Allow me to propose a new way to metagame.

[Shadow Light Master]

Allow me to propose a new way to metagame. My proposition does not suggest that we start breaking up all tournies like this, but I think we can establish a system in which all sorts of characters are used. Brawl is ending up to be less fair than Melee, with Meta Knight and Snake carrying the most tournament wins. When this happens, however, other characters are relegated to the wayside and the fun is diminished. Allow me to propose... Triple-Tiered Tourneys!

So what is it? Basically, tournaments will be grouped into three categories: Top and Very High, High and Middle, and Low and Bottom. T&VH will only allow characters from those tiers and below. H&M will allow characters only from those tiers or below. L&B will allow characters only from those tiers. By organizing them like this, tournaments can suit all different levels of play. I don't see why it is not possible. In the Pokemon metagame we have the same type of rules, with Uber play (with Pokemon like Mewtwo and Darkrai), Over Used play (main competition), Borderline play (for those too weak for OU), Under Used play (for those too weak for BL), and Never Used Play (for the weakest, like Butterfree and Fearow). It has always been our system and it has always served us well.

The idea came to me when I saw Taj fighting Bombsoldier. However, they weren't using their usual high/top tiered mains, they were using Mewtwo and Mr. Game & Watch! Seeing them played at such a high level gave me an idea, one which would allow players who main characters lower on the tier list to play at a high tactical level as well. What I am not proposing is that weaker characters should not be admitted to regular tournaments, or that they should get special rulings or whatever. What I am suggesting though, is to create three levels of tournament play, where weaker characters can fight each other with the amount of skill that it takes in a Mr. Game & Watch VS Snake fight. Instead of the characters just getting swamped by top tier tyrants, they can play at the peak of their abilities and stand a fighting chance.

What I'm saying is, let's say there are two Gimpyfish. Gimpyfish A uses Ganondorf. Gimpyfish B uses Bowser. These two Gimpyfish want to play competitively, using all their techs and skills, but they would never stand a chance in regular tournies. So instead, they go to a Low & Bottom Tourney, where they can use any Low Tiered or Bottom Tiered character but nothing above that. That way, the competition stays at a competitive point, and they can play to the fullest of their abilities.

I understand that as of now we have no definitive tier list. It will take about another 7 months before we do have one. But given the lack of technical depth in Brawl that was present in Melee, and after much research done by both those at Smash World Forums and GameFAQs, characters are more or less in their established zones and their placement only varies within those zones, generally speaking (Toon Link varies from High to Very High sometimes). I suggest we use Longhornfan's build as the guidelines to character admissions. It is the most revised, spanning multiple editions, and is the most accurate tier list on all of GameFAQs.

Longhornfan's Tier List:

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco

Very High Tier:
R.O.B.
Pikachu
King Dedede
Zelda
Pit
Toon Link

High Tier:
Wario
Olimar
Wolf
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Diddy Kong

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Fox
Kirby
ZSS
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Ness
Sheik

Low tier :
Bowser
Sonic
Ike
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Link
Jigglypuff
Samus
Captain Falcon

I heard something similar happened to Melee with Lavatron or something along the lines of that, so it'd be great IMO to see something similar.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I like this idea. Pity that all the Sirlingroupies won't agree with you.

 

[tEhrXXz0r]

haha I see your user name often on the Pokemon Emerald and Diamond boards on GameFAQs lol

It's an interesting alternative, but I'd assume it would be frustrating for the tournament hosters to organize =/

 

[Kitamerby]

New tier list idea:

Top: Snake
Almost-Top: MK
High: Everyone but MK & Snake
Middle: N/A
Low: N/A
Bottom: Captain Falcon.

EVERYONE WINS! :D

But seriously, this is a silly idea. It SOUNDS good on paper, but basically it's just punishing people for their mains. It basically states that if I want to main Pokemon Trainer, then I have to go to my own little tourney setting for all the weaker players who can't compete with the tippy top.

