VisetheStompy
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 46
Disclaimer! Please Read the below disclaimer before going reply crazyDisclaimer!
Ok first off lets get some things out of the way
1) This is not a soupbox thread. It is not trying to get you to play with items on nor is it telling you to play with items off. Most people here have got a preference firmly established and I am happy with which ever you choose.
2) This thread is not trying to dictate what should or should not be tourney rules. Tournament organizers decide that and have the right to do what they want.
3) This thread will be a long, like ridiciously long, sorry in advance.
4) I am going to be making a couple of analogies. They are not perfect but Smash is a really unique game so making decent analogies is pretty tricky. If my comparisions upset you, sorry.
5) Please try to be civil. I have already mentioned I am not trying to tell anyone what to do, I just want to get some interesting conversation going. If you are coming in solely to argue the merits of items on or off it would be probably better to not bother.
Disclaimer Over
With Brawl's release in the States on the Horizon, a lot of people are itching to see just how the competive scene will turn out and many have already started guessing what the format will be, what stages will be regulated to the banned or counter pick groups, and what characters will come out on top.
While some people are advocating just a flat transfer of Melee's format, many others(including myself) at the very least want to give everything a test run before deciding what is in and what is out. One of the biggest controversies right now is on the status of items.
For those unaware of item countroversy history of Melee( Though Im not sure there are many on this site) The short summary is a lot of arguments occured over trying to have some items in tournements or not. For a time there actual was both tournements with items on and off but after repeated testing the exploding crate factor ultimatly led to no items being the universal standard of all tournanaments, which frankly is 100% justified.
With the discovery in Brawl that exploding crates could actually be turned off the item on/off controversy has exploded back on to the scene hotter than ever.
I have seen arguments on both sides and rather than turn this into one of those threads Ill just outline the strongest argument on either side as well as my counter points.
The pro-item sides best argument is it is rather difficult to claim to be the most skilled player if one is not capable of handling every aspect of the game. The skills for throwing, counter catching, and weapon could lead to some very interesting strategies and matches as well as add some flavor to characters who have skills relating to items.
Now to be realistic even if items were on most peoples tournaments performance would be exactly the same. Perhaps one or two people would be item savaunts or hopelessly incapable of winning with them on, but the majority of high level tournament players would still be on top and the majority of low level players would still be on the bottom.
If a tournament player and a casual player had 20 matches with items on and 20 matches with items off, the tournament player will still have the large majority of the victories with only a difference of probably 1-3 matches. However in a tournament with hundreds or even thousands of dollars at stake a single match up is a huge difference! It is not only easier on the players but it is easier on the tournament organizers to have items off While I am sure the majority of tournament goers are pretty easy guys, giving a few bad apples the opportunity to be total jerks because of something unexpected happening because of items is not good for tourneys.
Which leds to the best anti-tournament argument, randomness and balance. Items are random and randomness can sometimes cause some serious imbalances in games. This is why you don't see people having national tournaments for flipping coins or roulett. It pointless and stupid.
However there are some games that do have random chance in them and are still competive games. These can be found in many other formats such as the table top and card game scenes. The difference lies in something I like to call "Controlled" and "Uncontrolable" probability.
A game like roulett is a game with "Uncontrolable" probability. Regardless of what you do, there is no way for you to be able to increase you chances of winning. You always have the same random chance of being a winner.
However in games like Poker, Mahjong, or Magic the Gathering. You have "Controlled" probability. By understanding how the game mechanics work in the game, one can manipulate chance to work in ones favor, negate bad luck, or even completly turn around a disadvantage to an advantage.
This leads me to the discussion at hand. If I was a betting man I am almost positive, even after trying the various mechanics out, that the major tournaments like Evo and MLG will ban all items straight up. Frankly as mentioned before I think this is perfectly justified considering the money at stake.
