A SoNiC GuIdE -5/07/09 - Some interesting frame data

[Kinzer]

It's perfect, give them a foundation to work with, and then redirect them to specific threads to further improve in one area!

K.I.D., you're a genius!

I mean it...

wait...

God d***it I have to...

 

[da K.I.D.]

like i said my tricep is strained, so I cant pat myself on the back, so in my respect for Boxob, ill just say,
thanks, i appreciate that.
cus i dont think it was sarcasm...

 

[aeghrur]

Okay, if this becomes a GOOD official guide, some of the other stickies need to be taken down. >_>

 

[Tenki]

I have a pretty epic idea guide/sticky-wise, but I won't reveal it until these are all done and complete.

 

[Camalange]

I have a pretty epic idea guide/sticky-wise, but I won't reveal it until these are all done and complete.

Making one giant thread containing all the information we need like memphis has been wanting for like 4 months now?

 

[Kinzer]

I have a pretty epic idea guide/sticky-wise, but I won't reveal it until these are all done and complete.

Isn't like against the rules to make "placeholders" and not tell anybody else?

 

[Tenki]

^
this isn't a placeholder thread ;D

Making one giant thread containing all the information we need like memphis has been wanting for like 4 months now?

Yes, but it'll be organized in such an epic way.

 

[Camalange]

^
this isn't a placeholder thread ;D



Yes, but it'll be organized in such an epic way.

I'm excited :D

Although, I'm not expecting it anytime soon.

 

[darkNES386]

Gasp... tenki has me finding him frame data and he's going to use it to outdo my guide..... ahhhhhhhhhh ::Sonic offstage KO shout::

I'm just messing... honestly I'm not surprised. Let's face it though... we need some sort of guide. That's why Izzy posted the original and why I eventually took over.

I added most of your comments Napo. I'm just concerned about the chain-grabbing comment. Isn't it very dependent on how your opponents DI?

 

[Napilopez]

Gasp... tenki has me finding him frame data and he's going to use it to outdo my guide..... ahhhhhhhhhh ::Sonic offstage KO shout::

I'm just messing... honestly I'm not surprised. Let's face it though... we need some sort of guide. That's why Izzy posted the original and why I eventually took over.

I added most of your comments Napo. I'm just concerned about the chain-grabbing comment. Isn't it very dependent on how your opponents DI?

Thanks ^_^. Its about as DI dependent as Dthrow is IMO, so I find it to be nearly equally viable for chases. However, I should have mentioned its much more effective on heavy weights and characters with fast fall speeds(spacies). So yea, I guess you would add something like, Dthrow can also be chained on heavyweights and fast falling characters like the spacies.

 

[darkNES386]

My take is this... uthrow/bthrow are best against heavy characters at low percents. Mid percent range fthrow and dthrow keep your opponent close enough to tech chase or whatever you want to call it for fthrow. The problem with down throw is that some floaty characters (or maybe it's just really good DI players) can really get out of it and prevent themselves from ending up on the ground. Sonic's speed though makes it much more viable in my opinion then bthrow/uthrow.

I tend to use bthrow
-when I want to throw my opponent offstage
-when they're at really high percentages on a smaller stage (and we're on an edge)
*I should start experimenting more at lower percents I guess

.... other opinions are welcomed as always

 

[Napilopez]

My take is this... uthrow/bthrow are best against heavy characters at low percents. Mid percent range fthrow and dthrow keep your opponent close enough to tech chase or whatever you want to call it for fthrow. The problem with down throw is that some floaty characters (or maybe it's just really good DI players) can really get out of it and prevent themselves from ending up on the ground. Sonic's speed though makes it much more viable in my opinion then bthrow/uthrow.

I tend to use bthrow
-when I want to throw my opponent offstage
-when they're at really high percentages on a smaller stage (and we're on an edge)
*I should start experimenting more at lower percents I guess

.... other opinions are welcomed as always

Good input.

And lol, yea, just try it against fox, lolzz.

 

[Tenki]

Gasp... tenki has me finding him frame data and he's going to use it to outdo my guide..... ahhhhhhhhhh ::Sonic offstage KO shout::

lol don't worry. Your guide will still be your guide, I'm not replacing anything XD


PS. When you find frame data, can you record it in "complete form" like hotgarbage's? XD

 

[darkNES386]

lol don't worry. Your guide will still be your guide, I'm not replacing anything XD


PS. When you find frame data, can you record it in "complete form" like hotgarbage's? XD

Do you mean little animations with counts?

 

[Tenki]

Do you mean little animations with counts?

like,

[Spin Dash (Side-B)]
Charge
Frame data:
1-7 startup
8 can cancel into VSDJ/shield cancel
9-129 charge

Frame summary:
Startup: 7 frames
Cancellable on frame: 8 (VSDJ/DJ/Shield)

[F-smash] (I made up the numbers lol, let's say it lasts 34 frames)
Frame data:
1-8 startup
9 chargeable
10-13 release
14-17 hitbox out
18-34

Frame summary
Duration: 34 frames
Startup: 9 frames (last frame chargeable)
Release: 4 frames
Hits on frame: 14
Cooldown: 17
(optional)
Shield stun: 6

 

[darkNES386]

Yeah of course... example:
Jump to freefall – 43
*Regardless of short hop or full jump…
-Sonic leaves ground after 5
-initial jump before going into ball is 4
-stays in ball for 27
- out of ball and into free fall – 7 frames

From start of jump animation:
shorthop length (no fastfall) – lands in 45 frames (2 frames of free fall) <--- This way I can see if it's possible to get less than 2 frames

shorthop (fastfall ASAP) - you can omit startup/landing lag, but whatever you do, specify it please xD – 50 frames till shield

So actually the fast falling the short appears to be 5 frames slower. Of course I need to make sure I was consistent with my heights.

