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A return to what I loved from the N64 days.

Cornstalk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
218
Location
West Sacramento, CA
NNID
Cornstalk
I remember the simple joy of being an ignorant scrub back in the day. Playing crazy 4 way matches with friends on the awkward 64 controller. Melee rolled around and that joy was there for a while. Unlocking everything was a thrill. Roy was freakin' awsome, Game & Watch was clearly the best character because he was unlocked last. But slowly and surely something changed...

Over time and playing it became clear how absolutely terrible some of the characters where, while others were so ridiculously easy to use at the novice level. At first it mostly effected 1 on 1 fights, where characters like Marth and Falco were 'broken' and 'cheap'. Then it started to seep in to the 4 player chaos where friends I talked to online would tell me how characters like Marth were banned and they weren't allowed to play Shiek anymore.

For me it finally fizzled out in 2006 when I tried to get back in to melee. After having some people over I realized just how sick I was of fighting Marth, Falco, and Fox all the **** time. Most people in their blind quest to be the best instantly went for the 'top tier'. Even if they weren't even close to the pro level, the general speed and power of Melee's top tier was still frustrating when trying out characters like Pikachu and Ness just to try and keep some variety.


I'm just too casual for that hardcore 1 on 1 attitude. It's still fun once and a while, but the part of me that fell in love with the chaos of the game from the N64 was left with a terrible case of blueballs in melee.




Here comes Brawl. Melee habits reared their ugly head and I tried to do some 1v1 for the first month or two. Once again the same frustration came as it seemed like I was running in the same limited cast of irritating characters. I'm looking at you Ike, MK, Pit, and Wolf. :p

With the game put on the shelf to collect dust, I distracted myself with other games until something wonderful happened... a few friends got a Wii and picked up the game. They had only a limited knowledge of melee (yet even they knew how retardedly easy Marth and Falco were to use on a novice level). We started doing some 4 way FFA's, sometimes stock, sometimes Coin. Sometimes with item set ups of all kinds, sometimes none at all. Curry, giant, tiny, oddball games like snake rocket tag and Lucas/Ness PK tag. The game was suddenly fun in the way Melee never really was.


It took me a while of mulling it over until I realized what the big difference is. At the entry to veteran level, the characters are surprisingly well balanced. Over the 4th we had an 8 person game set up (2 winners rotate out), and EVERYONE used random at least half the time. There was the groan of "I'm terrible with this guy" once and a while, but that didn't seem to hamper the fun at all. They'd still get KO's, they'd still have crazy recoveries and stupid deaths. They'd even have jaw dropping moments of wtfpwnage.

Random not showing you your character until the fight actually starts is pure awsome too. No more "Ew, I hate DK *reselect* ew I hate ganon *reselect*" and so on. It surprises the heck out of me when I get someone like Sonic, who I'm completely lost on how to play, and have more fun then if I had gone with a comfort zone character like GW.


I really don't see Brawl suffering the over/under power issue that Melee had in character design for the average player. Maybe one day the tournament scene will have the same tedious top tier based match ups, but for all the people that love the game just for the sake of beloved mascots having cartoon antic free for all fights... well, I don't know if that could ever really die with how much variety there is in cast, stages, items, and oddball settings.


I miss bonus mode though, but that's just nitpicking.

Anyway, that's my long winded and mostly pointless story how Brawl actually started being fun in an oldskewl way.


P.S.

Coin matches are a great way to introduce brand new players to the series. Even if they have trouble staying alive in a 4 way, they actually get to play for the whole match without being wiped out early all the time. Plus, with how odd coin matches can go, they may even win once and a while. And winning will encourage them to get better, maybe even becoming a new buddy to do 1v1 for the folks big on that kind of thing.
 

Bluebottel

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
61
Location
Sweden
I see your point, i guess you are unlucky that have friends who dont like characters that are seriously inferiour. I myself cant stand playing bad characters just for the sake of variety.
I cant imagine playing just to... play. No multiplayer game is fun without that spark of competition, or at least a will to win.
And randomness just ticks me off, cant stand that kind of crap.
 