However I don't think this necessarly has to be universal. At small tournaments, such as side events at convetions. I think some interesting varitation of rules could be explored. Now I understand that some items are overpowered in 1 vs 1 matches, regardless of what anybody can do. I don't think all items are this overpowered. Being able to grab the sandbag that popped up next to you does not automatically stop the match and declare you the winner.
The following list is a suggested group of items to use if one wanted to try some variety at a low stakes tournament setting. They are divided into catagories based on how the item is used. If an item has a high game swinging factor, it is banned. If an item has some potential risk or needs to be properly used to gain a benfit, it is considered for play
Status effect items
Star Frankly the star is overpowered. Like many status effect items there is no risk involved, you get the item, you get an advantage. The star is the worst as one does not even need to make the effort to pick it up. If it touches you the next few secounds of the match are reduced to a game of keep away.
Spicy Curry Like the star once you get the curry you get insane damage dealing attack with no risk to your character. Another ban
Hammer/Golden Hammer This items actually has some risk to it because you are sometimes dealt a dud. Also certain character moves and stages can negate or kill a hammer wielder. Despite this it almost always leads to a stale in the match so banned as well.
Big/Small Mushrooms Risky, and the characters still needs to use regular moves to attack. However the items move around changing people very unexpectdedly. Also the big mushroom has little disadvantage. Another ban
Earthbound Badge Free reflector with no risk? You guessed it, another ban.
Metal Suit Of all the status effect items, this is really the only plausible one. Being metal has a pretty fair share of advantages and disadvantages. I would say maybe but since it doesn't really have any skill dynamic to it I would lean toward ban.
Max tomato, Food, Heart Healing really just stales the game, and anyone who gets it just gets an advantage unless ytou are at 0%, which is still good. Ban
Lightning Bolt, Clock, Screw Attack, Bunny Hood, Cloaking Device Why are all these times together? Well because I am tired of stating the obvious, they are no risk, no skill items. Blanket Ban
Shooting Items
Super Scope On one hand, a full charge shot has some insane damage. On the other other hand so does several charchters full charge shots. This one at least can't be stored and eventually runs out. Edit: Accounts of scale back firmly planting this in testing grounds
Ray GunIts got strong knock back, which may make it abusive on flat stages. Running out of ammo and a relativly slow firing speed makes this a maybe for now.Edit: Reports of dramatic buffs lead to banned until proven innocent.
Firecracker I admit, I don't know much about this item. If it is hard to aim or the projectiles are relativly tame, keep it. If they are actually strong, ban it.
Fireflower If characters stayed immobile like in melee I would have kept this item, but now that I can see people can push people along with it Im on the fence on this item as well.
Dragoon While you do need to both collect and properly aim the item to get its full use. I fear from seeing it in action that its boon is too great. Edit: Many people are argueing it is not imbalanced as previously thought so further tested is warranted for final conclusions
Melee Weapons
Homerun Bat This is the only melee weapon I know should be banned at the start. The potentially number of KO's a person can accumulate with this warrants an immediate ban.
Beam SwordI have seen Peaches pull this in no item matches and still not one. It is a great advantage but simply swing the sword around does not mean victory. Keep but watched for potential abuse
Lip Flower Either you chuck it for a little poison or swimng it for some damage. A pretty tame item, keep
Star Rod Projectile or toss weapon. Like the flower it gives a pretty nice boon but you got to know how to use it. Keep
Fan Im slightly worried you could lock people in corners like I have seen certain A moves do. I would need to now if people can DI out of it or how easy it is to lock people in for a final call. Keep for now
Exploding items
Bomb, Sticky Bomb and B-Bomb
All seem to have too dramatic an impact in KOing so they will be banned
Proxy Mine/Warp Star Edit:Requests for further testing are placing these on the fence for now
Throwing Items
Pokeball/Assit Trophies Though the effect is random, some of the characters that pop out are far to game swing to allow. Ban
Banna Peal Diddy chucks these out. Its pretty simple and equal risk/gain/ A keeper
Ice cube This item is tough to nail with and at low levels its very easy to break out of. Another keeper
Deku nut A hit or miss chucking item. Keep
Green ShellThough potentially reversable, Im afraid the knockback may be too great to warrant. Banned until proven innocent.
