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Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game
- Thread starter Gandhi Jam
- Start date
CnB | Chandy
Smash Journeyman
That's fine, I'll just do it myself.
(animation title) - (number of elapsed frames)
#1: Ledge Cancel Teleport SUNC
Dash - 2
Kneebend - 4
<Teleport> - 33
FallSpecial - 2
WalkFast - 3
Fall - 4
<Teleport> - 12
CliffCatch - 1
TOTAL: 61 Frames
#2: Dash Perfect Wavedash SUNC:
Dash - 16
Kneebend - 4
LandingFallSpecial - 10
Wait - 3
Dash - 18
Fall - 2
<Teleport> - 9
CliffCatch - 1
TOTAL: 63 Frames
#3: Dash Pivot Wavedash Fastfall
Dash - 6
Kneebend - 4
LandingFallSpecial - 10
Wait - 3
Dash - 7
Kneebend - 4
LandingFallSpecial - 10
Wait - 3
Fall - 7
CliffCatch - 1
TOTAL: 55 Frames
(animation title) - (number of elapsed frames)
#1: Ledge Cancel Teleport SUNC
Dash - 2
Kneebend - 4
<Teleport> - 33
FallSpecial - 2
WalkFast - 3
Fall - 4
<Teleport> - 12
CliffCatch - 1
TOTAL: 61 Frames
#2: Dash Perfect Wavedash SUNC:
Dash - 16
Kneebend - 4
LandingFallSpecial - 10
Wait - 3
Dash - 18
Fall - 2
<Teleport> - 9
CliffCatch - 1
TOTAL: 63 Frames
#3: Dash Pivot Wavedash Fastfall
Dash - 6
Kneebend - 4
LandingFallSpecial - 10
Wait - 3
Dash - 7
Kneebend - 4
LandingFallSpecial - 10
Wait - 3
Fall - 7
CliffCatch - 1
TOTAL: 55 Frames
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I think we should all take a new look at nair. A couple weeks back I started practicing nair so that I would know what direction they would be knocked in on the final hit and while it can be ambiguous to spot most of the time it's fairly easy to do so. Being able to nair into grab followups is pretty amazing, and it's led to me actually using nair with the intent to attack with the last hitbox against players now (something that just felt natural after my downtime). It seems way more effective than it should be, probably due to the hitbox being much larger than people expect. Like I've said before too, final hit nair as an edge-guard is devastatingly good due to it sending opponents at a downward angle. Against Fox and Falco it's pretty much a guaranteed KO at almost any percent if they get hit with that offstage.
Speaking of Fox and Falco, that downward angle is also effective in combos. This is untested in a real match, but if you get a grab at low percent, an upthrow > fair > nair is possible to combo depending on DI. If they are hit off the stage with that they will fund themselves quite low underneath the stage, a lot more than I expected. It's situational and highly dependent on DI, but it's very likely to end in a KO if you edgeguard and might even would set up for a final hit nair edgeguard. Also, if they don't DI the way you want you still have access to traditional upthrow > fair shenanigans, so the trade off isn't that bad at all.
In general, nair has always been a move that can intercept a ton of things, racked up damage, and in general was just super annoying to opponents. Now, I think it can be used to control your opponent as knowing which direction they will be knocked back allows you the chance to put yourself in a strong position to follow up, and really just give you a ****load of momentum. It's fairly low risk and the reward is quite high. Compared to M2's other neutral tools, nair might be the best one, at least it's damned good in so many situations.
Speaking of Fox and Falco, that downward angle is also effective in combos. This is untested in a real match, but if you get a grab at low percent, an upthrow > fair > nair is possible to combo depending on DI. If they are hit off the stage with that they will fund themselves quite low underneath the stage, a lot more than I expected. It's situational and highly dependent on DI, but it's very likely to end in a KO if you edgeguard and might even would set up for a final hit nair edgeguard. Also, if they don't DI the way you want you still have access to traditional upthrow > fair shenanigans, so the trade off isn't that bad at all.
In general, nair has always been a move that can intercept a ton of things, racked up damage, and in general was just super annoying to opponents. Now, I think it can be used to control your opponent as knowing which direction they will be knocked back allows you the chance to put yourself in a strong position to follow up, and really just give you a ****load of momentum. It's fairly low risk and the reward is quite high. Compared to M2's other neutral tools, nair might be the best one, at least it's damned good in so many situations.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
It's mostly for covering those hard to hit followups or if they are in an ideal position when I refer to the upthrow > fair > nair. Also my testing on that has just been with 20XX. Pretty much every time I do that sequence the trajectory is pretty terrible and seems to put them in a really bad position, but this is at low percent. It's my guess that there is a high chance that if you catch an opponent with that they will more than likely not DI in an ideal manner, especially since this is so niche in the first place.