OmegaXXII

Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
21,468
Location
Houston, Texas!
I sure have to say I sure do miss those days when I started playing carelessly on Saffron City while playing my friends who on the other hand were pros at it an never used items while I was constanly looking for them ^_^
 

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,901
Location
Jackson, Tennessee
We had a completely airborne match on a stage made of springs and ladders.
And gravity was on low.
It was truly epic.
My Marth vs. my friend's 'unbeatable Pit'.
I destroyed his Pit later, normal match, Final Destination, no items, with Kirby.
 

rathy Aro

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,142
Here comes Brawl. Melee habits reared their ugly head and I tried to do some 1v1 for the first month or two. Once again the same frustration came as it seemed like I was running in the same limited cast of irritating characters. I'm looking at you Ike, MK, Pit, and Wsnake. :p
fixed. lol
 

smasher32

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
Messages
279
Location
New York
IMHO, I feel like the fan ruins all item gameplay. Sure I can just turn it off, but I don't play with items too often so I don't care too much about it.

Nice post though.
 

Sentey

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
45
Location
Lafayette, LA
in SSB64 you didn't have practice with someone to be good. Its just a sense of what your favorite moveset is which is why i like it. No tiers.
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
Switch FC
8132-9932-4710
I loved that old N64 controller.
Mine was gold plated (and my N64)
And yeah Brawl is sorta like N64 upgraded a little.
Still fun.
EDIT: What ever happened to board the platforms??
 

White Pikmin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 9, 2008
Messages
258
Location
Behind You
1. Falco changed this time around, his blaster makes his opponents flinch, unlike fox

2. wolff is about equal to fox, one is more powerful, and one is faster, it really depends on the opponent

3. teirs would be better if instead that meta knight could beat everyone, it would show to most likely victor of every 1-1 fight between the charaters, like this:

Sonic V.S bowser = sonic

Wario VS Sonic = wario

Wario vs bowser = bowser

(im not saying thats how they would win, its just an example)

4. I main random, too, that way i can really see prority levels against sonic and lucas (my brothers mains)

5. no offense to the mainers of the fighter who i name next, but i'd have to say that by the current amount of gameplay i had with everyone, Pokemon trainer would be lowest, but probibaly because im not use to fighting as 3 people at once, and changing stratagieys on a dime.

6. if i had to bring back one thing that isnt in brawl, id say fox's first taunt (hmmph) and rac to the finish, its a tie between the two
 

SirKibble

Smash Champion
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,400
Great post. It's so true. The game suddenly becomes so much more fun when you stop playing to win and just play. It's a game, games are supposed to be fun. That's why I love just messing around. Much, much applause to you.
 

starL33T

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
38
yeah, I get sick of ppl trying to be pro alot of the time; but 64 was the best. few characters, with even fewer stages, and you picked up and used whatever item came round, like the heart when you were on 300%, full restore. the best thing however which has changed, is how huge the stages were, like the edges, a full recovery with characters couldn't recover them, and that was so good, knowing they couldnt do anything about it, rather than in brawl especially, there is hardly any need for a 3rd recovery with the low gravity and close edges... grabbing was awesome aswell.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
I like your thinking. I really do enjoy this game just for what it is: a crazy fighting games with all your favorite Nintendo mascots (plus Sonic and Snake).
 

Tony_11

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
180
Location
BC, Canada
Yeahh...... Those were the good ole days.

having little amount of characters and having my game always mess up and erase its own data having me 2 start over countless times to unlock all the chars again and wait until it erases again.

BTW kirby pwned all in that game =P
 

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,657
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
All 3 games are equally good in their own ways. Where one is weak, another one is there to pick up the slack. They should be seen more like a team rather than a dysfunctional family.
 

WolfCypher

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
1,303
NNID
WolfCypher
Switch FC
4999 6039 1484
I remember the simple joy of being an ignorant scrub back in the day. Playing crazy 4 way matches with friends on the awkward 64 controller. Melee rolled around and that joy was there for a while. Unlocking everything was a thrill. Roy was freakin' awsome, Game & Watch was clearly the best character because he was unlocked last. But slowly and surely something changed...

Over time and playing it became clear how absolutely terrible some of the characters where, while others were so ridiculously easy to use at the novice level. At first it mostly effected 1 on 1 fights, where characters like Marth and Falco were 'broken' and 'cheap'. Then it started to seep in to the 4 player chaos where friends I talked to online would tell me how characters like Marth were banned and they weren't allowed to play Shiek anymore.