Also, how do you define the split? In groups of 10? Groups of 15? Also, you gotta wonder, is it REALLY such a good thing to split it up like this? If you think about it, if you DO go about it this way, they'll create their own little mini-tier lists. Some characters do great against everyone but the top tiers. Take them out, and they BECOME the top tier. Suddenly, all tournament goers for the low tier tournaments use only Link, Ike, or Jigglypuff instead of Snake, Meta Knight, and ROB.


Also, that tier list sucks majorly.

 

[Talvi]

In melee there are Low Tier tournaments, and there will be too for Brawl once there is a Tier list. Just have patience

 

[MookieRah]

When this happens, however, other characters are relegated to the wayside and the fun is diminished.

Sorry yo, but tournaments aren't about fun, they are about competing to see who is best. It just so happens that they are a lot of fun.

Regardless of what anyone says about the "brokenness" of Brawl, there are a lot of tournament viable characters, as many if not more than Melee.

What I am suggesting though, is to create three levels of tournament play, where weaker characters can fight each other with the amount of skill that it takes in a Mr. Game & Watch VS Snake fight. Instead of the characters just getting swamped by top tier tyrants, they can play at the peak of their abilities and stand a fighting chance.

Ever hear of a low tier tournament? They happened all the time in Melee. They were usually a mini tourny before the big event. The problem with them was there wasn't enough time to do teams and singles towards the later part of Melee's tournament scene. Brawl is the same way. Your idea is even worse, as it divides things up into 3 parts instead of 2. Do you honestly know how long it takes to run a good tournament?

 

[Crow!]

What talvi said. Don't worry, I'm sure there will be tier-restricted tournaments, just like there were before. It's just that we're going to have to wait until there IS a tier list before we can do that.

And I'm going to have to disagree with Kitamerby and say that your list is for the most part not all that far off. There are a couple characters that stand out as being significantly misplaced, however. I think the best, most objective ranking we have so far can be found here.

 

[Jewdo]

Yeah.... the most objective tier list is [here]. Ankoku bases his tier list on the hard data of tourney winnings. No subjective opinions, just the characters' actual performance, so I would go out and say it's also the most accurate.

 

[DanGR]

great idea, but everyone who mains snake and mk disagree, and tourney hosts are too scared to do this.

 

[fkacyan]

This effectively diminishes the perceived skill of anybody who could win with a low tier character if this is forced onto the tourney scene.

Yeah.... the most objective tier list is [here]. Ankoku bases his tier list on the hard data of tourney winnings. No subjective opinions, just the characters' actual performance, so I would go out and say it's also the most accurate.

Doesn't take into account the number of people using the character, which skews the list badly. That said, it is a great tool for making an accurate tier list

 

[mariofanpm12]

The concept is good, and it could work. I think though, that it would end up creating more sub-tiers. Like in the Low and Bottom Group, Bowser and Sonic may be Top-Low, and so on, until it all began again.

 

[Empy]

This is not Pokémon. Snake and Metaknight aren't in the uber = banned tier. Also there is a huge difference in the tier lists as well. In Pokémon, the OU & BL tiers aren't about what Pokémon is stronger, they are about the usage seen for these Pokémon. You claim that BL are too weak for OU, but they aren't. They just aren't used as often. UU are weaker, but NU are the same as UU.

Anyway, I don't think we need this at all. In Pokémon, there is just a limit to what each character can do, mostly based on it's movepool, stats and type. Within that there are plenty of ways to vary, but they are fixed methods. With fixed methods, there it is possible that a character simply can't beat another. Spinda for example, can't beat any of the OU characters. It has an amazing movepool (Wish, Baton Pass, Protect, Calm mind etc..) but it's speed and hp are just so low, even with 252 EV in both it will be death by any hit from any OU.

This is just different from Smash. In Smash, even a Snake player can lose to a Cpt. Falcon. Sure, it won't happen much, but it certainly will happen.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

I actually think this is a good idea, we just need to wait until a proper tier list is out.

Or everyone could learn how to use top tier counters, like DK, Lucario, and stuff like that.

 

[fkacyan]

This is just different from Smash. In Smash, even a Snake player can lose to a Cpt. Falcon. Sure, it won't happen much, but it certainly will happen.

M2k's D3 lost a moneymatch to my friend's C. Falcon.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'll metagame your mom.

