think it is deep?

By luck it was deep. And can you honestly look at me in the face and still claim that Melee was deep if the Nintendo content was replaced with original content?

BTW, I mean not as deep as people make it out to be.

And guys, I'm not gonna remember every abbrieavtion for ****'s sake. I know what double jump cancel is. But the abbr. didn't come to me for a moment. >_>

 

[KazenoZ]

Kazeno, I stand corrected.

Actually, just today I went back to viewing some E4All footage to disprove myself, and I did, I watched the one from GameFAQs I think, I could clearly see the NPC's Mario sliding backwards a bit when he was standing near the spikey item thing(Around 1:55), so considering this was the biggest threat to the wavdash, I'm now 90% sure it's possible to do in Brawl, but in a different method because of the new Air Dodge.
I say, as long as there's slide landing, there'll be a wavedash, 4 days were just not enough for discovering it anew.

So you were right after all =P
And that's good news to the competetive scene.

 

[TheCanuck75]

By luck it was deep. And can you honestly look at me in the face and still claim that Melee was deep if the Nintendo content was replaced with original content?

BTW, I mean not as deep as people make it out to be.

And guys, I'm not gonna remember every abbrieavtion for ****'s sake. I know what double jump cancel is. But the abbr. didn't come to me for a moment. >_>

But you said it wasn't deep, but luck makes it different?

And no, I cannot look you in the face, we're on a forum. You are making a horrible point saying that if Nintendo used "original" characters it would not be considered as deep. That is an illogical argument. Look at the contrapositive...

If the game is not deep then the game has established characters.

Can you say that this statement is true? If you cannot, then you are breaking DeMorgan's Law of logic. Which you are, your point is invalid.... if you are not sure what DeMorgan's law is, look it up. I am using well founded logic.

If you think the contrapositive is true then I could name a ton of games where the games is deep and has established characters.... but I hope by now you see the you are wrong. No offense.

 

[S2]

But you said it wasn't deep, but luck makes it different?

And no, I cannot look you in the face, we're on a forum. You are making a horrible point saying that if Nintendo used "original" characters it would not be considered as deep. That is an illogical argument. Look at the contrapositive...

If the game is not deep then the game has established characters.

Can you say that this statement is true? If you cannot, then you are breaking DeMorgan's Law of logic. Which you are, your point is invalid.... if you are not sure what DeMorgan's law is, look it up. I am using well founded logic.

If you think the contrapositive is true then I could name a ton of games where the games is deep and has established characters.... but I hope by now you see the you are wrong. No offense.

Agreed.

If Melee was the exact same game except with original content (new characters, all original concepts) it wouldn't take away from depth. The game might be less popular, but that has no bearing on how deep it is.


The popularity only did 1 thing for Melee's depth. That was, we discovered more of what the game had, because more people were playing it competitively.


We will have to see whether Brawl is simplified or not. On the surface, it certainly looks that way.

But that doesn't tell the whole story. You have to wait and see what kinds of strategy's and advanced techs come out. Trust me, I've seen plenty of games that appear to be simple at first, but have a ton of depth and lots of mind games.

Remember, lots of casuals still think Melee is a button masher (because they haven't played it much). Doesn't mean they are right. And we haven't seen Brawl enough to know its depth either.

 

[MookieRah]

And can you honestly look at me in the face and still claim that Melee was deep if the Nintendo content was replaced with original content?

Changing the characters don't remove depth. This is a dumb argument. Smash would just simply not be as popular if it didn't have all the Nintendo characters, but assuming everything was the same there wouldn't be any loss of depth. Really, this is a terrible point to make, cause depth has nothing to do with popularity.

By luck it was deep.

LOL, that is for **** sure. If it wasn't for the stuff we discovered the game would be very much lacking. We honestly DID luck out with Melee; however, saying that we will luck out with Brawl is being ridiculously optimistic. Yeah, there *could* be plenty of new advanced stuff, and I'm sure there will be a lot of it, but that doesn't mean that it will be as good as the stuff in melee. The ATs never hurt anyone, and while I can understand the removal of wave dashing for the new air dodging the rest of the ATs that were removed shouldn't have, and had no siginificant reason to be removed.

Dude... I'm basing my OP of hard evidence. Anyone who watched that press conference heard it too and I bet a lot of people watched it considering it was a new systems first public demo.

Why the hell would you base your arguments about Brawl on a speech made over a year ago? You do know that doesn't make sense right? The people arguing with your perspective are basing it off of the demo, which is concrete and has videos to support it, and not just simply something that a speaker said about it.

Also, anyone who says the competitive scene doesn't want to *relearn* stuff is ****ing ignorant. The competitive scene will learn all there is to Brawl like they did with Melee, it's the casual players who tend to complain about not wanting to learn stuff. I don't know how you guys decided that complaining about ATs being removed due to depth had anything to do with not wanting to learn new stuff.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Also, anyone who says the competitive scene doesn't want to *relearn* stuff is ****ing ignorant. The competitive scene will learn all there is to Brawl like they did with Melee, it's the casual players who tend to complain about not wanting to learn stuff. I don't know how you guys decided that complaining about ATs being removed due to depth had anything to do with not wanting to learn new stuff.

I think it just kind of gives people the sense of not being able to cope with change, is all.

 

[5150]

ya im gonna give on up on brawl boards soon. its like trying to teach a dog how to do Shakespeare.

 

[C00P]

Why the hell would you base your arguments about Brawl on a speech made over a year ago? You do know that doesn't make sense right? The people arguing with your perspective are basing it off of the demo, which is concrete and has videos to support it, and not just simply something that a speaker said about it.

I'm basing my opinion off the fact that Super Mario Galaxy and SSBB are probably two of the biggest releases they will make for so the Wii will set its place in stone. Yes I agree 100% that the speech really wouldn't have much relevance IF (and this is my opinion which others obviously differ in) Super Mario Galaxy didn't follow through with what the speech said.

Reggie said it would be for the serious gamers and honestly... I feel like it was... Yes it was slightly easy... but I still find myself revisiting levels just to have fun and get better at them. This is what I expect for Smash Bros. based on that speech... an exciting, bring you back experience.

 

[MookieRah]

SMG is not Brawl. Also, most people in this thread will disagree with your feelings that SMG was for "serious" gamers.

 

[Psydon]

Actually, just today I went back to viewing some E4All footage to disprove myself, and I did, I watched the one from GameFAQs I think, I could clearly see the NPC's Mario sliding backwards a bit when he was standing near the spikey item thing(Around 1:55), so considering this was the biggest threat to the wavdash, I'm now 90% sure it's possible to do in Brawl, but in a different method because of the new Air Dodge.
I say, as long as there's slide landing, there'll be a wavedash, 4 days were just not enough for discovering it anew.

So you were right after all =P
And that's good news to the competetive scene.

...*goes back to check*

Bah.