Aerial Canceling

[Conda]

and regardless of how the mechanics work, bottom line is theres a way to be FASTER in this game, an actual strategy to get attacks out quicker and make the game more competitive. thats the point im trying to make here.

I'm not sure why you guys keep saying faster = competitive.
Chess must be one of the least competitive games of all time, amiright?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

How the hell is what G-regulate posted forcing the scene?

He's exposing something that MOST people here didn't even know.

You'd be surprised at how long something like this would take for people to realize and utilize effectively. G just set out the blue prints.

Now when I get brawl saturday I will know this is something that will be a huge part of competitive play instead of walking into it relatively blind folded(with the exception of common sense, videos, theory) and just chillin..."not forcing the scene".

Good **** for real G-reg.

Did you read my second post? I said that this was definitely a good thing, and to not get me wrong from my first post, but if we keep on looking for the new L-cancelling we might take longer to develop other more important techniques that we didn't even think of in Melee because they simply weren't possible with the engine.

Also, while this is good to know, all this really is just a suggestion that you finish aerial moves before you land and use low-lag aerial moves. We haven't discovered anything as useful as cancelling the lag from Link's dair by landing at a certain point because that kind of thing won't happen as has already been stated.

Basically, I will use this information, but it isn't a new tech, it's just "finish the aerial before you land". Until we see proof that certain high-lag aerials can have their lag cancelled by landing at a certain point mid-move, all this shows is that some moves have less landing lag and all moves don't give lag if you finish them before you land. The problem is, too much focus on finding techniques like this that aren't really THAT useful, just more standard information, will pull the focus away on experimenting with the new physics that put high focus on momentum and the interesting shield mechanics, which I think will yield real results (more than they already have).

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Actually, most people who have had the import already know this and still think the game is bad.

How many people think the game is bad? The negativity is ridiculous - I don't want to be overly positive, but I haven't heard many people saying the game is BAD.

 

[SynikaL]

How many people think the game is bad? The negativity is ridiculous - I don't want to be overly positive, but I haven't heard many people saying the game is BAD.

Talk to people that don't have an unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo.


-Syn

 

[hippochinfat!!]

This seems harder then l-cancelling

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Talk to people that don't have an unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo.


-Syn

Please delete internet from your computer and stick to solitare.

kthxbye

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Talk to people that don't have an unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo.


-Syn

I've seen good matches already on Youtube, I didn't realize that "people that don't have an unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo" actually means "people who can't break away from Melee".

Just because you don't like what you've seen doesn't mean "NINTENDO FANBOY IF U LIKE IT".

 

[Conda]

Talk to people that don't have an unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo.


-Syn

Oh grow up.

 

[VersatileBJN]

I've seen good matches already on Youtube, I didn't realize that "people that don't have an unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo" actually means "people who can't break away from Melee".

Just because you don't like what you've seen doesn't mean "NINTENDO FANBOY IF U LIKE IT".

Quoted For Truth

and by the way circle, I don't think anything I said was directed towards you. It was directed to the guy with the ZSS avatar.

You know what's up playa I ain't hatin.

 

[g-regulate]

stop arguing about off topic things

 

[VersatileBJN]

Oh, and I never said it was a new technique, and I don't recall G-reg saying that either.

 

[Takeshi245]

I remember reading about this once. At least you mentioned it again. Thanks once again, g-regulate. Do you still Captain Falcon even with his changes?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Then I guess the only person in this thread who I have any problem with is SynikaL.

Anyways, as far as characters with no/little to no landing lag on their aerial moves go, how much do you think that will affect their usability? Like, Samus - does this mean Samus = zomg top tier?

 

[VersatileBJN]

True story. How you feeling about C.Falcon in this one G-reg?

Since you wanna keep it on topic, do you feel applying aerial canceling to his game makes him more solid?

The thing I'm worried about with C.Falcon in this game is how he is supposed to approach to initiate damage. As far as I can tell his priority isn't that high and his range limited. A lot of people said he feels like a Melee character in Brawl and that the developers really didn't seem to put in time to "brawlify" him. No dash dance is a killer to me as well. Never played Melee at a high level, but that was something I used a lot with him.