Once I, y'know, figure out how to metagame anyone.

But in response to your idea: what MookieRah said.

 

[chckn]

Your proposition reminds me of communism. Looks great on paper but in actuallity is completely rediculous. People play mid/low tier characters not only for the challenge but also for the advantage of surprise. Also, snake and metaknight arent unbeatable -_-, like empty said they are not ubers like in pokemon they just have an advantage. Thats where stage cps and such comes in. Other people are winning tourneys besides snakes and metaknights. You just have to take into account the AMOUNT of people playing snakes and metaknights far exceeds the amount of people playing other characters. Therefore there will be a greater amount of them winning tourneys due to the fact that there are a greater amount of them competing in them.

*edit* also if you impliment your plan, you will have tourneys with like three or four people in each category which=fail.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

How about we wait until the back room comes up with a tier list before we propose the idea of low tier tournaments. Also, low tiers shouldn't be excluded from a regular singles tournament. If you lose to my Jigglypuff when you're playing Snake, you deserve to lose. Doesn't matter if I mained Jigglypuff or used her for fun. And If I were a serious Jigglypuff main I should expect to see lots of Snake players in tournament anyway. Saying "You only beat me because you used Snake!" might be a valid excuse for losing, but it doesn't make his win any less valid. Plus a lot of the lower tiered characters have even or good matchups vs. upper and mid tier characters anyway.

Low tier tournaments are fun, but excluding low tiers from high tier tournaments is just dumb.

 

[_Phloat_]

I propose that before anyone has an idea posted, they must host a tournament of their own..


Good idea, but the time invested just wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Its The Jinks]

In melee there are Low Tier tournaments, and there will be too for Brawl once there is a Tier list. Just have patience

agreed, with no tier list= no types of tier tourneys

 

[acv]

its not impossible for a low tier to beat a high tier.

 

[MookieRah]

I propose that before anyone has an idea posted, they must host a tournament of their own..
Good idea, but the time invested just wouldn't be worth it.

I tried to convey that message on the first page, but it was adequately ignored. The people who want this sort of thing are the very people that will more than likely never host a tournament.

 

[chic]

It's my goal to become good enough to beat meta/snake in tournaments with my luigi

 

[Demon_Fox]

Basically the idea isn't that bad. But in the end every character is different and there are also counter picks and advantage/disadvantages within each of the three suggested Tier Groups. Therefore you would have to make tournaments MK-only, Snake-only,....

 

[J0RDY]

But given the lack of technical depth in Brawl that was present in Melee

Give it time.

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Low tier tourneys should especially be in brawl too. I find Brawl is less balanced.

That list is on GameFAQs. You should try and look at the tier disscussion here. Its 100x better. Look for a good list and use a few and come up with your own. Dont make a topic unless you take the time to make it good.

 

[Tomato Kirby]

So I would have to main several characters? What about my practice of Kirby against top-tier characters? This is limiting the meta-game: less knowledge and opportunities.

 

[MookieRah]

That list is on GameFAQs. You should try and look at the tier disscussion here. Its 100x better. Look for a good list and use a few and come up with your own. Dont make a topic unless you take the time to make it good.

LOL @ tier discussion being 100x better on GFaqs.

What about my practice of Kirby against top-tier characters? This is limiting the meta-game: less knowledge and opportunities.

Even though I don't agree with the guy who made the post, he specifically said that you could use a lower tiered character in one of the higher tiered tournaments. At least read the argument enough that you understand it before discussing.

 

[Ayaz18]

this would make tournies easier for me, it would be more fair but i highly doubt anyone will do this

 

[Crizthakidd]

when i read this i remmeber the low and bottom tier tournies in melee where a lot of marios and s would pwn. just that with brawl -_-

 

[Sosuke]

.....lol Gimpyyfish A and B.
There can only be one!!
But idk this could be an idea to use in SOME tournies, or when Snake and MK rule the world.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Sorry I've been gone, I haven't been able to get on.

To the Smash Director, I'm sorry I didn't remember your name - you're saying that I'm forcing exclusion, this is not a forced exclusion. If you want you can use Jigglypuff versus Snake in T&VH, but if you want you can also compete against other people in your tier.