While it's very possible for players to SDI to choose which side they end up on with nair, how many people would actually do that, really? Then you have to think of the fact that there are a lot of ambiguous positions where it's hard to tell where they will pop, and I guarantee you they will be worse at distinguishing this than a trained Mewtwo player. Most players wouldn't SDI at all, and even at high level play people wouldn't have the presence of mind to do this all the time. For now in the current meta it would work well in competitive play.
While it's very possible for players to SDI to choose which side they end up on with nair, how many people would actually do that, really? Then you have to think of the fact that there are a lot of ambiguous positions where it's hard to tell where they will pop, and I guarantee you they will be worse at distinguishing this than a trained Mewtwo player. Most players wouldn't SDI at all, and even at high level play people wouldn't have the presence of mind to do this all the time. For now in the current meta it would work well in competitive play.
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if we are worrying about people ASDI that means we already made it
i am not assuming any low, mid, or even, high level player will try to actually SDI all the hits of nair... only top players would do that probably
unless you can get an edge guard out of it, i dont see how fair>nair would be better than fair>fair or fair>uair or pretty much everything else
i am not assuming any low, mid, or even, high level player will try to actually SDI all the hits of nair... only top players would do that probably
unless you can get an edge guard out of it, i dont see how fair>nair would be better than fair>fair or fair>uair or pretty much everything else
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
It puts Fox and Falco pretty low under the stage. If you take the ledge then you force the spacey into a bad situation.
Wreckarooni
Smash Apprentice
One of the only things that make me believe that M2 has potential is his wholly unique movement and air dodge. He's one of the only character that can reset himself to center stage without contest from almost anywhere. So in essence because of his teleport, air dodge, and ability to evade great distances in the air he can control the stage and pace (in the hands of a great player) no matter what his current position.
This also leaves him open to many mind game options and tricky movement/approaches, some that can beat reaction time (that haven't been explored) while creating true 50/50 mixups. Some with even more ambiguity than 50/50.
For instance one thing I've been experimenting with is SH FF options in neutral in all variations toward opponent, in place, backwards. Sometimes with no FF and with varying timing.
You have a lot of choices before you hit the ground -
1. WLing into anything, this is so fast like Luigi's grounded WD that WL into Dtilt, Utilt and grab are near un-reactable. SH back FF WL forward is a tricky approach and distance can be varied.
2. Something that I'm more excited right now about is teleporting sideways just before landing from a SH, the timing seems easier to get a NIL teleport. On reappear it beats reaction time and can't really be read since you could just be teleporting in place, backwards, or they may think the start up looks like an air dodge. This can leave in a spot to punish a possible whiff or it will put you right in their face and you can go on the offense before they react. And If nothing else it can be a fast option to reset to center stage if they don't expect it.
3. Of course empty Land into D-tilt, Grab, reverse NS, Utilt, shield, etc.
4. Something more experimental is using M2's Air dodge like a triangle jump or doing it in place and using it to go straight down. It's the hardest to hit on start up and invincible and invisible during most of it's animation, could bait out or avoid an approach and allow a punish. Quick enough to be hard to read on reaction if peppered in.
This also leaves him open to many mind game options and tricky movement/approaches, some that can beat reaction time (that haven't been explored) while creating true 50/50 mixups. Some with even more ambiguity than 50/50.
For instance one thing I've been experimenting with is SH FF options in neutral in all variations toward opponent, in place, backwards. Sometimes with no FF and with varying timing.
You have a lot of choices before you hit the ground -
1. WLing into anything, this is so fast like Luigi's grounded WD that WL into Dtilt, Utilt and grab are near un-reactable. SH back FF WL forward is a tricky approach and distance can be varied.
2. Something that I'm more excited right now about is teleporting sideways just before landing from a SH, the timing seems easier to get a NIL teleport. On reappear it beats reaction time and can't really be read since you could just be teleporting in place, backwards, or they may think the start up looks like an air dodge. This can leave in a spot to punish a possible whiff or it will put you right in their face and you can go on the offense before they react. And If nothing else it can be a fast option to reset to center stage if they don't expect it.
3. Of course empty Land into D-tilt, Grab, reverse NS, Utilt, shield, etc.
4. Something more experimental is using M2's Air dodge like a triangle jump or doing it in place and using it to go straight down. It's the hardest to hit on start up and invincible and invisible during most of it's animation, could bait out or avoid an approach and allow a punish. Quick enough to be hard to read on reaction if peppered in.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Wreckarooni
I don't think it's quite as good as you think, but it definitely is something to think about. One thing you didn't mention that you can do from a short hop is slingshot backwards or forward with an aerial. I used to do this every now and then against players who loved to rush in; however, I stopped doing it because I've switched from being primarily defense oriented to being the aggressor in most cases.
Actually, the being aggressive thing is partially why I feel that using what you mentioned isn't as good as you would think. While not necessarily true for all situations, what you are describing sounds more like a defense oriented style of approach, in that you are keeping your opponent at specific distances and coming in when you feel it's safe to do so with varied actions. What I have found to be the case more and more is that Mewtwo loses if he is forced to be defensive, especially against Fox and Falco. The reason for this is because usually defensive play is a very reactive style of play, and in order to play that way, you give up the initiative. If you give up the initiative to a player (or character) that has a strong pressure game, you'll find yourself being forced to turtle up, and it kinda spirals out of control.