Also with ACing, are you sure it makes combos such as sh-nair into uptilt with snake inescapeable. I know in brawl characters recover from stun very quickly and can air dodge.

 

[S2]

This will probably be quite important to tournament play.

Yeah, no one is claiming that this is a new technique. Its simply being pointed out/reiterated that landing lag can be reduced in certain situations.

 

[SynikaL]

Then I guess the only person in this thread who I have any problem with is SynikaL.

Guy, calm the fvck down. I was barely half serious and it's obvious you're looking for a fight -- there's a tree in Brooklyn with your name on it, I can assure your bark has no bite here.


-Syn

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Guy, calm the fvck down. I was barely half serious and it's obvious you're looking for a fight -- there's a tree in Brooklyn with your name on it, I can assure your bark has no bite here.


-Syn

I'm looking for a fight? I'm pretty sure going on a Brawl forum filled with people anticipating Brawl and then saying that the game is bad is just about the definition of trolling, and then when I call you out on it you respond back with a "calm the **** down" and then an insult.

And it seems that I'M the one looking for a fight.

 

[aho43]

this is in response to SynikaL and to this:

Actually, most people who have had the import already know this and still think the game is bad.

Fastest, i'd say you're wrong.

im pretty good in melee, and ive logged a bunch of brawl hours these past 2 weeks. i think it is awesome and to me it is obvious that it will be competitive. the "you didn't know what you were doing in melee" idiom doesn't apply to me, because, well, i did, and im ****ing good. also I dont have an "unfettered love affair for all things Nintendo." MD/VA + TA = amazing. moving on. i can't say for all the people in my area, but the people ive shared the game w/ Fonz, EGY5, G-regulate, and a few others seem to think it is pretty awesome. the game is definitely slower, but the majority of the melee players ive talked to seem to like the game quite a bit.

Here are the arguments I've heard for why Brawl isn't competitive, there are more mind you, but these are the ones that come to the top of my mind, and my rebuttals:

Game is slow: its fast enough, honestly. you get used to the speed in a few matches. if you don't, id say you have a slow learning curve

Lack of l-cancelling: every character has a few moves that don't lag and that you can use safely from the ground. Everyone also has fairly floaty physics so its easy to space yourself.

Lack of combos: the combos aren't the same, and they aren't as long, but they're there. Some of them are pseudo combos like falcon uair chains.

Difficulty in control: if you've had the game 2 weeks and still can't control your character, read up on the buffering system. most of the people ive seen in my area play can do some awesome stuff now.

Game is campy: learn to use airdodge. airdodge buffers into lag free landing. that = easy tool to avoid projectiles.

--------------------------

at chu's biweekly the past weekend the top 4 were in a field of 30, this a brawl tourney mind you:

1. azen 2.m2k 3.vidjo 4. chillin

the best players are still the best, there might be an influx of new talent because brawl will be more popular than melee, but the best players will still win. there isn't gonna be some flukey stuff happening all the time. reliance on "quick" tech skill won't be as important, but being able to have full control of your character and having really good timing and spacing is still crucial. if you honestly don't think brawl will be competitive just leave the scene and get left in the dust. we'll all be having loads of fun w/o you.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Could you explain the buffering system? How are characters hard to control?

 

[VersatileBJN]

Man. The truth. It's so bright it's hurting my eyes.

 

[SynikaL]

I'm looking for a fight? I'm pretty sure going on a Brawl forum filled with people anticipating Brawl and then saying that the game is bad is just about the definition of trolling, and then when I call you out on it you respond back with a "calm the **** down" and then an insult.

And it seems that I'M the one looking for a fight.

This is more than just a "Brawl Forum" and had you actually been here for more than a few weeks you'd know that. This is an environment created to foster discussion of all facets of the game good and bad. If you'd like to embed yourself within the idiotic majority of internet forum users - "OMG your opinion differs from mines? You're a STOOPID TROLL!" -- then be my guest, you're making a great case for yourself.