I realize the other quip you people are having is that this just creates sub-tiers and punishes people for their mains. That is not the case. As I said, you can use lower tier characters in higher tier fights, but that's your choice. As far as people just picking the best in that tier, as in Sonic because he'd be in "Top-Low" - that's simply not true. Does everyone main Snake and Meta Knight because they're high tier? No.

The problem is is that the gap between Snake and Metaknight and most of the cast is that the gap is just too huge. The loss of many advanced techniques gives these fighters less of a chance. By doing a tourney like this you don't have to worry about being uber-pwned by a skilled Snake even though you're a skilled Jigglypuff. But if you're a skilled Jigglypuff and want to fight Snake, you're welcome to do that too.

EDIT: Never mention GameFAQs again. As someone who grew up there, it pains me to say this, but when I made this topic there it if only got about 30 posts and died without hardly any discussion. Smashboards is the only place where you can get legitimate responses.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Give it time.

I understand you're trying to be optimistic, but this game has been torn apart by the best of the best, and there really is no hope. Gimpy was the poster child for the "hope" movement, and even he gave up on it.

 

[Kitamerby]

Let's ban Yoshi. No more complaints about top and bottom tier gaps. Nobody important mains him, anyways.



The point is that you can't tell a game's entire future after only 4 months of shelf life. o,O

Hell, those people who were "optimistic" gave up in the first few weeks. How optimistic were they, really?

 

[rayecho]

This idea sounds really bad. If some players use low tier characters, they shouldn't get special treatment for

it, instead they should have to work harder in order to keep up with the top players.

 

[The Real Inferno]

*skips everything but the OP out of laziness*

So you want it to be like Pokemon then? Wait does that mean we get to BAN Snake and Metaknight for being Ubertier then?

 

[Plum]

This is not Pokémon. Snake and Metaknight aren't in the uber = banned tier. Also there is a huge difference in the tier lists as well. In Pokémon, the OU & BL tiers aren't about what Pokémon is stronger, they are about the usage seen for these Pokémon. You claim that BL are too weak for OU, but they aren't. They just aren't used as often. UU are weaker, but NU are the same as UU.

Anyway, I don't think we need this at all. In Pokémon, there is just a limit to what each character can do, mostly based on it's movepool, stats and type. Within that there are plenty of ways to vary, but they are fixed methods. With fixed methods, there it is possible that a character simply can't beat another. Spinda for example, can't beat any of the OU characters. It has an amazing movepool (Wish, Baton Pass, Protect, Calm mind etc..) but it's speed and hp are just so low, even with 252 EV in both it will be death by any hit from any OU.

This may just be me, or did these statements contradict one another? This is way off topic for me to be saying this, but you stated that the Pokemon rankings aren't about who is stronger, but then in the next paragraph stated that Spinda is going to get owned by an over used. Pokemon do have rankings. Even an OU is rarely going to beat a Wobbafet. In fact, little can beat Wobbafet. It is an uber because it is in fact too good.

But to be on topic, if something like this was ever adopted, I think it would be good to allow lower tiered characters into higher tournaments. That way lower tiers can compete with high, because a godly Yoshi shouldn't be limited on who he fights. Unfortunately this just makes it the same thing Melee was like, so I suppose the idea is negated. Any character can play in any tournament, but low tiered tournaments are held to give weak characters a chance to shine instead of getting knocked out early by Metaknight or someone of the like. The idea sounds good, but I doubt it would work.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Um yeah, I was still playing Pokemon religiously when we were setting up the tier list at Smogon and it -is- based entirely on power. BL represents pokemon that for the most part serve the same functions as OU pokemon, but ar either slightly worse or just less popular. All other tiers are based on stats and movepools, not popularity.

 

[manhunter098]

Well it will happen in due time. Just as everyone has already pointed out that it happened with Melee. That said I totally disagree with your tier list, since its just your opinion and not based on actual tournament result data, which are how tier lists are formed.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

BUMP for more discussion.

Also, that is no longer the tier list I go by. Of course, you couldn't have known that.


EDIT: Also, it's not mine.

 

[Samuelson]

I think that your idea will happen in time.