Soccer ball You can'y just grab this item and use it. It requires good aim to get use out of. Edit: Major gramatical error, this item can not be thrown but accounts of major KOing potentially have moved it to to the maybe catagory
Healing Orb Only warrant in team play. Though unlike other healing items, this one doesn't just give free healing. Further testing for ban or keep.
Bumper/Spike Ball/Spring These trap items are pretty obvious when set and do not dramtically swing the game in only one players favor. Plus then can potentially back fire, all keepers.
Mr. Saturn Oh yeah, getting this guy definatly means you win the game
He stays.
Sandbag Another very low impact item. In fact this may actually help balance as A pins, laser pins, and chain grabs can be interupted if this guy appears in between the two. Keep
Smoke Bomb Another very tame low impact item. Keep
Pit trap Not sure how badly someone pinned is hurt of if it can screw people up on cretain platofrm stages. A maybe toward leaning towards keep
Storage Items
Exploding Crates and other exploding containers Fool, your the reason items where banned in the first place! At least we can turn you off now Double ban
Non Explosive Containers Now free of their explosive kin, they can stay in. Also like the sand bag it can serve as an infinite lock breakers. Keep
Final Smashes I kept final smashes last because they got the most controvery over them. Unlike other items, one can simply pick it up to use, you got to make the effort to break them open. They also move around the stage, negating any advanatage popping up next to someone brings. Finally you got to use it, which is hit or miss in some cases.
I have some poeple say that only final smashes should be on, I think this is a terrible idea. As others have pointed out, if only final smashes on then people wiill pick charcters with low risk final smashes and camp for the ball to get all kills.
Now if the smash ball is intermixed with a large number of low risk items, then they show up infrequantly or not at all. This makes camping for the ball impracticle and opens the final smash for further testing. Keep in until proven guilty.
Well thats my list. Feel free to post your thoughts and if you got to the end without reading the disclaimer, please go read it
Ok first off lets get some things out of the way
1) This is not a soupbox thread. It is not trying to get you to play with items on nor is it telling you to play with items off. Most people here have got a preference firmly established and I am happy with which ever you choose.
2) This thread is not trying to dictate what should or should not be tourney rules. Tournament organizers decide that and have the right to do what they want.
3) This thread will be a long, like ridiciously long, sorry in advance.
4) I am going to be making a couple of analogies. They are not perfect but Smash is a really unique game so making decent analogies is pretty tricky. If my comparisions upset you, sorry.
5) Please try to be civil. I have already mentioned I am not trying to tell anyone what to do, I just want to get some interesting conversation going. If you are coming in solely to argue the merits of items on or off it would be probably better to not bother.
Disclaimer Over
With Brawl's release in the States on the Horizon, a lot of people are itching to see just how the competive scene will turn out and many have already started guessing what the format will be, what stages will be regulated to the banned or counter pick groups, and what characters will come out on top.
While some people are advocating just a flat transfer of Melee's format, many others(including myself) at the very least want to give everything a test run before deciding what is in and what is out. One of the biggest controversies right now is on the status of items.
For those unaware of item countroversy history of Melee( Though Im not sure there are many on this site) The short summary is a lot of arguments occured over trying to have some items in tournements or not. For a time there actual was both tournements with items on and off but after repeated testing the exploding crate factor ultimatly led to no items being the universal standard of all tournanaments, which frankly is 100% justified.
With the discovery in Brawl that exploding crates could actually be turned off the item on/off controversy has exploded back on to the scene hotter than ever.
I have seen arguments on both sides and rather than turn this into one of those threads Ill just outline the strongest argument on either side as well as my counter points.
The pro-item sides best argument is it is rather difficult to claim to be the most skilled player if one is not capable of handling every aspect of the game. The skills for throwing, counter catching, and weapon could lead to some very interesting strategies and matches as well as add some flavor to characters who have skills relating to items.