Brawl hasn't fractured the community without dissenters providing clear reason. If you feel otherwise, you need to pay more attention.

-Kimosabae

 

[aho43]

For pretty much everything in the game, you can input commands sligtly before the lag of whatever you were doing ends. So for example lets say you roll. If you roll back and hold back, and don't let go early enough, the game receives your input of holding back and when the roll ends, you'll turn around, because the buffering system reads this as "turn around." So you need to let go of back earlier. Likewise, if you DO want to turn around after your roll to do like, a reverse utilt, you utilize this aspect to do that. You can do likewise w/ aerials, smashes, tilts, airdodges. When i first played i noticed i kept turning around when i would land from my jump, this was like, my example w/ the roll, i was holding back to space myself. So as I held back when i landed, the game reads this as "turn around" and does it as soon as the landing lag is over. To remedy this you just have to recenter the stick before you land or press forward a little bit before you land. Once you play the game you'll notice stuff like this all over the place. And if you have played the game, it explains why you do stuff you don't want to do sometimes, except for tripping. -_-'

 

[VersatileBJN]

To Synikal

^ You're just looking for a fight, though.

Everything positive ever brought up about the game's actual gameplay you shoot down even when it has merit like this.

Sure it's open to all sorts of opinions and such, but do you really have nothing better to do than trash(and apparently CONTINUE to play) a game you have such disdain for?

It's almost like you're trying to get people on your side to hate the game. It really isn't going to work with so many high level players competing in it already and having loads of fun.

Sheeet, I'm having fun watching brawl videos and I haven't even gotten my hand son the dam game yet.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

This is more than just a "Brawl Forum" and had you actually been here for more than a few weeks you'd know that. This is an environment created to foster discussion of all facets of the game good and bad. If you'd like to embed yourself within the idiotic majority of internet forum users - "OMG your opinion differs from mines? You're a STOOPID TROLL!" -- then be my guest, you're making a great case for yourself.

Brawl hasn't fractured the community without dissenters providing clear reason. If you feel otherwise, you need to pay more attention.

-Kimosabae

Sorry, you're correct - I shouldn't have made that age-old argument, it's a bad one.
But you still made a stupid inflammatory comment - *olol* lots of people who like Brawl have a Nintedno fetish! I mean, I've seen their reasons and I partially agree with some of them - harder to pull off combos aren't necessarily a good thing, I don't think, and the removal of L-cancelling didn't help matters (despite some people trumpeting the return of BALANCE and NO GLICHTHES), but you're the one who basically told me that whoever I've spoken to who has liked Brawl is a drooling Nintendo fanboy. How's that for "OMG your opinion differs from mines? You're a STOOPID TROLL!" ?

 

[SynikaL]

To Synikal

^ You're just looking for a fight, though.

Everything positive ever brought up about the game's actual gameplay you shoot down even when it has merit like this

Sure it's open to all sorts of opinions and such, but do you really have nothing better to do than trash(and apparently CONTINUE to play) a game you have such disdain for?

It's almost like you're trying to get people on your side to hate the game. It really isn't going to work with so many high level players competing in it already and having loads of fun.

Sheeet, I'm having fun watching brawl videos and I haven't even gotten my hand son the dam game yet.

I figured people would eventually attempt to peg me as "That Guy", which is why I often openly avoid "Melee vs. Brawl" discussions. I have no "disdain" for Brawl, you're only drawing these inferences through your misconceptions of the direct nature of my posts. I actually think Brawl is a d@mn fine game, I just think it's horrible as a 1v1 competitive fighting game. But that's for my own tastes and have stated that time and time again. Even so, I continue to play the game simply because it's new and Brawl is what my friends are playing. Well, that and I've played and loved Melee for 7 years, so I feel I owe it to myself to give Brawl a proper chance. Hopefully, something comes up later that adds new and interesting dimensions for me, but I doubt it.