Still, I'll try exploring this angle when I can, because situationally it would probably be a pretty neat mix-up. Honestly, it's not terribly different from things that I do already, it's just that you are throwing other options into the mix as well. I've had success with mixing up air dodges and teleports against players that know the teleport spacing and begin to punish me, as well as using empty short hops to bait an opponent that I feel wants to rush in on me. It's quite effective.
Mewtwo's wavelanding is also damned amazing, so yeah, that would be a really good tool to press forward with and is worth learning.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Sounds like an amazing find, as this will simplify the followups on a lot of characters, and force your opponent into a lose/lose situation every single time. The icing on the cake is that you accomplish this with the simplest of inputs. I will work on this when I have the time.
Another thing to note is that strong dtilt > uair seems to connect on Marth extremely well. Saw a vid with Zoma doing this after virtually every dtilt he lands. Seems quite legit for that matchup.
Another thing to note is that strong dtilt > uair seems to connect on Marth extremely well. Saw a vid with Zoma doing this after virtually every dtilt he lands. Seems quite legit for that matchup.
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BeldorTN
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2015
- Messages
- 21
Might or might not be useful, but you can teleport OOS by jumping OOS and cancelling the jump squat. Invincibility frames starting at frame 8.
the "stuttering" after 9 seconds isn't real stutter, it's me going through it frame by frame in Developer mode.
the "stuttering" after 9 seconds isn't real stutter, it's me going through it frame by frame in Developer mode.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Oh, it's useful. You just have to make sure that you have a reasonable destination for your teleport. Now I'm not sure if the aerial teleport has better landing properties than the grounded one. I feel like it does; maybe someone can confirm this.
Another useful thing to note is that you can teleport out of shield when on a platform down toward the ground. Basically a poor man's shield drop.
Another useful thing to note is that you can teleport out of shield when on a platform down toward the ground. Basically a poor man's shield drop.
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LoneCubone
Smash Rookie
Hey guys I have been wanting to post this for a while but i found out that mewtwo can waveland his backair out of a short hop. It's quite easy with a 7 frame window (assuming you get the bair out on the first frame in the air). It is preformed by using back air as soon as you jump then air dodging before you hit the ground. Given the MASSIVE distances you can get out of his wave land this makes bair a pretty safe poke and if you could control the waveland distance really well it could be a combo tool. Also I didn't bother to read this whole thread before making this post so i'm not sure if you guys know this already... but if you didn't feel free to ask me questions about it
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The problem with bair is that the range is worse than it appears, and it extends your hurtbox, meaning the disjoint is also not very good. If you rely on bair in neutral, you will find yourself trading hits a lot, and bair is a lot weaker than the average move your opponent uses in neutral, meaning you will be losing most of your trades. Bair is also extremely susceptible to crouch cancel.
LoneCubone
Smash Rookie
but after using it you can waveland back so they cant punish if they crouch canceled (and i am also aware it trades with like everything just wanted to point out that it could be an option)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
CC allows the crouch canceller to attack very fast after taking the hit. They would have time to hit you with almost any move before your waveland happened.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Quick question: I'm not sure if Toph was trolling, but he posted this on twitter: https://twitter.com/toph_bbq/status/769981705847439364
Does Mewtwo's nair actually beat crouch cancelling? I've always assumed it would suck vs cc. But I don't have the equipment to test right now.
Does Mewtwo's nair actually beat crouch cancelling? I've always assumed it would suck vs cc. But I don't have the equipment to test right now.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I thought so too.
Thanks for the data on the nair properties. That actually changes a lot of my perspective of the character.
Thanks for the data on the nair properties. That actually changes a lot of my perspective of the character.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I'm beginning to think the Samus v M2 is not as bad as most people originally thought, but yeah some things about that tweet:
Nair can punish CC, but if that last hit doesn't hit them just right they can CC that for some reason.
Only fully charged shadowballs go through missiles. Baby shadowballs don't even break missiles.
Grab does kill quite early, and bthrow to off-stage edgeguard is very possibly a kill too.
Nair can punish CC, but if that last hit doesn't hit them just right they can CC that for some reason.
Only fully charged shadowballs go through missiles. Baby shadowballs don't even break missiles.
Grab does kill quite early, and bthrow to off-stage edgeguard is very possibly a kill too.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
How viable is using confusion to reflect missiles?
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Oh d-tilt causes Mewtwo to shift his body in the z-axis? Do you have details on what frames and which part of his hurtbox this applies to?
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Maybe light-shield-power-shields on missiles?
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah, nair, fair, and uair all are pretty useful moves to throw out depending on the opponent's positioning. Fair is definitely a great move for whiff punishing.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You can uair people from underneath battlefield's ledge. Although I'd imagine just pulling them down to the abyss with confusion is generally preferred.