For me it finally fizzled out in 2006 when I tried to get back in to melee. After having some people over I realized just how sick I was of fighting Marth, Falco, and Fox all the **** time. Most people in their blind quest to be the best instantly went for the 'top tier'. Even if they weren't even close to the pro level, the general speed and power of Melee's top tier was still frustrating when trying out characters like Pikachu and Ness just to try and keep some variety.


I'm just too casual for that hardcore 1 on 1 attitude. It's still fun once and a while, but the part of me that fell in love with the chaos of the game from the N64 was left with a terrible case of blueballs in melee.




Here comes Brawl. Melee habits reared their ugly head and I tried to do some 1v1 for the first month or two. Once again the same frustration came as it seemed like I was running in the same limited cast of irritating characters. I'm looking at you Ike, MK, Pit, and Wolf. :p
Whaa?! Really? Out of those 4, only MK is overused...well, people think Pit is top tier, so they use him for that purpose (he's not, people, he's not...so stop picking him...), and Ike fights for his friends is popular just cause, and Wolf oozes coolness...I can see them being reoccuring characters. For me, all I ever seem to fight are MK, Falco, MK, Falco, MK, Dedede, Ike, Ike, MK, Falco, and Dedede...Snake is peppered in there from time to time, which is why, strangely, I actually prefer to fight Snake players; Snake players for me aren't too numerous.

Cornstalk said:
With the game put on the shelf to collect dust, I distracted myself with other games until something wonderful happened... a few friends got a Wii and picked up the game. They had only a limited knowledge of melee (yet even they knew how retardedly easy Marth and Falco were to use on a novice level). We started doing some 4 way FFA's, sometimes stock, sometimes Coin. Sometimes with item set ups of all kinds, sometimes none at all. Curry, giant, tiny, oddball games like snake rocket tag and Lucas/Ness PK tag. The game was suddenly fun in the way Melee never really was.


It took me a while of mulling it over until I realized what the big difference is. At the entry to veteran level, the characters are surprisingly well balanced. Over the 4th we had an 8 person game set up (2 winners rotate out), and EVERYONE used random at least half the time. There was the groan of "I'm terrible with this guy" once and a while, but that didn't seem to hamper the fun at all. They'd still get KO's, they'd still have crazy recoveries and stupid deaths. They'd even have jaw dropping moments of wtfpwnage.

Random not showing you your character until the fight actually starts is pure awsome too. No more "Ew, I hate DK *reselect* ew I hate ganon *reselect*" and so on. It surprises the heck out of me when I get someone like Sonic, who I'm completely lost on how to play, and have more fun then if I had gone with a comfort zone character like GW.


I really don't see Brawl suffering the over/under power issue that Melee had in character design for the average player. Maybe one day the tournament scene will have the same tedious top tier based match ups, but for all the people that love the game just for the sake of beloved mascots having cartoon antic free for all fights... well, I don't know if that could ever really die with how much variety there is in cast, stages, items, and oddball settings.


I miss bonus mode though, but that's just nitpicking.

Anyway, that's my long winded and mostly pointless story how Brawl actually started being fun in an oldskewl way.


P.S.

Coin matches are a great way to introduce brand new players to the series. Even if they have trouble staying alive in a 4 way, they actually get to play for the whole match without being wiped out early all the time. Plus, with how odd coin matches can go, they may even win once and a while. And winning will encourage them to get better, maybe even becoming a new buddy to do 1v1 for the folks big on that kind of thing.
Let me just say that I thought this was yet another Melee vs. Brawl topic. Thank god it's not. Reading this topic made me want to play just for playful's sake. Granted, whether I play casually or competitively, I play for my friends I play for keeps. If we play with items, I want to win...and have fun...but 2nd place is not winning. Sorry, I can have fun, but I want to win. So while playing, say, on Spear Pillar with all items on against 3 players is something I would most def. do, I'm still picking my mains if I feel like it. So, yeah, I gotta at least break even. I guess since three of my four mains are all the characters you're tired of seeing (sans Ike for my Lucario), I guess that would be our problem.
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
My group played Melee for a good three years before finding the competitive scene but we where naturally really competitive. We played with no items, stick to one main, and even though we didn't realize it we mainly play tournament accept levels

Also since we played to win we all naturally play high tier characters even though we didn't know their was tiers in the first place.