You see my posts as "shooting opinions down", when I'm merely trying to apply some much needed perspective and pragmatism to a very insular community. I've been around fighting game communities a long time, I've seen scenes develop and I generally know how fighting games work, so I often have an opinion on many things Smashboarders tend to get excited about.

Don't try and make me out to be Yuna -- I'm not some evangelist trying to get people to hate Brawl.

-Kimo

 

[VersatileBJN]

Ok cool, Synikal.

G-reg where you at son

 

[Ndot]

I'm guessing you can't really fast fall your short hop aerials because then that would make your aerial land before it finishes in the air and that will result in landing lag. So would this technique really make aerials faster without the fastfalling? What can you say about that Greg?

 

[Blatherskite]

You can still fastfall aerials, I think, since some of them have nearly 0 lag on them as it is.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Don't try and make me out to be Yuna -- I'm not some evangelist trying to get people to hate Brawl.

Haha. In your defense, your opinions are usually logical and substantive. In defense of the people ragging on you, when it comes to Brawl you ARE about negative as it gets, at least this side of Yuna and Mew2King.

Also your insistence on "signing" every post is silly and unnecessary.

 

[Mambo]

Useful cancleable moves should be in every character guide.

 

[SynikaL]

Also your insistence on "signing" every post is silly and unnecessary.

It's "silly and unnecessary" if you have no inkling as to its purpose. As I've stated, I've been a part of other Fighting Game Communities. As such, people know me by different screen names. I sign my posts in an attempt to keep my identity ubiquitous throughout the various communities.

"Silly and unnecessary"? Man, even if there wasn't a specific purpose behind the idiosyncrasies of my posting style, that would be a pompous and veritably random criticism. The hypocrisy in that line is mystifying.

Don't strike yourself from my very short list of reasonable Brawl Discussion posters. That line reeks of self-satisfaction.

-Kimosabae

 

[Fonz]

To be fair, that big ole sig box could serve your purpose =P

 

[SynikaL]

But then I'd have no space for my amazing sig :/

Seriously though...criticizing such an innocuous detail would be like meeting me in person and saying "Kimo, I think your hair cut is silly and unnecessary", and being dead serious about it.


-Kye

 

[mugwhump]

Don't worry Synikal, we still like you

Actually, most people who have had the import already know this and still think the game is bad.

I have the import and I think the game is delicious

 

[g-regulate]

a mazing

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Alright, any more testing on Aerial Canceling being done?

 

[Fastest]

Don't worry Synikal, we still like you


I have the import and I think the game is delicious

Who are you?

Oh wait, nobody.

 

[VersatileBJN]

a mazing

amazing how you ignored our questions on page 7 = /

 

[Magus420]

For the people that still don't understand the difference between landing after an attack finishes to receive no landlag and autocancelling...

Autocancelling is the windows before/after an attack hits where if you land during this time you get the normal landing animation instead of the attack's landlag animation (as if you landed without doing an attack at all).


For example, Peach's f-air in Brawl will autocancel if you land at pretty much any point that isn't mid-swing...

Also, there is no float cancelling in Brawl.


(The full length of the f-air normally, and then another one landing before the swing and is autocancelled)

(Landing just after the swing ends and is autocancelled)

(Landing mid-swing and getting the attack's lag)

As you can see, Peach doesn't even come close to completing the f-air before landing in the 2nd clip and still doesn't get the attack's landlag. She just gets the standard air to ground landlag which is most likely somewhere around 4 frames (1/15th of a second). While Peach's f-air may be a bit of an extreme example it does make it very obvious with how early you can land before the end of that move and have it autocancel.

The attack is cancelled early and you instead do a normal landing. This is autocancelling.

 

[I.T.P]

the problem was our terminology, basically if the hitbox isn't out yet, or is allready finished, 99% of the cases the move will do the so called "auto cancel" because the game looks at hitboxes, and not at animations.

this has been true for the majority of the long lag moves since SSB64 as far as I know, if you land after the hitbox, it counts as landing normally, if you land before the hitbox, some moves(not all) will auto cancel the actual move and count it as normal landing.

did I get your point across?