 

[Napilopez]

Hmm..thats quite interesting.

I'm guessing SHFF Uair would be quickest to shield because it autocancels perfectly :D

 

[Jim Morrison]

All in favour of me making my ledge play thread which will probably fail like a Chis thread

EDIT: Where the hell is he?

 

[infomon]

he's still banned

 

[da K.I.D.]

rofl
people need to stop being dumb

 

[Jim Morrison]

Explanation?

 

[da K.I.D.]

he was being dumb, so he got banned,

people need to stop being dumb so they dont get banned

 

[Napilopez]

he was being dumb, so he got banned,

people need to stop being dumb so they dont get banned

These are words of extreme wisdom.

 

[darkNES386]

All in favour of me making my ledge play thread

You want to make a thread about Sonic's edge game?

 

[Chis]

All in favour of me making my ledge play thread which will probably fail like a Chis thread

EDIT: Where the hell is he?

You're too...

he was being dumb, so he got banned,

people need to stop being dumb so they dont get banned

These are words of extreme failure.

Fixed. Kid stop being dumb and talking about things that you don't know. People making assumptions without know what the hell they're talking about starts wars and get people killed.

Don't do it.

Post +1

More importantly, I like where this thread is going NES386.

 

[Jim Morrison]

You want to make a thread about Sonic's edge game?

yas i do indeed

 

[SonicX580]

Sounds good to me making that thread also about his edge game also Gf2tw it's spelled "Yes" not "Yas".

 

[da K.I.D.]

i know what im talking about, it happened to me too.

i was being dumb so i got banned...

i stopped being dumb, so i dont get banned anymore.

simple

 

[Browny]

so... any update on this frame data stuff. ive been wondering for a long time if my numbers are accurate lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

you are still like the only one that can test...

 

[Tenki]

so... any update on this frame data stuff. ive been wondering for a long time if my numbers are accurate lol

lol i've been wondering about that too


@KID/everyone else who's waiting for frame data:
This week should be the end of finals week for alot of people who are in college, so.. yeah ;o

 

[da K.I.D.]

just in case, for the people that only read stickeys.

go read my new thread.

 

[Chis]

Nes, have you done those gif's yet?

 

[darkNES386]

This week should be the end of finals week for alot of people who are in college, so.. yeah ;o

What he said

 

[Browny]

So i got some new stuff i feel like working on...
Determining hitboxes of attacks (I am aware i have no life, btw)

This might take a while, but since it doesnt look like a debug mode is going to be found, ill just work with screenshots instead. By finding the absolute maximum possible range on each attack, i took as small as possible step forwards and took the screenshot to find each attacks hitbox from in front, behind, above and below. hopefully enough to draw a boundary around the entire thing. A lot more work went into this than you may realise :O

Heres a few examples of what i mean. ive taken all the pics i need, but overlapping them etc will take some time.

Bairs hitbox, behind sonic (not sourspot, the full knockback version as the sourspot is a result of the lingering attack, not the range)

You know how the final hit of fair has a lot of knockback, but it acts like a tipper? this is its range (taken like, 1 frame before the sandbag took the hit lol)

Everyone loves Uair

Usmash's Reverse range

Do you guys think its worth me going all the way with this little project? Getting all the screenshots i needed took like 2 hours i dont really want that to be a waste And to think... i delayed signing up on this forum, and banned myself from here once to not let me become a tourneyf@g and be addicted to brawl. LMAO

 

[Camalange]

I like the idea, but maybe not testing on sandbag :/

I always thought Sandbag had a really big hitbox that made moves look more disjointed then they really are...I might be wrong on that though.

 

[Browny]

Yeah i initially tried vs characters but thier idle animations make it so difficult since theyre always moving. its really annoying spacing an attack perfectly such that it sparks, but then sometimes it hits the enemy away when i try to screenshot it as they move. however even though sandbag does seem to have some sort of invisible hurtbox, its the distance to the sparks that I'm measuring. its really easy on ground attacks to get them to spark so im quite sure those pics are accurate. And you can see pretty clearly on the bair where the attack hit. the only things that are difficult is the uair and final hit of fair.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats good shiat son.

i want to see all of this and i think its 110% worth going all the way for.

i didnt even know f-air was that disjointed.

 

[Browny]

its only the final hit that has that much range, for the rest of the attack it extends maybe 1/3 that distance

 

[infomon]

djbrowny is awesome

I also worry about sandbags being a disjointed hurtbox (lmao), but it's really the only way. We could use some other characters vs. sandbag as well to get a fair comparison.