Now to be realistic even if items were on most peoples tournaments performance would be exactly the same. Perhaps one or two people would be item savaunts or hopelessly incapable of winning with them on, but the majority of high level tournament players would still be on top and the majority of low level players would still be on the bottom.
If a tournament player and a casual player had 20 matches with items on and 20 matches with items off, the tournament player will still have the large majority of the victories with only a difference of probably 1-3 matches. However in a tournament with hundreds or even thousands of dollars at stake a single match up is a huge difference! It is not only easier on the players but it is easier on the tournament organizers to have items off While I am sure the majority of tournament goers are pretty easy guys, giving a few bad apples the opportunity to be total jerks because of something unexpected happening because of items is not good for tourneys.
Which leds to the best anti-tournament argument, randomness and balance. Items are random and randomness can sometimes cause some serious imbalances in games. This is why you don't see people having national tournaments for flipping coins or roulett. It pointless and stupid.
However there are some games that do have random chance in them and are still competive games. These can be found in many other formats such as the table top and card game scenes. The difference lies in something I like to call "Controlled" and "Uncontrolable" probability.
A game like roulett is a game with "Uncontrolable" probability. Regardless of what you do, there is no way for you to be able to increase you chances of winning. You always have the same random chance of being a winner.
However in games like Poker, Mahjong, or Magic the Gathering. You have "Controlled" probability. By understanding how the game mechanics work in the game, one can manipulate chance to work in ones favor, negate bad luck, or even completly turn around a disadvantage to an advantage.
This leads me to the discussion at hand. If I was a betting man I am almost positive, even after trying the various mechanics out, that the major tournaments like Evo and MLG will ban all items straight up. Frankly as mentioned before I think this is perfectly justified considering the money at stake.
However I don't think this necessarly has to be universal. At small tournaments, such as side events at convetions. I think some interesting varitation of rules could be explored. Now I understand that some items are overpowered in 1 vs 1 matches, regardless of what anybody can do. I don't think all items are this overpowered. Being able to grab the sandbag that popped up next to you does not automatically stop the match and declare you the winner.
The following list is a suggested group of items to use if one wanted to try some variety at a low stakes tournament setting. They are divided into catagories based on how the item is used. If an item has a high game swinging factor, it is banned. If an item has some potential risk or needs to be properly used to gain a benfit, it is considered for play
Status effect items
Star Frankly the star is overpowered. Like many status effect items there is no risk involved, you get the item, you get an advantage. The star is the worst as one does not even need to make the effort to pick it up. If it touches you the next few secounds of the match are reduced to a game of keep away.
Spicy Curry Like the star once you get the curry you get insane damage dealing attack with no risk to your character. Another ban
Hammer/Golden Hammer This items actually has some risk to it because you are sometimes dealt a dud. Also certain character moves and stages can negate or kill a hammer wielder. Despite this it almost always leads to a stale in the match so banned as well.
Big/Small Mushrooms Risky, and the characters still needs to use regular moves to attack. However the items move around changing people very unexpectdedly. Also the big mushroom has little disadvantage. Another ban
Earthbound Badge Free reflector with no risk? You guessed it, another ban.
Metal Suit Of all the status effect items, this is really the only plausible one. Being metal has a pretty fair share of advantages and disadvantages. I would say maybe but since it doesn't really have any skill dynamic to it I would lean toward ban.
Max tomato, Food, Heart Healing really just stales the game, and anyone who gets it just gets an advantage unless ytou are at 0%, which is still good. Ban
Lightning Bolt, Clock, Screw Attack, Bunny Hood, Cloaking Device Why are all these times together? Well because I am tired of stating the obvious, they are no risk, no skill items. Blanket Ban
Shooting Items
Super Scope On one hand, a full charge shot has some insane damage. On the other other hand so does several charchters full charge shots. This one at least can't be stored and eventually runs out. Edit: Accounts of scale back firmly planting this in testing grounds
Ray GunIts got strong knock back, which may make it abusive on flat stages. Running out of ammo and a relativly slow firing speed makes this a maybe for now.Edit: Reports of dramatic buffs lead to banned until proven innocent.