Marth
Sheik
Marth
Falco
Fox
Samus

Hmm, good times.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I find this thread insulting. I strive to be the best, and use any all tactics at my disposal to be a better player. But, I also enjoy my fair share of LOL matches. Spear Pillar is one of my fave stages. :)

P.S. I'm giving you ****. There are plenty of competitive people who enjoy playing ridiculous matches and FFAs.
 

Rigor Mortis

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
331
Location
Passaic NJ
This thread reminds me that I never knew how to do hadouken in the street fighter seriers until like 2 years ago >.> I had my share of LOLZ as a kid playing ssb64, but now i realize playing to win and abusing the games glitches is ALOT MORE fun than being a button mashing 6 year old

and yes, i enjoy melee,brawl, and ssb64 *brawl the least but hey lol at least i still try to play it*
 

Cornstalk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
218
Location
West Sacramento, CA
NNID
Cornstalk
My group played Melee for a good three years before finding the competitive scene but we where naturally really competitive. We played with no items, stick to one main, and even though we didn't realize it we mainly play tournament accept levels

Also since we played to win we all naturally play high tier characters even though we didn't know their was tiers in the first place.

Marth
Sheik
Marth
Falco
Fox
Samus

Hmm, good times.

Honestly that was the only thing that chapped my hide in Melee when it came to just screwing around and having fun. People will naturally gravitate towards the 'good' characters. Yes, I know that's HIGHLY subject to opinion, but a decent player will naturally start to pick up on characters with stronger attributes, especially the easy to use ones.

At a completely newb (barely able to Up+B to recover) level, Falco and Marth are ridiculously easy to play. Teach a player to C-stick in melee, hand them Falco, Marth, and sometimes even fox, and a decent (but lazy) player like myself will actually get nailed by the C-stick spamming more then I'd like to admit. So even someone that I had just introduced to the game, within a week, was playing Falco almost all the bloody time. The only reason he'd even play other characters was because Falco is very suicide prone, and it sucks to kill yourself a lot at low % for any player.



That still holds true to a smaller extent in Brawl. Pit projectile spammers, Metaknight tornado spammers, Wolf and Fox C-stick spammers, Ike Up+B spammers, Pike Thunder/DSmash spammers... yet all of those things are much MUCH less likely to provide easy KO's in beginner and 'fun' matches, particularly when used in excess. With the general floatiness and sharper directional and DI controls, it's also much easier to dodge them and even mind game for an opening.

And it's just icing on the cake that even the already dubbed "Bad" characters still still hold up to the so called "Best" characters at the casual player level. Heck, my buds actually groan now when I bust out "Old Man Ganon" in FFA's even if they've picked Metaknight or other fast characters that should be able to chew Ganon up and spit him out.


It just makes me warm and fuzzy to not have anything past petty nit-picking about Brawl as a source of entertainment... unlike Melee which cost me a gamecube once thanks to Falco. Lesson there... Explosive tempers are stupid and humiliating, but they make a good story. XD
 

Cloud Cleaver

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
349
Location
Central Virginia
While I usually play without items on fairly "normal" stages in the interest of skill > luck, this topic still struck a nostalgic chord. I think competition adds flare to any game, but the lengths to which "pro" players take it is truly astounding; it often goes so far as utterly breaking the game to the point that you are no longer really playing Smash Brothers (WaveDash, I'm looking at you). Sometimes it's nice to get four friends with varying skill levels, possibly use handicaps, turn those items on, and have a random match just for fun. Taking away wavedashing was a gift from Sakurai that many smashers ignore (or even resent): with this technique gone, you no longer have to play pseudo-smash to win. You can play the game as it was MEANT to be. Of course, what with all the work discovering new ATs, this probably won't last. In fact, it's probably already broken. Sometimes you just have to ask yourself: is the price one pays to stay competitive too high? Is it worth breaking the game we love so much just to win a tourney once in a while? While many of us still say "yes", it's definitely worth a ponder.
 
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