Firecracker I admit, I don't know much about this item. If it is hard to aim or the projectiles are relativly tame, keep it. If they are actually strong, ban it.
Fireflower If characters stayed immobile like in melee I would have kept this item, but now that I can see people can push people along with it Im on the fence on this item as well.
Dragoon While you do need to both collect and properly aim the item to get its full use. I fear from seeing it in action that its boon is too great. Edit: Many people are argueing it is not imbalanced as previously thought so further tested is warranted for final conclusions
Melee Weapons
Homerun Bat This is the only melee weapon I know should be banned at the start. The potentially number of KO's a person can accumulate with this warrants an immediate ban.
Beam SwordI have seen Peaches pull this in no item matches and still not one. It is a great advantage but simply swing the sword around does not mean victory. Keep but watched for potential abuse
Lip Flower Either you chuck it for a little poison or swimng it for some damage. A pretty tame item, keep
Star Rod Projectile or toss weapon. Like the flower it gives a pretty nice boon but you got to know how to use it. Keep
Fan Im slightly worried you could lock people in corners like I have seen certain A moves do. I would need to now if people can DI out of it or how easy it is to lock people in for a final call. Keep for now
Exploding items
Bomb, Sticky Bomb and B-Bomb
All seem to have too dramatic an impact in KOing so they will be banned
Proxy Mine/Warp Star Edit:Requests for further testing are placing these on the fence for now
Throwing Items
Pokeball/Assit Trophies Though the effect is random, some of the characters that pop out are far to game swing to allow. Ban
Banna Peal Diddy chucks these out. Its pretty simple and equal risk/gain/ A keeper
Ice cube This item is tough to nail with and at low levels its very easy to break out of. Another keeper
Deku nut A hit or miss chucking item. Keep
Green ShellThough potentially reversable, Im afraid the knockback may be too great to warrant. Banned until proven innocent.
Soccer ball You can'y just grab this item and use it. It requires good aim to get use out of. Edit: Major gramatical error, this item can not be thrown but accounts of major KOing potentially have moved it to to the maybe catagory
Healing Orb Only warrant in team play. Though unlike other healing items, this one doesn't just give free healing. Further testing for ban or keep.
Bumper/Spike Ball/Spring These trap items are pretty obvious when set and do not dramtically swing the game in only one players favor. Plus then can potentially back fire, all keepers.
Mr. Saturn Oh yeah, getting this guy definatly means you win the game
He stays.Sandbag Another very low impact item. In fact this may actually help balance as A pins, laser pins, and chain grabs can be interupted if this guy appears in between the two. Keep
Smoke Bomb Another very tame low impact item. Keep
Pit trap Not sure how badly someone pinned is hurt of if it can screw people up on cretain platofrm stages. A maybe toward leaning towards keep
Storage Items
Exploding Crates and other exploding containers Fool, your the reason items where banned in the first place!
At least we can turn you off now Double banNon Explosive Containers Now free of their explosive kin, they can stay in. Also like the sand bag it can serve as an infinite lock breakers. Keep
Final Smashes I kept final smashes last because they got the most controvery over them. Unlike other items, one can simply pick it up to use, you got to make the effort to break them open. They also move around the stage, negating any advanatage popping up next to someone brings. Finally you got to use it, which is hit or miss in some cases.
I have some poeple say that only final smashes should be on, I think this is a terrible idea. As others have pointed out, if only final smashes on then people wiill pick charcters with low risk final smashes and camp for the ball to get all kills.
Now if the smash ball is intermixed with a large number of low risk items, then they show up infrequantly or not at all. This makes camping for the ball impracticle and opens the final smash for further testing. Keep in until proven guilty.
Well thats my list. Feel free to post your thoughts and if you got to the end without reading the disclaimer, please go read it
